Saltwater Aquariums Home Service in Orlando
 

Hello;
I don't see any disagreements between your views and mine.
NH3NO2NO3 in a danger gradient.

I just have to add that if anyone is going to try to duplicate in-vitro what
nature has in-situ better has his/her pocket full of cash.
The beauty of this hobby is to try to create something similar in his tank
but never will be able, no matter how much money they put into it, to
re-create a piece of the ocean in a glass tank.
There are obstacles to overcome this but many had come with some pretty
remarkable ways to do it.
Unless you put diapers on your fish, they will continue to pee in your tank.
That ammonia and other nutrients will build up in your system.
I think I found a tolerable level were the fish does fine.
N and P are being removed from my tank without expensive investments. They
may be high under your standards but I chose fish that can tolerate those
levels.

Happy new year.

"Pszemol" wrote in message
...
"Guayni; SAHS" wrote in message
. ..
The issue here seams to be the lack or erroneous knowledge
about the Nitrogen Cycle.

I agree :-) You have still a lot to learn...

Ammonia is the most dangerous form of nitrogen in your tank.

Any ammonia which is detectable with aquarium-grade tests
in an established aquarium tells you one of the two things:

- your test is wrong/faulty/old/missused

- you have something big and freshly dead, decomposing

In a healthy&cycled tank any amount of ammonia produced by
fish is QUICKLY eaten up by 1st group of bacteria, which
use ammonia and convert them to nitrites. No ammonia should be
detected in the water using usual aquarium-grade tests
because all is quickly neutralized if the biological
filter is working properly...

Simple way to check your test is to measure ammonia level
in a freshly mixed sal****er, there should be no detectable
ammonia there. The same applies to nitrites, of course.

It gets oxidized to NO2-(nitrites) by bacteria. The sole
presence of nitrites is a direct indicator that your bacteria
is oxidizing Ammonia since it has no other substantial way
of entering your aquarium.

Detectable nitrites are also strong indication of
INSUFFICIENT action of the second group of bacteria:
these which take nitrites and produce nitrates...

Nitrites get oxidized even further and converted to NO3-(Nitrates)
If your system is low on Ammonia and Nitrites then your bacteria is
oxidizing it to Nitrates.

0.50 mg/l of ammonia in an estabilished aquarium is HIGH!
It usually means that you can find dead fish in one
of the fish tank corners... These are the levels which
should NEVER be detected in a healthy fish tank...

A nitrates level of higher than 1000ppm is needed to cause death
to your fish. Nevertheless a high concentration (100ppm) will
have a direct effect on your fish's metabolism.

And because we do not want nitrates affect our fish we
strive to keep nitrates BELOW 10mg/l, preferably even
lower in a healthy reef tank (1mg/l and lower if possible).

Using SEACHEM low-range nitrite/nitrates test on the water
from my reef tank I read both nitrite and nitrates 0 mg/l.
Of course it does not mean 0.0000000 :) it simply means they
are below detection limits of the test. First pink color
on the scale is way below 0.1mg/l so I can say nitrates in
my reef tank is at 0.1mg/l or below - this is dirrect effect
of deep sand bed (DSB) and anoxic layers deeper in this sand
where denitrification occurs in my tank.

The problem is usually with phosphates, which in my tank
(with quite heavy cyanobacteria activity eating phosphates up)
is still above 0.1 mg/l PO4: reading 0.18 mg/l on the HANNA
INSTRUMENTS low-range phosphates photometer/colorimeter (+/- 4%)
My goal is to have them below 0.1mg/l with no ugly cyanobacteria
activity helping to bring it down.

In other words, the job of your bacteria ends there, for Nitrates
to be reduced again to nitrites requires low levels of Oxygen.
Many aquarists remove Nitrates by means of water changes.
I chose to remove it by harvesting algae and by creating a nutrients
sink where Nitrates are confined to a specific place where they
feed my algae to be harvested. Is a principle learned in a Wetlands
Ecology class. Is the same principle mangroves in nature and
drainfields in households use.

The problem is (and you are obviously unable to grasp it) that
nitrates at a level of 50 or 100mg/l are simply NOT TOLERABLE
in a helthy, good looking reef tank. Period!
Reef tanks require the cleanest water possible in aquarium trade!
In the tropical reef waters in the ocean, nitrates level is
usually between 0.1-0.3 mg/l. Let's round it up, generously
to 1mg/l - your tank have 50 or 100 times more nitrates than
the reef water in the ocean. Inorganic phosphate levels are less
than 0.3mg/l with dissolved organic phosphate less than 0.15 mg/l.

If you want to bring your magical filter to the reef tanks market
you need to show that your method keeps phosphates and nitrates
under the levels accepted for a reef tank: 0.1 mg/l and 5 mg/l
respectively.

Think about the problem areas in your tank and come up with a solution to
each of the problems:
- high ammonia (any detectable ammonia in a cycled tank is a concern)
- high nitrites (any detectable nitrites in a cycled tank is a concern)
- high nitrates.

Think of it as your homework to do before you come back here
and repeat your preaching about your magical filter... :-)

Saltwater Aquariums Home Service in Orlando
 

"Guayni; SAHS" wrote in message .. .
I think I found a tolerable level were the fish does fine.
N and P are being removed from my tank without expensive investments. They
may be high under your standards but I chose fish that can tolerate those
levels.

The problem is, that your levels are "tolerable" for fish only
systems, not for reef tanks - do you understand the difference ?

Saltwater Aquariums Home Service in Orlando
 

Pszemol wrote:
"Guayni; SAHS" wrote in message
. ..

The issue here seams to be the lack or erroneous knowledge
about the Nitrogen Cycle.


I agree :-) You have still a lot to learn...

Ammonia is the most dangerous form of nitrogen in your tank.


Any ammonia which is detectable with aquarium-grade tests
in an established aquarium tells you one of the two things:

- your test is wrong/faulty/old/missused

- you have something big and freshly dead, decomposing


Could be other things. Basically, it means that amino acids are being
broken down into ammonia faster than the Nitrosomonas bacteria can
handle it. This could be caused by simply added more fish to quickly. Or
some of the bacteria dying off due to someone putting antibiotics in the
tank, etc.



In a healthy&cycled tank any amount of ammonia produced by
fish is QUICKLY eaten up by 1st group of bacteria, which
use ammonia and convert them to nitrites. No ammonia should be
detected in the water using usual aquarium-grade tests
because all is quickly neutralized if the biological
filter is working properly...

Simple way to check your test is to measure ammonia level
in a freshly mixed sal****er, there should be no detectable
ammonia there. The same applies to nitrites, of course.

It gets oxidized to NO2-(nitrites) by bacteria. The sole
presence of nitrites is a direct indicator that your bacteria
is oxidizing Ammonia since it has no other substantial way
of entering your aquarium.

Not true at all. There are many things other than the end product of
Nitrosomonas that can do this. I once saw a tank deliberately sabotaged
by someone pouring in a foreign substance that was pretty much 100%
nitrites (pentobutyl nitrite, to be specific) Easy enough to come by if
you know what it is sold/used for.


Detectable nitrites are also strong indication of
INSUFFICIENT action of the second group of bacteria:
these which take nitrites and produce nitrates...

Nitrites get oxidized even further and converted to NO3-(Nitrates)
If your system is low on Ammonia and Nitrites then your bacteria is
oxidizing it to Nitrates.


0.50 mg/l of ammonia in an estabilished aquarium is HIGH!
It usually means that you can find dead fish in one
of the fish tank corners... These are the levels which
should NEVER be detected in a healthy fish tank...

A nitrates level of higher than 1000ppm is needed to cause death
to your fish. Nevertheless a high concentration (100ppm) will
have a direct effect on your fish's metabolism.


And because we do not want nitrates affect our fish we
strive to keep nitrates BELOW 10mg/l, preferably even
lower in a healthy reef tank (1mg/l and lower if possible).

Using SEACHEM low-range nitrite/nitrates test on the water
from my reef tank I read both nitrite and nitrates 0 mg/l.
Of course it does not mean 0.0000000 :) it simply means they
are below detection limits of the test. First pink color
on the scale is way below 0.1mg/l so I can say nitrates in
my reef tank is at 0.1mg/l or below - this is dirrect effect
of deep sand bed (DSB) and anoxic layers deeper in this sand
where denitrification occurs in my tank.

The problem is usually with phosphates, which in my tank
(with quite heavy cyanobacteria activity eating phosphates up)
is still above 0.1 mg/l PO4: reading 0.18 mg/l on the HANNA
INSTRUMENTS low-range phosphates photometer/colorimeter (+/- 4%)
My goal is to have them below 0.1mg/l with no ugly cyanobacteria
activity helping to bring it down.

Iron hydroxide. Specifically, RowaPhos, is good for this. Other products
that are based on iron hydroxide work well too. (phosban, etc)


In other words, the job of your bacteria ends there, for Nitrates
to be reduced again to nitrites requires low levels of Oxygen.
Many aquarists remove Nitrates by means of water changes.
I chose to remove it by harvesting algae and by creating a nutrients
sink where Nitrates are confined to a specific place where they
feed my algae to be harvested. Is a principle learned in a Wetlands
Ecology class. Is the same principle mangroves in nature and
drainfields in households use.

Then he should have learned about the anaerobic phase. Dig into the sand
on the beach at low tide - that black smelly sand you find below the
high tide mark is laden with bacteria that break down nitrates rather
nicely.



The problem is (and you are obviously unable to grasp it) that
nitrates at a level of 50 or 100mg/l are simply NOT TOLERABLE
in a helthy, good looking reef tank. Period!
Reef tanks require the cleanest water possible in aquarium trade!
In the tropical reef waters in the ocean, nitrates level is
usually between 0.1-0.3 mg/l. Let's round it up, generously
to 1mg/l - your tank have 50 or 100 times more nitrates than
the reef water in the ocean. Inorganic phosphate levels are less
than 0.3mg/l with dissolved organic phosphate less than 0.15 mg/l.

If you want to bring your magical filter to the reef tanks market
you need to show that your method keeps phosphates and nitrates
under the levels accepted for a reef tank: 0.1 mg/l and 5 mg/l
respectively.

Think about the problem areas in your tank and come up with a solution
to each of the problems:
- high ammonia (any detectable ammonia in a cycled tank is a concern)
- high nitrites (any detectable nitrites in a cycled tank is a concern)
- high nitrates.

Think of it as your homework to do before you come back here
and repeat your preaching about your magical filter... :-)

who needs it? I have 0/0/0 ammonia/nitrites/nitrates in a 20gal nano
with basically just live rock and a deep sand bed for a filter. No sump,
either. (biggest issue is evaporation and salinity, and keeping the Ca
and alkalinity up)

Saltwater Aquariums Home Service in Orlando
 

Pszemol wrote:
"Guayni; SAHS" wrote in message
.. .

I think I found a tolerable level were the fish does fine.
N and P are being removed from my tank without expensive investments.
They may be high under your standards but I chose fish that can
tolerate those levels.


The problem is, that your levels are "tolerable" for fish only
systems, not for reef tanks - do you understand the difference ?

Problem is I think some here don't know what a reef system is.

Why are most of the posts fish related?

Frankly, I only have fish in my tank to create fertilizer and crop the
hair algae.

Saltwater Aquariums Home Service in Orlando
 

Guayni; SAHS wrote:
The issue here seams to be the lack or erroneous knowledge about the
Nitrogen Cycle.
Ammonia is the most dangerous form of nitrogen in your tank. It gets
oxidized to NO2-(nitrites) by bacteria. The sole presence of nitrites is a
direct indicator that your bacteria is oxidizing Ammonia since it has no
other substantial way of entering your aquarium.
Nitrites get oxidized even further and converted to NO3-(Nitrates)
If your system is low on Ammonia and Nitrites then your bacteria is
oxidizing it to Nitrates.
A nitrates level of higher than 1000ppm is needed to cause death to your
fish. Nevertheless a high concentration (100ppm) will have a direct effect
on your fish's metabolism.

100 is in the deadly range for a reef tank. One aims for 0 nitrates in a
reef tank. one can get by having readings of 20-30 on a constant basis
for a fish only or fish with hearty invertebrates type system. But not
in a reef tank.

In other words, the job of your bacteria ends there, for Nitrates to be
reduced again to nitrites requires low levels of Oxygen.

Um, "nitrates reduced again to nitrites"? !?!?! Huh?

Given that you mention "low levels of oxygen", I assume you are
referring to anaerobic bacterial activity reducing nitrate levels? That
process takes nitrates and converts them to either amino acids (less so)
or atmospheric nitrogen more so). NOT nitrites.

Many aquarists remove Nitrates by means of water changes. I chose to remove
it by harvesting algae and by creating a nutrients sink where Nitrates are
confined to a specific place where they feed my algae to be harvested. Is a
principle learned in a Wetlands Ecology class. Is the same principle
mangroves in nature and drainfields in households use.

It's called a refugium. Nothing new.

Would it suprise you that my tank has no real filter to speak of (hang
on power filter basket has only rubble rock in it - no foam filter, no
chemical media) and yet all my nitrogen related levels are 0? (0
ammonia, 0 nitrite, 0 nitrate?) And I manage that with NO refugium, no
sump, and absolutely no macro algae at all in my tank.

Properly set up modified berlin systems (live rock plus DSB) are the way
to go for reefs. No doubt about it.

Saltwater Aquariums Home Service in Orlando
 

Add Homonym wrote on 1/2/2007 6:06 PM:
Guayni; SAHS wrote:

snip,,

In other words, the job of your bacteria ends there, for Nitrates to
be reduced again to nitrites requires low levels of Oxygen.

Um, "nitrates reduced again to nitrites"? !?!?! Huh?

Given that you mention "low levels of oxygen", I assume you are
referring to anaerobic bacterial activity reducing nitrate levels? That
process takes nitrates and converts them to either amino acids (less so)
or atmospheric nitrogen more so). NOT nitrites.


Actually it's converted to nitrites, and then the nitrite
is converted to nitrogen gas. So yes, incomplete
denitrification can convert nitrates into nitrites.

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets

Saltwater Aquariums Home Service in Orlando
 

"Add Homonym" wrote in message ...
Properly set up modified berlin systems (live rock plus DSB)
are the way to go for reefs. No doubt about it.

Let's not make a bigger mess in terminology... please.
Let's not call system with DSB a Berlin method!

Berlin method since forever was bare bottom method.

DSB is just deep sand bed method, not a berlin at all.

Deep sand beds are not very popular in Europe anyway.
Not big market for live sand dug from the reef and
shipped wet like live rock - this is popular in USA mostly.

Saltwater Aquariums Home Service in Orlando
 

Wayne Sallee wrote:

Actually it's converted to nitrites, and then the nitrite is converted
to nitrogen gas. So yes, incomplete denitrification can convert nitrates
into nitrites.

So, why do we get a conversion of nitrites to nitrates? Seems to me that, once
an organism develops that converts nitrites to nitrogen, it would replace the
bacteria that convert nitrites to nitrates.

Hey, maybe it does. I suppose you wouldn't really know what's going on once all
the levels are 0.

George Patterson
Forgive your enemies. But always remember who they are.

Saltwater Aquariums Home Service in Orlando
 

In an oxygen environment, bacteria converts ammonia into
nitrite, and in an oxygen environment bacteria converts
nitrite into nitrate.

In a low oxygen environment bacteria converts nitrate into
nitrite, and in a low oxygen environment bacteria converts
nitrite into nitrogen gas.

George Patterson wrote on 1/2/2007 11:33 PM:
Wayne Sallee wrote:

Actually it's converted to nitrites, and then the nitrite is converted
to nitrogen gas. So yes, incomplete denitrification can convert
nitrates into nitrites.

So, why do we get a conversion of nitrites to nitrates? Seems to me
that, once an organism develops that converts nitrites to nitrogen, it
would replace the bacteria that convert nitrites to nitrates.

Hey, maybe it does. I suppose you wouldn't really know what's going on
once all the levels are 0.

George Patterson
Forgive your enemies. But always remember who they are.

Saltwater Aquariums Home Service in Orlando
 

Wayne Sallee wrote:

Actually it's converted to nitrites, and then the nitrite is converted
to nitrogen gas. So yes, incomplete denitrification can convert nitrates
into nitrites.

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets


Heh. Learn something new every day. Thanks.

(off to google so I can see how the whole process works...)