salt
 

"jthread" wrote in message ...
I'm changing water way too much. But I keep a close eye on nitrates and
it needs it. I've been slowing down on the food but the nitrates are
still too high.

I have a blue trigger (not a blue throat) and he eats the small fish.
But otherwise very social. He eats out of my hand.

After some research it may be a female blue throat trigger. Looks like
one. If there is someone to fight with ~ the trigger will be there. She
killed a lobster (quite a sight) and two small fish.

and this fish is a part of your reef setup??

yeah, whats the problem? nitrates? the tank it's in is doing better with
nitrates. the tank I have the most problems with is a false back tank.
i'm thinking of adding a canister filter to the false back.

What are your nitrate levels before and after water change?
How much water do you replace each time in % ?
How do you prepare your water for mixing? Do you use RO/DI filters?
If you do not use RO/DI filters, how much nitrates is in tap water?

Have you ever measured phosphates?

p.s. I use Instant Ocean salt mix.

I've checked instant ocean but it's prices are still high. After reading
some comments I think it's my problem is feeding. If was changing the water
every 9 months price wouldn't be an issue. I really don't see how I can keep
the nitrates at 0.

Obviously water changes alone are not enough solution.
Consider algae filters (algae scrubers) as a simple alternative.
Also, you can consider converting your reef tank into
a Deep Sand Bed style, which uses deep sand bed full of
sand-dwelling animals as very effective nitrates reducing factory.

salt
 

"Pszemol" wrote in message
...
"jthread" wrote in message
...
I'm changing water way too much. But I keep a close eye on nitrates
and it needs it. I've been slowing down on the food but the nitrates
are still too high.

I have a blue trigger (not a blue throat) and he eats the small fish.
But otherwise very social. He eats out of my hand.

After some research it may be a female blue throat trigger. Looks like
one. If there is someone to fight with ~ the trigger will be there. She
killed a lobster (quite a sight) and two small fish.

and this fish is a part of your reef setup??

yeah, whats the problem? nitrates? the tank it's in is doing better with
nitrates. the tank I have the most problems with is a false back tank.
i'm thinking of adding a canister filter to the false back.

What are your nitrate levels before and after water change?
How much water do you replace each time in % ?
How do you prepare your water for mixing? Do you use RO/DI filters?

I have a water softener and then run it through a RO. I tested it for
nitrates and chlorine and both were zero. DI would be redundant.

If you do not use RO/DI filters, how much nitrates is in tap water?

Have you ever measured phosphates?

yes. no problem

p.s. I use Instant Ocean salt mix.

I've checked instant ocean but it's prices are still high. After reading
some comments I think it's my problem is feeding. If was changing the
water every 9 months price wouldn't be an issue. I really don't see how I
can keep the nitrates at 0.

Obviously water changes alone are not enough solution.
Consider algae filters (algae scrubers) as a simple alternative.
Also, you can consider converting your reef tank into
a Deep Sand Bed style, which uses deep sand bed full of
sand-dwelling animals as very effective nitrates reducing factory.

I'll talk to the guys down at the LFS about those thanks. I think I'm going
to do a drastic change in the system. I may as well because at this rate
I'll lose more money on the salt.

salt
 

"ythread" wrote in message ...
yeah, whats the problem? nitrates? the tank it's in is doing better with
nitrates. the tank I have the most problems with is a false back tank.
i'm thinking of adding a canister filter to the false back.

What are your nitrate levels before and after water change?
How much water do you replace each time in % ?
How do you prepare your water for mixing? Do you use RO/DI filters?

I have a water softener and then run it through a RO. I tested it for
nitrates and chlorine and both were zero. DI would be redundant.

I am not sure of the chemistry in the "water softening" process,
but it might add salts to water, so then you would not be helping
your mambrane feeding it with softened water as opposite to the
streight tap water.

How the RO filter works is that quality of the water flowing out
of the filter strongly depends on the salt content of water
flowing into the filter. In other words, RO filter removes
some percentage of the salts like nitrates or phosphates
from the tap water. Let's say it will remove 80% of nitrates.
You will be getting 4mg/l or 8mg/l of nitrates in the water
flowing out of the filter depending on the content in the
tap water changing from 20mg/l to 40mg/l.

DI stage is never really "redundand" in this meaning, that
it will polish the water already cleaned by the RO stage.
If there is 8mg/l nitrates left after RO stage, DI stage
will get rid of the remaining 8mg/l and water after the DI
stage will have almost 0mg/l nitrates. This is why I use it
as my last stage after RO.

If you do not use RO/DI filters, how much nitrates is in tap water?

Have you ever measured phosphates?

yes. no problem

What was the reading?

p.s. I use Instant Ocean salt mix.

I've checked instant ocean but it's prices are still high. After reading
some comments I think it's my problem is feeding. If was changing the
water every 9 months price wouldn't be an issue. I really don't see how I
can keep the nitrates at 0.

Obviously water changes alone are not enough solution.
Consider algae filters (algae scrubers) as a simple alternative.
Also, you can consider converting your reef tank into
a Deep Sand Bed style, which uses deep sand bed full of
sand-dwelling animals as very effective nitrates reducing factory.

I'll talk to the guys down at the LFS about those thanks. I think I'm going
to do a drastic change in the system. I may as well because at this rate
I'll lose more money on the salt.

Where are you located and how much do you pay for the bucket of IO salt?
I am located West from Chicago and I pay $35.99 at petsmart.com - they
run a sale now with free shipping on orders $50 or more, so two buckets
will run you $72. This is what I got when added two buckets to the cart:

http://www.petsmart.com/
Merchandise Subtotal: $ 71.98

Estimated Shipping and Handling:
Based on ground shipping within continental U.S. $57.68

FREE* shipping on orders of $50 or more, valid online only.
(See Promotion Details) -$57.68

Sales Tax:
$0.00


Estimated Total: $71.98

salt
 

"Pszemol" wrote in message
...
"ythread" wrote in message
...
yeah, whats the problem? nitrates? the tank it's in is doing better
with nitrates. the tank I have the most problems with is a false back
tank.
i'm thinking of adding a canister filter to the false back.

What are your nitrate levels before and after water change?
How much water do you replace each time in % ?
How do you prepare your water for mixing? Do you use RO/DI filters?

I have a water softener and then run it through a RO. I tested it for
nitrates and chlorine and both were zero. DI would be redundant.

I am not sure of the chemistry in the "water softening" process,
but it might add salts to water, so then you would not be helping
your mambrane feeding it with softened water as opposite to the
streight tap water.

Thanks for that. I'm checking with Rain Soft. I can bypass the water
softener if that is true. From what I understand the water softener lowers
TDS. But after regeneration it does have a slight salt taste to it.

How the RO filter works is that quality of the water flowing out
of the filter strongly depends on the salt content of water flowing into
the filter. In other words, RO filter removes
some percentage of the salts like nitrates or phosphates
from the tap water. Let's say it will remove 80% of nitrates.
You will be getting 4mg/l or 8mg/l of nitrates in the water
flowing out of the filter depending on the content in the
tap water changing from 20mg/l to 40mg/l.

I checked nitrates. 0 ppm

DI stage is never really "redundand" in this meaning, that
it will polish the water already cleaned by the RO stage.
If there is 8mg/l nitrates left after RO stage, DI stage
will get rid of the remaining 8mg/l and water after the DI
stage will have almost 0mg/l nitrates. This is why I use it
as my last stage after RO.

If you do not use RO/DI filters, how much nitrates is in tap water?

I don't know.

Have you ever measured phosphates?

yes. no problem

What was the reading?

0 ppm

p.s. I use Instant Ocean salt mix.

I've checked instant ocean but it's prices are still high. After
reading some comments I think it's my problem is feeding. If was
changing the water every 9 months price wouldn't be an issue. I really
don't see how I can keep the nitrates at 0.

Obviously water changes alone are not enough solution.
Consider algae filters (algae scrubers) as a simple alternative.
Also, you can consider converting your reef tank into
a Deep Sand Bed style, which uses deep sand bed full of
sand-dwelling animals as very effective nitrates reducing factory.

I'll talk to the guys down at the LFS about those thanks. I think I'm
going to do a drastic change in the system. I may as well because at this
rate I'll lose more money on the salt.

Where are you located and how much do you pay for the bucket of IO salt?
I am located West from Chicago and I pay $35.99 at petsmart.com - they
run a sale now with free shipping on orders $50 or more, so two buckets
will run you $72. This is what I got when added two buckets to the cart:

How many gal. does that treat? The 5 gal bucket of Tropic Marin treats 200
gal.

Austin TX. I'm paying $71 + tax for a 5 gal bucket of Tropic Marin. I could
save by buying it through Marine Depot. Free shipping after $175 purchase.
But the price of the salt, I don't believe, is the issue anymore. It's the
nitrates.

http://www.petsmart.com/
Merchandise Subtotal: $ 71.98
Estimated Shipping and Handling:
Based on ground shipping within continental U.S. $57.68
FREE* shipping on orders of $50 or more, valid online only.
(See Promotion Details) -$57.68
Sales Tax: $0.00

Estimated Total: $71.98

High Nitrates salt
 

Yes, get rid of the bioballs, slowly.

What type of substrate do you have? It's best to
have a fine calcium sand. If you have calcium
gravel, you can put calcium sand on top of that.

Wayne Sallee



jthread wrote on 10/23/2007 1:39 PM:
"Peter Pan" wrote in message
...
"jthread" wrote in message
...
"Peter Pan" wrote in message
. ..
Just curious, but why are doing so many water changes?

They are my wife's tanks but she kept killing the coral. So i started
checking the nitrates daily. The nitrates would go to 40 ppm every couple
of days. So I slowed down the feeding by 1/2 but it's still is getting
dirty too fast. Everything is healthy now but it's costing me a small
fortune in salt. I use RO water and it has been tested.

Any suggestions are welcome.

This guy is a member of this newsgroup and often has TONS of info, here's
one of his Nitrate article.. its very useful
http://www.melevsreef.com/reducing_nitrates.html

Also, how much water are you changing each time you do your partials?

Good luck

Thanks for the article. Sounds like I need a sump. We put our large reef
tank in a place that can't handle a sump but with some carpentry work I
might be able to put one in.

When I change water I do about 33%. When the nitrates were real high I was
doing 60 to 70% and it didn't seem to effect the fish or coral.

The 45 gal tank has a Eheim 2213 canister and a Remora Aqua C hang on
skimmer. The 29 gal tank has a false back with the filter system -: bio
balls, Sapphire skimmer, filter media, activated charcoal.

I noticed he said that Bio Balls cause nitrates! Yikes. I put bio balls in
the media chamber of the Aqua C. and they are in the false back too. I
wonder if I should find something else?

salt
 

"ythread" wrote in message ...
I have a water softener and then run it through a RO. I tested it for
nitrates and chlorine and both were zero. DI would be redundant.

I am not sure of the chemistry in the "water softening" process,
but it might add salts to water, so then you would not be helping
your mambrane feeding it with softened water as opposite to the
streight tap water.

Thanks for that. I'm checking with Rain Soft. I can bypass the water
softener if that is true. From what I understand the water softener lowers
TDS. But after regeneration it does have a slight salt taste to it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_softener

Does not look like it would lower TDS just by swapping Ca++ or Mg++ with Na+.

How the RO filter works is that quality of the water flowing out
of the filter strongly depends on the salt content of water flowing into
the filter. In other words, RO filter removes
some percentage of the salts like nitrates or phosphates
from the tap water. Let's say it will remove 80% of nitrates.
You will be getting 4mg/l or 8mg/l of nitrates in the water
flowing out of the filter depending on the content in the
tap water changing from 20mg/l to 40mg/l.

I checked nitrates. 0 ppm

OK.

Have you ever measured phosphates?

yes. no problem

What was the reading?

0 ppm

What nitrate and phosphate tests you use?
What is their accuracy or resolution?
I would not be so confident with these zeroes...

p.s. I use Instant Ocean salt mix.

I've checked instant ocean but it's prices are still high. After
reading some comments I think it's my problem is feeding. If was
changing the water every 9 months price wouldn't be an issue. I really
don't see how I can keep the nitrates at 0.

Obviously water changes alone are not enough solution.
Consider algae filters (algae scrubers) as a simple alternative.
Also, you can consider converting your reef tank into
a Deep Sand Bed style, which uses deep sand bed full of
sand-dwelling animals as very effective nitrates reducing factory.

I'll talk to the guys down at the LFS about those thanks. I think I'm
going to do a drastic change in the system. I may as well because at this
rate I'll lose more money on the salt.

Where are you located and how much do you pay for the bucket of IO salt?
I am located West from Chicago and I pay $35.99 at petsmart.com - they
run a sale now with free shipping on orders $50 or more, so two buckets
will run you $72. This is what I got when added two buckets to the cart:

How many gal. does that treat?

According to the manufacturer - 160 gallons, but all depends how
salty you like your reef water to be... I wonder if 160 gallons
made from a bucket of IO salt will have the same salinity than
200 gallons of water made of a bucket of Tropic Marin... Do they
list the same specific gravity of the resulting salt?

Austin TX. I'm paying $71 + tax for a 5 gal bucket of Tropic Marin. I could
save by buying it through Marine Depot. Free shipping after $175 purchase.

Check again... :-)

There is $20 surcharge per bucket of salt on top of "free" shipping
@ Marinedepot.com - I do not see similar surcharge at petsmart.com
So assuming you need to buy 3 buckets of salt to get the free shipping
discount with $60 surcharge, 600 gallons will cost you:

Salt 3x $68.99 = $206.97
Shipping+Insurance = $ 61.05
Total = $268.02

For less than that ($267.68), you can have 7 buckets of Instant Ocean
salt from PetSmart.com, tax included, which gives you 7x160 = 1120 gallons
of sal****er. This is a lot of sal****er :-) And at petsmart.com you
do not need to commit almost $300 to this order, you can order just
2 buckets... :-) Also, if you do not want to wait for shipping, you
can print the website offer from petsmart.com and bring it to the
store in your city - the store will match their website price + tax
on any product, salt including. I have done this myself many times
when there was no free shipping sale and shipping would cost more than
buying from the store.

But the price of the salt, I don't believe, is the issue anymore.
It's the nitrates.

It was nitrates since the beginning... water changes are just temp remedy
which will have to continue untill you come up with long term solution.

salt
 

stay tuned I'm getting some technical answers

salt
 

I talked to Rain Soft and the LFS. Both concurred that leaving the softener
on will extend the life of the membrane in the RO canister as it reduces the
hardness grains from 10 grains to zero.. The exchange in ions results in 75
mg of sodium per qt of water. If that amount is a concern we could switch
from salt to potassium.

The LFS said the RO is more than adequate. I really don't think the source
water is causing any problem, but...

The advice from the LFS was. Take out the bio balls and replace with live
rock. The owner of the store said that the canister in actually the main
problem (gee, you think they would of said so when I bought it). I'm taking
out the Bio Balls and I'll keep a close eye on it. If it doesn't solve the
problem I'll switch to a sump system.

Bought another 5 gal bucket of salt today. I hope it last more than a month.

Thanks for your help. :-)

High Nitrates salt
 

"Wayne Sallee" wrote in message
...
Yes, get rid of the bioballs, slowly.

What type of substrate do you have? It's best to have a fine calcium sand.
If you have calcium gravel, you can put calcium sand on top of that.

I took out the BB. Replaced with live rock. Not sure what you meant by
slowly. I'll ask the LFS about my sand.

I did ask about adding more sand and they said that was an old remedy. But
it can release bubbles of nitrogen into the water. I didn't specify calcium
sand though. I'll ask the LFS next time I go~ which hopefully won't be soon.
Every time I go in that place I spend at least $70.

Wayne Sallee



jthread wrote on 10/23/2007 1:39 PM:
"Peter Pan" wrote in message
...
"jthread" wrote in message
...
"Peter Pan" wrote in message
. ..
Just curious, but why are doing so many water changes?

They are my wife's tanks but she kept killing the coral. So i started
checking the nitrates daily. The nitrates would go to 40 ppm every
couple of days. So I slowed down the feeding by 1/2 but it's still is
getting dirty too fast. Everything is healthy now but it's costing me a
small fortune in salt. I use RO water and it has been tested.

Any suggestions are welcome.

This guy is a member of this newsgroup and often has TONS of info,
here's one of his Nitrate article.. its very useful
http://www.melevsreef.com/reducing_nitrates.html

Also, how much water are you changing each time you do your partials?

Good luck

Thanks for the article. Sounds like I need a sump. We put our large reef
tank in a place that can't handle a sump but with some carpentry work I
might be able to put one in.

When I change water I do about 33%. When the nitrates were real high I
was doing 60 to 70% and it didn't seem to effect the fish or coral.

The 45 gal tank has a Eheim 2213 canister and a Remora Aqua C hang on
skimmer. The 29 gal tank has a false back with the filter system -: bio
balls, Sapphire skimmer, filter media, activated charcoal.

I noticed he said that Bio Balls cause nitrates! Yikes. I put bio balls
in the media chamber of the Aqua C. and they are in the false back too. I
wonder if I should find something else?

salt
 

If the nitrates gets high, but everything looks
fine, then you can just do normal scheduled water
changes.

It's a new tank, and you are a new reefer. So you
should take it slow on adding critters so that you
don't have to spend so much money on water changes.

Wayne Sallee



jthread wrote on 10/24/2007 1:57 PM:
I talked to Rain Soft and the LFS. Both concurred that leaving the softener
on will extend the life of the membrane in the RO canister as it reduces the
hardness grains from 10 grains to zero.. The exchange in ions results in 75
mg of sodium per qt of water. If that amount is a concern we could switch
from salt to potassium.

The LFS said the RO is more than adequate. I really don't think the source
water is causing any problem, but...

The advice from the LFS was. Take out the bio balls and replace with live
rock. The owner of the store said that the canister in actually the main
problem (gee, you think they would of said so when I bought it). I'm taking
out the Bio Balls and I'll keep a close eye on it. If it doesn't solve the
problem I'll switch to a sump system.

Bought another 5 gal bucket of salt today. I hope it last more than a month.

Thanks for your help. :-)