Comedey of Errors - Wait or Medicate
 

I don't think anyone else has mentioned this, so I will suggest
you try to get some Biospira. This stuff is expensive, but
invaluable in this type of situation. You may have to call
several stores before you find it, but it will surely help.

-coelacanth

"NSP" wrote in message
om...
Hi all!

Welcome to my comedey of errors.

I'll tell you the situation briefly first, and then a more detailed
version after.

1. New tank setup - less than a week old.

- 23 US Gallons
- Aquaclear 200
- 1 dose of Hagen Cycle, Aquaclear
- PH 7.0 - 7.5
- 79 - 80 degrees F

2. Fish

1 Placostamus
1 Pregnant Female Guppy
1 Pregnant Female Platy
1 Healthy Male Fancy Guppy
1 very sick (will probably die when I get home) Male Fancy Guppy
1 Male Platy
2 healthy Gouramis
2 Neon Tetras (one appears to have a salt grain on it - I think it is
ich!)
1 Baby platy in a breeding trap (very cute and healthy looking - 3
days old)
2 Serpae Tetras (I think this is what they are called)
2 Zebra Daneos
1 Clown Loach (it's a bottom feeding fish - I may have the name wrong)
1 Female swordtail

3. Current losses

1 Male swordtail
1 Female Guppy

What happened when the fish died :

Both fish became lathargic, hovered at the surface of the water, and
DIED.

My poor wife has become the aquatic grim reaper as she has been
putting the corpses in the freezer to bring back to the pet shop for
warranty (lucky us!).

The sick male guppy listed above is hanging around at the surface of
the water and his fancy tail is torn to shreds.

QUESTION:

I know the tank is very new and it needs to cycle to the proper
bacteria and nitrate levels. However, given the ich on the neon tetra,
I'm not sure if I should medicate or not.

As we don't have a hospital tank, I'm concerned that medications will
hurt our baby Platy and cause havoc with the cycling process.

The other fish in the tank seem to be ok.

Also, is it safe to do a water change? Do I have to be concerned about
temperature changes in the tank? Will a waterchange harm the cycling
process?

If I do a cycle change, can I put the aquaclear in after the water is
poured in the tank? Will letting the water stand overnight equally
remove chlorine?

Here is a little more detail as to what happened:

1. Got a 15 gallon tank.

Pet shop thought it was a 20 gallon tank and advertised it as such. I
bought too many fish for the size of the tank.

It was in this tank that the 2 fish died.

I tried treating the fish with Furon-2 for ich (the Neon Tetras I
mean). I could only give a 2 day dosage though because I had to swap
the tanks. I did not want to put this stuff in the new tank.

2. I got a 23 gallon tank.

I started everything fresh without medicine. I put the cycle and
chlorine clearing chemicals (Hagen). All the filter materials were
replaced with new ones.

I transfered the fish.

The Platy gave us a baby bundle which is in the breeding trap and is
growing fairly quickly.

The male guppy is going through a slow, lingering death.

Overall, I think the fish are doing better in the bigger tank - but
still...

Any ideas?


Neil

killing ich with temperature (was: Comedey of Errors)
 

Tedd Jacobs wrote:


"Donald Kerns" wrote

See my recent post on r.a.f.goldfish quoting the paper from the
Aquaculture Center...

donald, could you repost that here, i dont have the r.a.f.g. :-(

As per request:

In the paper "Ich (White Spot Disease)" by R.M. Durborow et al of the
Southern Regional Aquaculture Center it says

"The amount of time needed for Ich to complete its life cycle is
temperature dependent. Ich commonly infects fish between 68-77 deg F,
but infections do occur at colder temperatures (as low as 33 deg F).

TYPICALLY, ich cannot reproduce properly at water temperatures above 85
deg F. (Got that folks 85 deg F!!! -dk). However, in a case in central
Florida, Ich was responsible for killing fish at 92 deg F."

--
"When you've lost your ability to laugh, you've lost your ability to
think straight." -To Inherit the Wind

Comedey of Errors - Wait or Medicate
 

On Thu, 13 Nov 2003 06:37:50 GMT, coelacanth wrote:
I don't think anyone else has mentioned this, so I will suggest
you try to get some Biospira. This stuff is expensive, but
invaluable in this type of situation. You may have to call
several stores before you find it, but it will surely help.

Coelacanth is talking about "seeding" your tank with bacteria
to get the cycle going faster. Good point! Another way to do this
is take some used filter floss from an established tank, or even
a few cups of gravel (although this is less effective) and put it
in your tank to introduce the bacteria. Why not ask your fish shop
if you can have some used filter floss, and then put it in your
tank - even if it doesnt fit in your filter, pin it under a rock
or float it in a breeding net trap or something, so the bacteria
can get into your tank and get the cycle kickstarted.

http://www.gorge.org/fish/beatingcycle.shtml describes how I did
this to one of my tanks. If you have a friend with a tank, even
better - use them ;)

--
Flash Wilson
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
"I'm an advocate of sex before marriage.
Otherwise I wouldn't have had any at all."

Comedey of Errors - Wait or Medicate
 

best advice anyone COULD give... that should be the second or third line of
every FAQ in a newsgroup...

"Donald Kerns" wrote in message
Tedd wrote:

p.s. one last piece of advice, there is no such thing as a stupid
question here.

Although there are some that will draw the ire of our less tolerant
co-posters.

Set skin thickness to +3.

-D

P.S. Doing your homework also helps... Try here...
http://fins.actwin.com/mirror/
--
"When you've lost your ability to laugh, you've lost your ability to
think straight." -To Inherit the Wind

Comedey of Errors - Wait or Medicate
 

"Flash Wilson" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 13 Nov 2003 06:37:50 GMT, coelacanth wrote:
I don't think anyone else has mentioned this, so I will suggest
you try to get some Biospira. This stuff is expensive, but
invaluable in this type of situation. You may have to call
several stores before you find it, but it will surely help.

Coelacanth is talking about "seeding" your tank with bacteria
to get the cycle going faster. Good point! Another way to do this
is take some used filter floss from an established tank, or even
a few cups of gravel (although this is less effective) and put it
in your tank to introduce the bacteria. Why not ask your fish shop
if you can have some used filter floss, and then put it in your
tank - even if it doesnt fit in your filter, pin it under a rock
or float it in a breeding net trap or something, so the bacteria
can get into your tank and get the cycle kickstarted.

http://www.gorge.org/fish/beatingcycle.shtml describes how I did
this to one of my tanks. If you have a friend with a tank, even
better - use them ;)


neil had tried that with a hagen product i think, ("- 1 dose of Hagen Cycle").
is this similar to the Biospira? better? worse? (i know nothing of fishless
cycles.) ;-)

tedd.

Comedey of Errors - Wait or Medicate
 

On Thu, 13 Nov 2003 09:46:08 -0700, Tedd Jacobs
wrote:
http://www.gorge.org/fish/beatingcycle.shtml describes how I did
this to one of my tanks. If you have a friend with a tank, even
better - use them ;)

neil had tried that with a hagen product i think, ("- 1 dose of Hagen Cycle").
is this similar to the Biospira? better? worse? (i know nothing of fishless
cycles.) ;-)

Ive heard that "cycle" is useless, and that the live bacterial
products are ok (but there is only one that works and I cant
recall if that's it?) I tried a denitrol product when I was a
newbie, but time is the main thing...



--
Flash Wilson Restaurant, music and gig reviews,
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Pylons, Tube and sponsor children,
Visit The Gorge... Images of London, festivals & cars
http://www.gorge.org and everything about Flash Wilson!

Comedey of Errors - Wait or Medicate
 

Hi everyone!

Thank you all for your help.

As expected, my male guppy is in the freezer, and a Zebra Daneo is
swimming toward the light.

I spoke with the pet store this morning, and while they are unwilling
to take the fish back, they will give me credit for the fish that die
because of the cycling issue (they've been very good with me overall -
so I trust them).

I spoke with their fish expert, and he thinks I should just let things
ride out as the tank should cycle within another week or two. After
the cycling finishes, I could then medicate.

I think this is a reasonable solution - though I do feel badly for my
fish.

It was a lot easier when I was 12 years old with my first 10 gallon
tropical tank. I had all the fish listed in this aquatic catastrophe
with almost no problems.

I think the secret was my limited allowance at the time only let me
buy two to three fish in a given month. My childhood allowance cycled
my tank!

I did a water change last night of about 15% of the water. I used a
bucket of lukewarm water with some aquaclear.

The petstore rep told me I should hold off another 2 weeks before I
change the water again. This is different from what I've read here -
so I don't know.

The ich is definately spreading though.

I don't know who to feel more for, the fish - or my gloved fiancee
making regular trips to the freezer!

Regards,
Neil

Comedey of Errors - Wait or Medicate
 

Quick Cure, I've used it before and it does work... however, you've got so
many other things going on, not sure where to start... next time, look
before you leap....

http://faq.thekrib.com/begin-cycling.html is a great place to start...


"NSP" wrote in message
om...
Hi everyone!

Thank you all for your help.

As expected, my male guppy is in the freezer, and a Zebra Daneo is
swimming toward the light.

I spoke with the pet store this morning, and while they are unwilling
to take the fish back, they will give me credit for the fish that die
because of the cycling issue (they've been very good with me overall -
so I trust them).

I spoke with their fish expert, and he thinks I should just let things
ride out as the tank should cycle within another week or two. After
the cycling finishes, I could then medicate.

I think this is a reasonable solution - though I do feel badly for my
fish.

It was a lot easier when I was 12 years old with my first 10 gallon
tropical tank. I had all the fish listed in this aquatic catastrophe
with almost no problems.

I think the secret was my limited allowance at the time only let me
buy two to three fish in a given month. My childhood allowance cycled
my tank!

I did a water change last night of about 15% of the water. I used a
bucket of lukewarm water with some aquaclear.

The petstore rep told me I should hold off another 2 weeks before I
change the water again. This is different from what I've read here -
so I don't know.

The ich is definately spreading though.

I don't know who to feel more for, the fish - or my gloved fiancee
making regular trips to the freezer!

Regards,
Neil

Comedey of Errors - Wait or Medicate
 

NSP wrote:

snip

I spoke with the pet store this morning, and while they are unwilling
to take the fish back, they will give me credit for the fish that die
because of the cycling issue (they've been very good with me overall -
so I trust them).

I spoke with their fish expert, and he thinks I should just let things
ride out as the tank should cycle within another week or two. After
the cycling finishes, I could then medicate.

I think this is a reasonable solution - though I do feel badly for my
fish.

OK. Seems a reasonable solution given your conditions. You're gonna lose
more fish.

Given that you're going to lose fish no matter what, here is a
compromise that MAY save some.

#1) Get some AmQuel. It neutralizes the ammonia in a way that still
allows the tank to cycle.
#2) Check and see if the majority of your fish can handle/tolerate 85
deg F water. If so, add additional air stones to the tank and raise the
temp up to that level (no more than 4 deg F per day).

The higher temp messes with the Ich's reproductive cycle, the AmQuel
handles the increase in ammonia toxicity due to the increased temp, the
additional O2 handles the lower DO2 level due to the higher water.

It was a lot easier when I was 12 years old with my first 10 gallon
tropical tank. I had all the fish listed in this aquatic catastrophe
with almost no problems.

Prolly some plants too, right?

I think the secret was my limited allowance at the time only let me
buy two to three fish in a given month. My childhood allowance cycled
my tank!

Bingo.

The petstore rep told me I should hold off another 2 weeks before I
change the water again. This is different from what I've read here -
so I don't know.

Sigh. Different strokes for different folks.

Water changes will make the conditions easier on the fish (keeping the
ammonia and nitrIte levels lower), but MAY prolong the cycle period.

The ich is definately spreading though.

Other non-medical solutions would be to get a diatomic filter and run
that puppy. This type of filter will filter out the ich organisms. I'm
not sure if a UV unit will kill ich. Probably, if the zap dosage is
high enough.

Others have success by darkening the tank. I have no experience with
this approach.

I don't know who to feel more for, the fish - or my gloved fiancee
making regular trips to the freezer!

[being a little more pointed than I normally am...]
Is there a reason she's doing this rather than you?

I've always found that having to directly deal with the consequences of
my mistakes / lack of knowledge (in the form of dead little jewels from
nature) to be strongly motivational for me not to screw up again.

They generally stay in the freezer until we plant the next set of
flowers. And get "buried" to help the flowers grow.

Other things to consider. If you have a source of low cost 5 gallon
buckets, you could transfer some of the fish into them to lower the
overall population density.

My $0.02US

-Donald
--
"When you've lost your ability to laugh, you've lost your ability to
think straight." -To Inherit the Wind

Comedey of Errors - Wait or Medicate
 

Hi everyone.

Looks like the Zebra Daneo made it to the light. I think the female
swordtail is next. The neon tetras are covered in ich. I'm going to
keep the lights off for awhile.

I was doing some research with the ideas brought forward here, and I
came across an AquaClear filter insert called "Zeo-Carb". My
understanding is it helps filter out amonia.

Anyone have feedback on this product? Would it hinder cycling?

There is also "Ammo-rid", but I hear it takes away too much Ammonia
and hinders bacteria growth.

Incidentally, my fiancee tends to be the grim reaper because I work
nights, and she works days. For some reason, the fish survive the day.


Regards,
Neil