"Pszemol" wrote in message
...
"George" wrote in message
news:2599e.1229$r53.744@attbi_s21...
And this is another strange thing in your description.
DI water SHOULD have the same issues as RO or distilled water.
Real DI water should be even cleaner than RO water, so it should
be even more easy to change its pH with CO2 introduction...
If you never noticed low pH of your DI water I would bet it was not very
pure water...

DI resins remove dissolved gases like CO2, so you shouldn't see
the same level of pH drop you see with RO. That was my point.

After couple of hours of aeration the concentration of CO2 in the
water will be in equilibrium, regardless of the water origins...

Again my point is that DI water removes CO2, regardless of equilibrium
conditions afterwards. I do understand the meaning of equilibrium. What I'm
trying to say is that with my DI unit, I never had low pH with my make up water,
so I am reasonably certain that the CO2 is not coming from the air in my house.
It has to be in the water. Considering that Iive in a region that has lots of
carbonate rocks, the feed water is likely the source of the CO2, not the air in
my house.

DI or RO water should have the same pH at this point, if equally pure.

Ok, back to the aeration bit. I've been aerating the water I made up yesterday.
Before I aerated the water, it had a pH of 4.5, as I mentioned before. It has
now been nearly 12 hours and the pH is only 6.0. So for me, it is going to take
a longer period of time to aerate the water. This is in line with what was
suggested at the link I provided earlier.

DI water tends to be cleaner than an average RO water, so the pH
of DI water would be lower than pH of RO water, but - again - it does
not matter at all.

I don't know how I can say it any clearer. DI units remove dissolved gases like
chlorine and CO2, so the pH will not be as low as it will with RO, which doesn't
remove CO2.

Yes. But if you have a lot of CO2 in your indoor air (humans, pets, etc)
the equilibrium after aerating will be on the higher levels of CO2 in the
water, which translates to lower pH levels of the pure water.

Not much I could do about that, since my tank is in the basement.

And this could be the most important reason for your low pH 7.5.
High concentration of CO2 in the ambient air will cause high
concentration of CO2 in the tank water. To increase ventilation
of the fish room is the only way to cope with this issue...
The same high concentration of CO2 causes problems in my tank.

I would tend to agree except that I didn't have this pH problem when I was using
the DI water, so I really don't think CO2 in my basement is the issue at all.

Sigh. Because I didn't realize that RO membranes allowed CO2 to pass
through. CO2 not only lowers pH, but promotes algae growth. When I saw the
low pH levels in my tank (which, in 14 years of running, I've seen it maybe
twice), I decided to test the make up water.

I do not care how much CO2 does RO stop/pass - since I am not using
RO water right from the filter but aerate it in an open bucket...

After couple of hours of aerating, the level of CO2 in solution will reach
equilibrium with the ambient CO2 levels.

With aeration, yes.

Without aeration the same. But it just take a little longer.

Well, after four days with no aeration, the pH was 5.0. That bothers me, if
for no other reason than it makes me wonder what the CO2 levels are in my
basement.

You can simply find out using some CO2 meter - like this one:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tem=4374263171

I've got access to a Drager air sampler, so I will see if I can borrow it, but I
really don't think that CO2 in the air in my house is the problem, but we'll
see:

http://www.envisupply.com/rentals/in...AirSampler.htm

You could even think of running automated ventilation system
based on your CO2 level in the basement air :-)
Of course it would influence your whole house ventilation as well.

Sorry. I like my aquarium, but not that much.

Yeah, I'll do that as soon as I pay off my car! I used to have access to a
really good probe when I worked at an Environmental Engineering firm here in
town. But since I've been working at another firm out of town, I don't have
that access (this firm doesn't have as much equiptment as the other one did).

You do not need state of the art meter... $50 one would be fine.
I got some used one from eBay made by Thermo Orion about 10 years ago.
Excellent condition, fully automatic, two channels (if you like to
monitor ORP levels as well) fluorescent blue display nicely visible
at night, AC powered - highly recommend: Thermo Orion 525A.

Good luck with your tank. Keep us posted how is it going with pH...

Since I work in environmental consulting, I've used a lot of different meters.
If I am going to buy one (which may be a while before I do), I'll likely buy one
like this one:

http://www.coleparmer.com/catalog/pr...=&lstBool=true

Hi George,
Your problems are in no way related to the use of RO or DI or
RO/DI water for evaporation top of, a PH of between 4 and 5 is quite
normal for an efficient RO/DI unit, commercially produced RO/DI water
has a buffer added to it as the law in most countrys requires drinking
water to be not less than neutral i.e. PH 7.0. My 300g system has an
evaporation rate of 20 litres per day which is replaced daily with
RO/DI water at PH 5, taken before the buffer is added (we have a
commercial RO/DI water plant in the family), my PH is constant at 8.3
or 8.4 in all my tanks, I do occasionally add 'Kalk' to my top of water
as as when it is necessary. Your problem is in your tank water, as has
already been stated and you should know evaporation does not remove
buffers or anything else. (leaks will though !!). For someone claiming
to have done a 2 year chemistry course and hold a masters degree in
Hydro geology and was it 30 odd years in the hobby? you are not talking
much sense, a lot of your statements are 'iffy' to put it mildly.
regards,
unclenorm.


George wrote:
"Pszemol" wrote in message
...
"George" wrote in message
news:2599e.1229$r53.744@attbi_s21...
And this is another strange thing in your description.
DI water SHOULD have the same issues as RO or distilled water.
Real DI water should be even cleaner than RO water, so it should
be even more easy to change its pH with CO2 introduction...
If you never noticed low pH of your DI water I would bet it was
not very
pure water...

DI resins remove dissolved gases like CO2, so you shouldn't see
the same level of pH drop you see with RO. That was my point.

After couple of hours of aeration the concentration of CO2 in the
water will be in equilibrium, regardless of the water origins...

Again my point is that DI water removes CO2, regardless of
equilibrium
conditions afterwards. I do understand the meaning of equilibrium.
What I'm
trying to say is that with my DI unit, I never had low pH with my
make up water,
so I am reasonably certain that the CO2 is not coming from the air in
my house.
It has to be in the water. Considering that Iive in a region that
has lots of
carbonate rocks, the feed water is likely the source of the CO2, not
the air in
my house.

DI or RO water should have the same pH at this point, if equally
pure.

Ok, back to the aeration bit. I've been aerating the water I made up
yesterday.
Before I aerated the water, it had a pH of 4.5, as I mentioned
before. It has
now been nearly 12 hours and the pH is only 6.0. So for me, it is
going to take
a longer period of time to aerate the water. This is in line with
what was
suggested at the link I provided earlier.

DI water tends to be cleaner than an average RO water, so the pH
of DI water would be lower than pH of RO water, but - again - it
does
not matter at all.

I don't know how I can say it any clearer. DI units remove dissolved
gases like
chlorine and CO2, so the pH will not be as low as it will with RO,
which doesn't
remove CO2.

Yes. But if you have a lot of CO2 in your indoor air (humans,
pets, etc)
the equilibrium after aerating will be on the higher levels of
CO2 in the
water, which translates to lower pH levels of the pure water.

Not much I could do about that, since my tank is in the basement.

And this could be the most important reason for your low pH 7.5.
High concentration of CO2 in the ambient air will cause high
concentration of CO2 in the tank water. To increase ventilation
of the fish room is the only way to cope with this issue...
The same high concentration of CO2 causes problems in my tank.

I would tend to agree except that I didn't have this pH problem when
I was using
the DI water, so I really don't think CO2 in my basement is the issue
at all.

Sigh. Because I didn't realize that RO membranes allowed CO2 to
pass
through. CO2 not only lowers pH, but promotes algae growth. When
I saw the
low pH levels in my tank (which, in 14 years of running, I've seen
it maybe
twice), I decided to test the make up water.

I do not care how much CO2 does RO stop/pass - since I am not using
RO water right from the filter but aerate it in an open bucket...

After couple of hours of aerating, the level of CO2 in solution
will reach
equilibrium with the ambient CO2 levels.

With aeration, yes.

Without aeration the same. But it just take a little longer.

Well, after four days with no aeration, the pH was 5.0. That
bothers me, if
for no other reason than it makes me wonder what the CO2 levels
are in my
basement.

You can simply find out using some CO2 meter - like this one:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tem=4374263171

I've got access to a Drager air sampler, so I will see if I can
borrow it, but I
really don't think that CO2 in the air in my house is the problem,
but we'll
see:

http://www.envisupply.com/rentals/in...AirSampler.htm

You could even think of running automated ventilation system
based on your CO2 level in the basement air :-)
Of course it would influence your whole house ventilation as well.

Sorry. I like my aquarium, but not that much.

Yeah, I'll do that as soon as I pay off my car! I used to have
access to a
really good probe when I worked at an Environmental Engineering
firm here in
town. But since I've been working at another firm out of town, I
don't have
that access (this firm doesn't have as much equiptment as the
other one did).

You do not need state of the art meter... $50 one would be fine.
I got some used one from eBay made by Thermo Orion about 10 years
ago.
Excellent condition, fully automatic, two channels (if you like to
monitor ORP levels as well) fluorescent blue display nicely visible
at night, AC powered - highly recommend: Thermo Orion 525A.

Good luck with your tank. Keep us posted how is it going with pH...

Since I work in environmental consulting, I've used a lot of
different meters.
If I am going to buy one (which may be a while before I do), I'll
likely buy one
like this one:


http://www.coleparmer.com/catalog/pr...=&lstBool=true

"unclenorm" wrote in message
ups.com...
Hi George,
Your problems are in no way related to the use of RO or DI or
RO/DI water for evaporation top of, a PH of between 4 and 5 is quite
normal for an efficient RO/DI unit, commercially produced RO/DI water
has a buffer added to it as the law in most countrys requires drinking
water to be not less than neutral i.e. PH 7.0. My 300g system has an
evaporation rate of 20 litres per day which is replaced daily with
RO/DI water at PH 5, taken before the buffer is added (we have a
commercial RO/DI water plant in the family), my PH is constant at 8.3
or 8.4 in all my tanks, I do occasionally add 'Kalk' to my top of water
as as when it is necessary. Your problem is in your tank water, as has
already been stated and you should know evaporation does not remove
buffers or anything else. (leaks will though !!). For someone claiming
to have done a 2 year chemistry course and hold a masters degree in
Hydro geology and was it 30 odd years in the hobby? you are not talking
much sense, a lot of your statements are 'iffy' to put it mildly.
regards,
unclenorm.


Plants and animals will cause changes in the tanks buffer system, particularly
plants. The buffers don't stay in solution indefinitely, whether there is
evaporation or not. Some of it gets used up. And yes I've been in the aquarium
hobby all of my life, though have only had a salt water tank for 14 years.

George,
That's rather an odd reply from someone with all your
stated experience, while your statement is true the changes are
insignificant and would take along time to show in a salt water system
unlike fresh water.
regards,
unclenorm.
PS. I've been n the hobby for more than 50 years.

"unclenorm" wrote in message
oups.com...
George,
That's rather an odd reply from someone with all your
stated experience, while your statement is true the changes are
insignificant and would take along time to show in a salt water system
unlike fresh water.
regards,
unclenorm.
PS. I've been n the hobby for more than 50 years.

That has been the assumption for a long time by a lot of aquarists. I'm not so
sure that it is insignificant. I guess I'll have to wait and see how things
change in the hobby over the next few years. Remember, things have changed
tremendously over the last few years alone. We are finding things ouot all the
time. I'm still open to the suggestion that it might be insignificant, yet my
own experience suggests that it may not be.

Hi again George,
Here's an example of my experience with
one of my smaller tanks. It's a DIY 111g system :- 68g display with 30g
refugium/13g sump, this system was set up about 3.5 years ago using
RO/DI water, 'Marinium' artificial sea salt and some Sodium Bicarbonate
about days 3,4 and 5 to raise the PH to 8.4 the display has a 3"/3.5"
live sand bed with 140lbs live rock, mostly dead corals in large
pieces, sitting on a 1/2" PVC pipe framework closed loop at the sand
surface, drilled with small holes like a spray bar and fed by a
2000L/hr power head to give good circulation through the live rock. The
display tank has a total flow of 2,560g/hr about 37 tanks per hour made
up of the return pump, the closed loop mentioned above and 3 power
heads, one of which is quite small, 600L/hr it's function is to keep
the 2 overflow bends permanently primed by drawing any air out of the
top of the bends via air line tubing and fitting glued in the highest
points. (fool proof and fail safe). The refugium has a 7" live deep
sand bed. I also have a Jebo quadplex spraying protein skimmer in the
sump processing 2,000L/hr. this system evaporates about 8 to 10Lt per
day depending on the ambient temp. ( today at noon it was 37C (98F) the
tank runs at 29/33C. My top of water is straight RO/DI PH5/6. In 3.5
years I've added very small amounts of Sodium Bicarbonate 3 times and
1.5Kg of salt mix once to make up for salinity lose through salt creep,
I also add Limewater every couple of weeks to repace consumed calcium
and essential elements when required. I do not do water changes because
I don't think they are necessary in a well managed system, ( also the
cost would be prohibitive in my case with my total volume of water).
My water parameters a-
Flow 37 tank
volumes per hour
Temp. 32C
SPG 1.023
(about 35 PPT)
PH 8.4
KH
115mg/L
Ca
430mg/L
Fe Less
than 0.1- more than 0.0mg/L
NH3/NH4 0.0
NO2 0.0
NO3 Less
than 5mg/L
PO4
0.25mg/L
PS. I do use activated carbon for about a week maybe twice a year to
polish the water. Also I have 5W/G lighting via 20,000k MH, 10,000
Fluorescents and O3 actinic's and 10,000K on the refugium on reverse
cycle to stablize the PH.
regards,
unclenorm.

I will look at all this tomorrow if I can. It is a real mess :-)

For now;
George you have allot of things messed up you don't understand. Most is the
misunderstanding of RO/DI pH and what Alk is and means and its relationship or no
relationship to CO2. For starts CO2 has no effect on Ak and vise versa. I don't care if
your alk is 20 meq/ l. If I blow in the water with a straw the pH will crash period. And
you can prove this to yourself. When ever you add a buffer it increases both the alk and
CO2. You CAN NOT measure the pH of RO/D water, there is nothing in the water to measure
the pH. The readings are false, until it has some "salts" in it. Just because your kit
says pH 5 means nothing. There is nothing wrong, if one wishes, to add some buffer to
RO/DI water, for top-off water. Why in gods name would you want to mess with buffers, for
your reasons, with calcium chloride and sodium bicarbonate in top-of water. You would have
to get out the calculator to figure how much of each so it is BALANCED. It would be
smarter to add kalk, a balanced additive. It adds Calcium, removers CO2, phosphates,
produces buffers like HCO3 (bicarbonate) and raises the pH You kill four birds with one
stone.

My background is also geology :-)

--
Boomer

Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum
http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php


Former US Army Bomb Technician (EOD)
Member; IABTI, NATEODA, WEODF, ISEE & IPS

If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up

"Boomer" wrote in message
...
I will look at all this tomorrow if I can. It is a real mess :-)

For now;
George you have allot of things messed up you don't understand. Most is the
misunderstanding of RO/DI pH and what Alk is and means and its relationship or
no
relationship to CO2. For starts CO2 has no effect on Ak and vise versa. I
don't care if
your alk is 20 meq/ l. If I blow in the water with a straw the pH will crash
period. And
you can prove this to yourself. When ever you add a buffer it increases both
the alk and
CO2. You CAN NOT measure the pH of RO/D water, there is nothing in the water
to measure
the pH. The readings are false, until it has some "salts" in it. Just because
your kit
says pH 5 means nothing. There is nothing wrong, if one wishes, to add some
buffer to
RO/DI water, for top-off water. Why in gods name would you want to mess with
buffers, for
your reasons, with calcium chloride and sodium bicarbonate in top-of water.
You would have
to get out the calculator to figure how much of each so it is BALANCED. It
would be
smarter to add kalk, a balanced additive. It adds Calcium, removers CO2,
phosphates,
produces buffers like HCO3 (bicarbonate) and raises the pH You kill four birds
with one
stone.

My background is also geology :-)

--
Boomer



My my, Boomer. You certainly said a lot here. Apparently, you don't understand
what pH is measuring. pH is a measure of the concentration of the H+ ion
relative to OH- ion in solution. It measures nothing else. Your comment that
there is nothing in RO/DI water to measure indicates that you misunderstand what
pH is measuring. If pH cannot be measured in RO/DI water, that would suggest
that it really isn't water, which is totally absurd since water is a solution
containing relative abundences of H+ and OH- ions. Pure water has a pH of 7
because the concentrations of the H+ ion relative to OH- ion are balanced. RO
water removes nearly everything from ther water except dissolved gases like CO2,
which easily pass through the membrane. This is why the pH of RO water is often
much lower than that of pure water. It certainly does have something in it. It
contains dissolved CO2 gas along with H+ and OH- ions. The OH- will combine
with the CO2 to make the water acidic by producing the dibasic acid carbonic
acid (H2CO3), lowering the concentration of free OH- relative to H+ in the
water, and producing a low pH. The measurement is not false. Of course, the
amount of CO2 in the RO water depends on the concentrations of CO2 in the source
water you are using. Apparently, given the absence of buffersin RO water, it
only takes a small amount of CO2 to lower the pH in the RO water.

As for kalk, it is composed of calcium hydroxide. As such, it cannot add the
carbonate ion to your water because carbonate is not in kalkwaser. The OH- in
kalkwaser can combine with CO2 already in the water to produce HCO3- in a
reaction that takes place in the water. This is certainly true. But then the
HCO3- will combine with H+ in the water in a further reaction to make H2CO3
(carbonic acid, which lowers pH). When you add kalkwaser to your water, you are
adding Ca+ and OH-, which is alkaline, and raises alkalinity as well as calcium
concentrations, but will only do so if the concenration of CAOH is high enough
to overcome the generation of H2CO3. On the other hand, Carbonate certainly is
in sodium bicarbonate. If you add calcium chloride and sodium bicarbonate to
your water, your result is calcium carbonate and sodium chloride. Now, in doing
this, you certainly aren't adding enough sodium chloride to the system wo hurt
anything. You are, however adding the needed calcium carbonate, which is what
you are trying to add in the first place.

As I thought I'm dealing with what others thought is an idiot, that does not understand
chemistry at all but thinks he does. You are not the first one to try this. You understand
what pH is but not what entails its analytical measurement. I guess all the chemists I
know with PhD's, Like Dr Randy Holmes Farley and Dr.Craig Bingman who are famous as
chemists not only in their field of chemistry but also in this Hobby are a bunch of
air-heads. No go down and L@@K , if you have the balls, to at the link in my sig and dare
to come there and make these statements. Then of course there is Dr. Frank Milero, a
chemical oceanographer at the Roesentiel School of Marine and Atmospheric Science who
also must be talking out of his butt.

Go to the library, make some phone calls to anyalical labs, that make pH meters and test
kits. Get a source on the web or book on pH measuremnt and ITS CHEMISTRY OF MEASUREMENT,
not what pH issssssssssss

Let me show you how stupid you are


When you add kalkwaser to your water, you are
adding Ca+ and OH-, which is alkaline, and raises alkalinity as well as calcium
concentrations, but will only do so if the concenration of CAOH is high enough
to overcome the generation of H2CO3

Ok, we will go with your ass backwards understanding of the subject

When you add bicarbonate to the water it can do this HCO3 + H --- H2CO3...so how are you
going to "overcome the generation of H2CO3"

For 20 years reefers have been adding kalk to their make-up water to maintain pH, alk and
Ca. I guess you just told a few 100,000 reefers they are all wrong.YOU look at reactions
in a book but DO NOT understand what they hell the mean or are saying. Buy the way YOU may
want to tell some reefers who's RO/DI water is a pH of 8 or 9 that it is a real value. So,
you need to come to our Chem forum and explain that to Dr. Randy Holmes Farley who's RO/DI
pH is 9 !!!!!. Here is some stuff he has written and Craig Bingman. I guess it is all
wrong according to you.. Before you speak again get your fat swelled head out of your ass
AND LEARN SOMETHING

Solving Common Problems

Solving Calcium and Alkalinity Problems
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/nov2002/chem.htm

Low pH: Causes and Cures
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-09/rhf/index.htm

High pH: Causes and Cures
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-03/rhf/index.htm

How to Select a Calcium and Alkalinity Supplementation Scheme
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/feb2003/chem.htm

Phosphorus: Algae's Best Friend
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/iss...pt2002/chem.htm

Nitrate in the Reef Aquarium
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/iss...st2003/chem.htm


Calcium and Alkalinity

When Do Calcium and Alkalinity Demand Not Exactly Balance?
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-12/rhf/index.htm

A Homemade Two-Part Calcium and Alkalinity Additive System
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/iss...il2004/chem.htm

Solving Calcium and Alkalinity Problems
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/nov2002/chem.htm

How to Select a Calcium and Alkalinity Supplementation Scheme
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/feb2003/chem.htm

Limewater (kalkwasser)

What Your Grandmother Never Told You About Lime
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-01/rhf/index.htm

The Self Purification of Limewater (Kalkwasser)
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/may2003/chem.htm

The Degradation of Limewater (Kalkwasser) in Air
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-...ature/index.htm

Magnesium and Strontium in Limewater
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/dec2003/chem.htm

How to Select a Calcium and Alkalinity Supplementation Scheme
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/feb2003/chem.htm

Carbon Dioxide tests
http://web.archive.org/web/20030704...n=&RecordNo=279

Limewater, Acetic Acid and Sand Clumping
http://web.archive.org/web/20030608...n=&RecordNo=181

Calcium and Alkalinity
http://web.archive.org/web/20030608...bio/default.asp

Calculation of Calcium Carbonate Saturation States in Reef Aquaria
http://web.archive.org/web/20030418...bio/default.asp


Calcification Rates in Several Tropical Coral Reef Aquaria
http://web.archive.org/web/20030608...bio/default.asp

Limits To Limewater...Revisited
http://web.archive.org/web/20030618...bio/default.asp

Expanding the Limits of Limewater: Adding Organic Carbon Sources (vinegar)
http://web.archive.org/web/20030418...bio/default.asp


Magnesium Ion Precipitation in Reef Aquaria: A Tempest in a Teapot
http://web.archive.org/web/20030624...bio/default.asp

Magnesium - Part I
http://web.archive.org/web/20030624...bio/default.asp

Magnesium - Part II
http://web.archive.org/web/20030418...bio/default.asp

A Homemade Magnesium Supplement
http://web.archive.org/web/20030624...bio/default.asp

Simulating the Effect of Calcium Chloride and Sodium Bicarbonate Additions on Reef Systems
http://web.archive.org/web/20010210...bio/default.asp

Additional Simulations: The Combined Effect Of Calcium Chloride
/Sodium Bicarbonate Additions And Water Exchanges
http://web.archive.org/web/20030624...bio/default.asp
--
Boomer

Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum
http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php


Former US Army Bomb Technician (EOD)
Member; IABTI, NATEODA, WEODF, ISEE & IPS

If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up

"Boomer" wrote in message
...
As I thought I'm dealing with what others thought is an idiot, that does not
understand
chemistry at all but thinks he does. You are not the first one to try this.
You understand
what pH is but not what entails its analytical measurement. I guess all the
chemists I
know with PhD's, Like Dr Randy Holmes Farley and Dr.Craig Bingman who are
famous as
chemists not only in their field of chemistry but also in this Hobby are a
bunch of
air-heads. No go down and L@@K , if you have the balls, to at the link in my
sig and dare
to come there and make these statements. Then of course there is Dr. Frank
Milero, a
chemical oceanographer at the Roesentiel School of Marine and Atmospheric
Science who
also must be talking out of his butt.

Go to the library, make some phone calls to anyalical labs, that make pH
meters and test
kits. Get a source on the web or book on pH measuremnt and ITS CHEMISTRY OF
MEASUREMENT,
not what pH issssssssssss

Let me show you how stupid you are

Wow, I respond to your post in a rational way and you resort to insults. And
this demonstrates your maturity, how?


When you add kalkwaser to your water, you are
adding Ca+ and OH-, which is alkaline, and raises alkalinity as well as
calcium
concentrations, but will only do so if the concenration of CAOH is high enough
to overcome the generation of H2CO3

Ok, we will go with your ass backwards understanding of the subject

When you add bicarbonate to the water it can do this HCO3 + H --- H2CO3...so
how are you
going to "overcome the generation of H2CO3"


CaCO3 = Ca2+ + CO3-
HCO3 + H --- H2CO3
CaCO3 + 2 H+ = Ca2+ + H2O + CO2
CaCO3 + H2O = Ca2+ + HCO3- + OH-
CaCO3 + H2O + CO2 = Ca2+ + 2HCO3-
Ca(OH)2 + CO2 - CaCO3 + H2O
CaCO3 + H2CO3 --- CaCO3 + H2O + CO2
Ca(OH)2 + H2CO3 --- CaCO3 + 2H2O

Any questions? Did I leave something out?

For 20 years reefers have been adding kalk to their make-up water to maintain
pH, alk and
Ca. I guess you just told a few 100,000 reefers they are all wrong.

No, I simply pointed out that YOU apparently don't understand what pH is
measuring, or what the reactions are that go on in solutions. Whether you PhD
buddies do is a different matter altogether. I see no reason for you to get
insulting over this discussion.

YOU look at reactions
in a book but DO NOT understand what they hell the mean or are saying. Buy the
way YOU may
want to tell some reefers who's RO/DI water is a pH of 8 or 9 that it is a
real value.

I know of no one who is using RO water who is getting a pH of 8-9 from fresh,
unaltered batches. If so, there is something wrong with the RO units they are
using, or there is something in the source water that is getting past the
membranes. It you do, then perhaps you could get that person to come here
him/her self and explain how that is possible. Theoretically at least, DI water
should be neutral since it removes all charged ions from the water.

So, you need to come to our Chem forum and explain that to Dr. Randy Holmes
Farley who's RO/DI
pH is 9 !!!!!. Here is some stuff he has written and Craig Bingman. I guess it
is all
wrong according to you.. Before you speak again get your fat swelled head out
of your ass
AND LEARN SOMETHING

If everyone at the forums you listed is as ill-mannered as you, I see no reason
why I should come to any of those forums and participate in a flame war over
simple chemistry.

snip