"Nikki Casali" wrote in message
...


Scott wrote:
snip

Also i guess I should mention I haven't done any water changes yet, and
going by my water results I don't think thats an issue. When the time
comes to do a water change what is the best way to do this? Do I need
to buy another heater to get the tempature right, or just play with hot
and cold tap and a thermometer?

You're asking these questions as if there will be a definitive and
agreed-upon answer to them all ;~). Many opinions vary, but imo,
generally for municipal water, you can just play with the taps and
dechlorinate in the tank. Gravel vacuum with some type of pipe with
suction (look at how the Python works), and don't vacuum under plants.
For
the average person, there isn't any chemical clues as to how often the
water needs to be partially changed. We sometimes go by nitrate levels,
but planted tanks can keep the NO3 level at zero. Typically then, try
to
do about 20% water change per week. It is to thin out many things which
you cannot neccesarily measure.



That is a question that I have hassled with since I bought my Python
aquarium cleaning setup. I am still adding water to the fish tanks by
filling a bucket by the tank with the hose and adding the de-chlorinator
to
that, then dumping into the tank. So it IS OK to add the chems to the
tank
and then fill with the hose from the tap??

Personally, I'm not very comfortable with idea. Dumping the
dechlorinator directly into the tank means that it will be diluted 10
times - 10% water change. That could mean it takes 10 times longer to
neutralise the chlorine doing damamge in the meantime. But that's purely
a guess.

Nikki

I must admit that the only thing I am comfortable with is removing the water
and then replacing it with water in buckets - already treated for
chlorine/chloramine and brought up to temp using boiled water - I don't
trust the water from the hot tap because the hot water tank is copper as is
all the piping.

"Gill Passman" gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk wrote in message
.. .

"Nikki Casali" wrote in message
...


Scott wrote:
snip

Also i guess I should mention I haven't done any water changes yet,
and
going by my water results I don't think thats an issue. When the
time
comes to do a water change what is the best way to do this? Do I
need
to buy another heater to get the tempature right, or just play with
hot
and cold tap and a thermometer?

You're asking these questions as if there will be a definitive and
agreed-upon answer to them all ;~). Many opinions vary, but imo,
generally for municipal water, you can just play with the taps and
dechlorinate in the tank. Gravel vacuum with some type of pipe with
suction (look at how the Python works), and don't vacuum under
plants.
For
the average person, there isn't any chemical clues as to how often
the
water needs to be partially changed. We sometimes go by nitrate
levels,
but planted tanks can keep the NO3 level at zero. Typically then,
try
to
do about 20% water change per week. It is to thin out many things
which
you cannot neccesarily measure.



That is a question that I have hassled with since I bought my Python
aquarium cleaning setup. I am still adding water to the fish tanks
by
filling a bucket by the tank with the hose and adding the
de-chlorinator
to
that, then dumping into the tank. So it IS OK to add the chems to
the
tank
and then fill with the hose from the tap??

Personally, I'm not very comfortable with idea. Dumping the
dechlorinator directly into the tank means that it will be diluted 10
times - 10% water change. That could mean it takes 10 times longer to
neutralise the chlorine doing damamge in the meantime. But that's
purely
a guess.

Nikki

I must admit that the only thing I am comfortable with is removing the
water
and then replacing it with water in buckets - already treated for
chlorine/chloramine and brought up to temp using boiled water - I don't
trust the water from the hot tap because the hot water tank is copper
as is
all the piping.


Our water change system was automated, but not our gravel vacuuming ;~),
so the drill was to do about 1 bank of tanks at a time (about 180g, and
30 to 50% water change) and then go around squirting de-chlorinator in,
and then refill them all with temperature-adjusted tap water. The store
was new (new hot water tank, new copper plumbing), the municipality was
new (chloramines around 2.5ppm), the water changes were relatively large
(up to 50%), and the fish were almost every type imaginable in the trade
(including the more delicate types). I think that's a worst-case
scenario (compared to a home tank) and we never observed any problems
with this procedure. ymmv

In another case, I treated a 60g tank of Tiger barbs with very aggressive
water changes (about 90% twice a day) using the same procedure above (I
was slowing down the advancement of a disease to give the antibiotics a
chance to work). They were cured, and even in their stressed condition I
couldn't attribute any losses to the water change method. ymmv
--
www.NetMax.tk

"Nikki Casali" wrote in message
...


Scott wrote:
snip

Also i guess I should mention I haven't done any water changes yet, and
going by my water results I don't think thats an issue. When the time
comes to do a water change what is the best way to do this? Do I need
to buy another heater to get the tempature right, or just play with hot
and cold tap and a thermometer?

You're asking these questions as if there will be a definitive and
agreed-upon answer to them all ;~). Many opinions vary, but imo,
generally for municipal water, you can just play with the taps and
dechlorinate in the tank. Gravel vacuum with some type of pipe with
suction (look at how the Python works), and don't vacuum under plants.
For the average person, there isn't any chemical clues as to how often
the water needs to be partially changed. We sometimes go by nitrate
levels, but planted tanks can keep the NO3 level at zero. Typically
then, try to do about 20% water change per week. It is to thin out many
things which you cannot neccesarily measure.



That is a question that I have hassled with since I bought my Python
aquarium cleaning setup. I am still adding water to the fish tanks by
filling a bucket by the tank with the hose and adding the de-chlorinator
to that, then dumping into the tank. So it IS OK to add the chems to the
tank and then fill with the hose from the tap??

Personally, I'm not very comfortable with idea. Dumping the dechlorinator
directly into the tank means that it will be diluted 10 times - 10% water
change. That could mean it takes 10 times longer to neutralise the
chlorine doing damamge in the meantime. But that's purely a guess.

Nikki


That was the issue I was wrestling with - the dilution of the chems to
neutralise chlorine. I would not necessarily agree with it taking 10 times
longer to take effect, though that it not outside of the range of
speculation. Maybe adding the dechlorinator to the tank and allowing time
for circulation vis-a-vis the filter itself would be wiser, then adding the
water from the tap?? I have no qualms with following the advice of NetMax
from my lurking on the newsgroup for several weeks, but I wonder about any
residual effects from stray amounts of chlorine or chloramine that do not
get neutralized immediately. Obviously if you dump anything into a pool of
water, it will take time to distribute evenly, IHMO.

OTOH, since two of the more more prolific posters, and the ones that seem to
have the most knowledge on keeping fish tanks seem to agree on this - I
think I will go along. It will sure save my back some strain!!

---scott

"Scott" smaxell1{at}hotmail.com wrote in message
...

"Nikki Casali" wrote in message
...


Scott wrote:
snip

Also i guess I should mention I haven't done any water changes yet,
and
going by my water results I don't think thats an issue. When the
time
comes to do a water change what is the best way to do this? Do I
need
to buy another heater to get the tempature right, or just play with
hot
and cold tap and a thermometer?

You're asking these questions as if there will be a definitive and
agreed-upon answer to them all ;~). Many opinions vary, but imo,
generally for municipal water, you can just play with the taps and
dechlorinate in the tank. Gravel vacuum with some type of pipe with
suction (look at how the Python works), and don't vacuum under
plants. For the average person, there isn't any chemical clues as to
how often the water needs to be partially changed. We sometimes go
by nitrate levels, but planted tanks can keep the NO3 level at zero.
Typically then, try to do about 20% water change per week. It is to
thin out many things which you cannot neccesarily measure.



That is a question that I have hassled with since I bought my Python
aquarium cleaning setup. I am still adding water to the fish tanks by
filling a bucket by the tank with the hose and adding the
de-chlorinator to that, then dumping into the tank. So it IS OK to
add the chems to the tank and then fill with the hose from the tap??

Personally, I'm not very comfortable with idea. Dumping the
dechlorinator directly into the tank means that it will be diluted 10
times - 10% water change. That could mean it takes 10 times longer to
neutralise the chlorine doing damamge in the meantime. But that's
purely a guess.

Nikki


That was the issue I was wrestling with - the dilution of the chems to
neutralise chlorine. I would not necessarily agree with it taking 10
times longer to take effect, though that it not outside of the range of
speculation. Maybe adding the dechlorinator to the tank and allowing
time for circulation vis-a-vis the filter itself would be wiser, then
adding the water from the tap?? I have no qualms with following the
advice of NetMax from my lurking on the newsgroup for several weeks,
but I wonder about any residual effects from stray amounts of chlorine
or chloramine that do not get neutralized immediately. Obviously if you
dump anything into a pool of water, it will take time to distribute
evenly, IHMO.

OTOH, since two of the more more prolific posters, and the ones that
seem to have the most knowledge on keeping fish tanks seem to agree on
this - I think I will go along. It will sure save my back some strain!!

---scott


Generally, we can only report our observations, but I did ask Hagen's
'fish expert' on this one when he did a store tour. He indicated that it
takes less than 10 minutes to detoxify chlorinated or chloramined water
with their product (and he didn't indicate that there was any time
difference with other manufacturer's products). He recommended adding
the de-chlor to the tank leaving the filters running (to evenly
distribute the active molecules). These molecules stay active for a long
period of time (this may vary by recipe, but it is hours+), and will
simply float around until they bump into a chlorine/chloramine molecule.
The proportion/concentration used in their directions ensures that the
de-toxifying molecules significantly outnumber the amount of
chlorine/chloramine molecules which could be encountered, and there will
always be an excess of these de-toxifying molecules remaining.

I then asked "if these active molecules were persistent and outnumbered
the chlorinated/chloramined molecules, what affect would these molecules
have on the fish". He replied "based on lab tests, they are confident
that there is no negative effects up to the overdose test levels, which
were a factor of ten".

In case you think this fellow was just a 'mouthpiece' for a manufacturer,
he then went on to tell me all about his most recent trip through Lake
Malawi collecting cichlids. Now that's a job I could handle :o)
--
www.NetMax.tk

"NetMax" wrote in message
.. .
Generally, we can only report our observations, but I did ask Hagen's
'fish expert' on this one when he did a store tour. He indicated that it
takes less than 10 minutes to detoxify chlorinated or chloramined water
with their product (and he didn't indicate that there was any time
difference with other manufacturer's products). He recommended adding
the de-chlor to the tank leaving the filters running (to evenly
distribute the active molecules).

I've tried TetraAqua's AquaSafe and currently use Seachem's Prime, and I
usually add it to a bucket of water and let it age overnight.
The next day, there are many bubbles at the bottom and along the interior
sides of the pail of water.
I stir up the water to drive those bubbles out, before using the water in my
tank.
What are those bubbles? O2? CO2? NH3/4?

I figure if I added the de-chlor directly into the tank with water straight
from the tap, all those bubbles would be liberated into my fish tank water
over time, which may not be a good thing.

"Gfishery" wrote in message
eenews.net...

"NetMax" wrote in message
.. .
Generally, we can only report our observations, but I did ask Hagen's
'fish expert' on this one when he did a store tour. He indicated that
it
takes less than 10 minutes to detoxify chlorinated or chloramined
water
with their product (and he didn't indicate that there was any time
difference with other manufacturer's products). He recommended adding
the de-chlor to the tank leaving the filters running (to evenly
distribute the active molecules).

I've tried TetraAqua's AquaSafe and currently use Seachem's Prime, and
I
usually add it to a bucket of water and let it age overnight.
The next day, there are many bubbles at the bottom and along the
interior
sides of the pail of water.
I stir up the water to drive those bubbles out, before using the water
in my
tank.
What are those bubbles? O2? CO2? NH3/4?

I figure if I added the de-chlor directly into the tank with water
straight
from the tap, all those bubbles would be liberated into my fish tank
water
over time, which may not be a good thing.


Repeat exactly what you do without adding dechlorinator to see if the
bubbles occur again. Water with dissolved gases will always give you the
layer of bubbles described, so that might be it. Otherwise I don't know.
--
www.NetMax.tk

Gfishery wrote:
"NetMax" wrote in message
.. .

Generally, we can only report our observations, but I did ask Hagen's
'fish expert' on this one when he did a store tour. He indicated that it
takes less than 10 minutes to detoxify chlorinated or chloramined water
with their product (and he didn't indicate that there was any time
difference with other manufacturer's products). He recommended adding
the de-chlor to the tank leaving the filters running (to evenly
distribute the active molecules).


I've tried TetraAqua's AquaSafe and currently use Seachem's Prime, and I
usually add it to a bucket of water and let it age overnight.
The next day, there are many bubbles at the bottom and along the interior
sides of the pail of water.
I stir up the water to drive those bubbles out, before using the water in my
tank.
What are those bubbles? O2? CO2? NH3/4?

I figure if I added the de-chlor directly into the tank with water straight
from the tap, all those bubbles would be liberated into my fish tank water
over time, which may not be a good thing.


Air. Your tapwater is cold, so gas solubility is high, and most taps
have a screen aerator that drives a lot of gasses into it. Dissolved
air makes tapwater taste better to most people. As the water warms to
room temperature overnight, dissolved air comes out and bubbles form on
the sides of the pail. If you add heavily aerated cold tap water
directly to the tank, it is possible for your fish to get a nasty
condition called gas bubble disease where gas bubbles form in their skin
and fins. I've never actually seen it happen.

All you need to do to avoid trouble is warm your tap water up to tank
water temps before filling the tank from the tap. Then the gas
solubility is the same. If you can't match temperatures for some
reason, you can also let the water splash into the tank from a few
inches height rather than holding the hose below the surface to drive
off dissolved gasses. Good aeration in the tank will usually work as well.

--
__ Elaine T __
__' http://eethomp.com/fish.html '__
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

"Elaine T" wrote in message
m...
Gfishery wrote:
"NetMax" wrote in message
.. .

Generally, we can only report our observations, but I did ask Hagen's
'fish expert' on this one when he did a store tour. He indicated that
it
takes less than 10 minutes to detoxify chlorinated or chloramined
water
with their product (and he didn't indicate that there was any time
difference with other manufacturer's products). He recommended adding
the de-chlor to the tank leaving the filters running (to evenly
distribute the active molecules).


I've tried TetraAqua's AquaSafe and currently use Seachem's Prime, and
I
usually add it to a bucket of water and let it age overnight.
The next day, there are many bubbles at the bottom and along the
interior
sides of the pail of water.
I stir up the water to drive those bubbles out, before using the water
in my
tank.
What are those bubbles? O2? CO2? NH3/4?

I figure if I added the de-chlor directly into the tank with water
straight
from the tap, all those bubbles would be liberated into my fish tank
water
over time, which may not be a good thing.


Air. Your tapwater is cold, so gas solubility is high, and most taps
have a screen aerator that drives a lot of gasses into it. Dissolved
air makes tapwater taste better to most people. As the water warms to
room temperature overnight, dissolved air comes out and bubbles form on
the sides of the pail. If you add heavily aerated cold tap water
directly to the tank, it is possible for your fish to get a nasty
condition called gas bubble disease where gas bubbles form in their
skin and fins. I've never actually seen it happen.

All you need to do to avoid trouble is warm your tap water up to tank
water temps before filling the tank from the tap. Then the gas
solubility is the same. If you can't match temperatures for some
reason, you can also let the water splash into the tank from a few
inches height rather than holding the hose below the surface to drive
off dissolved gasses. Good aeration in the tank will usually work as
well.

--
__ Elaine T __


I wouldn't expect my warm water to be in equilibrium with the atmosphere,
but my water source is a deep well and I don't know where the hot water
would have been able to outgas.
--
www.NetMax.tk

Maybe I'm missing something here.
We don't want dissolved gases/air in our new water for the fish tank, but we
want aeration in the fish tank (for more air in the fish tank water)??

The following is probably not a good idea, but if I wanted more O2 in the
water, why not add some Hydrogen Peroxide to the water?
If I wanted more CO2 in the water, why not add a small cube of dry-ice to
the water?

In article .net,
Gfishery wrote:

Maybe I'm missing something here.
We don't want dissolved gases/air in our new water for the fish tank, but we
want aeration in the fish tank (for more air in the fish tank water)??

I missed that part of the thread, but...


The following is probably not a good idea, but if I wanted more O2 in the
water, why not add some Hydrogen Peroxide to the water?

You don't want to drink it, and neither do your fish. Not recommended.

If I wanted more CO2 in the water, why not add a small cube of dry-ice to
the water?

Creates local cold spots, probably would overdose it (as there is a LOT
of CO2 in even a small block of dry ice) There are other ways to
increase CO2/carbonate if you need it - isn't the CO2 mostly for if you
have live plants?