On Mon, 05 Sep 2005 19:15:17 GMT, "Spot" wrote:

Barneys first experience with his reflection came when I went to an ATM
machine. He saw his reflection and totally flipped out at the other dog.

So we know he has the ability to recognise reflected images.

Over time he came to understand that this other dog in the glass wasn't mean
and he didn't have to go into attack mode........LOL Brandy never paid much
attention to mirrors or reflections.

Celeste

I remember fooling with my dog and mirrors as a kid. From what I remember
the dog showed interest at first, and then my impression was that he figured
it out and didn't care about it any more. To him it just didn't mean anything
after he figured out that it wasn't real animals. I saw a cat I had do that with
the TV. When it first saw birds on the screen it was very interested, but after
it learned they weren't real it didn't care any more. Birds outside, that it could
see through the window, were a different matter...and it knew about the pet
door too. Not understanding or caring about a mirror certainly doesn't mean
animals have no awareness of themselves imo. The very idea seems absurd.

On Tue, 06 Sep 2005 04:24:40 GMT, Rudy Canoza wrote:

Logic316 wrote:

dh@. wrote:

Question: Has anyone ever managed to get a dog
to understand that it can see its reflection in a mirror,
and if so, did it appear to experience a great revelation
about its own existence at the instant it learned to do so?


At this point, at the risk of getting a bit personal, I have to conclude
that we have a B.S. artist and a troll on our hands who debates more
like a backwoods evangelist than a scientist, appealing to rhetoric and
semantics rather than hard data. DH has pretty much ignored my numerous
posts and the reference URLs which I have provided, and is obstinately
arguing in circles repeating the same questions which I've already
answered.

"DH" is David Harrison. He lives in or near Atlanta,
GA (not in dispute). He is uneducated. He's 46 years
old, maybe 47 by now, and does flunky work. He's a
bible-thumping Southern redneck.

I've read and have little problem with the Koran and the Book of Mormon
as well as the Bible. I've read the Satanic Bible too, and have my opinions
about all of it, like with the animals, and you would disagree with all of it,
like with the animals. But even if you tried to discuss it you couldn't even
get to the first step imo, like with the animals. Your limitations don't make me
feel stupid Goo, but they sure make me wonder how stupid you really are.

On Mon, 05 Sep 2005 23:23:43 -0400, Logic316 wrote:

dh@. wrote:

Question: Has anyone ever managed to get a dog
to understand that it can see its reflection in a mirror,
and if so, did it appear to experience a great revelation
about its own existence at the instant it learned to do so?

At this point, at the risk of getting a bit personal, I have to conclude
that we have a B.S. artist and a troll on our hands

That's because what I say you find absurd, but let me assure you
that what you say seems equally if not more absurd to me. I and other
people I know have been laughing at and ridiculing the idea that
animals have no self awareness, since I was a child watching them
show signs of self awareness. I have considered the idea ignorant,
shallow, but pathetically amusing since the first time I heard it. Now
that I find the idea I already thought of as ignorant, etc, is based on
the non-too-surprising fact that most animals don't understand reflection,
well....of course it just seems that much more ignorant, shallow, and that
much more pathetic instead of amusing.

who debates more
like a backwoods evangelist than a scientist, appealing to rhetoric and
semantics rather than hard data. DH has pretty much ignored my numerous
posts and the reference URLs which I have provided, and is obstinately
arguing in circles repeating the same questions which I've already
answered.

My mistake on that then. Let's just get down to the foundation. I'll ask
two simple questions here, and if you explain then maybe I can finally
get it:

1. How do you think dogs learn to understand reflection?
2. How do you think bettas learn to understand reflection?

I'm afraid he has already made up his mind a long time ago

Haven't you?

and
will never consider yielding his position on this topic no matter what
anybody says :-/

So far all you've done is say that not understanding they're
looking at a reflection of themselves, somehow means that they
have no concept of themselves. But! You have not explained
why that possibility is the only possibility. I believe it's far more
likely that they have no concept of reflection, than that they have
no concept of themselves. That's because I don't understand how
they could learn what reflection is (but maybe I'll understand after/if
you answer my questions), but I can easily understand ways they
can get a concept(s) of themselves.

You know DH, you don't have to admit that you might be wrong if it's
THAT embarrassing for you,

I might be wrong.

or if you just don't quite understand the
experiments Rudy and I have mentioned.

I don't see how the experiments you and Goo have mentioned,
show that animals are not aware of themselves. As yet I can only
see how the experiments you and Goo have mentioned, show that
animals may not understand reflection.

You could simply say something
like "you people make some interesting points,

I await them.

but I don't think the
evidence is fully conclusive either way, I just feel in my own personal
opinion that animals must at some level have a sense of self-awareness"

I believe it's necessary to the survival of some if not all of them.
If not all of them, it is an evolutionary development and stronger
in more advanced animals, but present to some degree in most
if not all, imo.

and just leave it at that, and you could back out gracefully and not
lose anybody's respect. But all you do is like to do is argue.

Of course it's the same old 'I believe you do too' sort of thing. What
if you're wrong? What if they really do have a concept of themselves,
but just don't understand reflection? What if it is an evolutionary
development that really exists? How could you learn the truth if that's
what it is?

- Logic316



"I think animal testing is a terrible idea; they get all nervous and
give the wrong answers."

Another possibility is that sometimes the researchers reach the
wrong conclusions.

Look folks, feel free to continue this asinine thread without me if you
want, but at least stop crossposting to rec.aquaria.freshwater.goldfish.
This discussion appears to have started
in alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian (a group that always has halfwits and
loonies flaming each other) and has long ago drifted from goldfish to
dogs, which is definitely OFF-TOPIC here.

I'd just like to say a couple of more things: Rudy, you're a smart guy
and usually know what you're talking about. But you need to improve your
manners otherwise people won't take you seriously, and David will just
claim the moral high ground and gain sympathy by acting innocent. David,
you need to stop looking for fights and to get a formal education - your
lack of comprehension of the most basic scientific procedures and
established philosophical principles makes you unqualified to adequately
handle any debate about consciousness, self-awareness, or experiments
measuring animal intelligence in general.

- Logic316



"I think animal testing is a terrible idea; they get all nervous and
give the wrong answers."

dh@. wrote:

On Mon, 05 Sep 2005 19:15:17 GMT, "Spot" wrote:


Barneys first experience with his reflection came when I went to an ATM
machine. He saw his reflection and totally flipped out at the other dog.


So we know he has the ability to recognise reflected images.

We know he didn't recognize HIMSELF.


Over time he came to understand that this other dog in the glass wasn't mean
and he didn't have to go into attack mode........LOL Brandy never paid much
attention to mirrors or reflections.

Celeste


I remember ****ing my dog as a kid.

dh@. wrote:

On Tue, 06 Sep 2005 04:24:40 GMT, Rudy Canoza wrote:


Logic316 wrote:


dh@. wrote:


Question: Has anyone ever managed to get a dog
to understand that it can see its reflection in a mirror,
and if so, did it appear to experience a great revelation
about its own existence at the instant it learned to do so?


At this point, at the risk of getting a bit personal, I have to conclude
that we have a B.S. artist and a troll on our hands who debates more
like a backwoods evangelist than a scientist, appealing to rhetoric and
semantics rather than hard data. DH has pretty much ignored my numerous
posts and the reference URLs which I have provided, and is obstinately
arguing in circles repeating the same questions which I've already
answered.

"DH" is David Harrison. He lives in or near Atlanta,
GA (not in dispute). He is uneducated. He's 46 years
old, maybe 47 by now, and does flunky work. He's a
bible-thumping Southern redneck.


I've read and have little problem with the Koran and the Book of Mormon
as well as the Bible.

That's a lie, ****wit. You could not possibly read the
Koran.

dh@. wrote:

On Mon, 05 Sep 2005 23:23:43 -0400, Logic316 wrote:


dh@. wrote:


Question: Has anyone ever managed to get a dog
to understand that it can see its reflection in a mirror,
and if so, did it appear to experience a great revelation
about its own existence at the instant it learned to do so?

At this point, at the risk of getting a bit personal, I have to conclude
that we have a B.S. artist and a troll on our hands


That's because what I say you find absurd

What you say IS entirely absurd.

On Tue, 06 Sep 2005 18:34:42 -0400, Logic316 wrote:

David,
you need to stop looking for fights and to get a formal education - your
lack of comprehension of the most basic scientific procedures and
established philosophical principles makes you unqualified to adequately
handle any debate about consciousness, self-awareness, or experiments
measuring animal intelligence in general.

- Logic316

The mirror test shows an individual's ability to understand reflection.
If an animal never understands that a mirror can show a reflection of
itself, that doesn't mean that it has no concept of itself. It simply means
that is doesn't have a mental concept of a reflection of itself...it always
believes the reflection is of a different being. I would certainly agree it
shows they don't have self recognition, but that doesn't mean they have
no concept of themselves. There are things to indicate that they do,
but as yet I've seen nothing to indicate that they don't.

On Wed, 07 Sep 2005 06:04:17 GMT, Rudy Canoza wrote:

dh@. wrote:

I've read and have little problem with the Koran and the Book of Mormon
as well as the Bible.

That's a lie, ****wit. You could not possibly read the
Koran.

LOL. What makes you "think" that Goo?

David ****wit Harrison lied:

On Tue, 06 Sep 2005 18:34:42 -0400, Logic316 wrote:


David,
you need to stop looking for fights and to get a formal education - your
lack of comprehension of the most basic scientific procedures and
established philosophical principles makes you unqualified to adequately
handle any debate about consciousness, self-awareness, or experiments
measuring animal intelligence in general.

- Logic316


The mirror test shows an individual's ability to understand reflection.

No. The mirror test shows an animal's self-awareness.