Should we use Ocean Water in our Saltwater Aquarium?
 

As always, I do appreciate your input, you are one of the few I read
complete posts from.
I am going to try to answer all your questions the best I can.

"Pszemol" wrote in message
...
"Guayni; SAHS" wrote in message
...
BTW, the last water change on my personal tank was on January 06. Had two
vacations since and left home for more than 3 weeks on each.

Will you refuse details about your tank as you did in the past,
or this time you will tell us something about it ?

I did say that my tank is experimental and the filtering system is under
development. It is, altogether, a 95 gal FWLR system. No corals yet. I
know this is a reef newsgroup but is also the only group with great
information. Reef aquariums don't have to have corals. I will upgrade
later when I get my new T5 lighting.


What corals do you keep since last water change ?
none

How big is the tank and what kind, how many fish you keep there ?
is a 65 galons FWLR and it has...
1 blenny on the main aquarium and one in the mini-tank
1 juvenile Blue Angelfish
1 Foxface Rabbitfish
1 Regal Damoiselle
4 juvenile Clark's Clownfish
1 Boxing Shrimp
10 Astrea Snails
10 Hermits
1 brown short spine Sea Urchin
2 Emerald Crabs
2 Peppermint Shrimps
1 Yellow Tang
15lbs Liverock
Enough Caulerpa and hair algae in my mini-tank as a mean to extract every
two weeks nutrients from the water column, 5 ounces every other week
harvested

My Cebae Anemone died due to poor lighting.

The current water parameters of my tank are posted on my website and all
except O2 are good. Yet, this readings are questionable because there is
enough air input. I am going to buy a Pinpoint monitor to double check.
http://www.guayni.com/mytank.htm


Do you use any phosphate removal chemicals/reactors ?
Rowaphos!

Any additives for calcium or anything else ?
Reef buffer by Seachem and baking soda!

Any pictures of the tank showing the condition of the corals ?
since I have no corals, no I have no pictures YET!

Thanks!

Should we use Ocean Water in our Saltwater Aquarium?
 

I do appreciate your comments. I don't know where you get your doubts from.
There are many here that debate the facts for a need to change your water
often.
I do have a friend that makes water changes every FOUR days, sometimes every
TWO days.
Again, if you are going to make water changes this often, you don't need all
those gadgets in your tank.


"Tristan" wrote in message
...
Well I sure do not know where y9u come from but its pretty darn common
in the states to do a partial ewater change every 2 or so weeks. SOme
folks do it every week. I do it when I remember. Not because its
cruddy water but because its a way to get rid of DOC and other junk
as well as replace essential trace elements. A skimmer does not
remove everything that is not good for the tank and it also removes
beneficial stuff as well since its an indiscriminate piece of
equipment. Besides we all do not have such an elaborate peice of hyped
up equipment like you do. I would like to see yu poist your so called
theories on a few of the web based forums and see what kind of
response you get when yu inform foks you did not do a wc since Jan of
06. Yea right...the man down the street is selling them new fang
dangled flying pigs too.!

On Tue, 5 Dec 2006 21:23:10 -0500, "Guayni; SAHS"
wrote:

Again, you are brave. Water changes every month?
Might as well sell your skimmer and filters on ebay because they are
worthless if you are going to change the water so often. I wonder if it
is
because of the water you use. Thanks for the heads-up! yet another
reason
against using crude water.
BTW, the last water change on my personal tank was on January 06. Had two
vacations since and left home for more than 3 weeks on each.



"Tristan" wrote in message
. ..


Not really I do regular water changes at 2 to 3 week intervalls if I
remember sometimes it more like a month between changes....my waster
is just a sgood as any made with synthetic, and possible better than
man made sw is.

Same for my sand I get, since I do and have not spent inornate sums of
money on bagged sand at lfs. Its all collected locally.
On Mon, 4 Dec 2006 20:37:03 -0500, "Guayni; SAHS"
wrote:

Well, you are brave.
The gulf of Mexico is the biggest depository of contaminants of the US
of
A.
The Mississippi River alone accounts for most of the contamination. If
we
include Texas, Mexico and Florida, three over industrialized state or
nation, then you don't even know what are you putting in your aquarium.
I guess you need to make constant water changes.
But, if it is working for you, I may go to Virgen Gorda in the Virgin
Islands and bring some of that crystalline water back with me.

"Tristan St. John" wrote in message
...


I use nothing but NSW I collect from the Gulf of Mexico. I know of at
least 25+ others that do as well and we have yet to have a problem,
with the water or the sand we collect.....On Mon, 4 Dec 2006 11:50:41
-0600, "Pszemol" wrote:
"Guayni; SAHS" wrote in message
.net...
I have to add that the great majority of sea dwelling creatures
include in
their life cycle tiny or microscopic larvae and eggs. This
stages
of
potentially dangerous species may enter your tank unseen. On a
plankton
sample taken near Mona island in Puerto Rico, hundreds of miles
away
from
any river or developed area, I found TMTC (Too many to count)
species
of
parasitic copepods, Callinectes spp, Panulirus spp, Hermodice
spp,
hydroids
and others to include shark eggs.

Would you be willing to ship couple of liters of such water to me?

Should we use Ocean Water in our Saltwater Aquarium?
 

"Guayni; SAHS" wrote in message .. .
I did say that my tank is experimental and the filtering system is under
development. It is, altogether, a 95 gal FWLR system. No corals yet.
I know this is a reef newsgroup but is also the only group with great
information. Reef aquariums don't have to have corals. I will upgrade
later when I get my new T5 lighting.

Well, think about it for a moment:
You are educated marine biologist but have no experience with reef tanks
(I am talking about the REAL reef tanks, with corals as the main bioload!)
It does not stop you from offering your advices on a reef forums and
suggesting that water changes are totally not necessary in the reef tank,
giving an example your own tank without water changes since January
BUT YOU HAVE NO CORALS...

What is wrong with this picture, Jaime?


BTW-
I have checked the website you linked (http://www.guayni.com/mytank.htm)
and I noticed that the measurements history does not start at January '06.
Do you have any data from before September ? Could you share them online ?
Also - please note EXTREMELY high readings for nutrients in your tank:
you show 100mg/l of nitrates and 1mg/l phosphates. Maybe this can be
tolerated by fish only tank, but it is not very healthy for fish...
With this levels of nitrates they are in constant stress and their growth
is retarded. These kind of water conditions are absolutely impossible
in a successful reef tank where you strive to keep nitrates below 10mg/l
(better below 5mg/l) and phosphates below 0.1mg/l - less is better.
Concentration of these ions in your tank is 10x greater...

I can tell you already, with such high nutrients level in your tank
adding more light will cause your tank turn into mud pond full of algae.
There is no way to have a reef tank with 100mg/l of nitrates and 1mg/l of
phosphates - that is why we, REEF tank owners, change the water periodically.

Once again: read some books about reef tanks, prepare your tank properly,
buy some easy to keep corals "for begginers" (leather, mushrooms, etc)
and when you gain some experience with keeping corals get some more
demanding coral species. Keep them in good health growing and looking
good for a year or two and then you will be equipped in some bare
minimal experience to share advices on a reef tank newsgroups...

Do not be the second "boOger1" on this newsgroup who states he does not
see the reason for water changes in a reef tank, but himself he does
not have any reef tank experience... His claims are very similar to yours:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.a...1bb113fa0b0385
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.a...5c6ba77311f288

So far your advices about no changing water do more harm than good!

Seriously - please do - not one - do SEVERAL 20-30% water changes
for the sake of good health and well being of your marine animals...

Take care,
Pszemol.

Should we use Ocean Water in our Saltwater Aquarium?
 

"Guayni; SAHS" wrote in message ...
I do appreciate your comments. I don't know where you get your doubts from.
There are many here that debate the facts for a need to change your water
often.
I do have a friend that makes water changes every FOUR days,
sometimes every TWO days.

Let me guess - he has lots of corals, doesn't he ? :-)
Ask him what levels of nitrates and phosphates are in his tank
and compare with your readings.
Than think about the differences and make smart, educated conclusions...

Again, if you are going to make water changes this often,
you don't need all those gadgets in your tank.

Yes you do - without them you would have to change water every day :-)

Jaime, believe me - with 100mg/l of nitrates and 1mg/l of phosphates
your tank water is just sewer full of refuse.

We do not want to have sewer water in our reef tanks, and that
is the reason we *do* water changes... Do you understand, now ?

Should we use Ocean Water in our Saltwater Aquarium?
 

"Pszemol" wrote in message ...
I have checked the website you linked (http://www.guayni.com/mytank.htm)
and I noticed that the measurements history does not start at January '06.
Do you have any data from before September ? Could you share them online ?
Also - please note EXTREMELY high readings for nutrients in your tank:
you show 100mg/l of nitrates and 1mg/l phosphates. Maybe this can be
tolerated by fish only tank, but it is not very healthy for fish...

One more thing - what kind of tests were used for testing nitrates
and phosphates in your tank ? What brand/manufacturer ?

For most of the aquarium grade tests, 100mg/l mark would be at the
far end of the color scale, so it is completely possible you have
there much more than a 100mg/l of nitrates. This happened to me
once in a freshwater tank full of guppies and mollies where I did
neglect water changes for about half a year. I tested the water
and got 100mg/l of nitrates, so to be sure I diluted aquarium water
sample ten-fold to get expected reading 10mg/l - I got about 20-40mg/l
instead which mean that the tank water had concentration close to 200mg/l

Maybe the same is in your tank ? Better do some water changes, soon!

Should we use Ocean Water in our Saltwater Aquarium?
 

Thanks for your concerns!
It is simple, I am not, nor I claim to be a hobbyist of marine aquariums. I
am a seasoned coastal marine biologists that found people spending more than
they need to in tanks.
Just because my EXPERIMENTAL tank don't have any corals YET, doesn't mean I
am not qualified for any of my services.
I have worked and service many university tanks used in studies in Puerto
Rico (Caribbean! Tropical! and the only true tropical reefs in US
jurisdiction) and Central Florida.
Is OK that you have to protect the reason behind your expensive investments.
I never tried to argue with aquarists, I just gave my humble opinion that
most of these gadgets are draining people's pockets and, as far as I know,
more experienced aquarists agree with me here.

As for the readings on my tank, I hope you read the note before the data
explaining why it only contains data for the past months. Basically, I
started anew with a different testing set and better monitors. I didn't
want to put there two different sets of readings from different methods, it
just doesn't work that way.
Nevertheless, the water in that tank has been running without a water change
since Jan06. Of course is not the same water, the original one has
evaporated a long time ago with routine water additions to compensate.

I am well aware of the fact that I am not a conventional aquarist, never
tried to be one. I am just bringing to this group another perspective. You
can agree or disagree on my methods but as for knowing coastal reefs, well,
I am far ahead of you on this matter unless you have worked and dive in the
Puerto Rican coasts under the supervision of experienced professionals for
15 years. What you see or want to emulate in your tank, I've seen it and
studied it in-situ. My work is well known around the island and am bringing
it to Florida.

Last but not least, why answer to my posts using my name? you are not
anyone I know, leave that to people that know me.

If you think that by having a reef tank and observing what happens makes you
better prepared than a coastal marine biologist, you are not telling the
truth to yourself.

Now, I think that you rely on aquarists handbooks and references, not me. I
rely on experience and real scientific work again, IN THE ONLY TROPICAL
COAST UNDER US JURISDICTION. There is also the VI but they don't have a
university program that attracts students from all over the world.

Put aside your cookbooks for aquarists and go to any university and read the
real thing.


"Pszemol" wrote in message
...
"Guayni; SAHS" wrote in message
.. .
I did say that my tank is experimental and the filtering system is under
development. It is, altogether, a 95 gal FWLR system. No corals yet.
I know this is a reef newsgroup but is also the only group with great
information. Reef aquariums don't have to have corals. I will upgrade
later when I get my new T5 lighting.

Well, think about it for a moment:
You are educated marine biologist but have no experience with reef tanks
(I am talking about the REAL reef tanks, with corals as the main bioload!)
It does not stop you from offering your advices on a reef forums and
suggesting that water changes are totally not necessary in the reef tank,
giving an example your own tank without water changes since January
BUT YOU HAVE NO CORALS...

What is wrong with this picture, Jaime?


BTW-
I have checked the website you linked (http://www.guayni.com/mytank.htm)
and I noticed that the measurements history does not start at January '06.
Do you have any data from before September ? Could you share them online ?
Also - please note EXTREMELY high readings for nutrients in your tank:
you show 100mg/l of nitrates and 1mg/l phosphates. Maybe this can be
tolerated by fish only tank, but it is not very healthy for fish...
With this levels of nitrates they are in constant stress and their growth
is retarded. These kind of water conditions are absolutely impossible
in a successful reef tank where you strive to keep nitrates below 10mg/l
(better below 5mg/l) and phosphates below 0.1mg/l - less is better.
Concentration of these ions in your tank is 10x greater...

I can tell you already, with such high nutrients level in your tank
adding more light will cause your tank turn into mud pond full of algae.
There is no way to have a reef tank with 100mg/l of nitrates and 1mg/l of
phosphates - that is why we, REEF tank owners, change the water
periodically.

Once again: read some books about reef tanks, prepare your tank properly,
buy some easy to keep corals "for begginers" (leather, mushrooms, etc)
and when you gain some experience with keeping corals get some more
demanding coral species. Keep them in good health growing and looking
good for a year or two and then you will be equipped in some bare
minimal experience to share advices on a reef tank newsgroups...

Do not be the second "boOger1" on this newsgroup who states he does not
see the reason for water changes in a reef tank, but himself he does
not have any reef tank experience... His claims are very similar to yours:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.a...1bb113fa0b0385
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.a...5c6ba77311f288

So far your advices about no changing water do more harm than good!

Seriously - please do - not one - do SEVERAL 20-30% water changes
for the sake of good health and well being of your marine animals...

Take care,
Pszemol.

Should we use Ocean Water in our Saltwater Aquarium?
 

Just one comment about my tank. It is no sewer, not even close. I have it
in my den and everyone that comes to my house and has a glass of Brandy with
me enjoys it and wants to have one of my filters.
Again, as soon as I upgrade the lighting system I will put pictures on my
website.
Lets see how far can I go with a water change. Eventually I will but not
before I make all my tests.

"Pszemol" wrote in message
...
"Guayni; SAHS" wrote in message
...
I do appreciate your comments. I don't know where you get your doubts
from. There are many here that debate the facts for a need to change your
water often.
I do have a friend that makes water changes every FOUR days,
sometimes every TWO days.

Let me guess - he has lots of corals, doesn't he ? :-)
Ask him what levels of nitrates and phosphates are in his tank
and compare with your readings.
Than think about the differences and make smart, educated conclusions...

Again, if you are going to make water changes this often,
you don't need all those gadgets in your tank.

Yes you do - without them you would have to change water every day :-)

Jaime, believe me - with 100mg/l of nitrates and 1mg/l of phosphates
your tank water is just sewer full of refuse.

We do not want to have sewer water in our reef tanks, and that
is the reason we *do* water changes... Do you understand, now ?

Should we use Ocean Water in our Saltwater Aquarium?
 

Oh! but I will do water changes eventually, not yet!

"Pszemol" wrote in message
...
"Pszemol" wrote in message
...
I have checked the website you linked (http://www.guayni.com/mytank.htm)
and I noticed that the measurements history does not start at January
'06.
Do you have any data from before September ? Could you share them online
?
Also - please note EXTREMELY high readings for nutrients in your tank:
you show 100mg/l of nitrates and 1mg/l phosphates. Maybe this can be
tolerated by fish only tank, but it is not very healthy for fish...

One more thing - what kind of tests were used for testing nitrates
and phosphates in your tank ? What brand/manufacturer ?

For most of the aquarium grade tests, 100mg/l mark would be at the
far end of the color scale, so it is completely possible you have
there much more than a 100mg/l of nitrates. This happened to me
once in a freshwater tank full of guppies and mollies where I did
neglect water changes for about half a year. I tested the water and got
100mg/l of nitrates, so to be sure I diluted aquarium water
sample ten-fold to get expected reading 10mg/l - I got about 20-40mg/l
instead which mean that the tank water had concentration close to 200mg/l

Maybe the same is in your tank ? Better do some water changes, soon!

Should we use Ocean Water in our Saltwater Aquarium?
 

"Guayni; SAHS" wrote in message ...
Thanks for your concerns!
It is simple, I am not, nor I claim to be a hobbyist of marine aquariums.
I am a seasoned coastal marine biologists that found people spending
more than they need to in tanks.

These people probably would not be satisfied with 100mg/l nitrates
and 1mg/l of phosphates in their tanks :-)

Just because my EXPERIMENTAL tank don't have any corals YET, doesn't mean I
am not qualified for any of my services.
I have worked and service many university tanks used in studies in Puerto
Rico (Caribbean! Tropical! and the only true tropical reefs in US
jurisdiction) and Central Florida.

Labolatory tanks are built for different purpose than hobbyist tanks.
I would like to see the university/lab tanks without water change for a year :-)

Is OK that you have to protect the reason behind your expensive investments.
I never tried to argue with aquarists, I just gave my humble opinion that
most of these gadgets are draining people's pockets and, as far as I know,
more experienced aquarists agree with me here.

What can you know about my "expensive" investments ?
I have a SeaClone skimmer for $60 and home made light fixture for 2x96W.
Couple of powerheads and a ghetto "sump" made of a $8 10 gallon tank...
I use this equipment for many years now - I would not call it expensive!

As for the readings on my tank, I hope you read the note before the data
explaining why it only contains data for the past months. Basically, I
started anew with a different testing set and better monitors. I didn't
want to put there two different sets of readings from different methods, it
just doesn't work that way.
Nevertheless, the water in that tank has been running without a water change
since Jan06. Of course is not the same water, the original one has
evaporated a long time ago with routine water additions to compensate.

I am well aware of the fact that I am not a conventional aquarist, never
tried to be one. I am just bringing to this group another perspective.

What another perspective you bring ?
The one when you do not change the water for a year than the nitrates
go to the roof and the readings are over 100mg/l ? It is common sense!
This is nothing new in this hobby... :-)

You can agree or disagree on my methods

Your methods ? You have not presented ANY methods for a reef tank!
You have shown a dirty fish-only tank with water poluted with
fish waste beyond imagination. What "methods" you refer to ?
Your method is quite simple: "do not change water for a year
and you will get a dirty tank like I have" - this is your method :-)

[...] but as for knowing coastal
reefs, well, I am far ahead of you on this matter unless you have
worked and dive in the Puerto Rican coasts under the supervision
of experienced professionals for 15 years.

What you see or want to emulate in your tank, I've seen it and
studied it in-situ. My work is well known around the island
and am bringing it to Florida.

Tell me please, what way diving is connected with keeping a reef tank ?

BTW -
What regions in Puerto Rico have reef waters with level of nitrates 100mg/l
and phosphates 1mg/l ? Can you point me to the some references showing
water tests with such polution and thriving reefs in this poluted water ?

Last but not least, why answer to my posts using my name?
you are not anyone I know, leave that to people that know me.

You were posting here using your own name before, so I know you :-)
Don't you remember our conversations on this forum from the past ?
I remember...

If you think that by having a reef tank and observing what
happens makes you better prepared than a coastal marine
biologist, you are not telling the truth to yourself.

No, this it not what I think... Do not put words in my mouth.

I think that you do not own a reef tank, not even anything
resembling a reef tank... and no experience keeping one.
If you had, you would know what 100mg/l mean for a reef tank.

I also think that extremely high levels of nutrients/waste in
your tank show clearly that your "method" of keeping the water
clean (whatever you think the method is) is not working ...
That is what I know for sure.

Now, I think that you rely on aquarists handbooks and references,
not me. I rely on experience and real scientific work again,
IN THE ONLY TROPICAL COAST UNDER US JURISDICTION. There is also
the VI but they don't have a university program that attracts
students from all over the world.

Put aside your cookbooks for aquarists and go to any university
and read the real thing.

I do not know what are you reading in these university books,
but maybe you do not understand what you read ? Measurements
of waste compounds from your own tank tell me more truth about
your lack of knowledge and efficiency of methods to keep it
clean than your "humble" words about yourself...

Should we use Ocean Water in our Saltwater Aquarium?
 

"Guayni; SAHS" wrote in message ...
Oh! but I will do water changes eventually, not yet!

You are probably wait for first sings of stress in fish, right ?