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Bo0ger1, show me your tank...
bo0ger1 wrote:
Might be better to stand the question on it's head and ask those who do water changes "what do you think they achieve". I don't need to remove NO3 (It varies between 0 & 5ppm) or PO4 or anything else I can think of right now. If adding trace elements is your reason, then you're assuming that the salt mix you buy has the correct trace elements in it (Some don't event get the Ca & alk. right). I have been arguing with these nuckleheads for about 2-weeks regarding unnecessary water changes. I have received 3-reasons that they do them. 1) In order to add trace elements/remove nitrate. 2) It's enjoyable 3) Because coral release toxic chemicals into the water ?? I think the real reason they do it is for a lack of understanding at the chemical/biological level. It is easier for them to do a water change than to grasp what is going on in their tank at a biological level. BTW: It's not laziness either, I also have 4 FW tanks & they get 20% changed every 2 weeks. Anyone got any live rock that works in FW? OK...I am very much a newbie here and come from a freshwater tropical background where water changes are your saviour....reducing nitrates, phosphates, docs and other nasties....has to be done....just a way of life....but I am also very fascinated about finding the way to do this naturally....in my freshwater tanks this is dead easy....just plant everywhere and fertilise to promote the growth of the higher plant species to get rid of algea (OK it isn't really that easy but it is achievabale..) but water changes still play a big roll in this....now to get a biotope working in a freshwater tank is quite a challenge as well....Amano works towards doing this...and I know that there are schools of thought that suggest that in a heavily planted tank gravel vaccuming is a bad rather than a good thing..... Now when it comes to water changes, and I am very much a newbie brought up on the freshwater tank mentality.....I see gravel vacs in my 15 gall Nano tank as a bad thing - afterall the whole thing balances on the little critters living in my rocks and sand.....no way I want to suck them up.....if my nitrates and phosphates are zero or only just dectable then there is no need to change the water based on these readings....and the Protein Skimmer is visibly doing its job.....but my corals are dying and suffering, from what the process of elimination has determined, some sort of toxins in the water then water changes is the only way to go....if the tank was older than 10 weeks plus then I would look at other issues...but even if the nitrogen cycle is complete this tank is still developing (6 months down the line I hope I laugh at the traumas I've had in the last 2 weeks - or at least be a little wiser)......and rather hope I still have some corals living as a testament to my learning process.... Failing all other measures....I will do water changes....and really I get quite curious....if you are not doing water changes you are obviously topping up the water to deal with evaporation....and this might just be enough.....afterall it is still a slow and gentle water change....and as far as I can see slow and gentle is the key..... Would love to see pics of your tank Gill |
Bo0ger1, show me your tank...
"bo0ger1" .@. wrote in message m... Might be better to stand the question on it's head and ask those who do water changes "what do you think they achieve". I don't need to remove NO3 (It varies between 0 & 5ppm) or PO4 or anything else I can think of right now. If adding trace elements is your reason, then you're assuming that the salt mix you buy has the correct trace elements in it (Some don't event get the Ca & alk. right). I have been arguing with these nuckleheads for about 2-weeks regarding unnecessary water changes. I have received 3-reasons that they do them. 1) In order to add trace elements/remove nitrate. 2) It's enjoyable 3) Because coral release toxic chemicals into the water ?? I think the real reason they do it is for a lack of understanding at the chemical/biological level. It is easier for them to do a water change than to grasp what is going on in their tank at a biological level. BTW: It's not laziness either, I also have 4 FW tanks & they get 20% changed every 2 weeks. Anyone got any live rock that works in FW? Stop skirting the subject. We still haven't seen a picture of your tank boog. I will say, I'm finding this subject quite interesting Fact or fiction: The toilet bowl effect. You're basically telling us knuckle draggers that if your eat, sleep and **** in water it some how stays clean enough to live in. Call me silly, but isn't it true if you drink you urine more than 3 times it gets toxic ? |
Bo0ger1, show me your tank...
/The Conscientious Marine Aquarist
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/watrqualmar.htm Marine Aquarium Water Quality What is this ideal, this oxymoron, this mythical beast "Water Quality"? Asked to name the 'secret' to successfully keeping marines, what would you say? Buying the 'right' specimens? Proper acclimation, feeding? All these are critically important; as is keeping parasitic and infectious diseases at bay. You may well recall, the third triad in our model of factors determining the well-being of any system is suitability of the environment. For the majority of situations/circumstances we are talking about water quality. Of the controllable variables of aquariculture, it is the most important. Let's make this perfectly clear; everything about the health of your system is tied to water quality. If your fishes appear ill, do not first suspect disease, refrain from changing their food, light, or anything else; check the quality of your water. I swear more aquatic life has been 'saved' by moving to new water, or executing a massive water change, than the use of all medications combined. To put this concept in more succinct terms: Nearly all livestock problems start and end with the appropriateness of their liquid medium. Let's work our way into a definition of what good water quality is and how it is best approximated. You won't have to become a chemist or physicist, I promise. An Ideal Set-up: Take a gander at the photographs of public aquariums offered in this magazine. How do they keep the water in their tanks so clean and clear? I know what you're thinking; "They must have super-filtration systems, with digital dosimeters like a nuclear power plant, exotic towers, and a full-time scientific staff." "Bob the Fishman lied; I am going to have to become an engineer". Well, guess what, that gin-clear water is often due to a sand filter, the beach. Some of these public aquariums dig sal****er wells and pump up the seawater that percolates to it through the surrounding porous rock. Good deal. Their "open circuit" and "semi-open" (recirculated) systems return the barely used natural water back to the adjacent ocean. We're not quite so fortunate with our "closed", recirculating units. Our water starts out as good as we can make it and degrades from there, chemically and physically. The use of various filter modes, additives and maintenance only serves to slow down the pace; water quality dis-improves. Be aware, but don't let this bum you out. The majority of organisms available to the hobby have a wide tolerance and are adaptable to initial and aged water conditions. Natural Seawater Is not used by most aquarists. Look in the hobby magazines; you don't see many advertisements promoting gear for manipulating real seawater. Synthetics are almost universally employed; huge public aquaria even use them. For instance the "new" National Aquarium @ Baltimore. Even though it's right on the Bay, they mix up and recirculate hundreds of thousands of gallons of synthetic seawater. Discussion and arguments for natural/synthetic sal****er I've covered before (see Bibliography). Let's focus our attention here on artificial mixes; what most everyone employs. It's the Water, & A Lot Mo The United States has gone from agricultural, to manufacturing, to services and through the eighties well into the information age. Forget about investing in the technical highway; get with a real booming field Sal****er Mixes. I wish you and I got to have the money all the manufactures spend advertising every month in the hobby magazines. Talk about a growth industry. Is there really that much difference (besides price) amongst all the brands? Yes & No. Some are more "pure" in that they are composed to a greater degree from "technical" and "reagent" grade constituents (yes, I used to teach chemistry and physics). Others can portend they are more "complete" in that they specifically have tested (more) vigorously for and/or added more elements and compounds mimicking "real" seawater. Admittedly they vary in initial pH, alkaline-reserve, re-dox, etc.; but ostensibly they all will/do support most forms of captive marine life. Other factors in artificial seawater-making loom large in consideration of "quality". Some Background: The composition of seawater in it's various salts (about 35 parts per thousand), minerals, metals... is often presented as being of rigid, and homogeneous constitution throughout the world's oceans. And the wildlife in it being of narrow tolerance of change in this 'holy grail' consistent medium. This is only part of a/the big picture as regards the waters our livestock hail from. Almost all are collected from places that are opportune to humans, not surprisingly. They are typically shallow water, coastal, near population (polluted) centers, that are subjected to varying specific gravity, run-off, sewage, wave action induced pH fluctuations... What's more, all living things show a broader-narrower tolerance /range to environmental conditions. Hence our chances at successfully meeting their needs in artificial media. The principal ingredient, by weight and volume in a marine system is... H2O. Your tap water has much more to it then Hydrogen and Oxygen. Ordinary mains water sports dissolved and suspended gases, solids, other liquids, remnants of, and organic life; and a sanitizer (usually chloramine). Here in Southern California we regularly have several hundred parts per million (ppm) of total dissolved solids (TDS) in our tap. Does all this glop (non-scientific term) pose real problems for an earnest marine aquarist? No, in all honesty, it's minor spuds (small potatoes) compared with all the other contributing factors affecting the make-up of your system's water. Hear me out. The E.P.A., among other agencies, mandates just how much of several (from the Middle English, meaning 'many') chemical and biological species are allowable in potable water. For instance, tap must have a concentration of less than 1.0 ppm total Nitrate (NO3). Further influences? Have you thought of the ongoing effects from dissolving substrates, rock, decor, feeding (one ounce of food in one million ounces of water would be 1 ppm), biological processes going on in your closed system? And what about the interactions between all this and the salts and more you add to the water? If you've grown fond of lugging bottled water, utilizing reverse-osmosis, or even distilled water, more power to you. But let's keep all this in perspective. The bulk of undesirable "extras" in tap water can be either ignored or easily removed either through an in-line chemical contactor" (e.g. Aquarium Pharmaceutical's Tap Water Purifier (tm)) or commercially produced conditioners. Not to disparage the use of more "purified" water out of hand/proportion; my point is that compared with other contributing factors, for marine systems, ordinary treated tapwater is not a major source of concern in terms of added nutrient, pollutants, metals... Freshwater biotopes (e.g. wild discus, some killies) that appreciate far less in their water are a different matter. Keeping Water Quality High: Filtration Some of the general techniques used to preserve water quality will introduce here; and discuss them more fully in upcoming issues. Biological Filtration: is the sum-total of interactions between the micro- (one's you can't see with the naked eye) and macro- (one's you can) life, rendering less-noxious the waste-production of the latter. 'Sterile' new marine systems don't stay that way for long. Colonizing microbes come in via the air, water, items that find their way into the system, intentionally or not. Eventually (after a few weeks) without adding desirable varieties, beneficial microbes become established in a system sufficient to readily process livestock wastes. These processes are expedited by use of undergravel filtration, wet-dry techniques, live-rock, fluidized bed, nitrate et al. scrubbers... Chemical Filtrants: like activated carbon and specialized resins are used to remove dissolved organics. They do also remove trace materials you want in the system, but this is an agreeable trade-off. Mechanical Means: of removing particulates; power filters, diatomaceous earth, cartridge types, etc. take out suspended matter aiding their removal, digestion by microbes. Air-stripping, aka Protein skimming is a given for me; all marine systems benefit from their use and should be outfitted with them. Where properly built (a rarity) and used, skimming is supreme at improving water quality via fractional removal of organics. Ozone the tri-atomic (O3) form of Oxygen, added through a skimmer or by itself raises reduction oxidation potential, adds to conversion or organics. Ultraviolet Sterilization is of some, but limited value with other filtration and system maintenance considerations taken into account. U-V's are useful in reducing free-floating microbe populations and their biological effects, nominally raising re-dox, oxygen and ozone levels. To recap; it is my opinion that marine systems must be outfitted first with working Biological Filtration, then with a protein skimmer, with or without an ozonizer. Ultraviolet is and should be a last concern. Loading otherwise known as stocking, crowding a marine system with livestock is difficult to quantify, and seemingly impossible to control for aquarists. Obviously, the less "fixed-carbon" (life), concomitant addition as food, the minimized effects of induced-pollution, metabolite build-up... So small is beautiful in stocking your system. Public aquaria allow as little as a few ounces of livestock per hundred gallons of system water. My guideline is any more than a cubic inch of any given mix of specimens per five gallons is pushing it, asking for increased maintenance, and trouble. Water Changes are the single most important means you have to reduce the effects of captive containment, ultimate shift, loss of water quality. Diluting ill-effects, adding "trace" materials from new seawater should be done on a regular, consistent time schedule. Do not be sold on any given technology that purports to make "water changing unnecessary". Frequent, partial water changes are the least expensive, most effective way to ensure and sustain aquariums successfully; period. This being written (and believed), remember 'cleanliness is not sterility'; there are beneficial substances produced by life processes. You want to vacuum clean only a portion of a system at any time. Depending of course on your systems' size, configuration, particulars of filtration, circulation, foods/feeding... probably ten to twenty percent every few weeks. Supplements: The relative merits of additives will be covered later in a piece titled Adjuncts to Water Quality Test Gear: How can you tell when and to what degree your efforts are necessary or productive? Hydrometers to measure specific gravity, test kits of myriad types can be useful tools, "windows" for looking into changing conditions in your water quality. In Summary: It is easy to see how easily our water quality degrades in such small, overcrowded, often underfed captive systems. It can be bewildering to get too involved in understanding, or worse, driving one aspect of "water quality" without concomitant awareness of how that change affects other aspects of chemistry, physics and biology of your system. Fear not, as most appropriate livestock that has been collected and held properly is quite tough and resistant to the vicissitudes of aquarium confinement. Do learn the consequences of the major testable criteria of water quality, avail yourself of the gear for evaluation (test kits), and be fastidiously regular in your maintenance; in particular frequent, partial water changes. Bibliography/Further: Anon. 1974. Sal****er quality. Aquarium Digest International 2:4/74. Bidwell, Joseph P. 1976. Water quality and the bioassay. Marine Aquarist 7:7/76. Campbell, Douglas G. Water quality in the marine system, parts I & II. FAMA 6,7/95. Dawes, John. 1988. Water quality in marine systems. Pets Supplies Marketing 8/88. Emmens, C.W. 1989. Water quality in the marine aquarium. FAMA 8/89. Fenner, Bob. 1989. Frequent partial water changes. FAMA 4/89. Fenner, Bob. 1991. Seawater, natural or synthetic? (Which way to go?). FAMA 9/91. Glodek, Garrett. 1993. The properties of seawater. FAMA 2/93. King, John, M. 1972. Marine aquariums are NOT miniature oceans. Marine Aquarist 3(4)/72. Smit, George. 1989. The water quality factor in marine aquariums, parts 1 & 2. FAMA 1,3/89. Sprung, Julian. 1996. Water quality: Sal****er; more than just numbers. AFM 6/96. Thiel, Albert J. 1993. Introduction to water quality. FAMA 3/93 |
Bo0ger1, show me your tank...
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Bo0ger1, show me your tank...
The "Perfect" Water Change Regimen?
A Healthy Habit For The Hardcore Fish Nerd! By Scott Fellman One of the best things that we can do to assure continuing success with our captive marine systems is to perform regular water changes. So very simple, yet so amazingly beneficial! Water changes achieve several valuable things, including the dilution of dissolved organic wastes, nutrient export, and replenishment of trace elements, just to name a few. When performed on a regular basis, water changes provide the inhabitants of the closed marine system a stable, consistent environment. And, environmental stability is one of the keys to success in our hobby! Water changes tend to be viewed by most hobbyists as a necessary evil; a practice that we begrudgingly embrace to achieve a modicum of success with our aquariums. Many hobbyists will do the occasional 10%-25% water change once a month, once every couple of months, or even less often (oh, the horror!)! There is, however, a better way! 5% Twice A Week. That's All I Ask! As I just asserted, one of the primary benefits of the water change in a closed system is the dissolution of dissolved organics in the water. In the closed system, fish wastes and other organics are broken down by the beneficial bacteria that reside in the sand bed, live rock, and filter media. However, over time, the end products of the biological filtration process (nitrate and phosphate, in particular) tend to accumulate in the system. The accumulation of these products can lead to significant degradation of your tank's water quality, and a reduction in the pH of the tank water. The key to eliminating this problem is, of course, regular water changes! If done consistently, regular small water changes can help dilute organic wastes before they ever have an opportunity to accumulate in your system. Trace elements will be replenished with fantastic regularity. Think of the money that you'll save by not having to purchase all of those additives you've been using! "Ok", I can hear you saying, "I get the picture.Regular water changes are a good idea. But how much do I have to change.And how often?" Less than you think.but more often than you'd assume! My recommendation for an easy-to-accomplish, highly beneficial water change regimen is to perform two 5% water changes per week. "Twice a week! What a pain! Is this guy nuts?" Well, yes, but that's another topic for another time! Seriously, though, this is a lot easier to accomplish than you might think. Think about it. Five percent of your tank volume (that's only 5 gallons in a 100 gallon tank, or just 2.5 gallons in a 50 gallon tank), performed on, say, Wednesday and Sunday. By following this routine, you're aquarium's inhabitants are never more than 3 days from the next water change.and that is some serious frequency, my friends! However, this is not a daunting task, by any means. In fact, you can perform an efficient water change in as little as 10 minutes (Trust me here- I timed it!) . Using decidedly "low tech" methods, you can create a healthy, stable environment in your aquarium. When I say "low tech"- I mean it! We're talking a flexible plastic hose, nothing more! Sure, you could use one of those fancy store-bought numbers, but the tubing works just fine for me! Obviously, when conducting the water change, you need to be sure to utilize high quality source water (such as RO/DI water), a good salt mix, and similar specific gravity, temperature, and pH. Environmental consistency is extremely important, and conducting water changes in a manner that breeds consistency will assure stability in your aquarium! Another side benefit of frequent small water changes is that you are "involved" with your tank on a rather "intimate" level, on a very regular basis. You'll see what's really going on in your tank, notice changes or sudden problems, and be able to correct them in a rapid manner. You'll save money on additives, too! Rather than spend tons of cash on lots of different trace elements, additives, and assorted vitamin products, you'll be able to replenish the majority of these compounds through these frequent water changes. Sure, you may need to supplement calcium, iodine, and possibly, a few other compounds which your animals utilize on a daily basis, but you'll use far less of them in many cases. And, while you're making these regular water changes, why not use the opportunity to empty the collection cup and clean the neck of your protein skimmer (you do use one, right?), replace chemical filtration media , and clean mechanical filter pads and/or filter "socks"? By cleaning the mechanical media within your system often, you'll help prevent detritus and organics from building up within them, which can measurably degrade water quality if left unattended. Most amazing of all will be the noticeable results in your aquarium: Fishes will display brighter colors, eat better, and be more alert and active than you've ever seen them! Corals and invertebrates will display significant improvement in color, growth, and recovery following imposed propagation techniques. You'll enjoy a whole new dimension of success with your system. Water parameters will remain more stable, nuisance algae will begin to disappear from your system, and your tank will take on a visual clarity that will astound you! All in all, your system will benefit enormously from the employment of these frequent, small water changes. Give them a try, and watch your system thrive as never before! |
Bo0ger1, show me your tank...
amen!
So far three people in this newsgroup do little or no water changes at all, you, blackhole..., and myself. It is true what you say, it is just lack of knowledge. My system is similar to blackhole's except that I don't add any supplements but I will start using them after seeing his tank. I use Rowaphos for the PO4 and my circulation system is producing a lot of debris with lots of PO4. As soon as I change the lighting system, T5, I will post some pictures here. See, the three of us have some level of knowledge on science. This people rely on LFS for their decisions, feel sorry for them, lol iy "bo0ger1" .@. wrote in message m... Might be better to stand the question on it's head and ask those who do water changes "what do you think they achieve". I don't need to remove NO3 (It varies between 0 & 5ppm) or PO4 or anything else I can think of right now. If adding trace elements is your reason, then you're assuming that the salt mix you buy has the correct trace elements in it (Some don't event get the Ca & alk. right). I have been arguing with these nuckleheads for about 2-weeks regarding unnecessary water changes. I have received 3-reasons that they do them. 1) In order to add trace elements/remove nitrate. 2) It's enjoyable 3) Because coral release toxic chemicals into the water ?? I think the real reason they do it is for a lack of understanding at the chemical/biological level. It is easier for them to do a water change than to grasp what is going on in their tank at a biological level. BTW: It's not laziness either, I also have 4 FW tanks & they get 20% changed every 2 weeks. Anyone got any live rock that works in FW? |
Bo0ger1, show me your tank...
atomweaver wrote:
In that respect, blackhole555 has contributed an order of magnitude more content with one post, than you have in the last three weeks at r.a.m.reefs. It's been going one much longer than that - he used to post under the handle "stoutman." In essence, he used to be fat, now he's just snotty. As "stoutman", he stated he has a fish-only tank but couldn't understand why a reef tank would be any different as regards water changes. George Patterson Those who do not study History are doomed to repeat it. Those who DO study History are doomed to watch every one else repeat it. |
Bo0ger1, show me your tank...
|
Bo0ger1, show me your tank...
Buried in that excellent article is this -
"Do not be sold on any given technology that purports to make 'water changing unnecessary'. Frequent, partial water changes are the least expensive, most effective way to ensure and sustain aquariums successfully; period." George Patterson Those who do not study History are doomed to repeat it. Those who DO study History are doomed to watch every one else repeat it. |
Bo0ger1, show me your tank...
I started reading those long posts but have to confess I got distracted
and spent an hour or so peering into my reef instead: that sort of thing seems to happen a lot. Skipping down to the references I note that some of them are 25-30-35 years old! Reefkeeping has changed a lot from that time of the old "coral graveyard", I think the needs of modern reef tanks are quite different and maybe you can't use the same agruments anymore. If you have high NO3 (or PO4) then you need water changes, completely agree with that. Originally mine were up in the 40-50ppm, I solved this by:- 1) starting to grow Cheato in the sump 2) changing my feeding regiem 3) adding a DI pod to my RO system. On point (3), I discovered that my RO water had about 7ppm of NO3 in it, top-up & water changes were actually contributing to high NO3! DI pod fixed that. As an aside, I'm amazed that one of the articals above advocates using tap water rather than RO for top up & water changes, a sure-fire recipe for high NO3, I think. Although I'm guessing that most of you are on the other side ofthe pond (I'm a Brit.), maybe you have better water quality than me!. |
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