| Page 2 of 2 | 1 | 2 |
|
|
|
Overdriving NO Tubes
Almost every matter can change phase from state to liquid and gas
and all of it depends of the temperature. But I guess you call Argon "a true gas" because it has gas phase in a room temperature, right? :-) Ok, you want to go there :-) True gases are molecules not ions, O2, N2, CO2, Argon, Neon and they occur naturally as gas, you can't see them and most make up air. A gas also has a perfect molecular mobility and the indefinite property of expansion A vapor is not a gas really, it is quantity of visible matter diffused or suspended in air and air is made of gases. Vapors may occur as molecule or ions. Vapor does not =gas and gas does not = vapor Thus water or Mercury are not gases but vapors and using the term "gas" is using it loosely and not by its proper meaning . However, some do choose to do so but it is incorrect. You know what a MV lamp is, Mercury Vapor, it is not called a MG lamp because it is not a gas. Air does not have water gas in it, it is always called water vapor and there is a reason for that, it is not a gas. Think of vapor as a very find dust "But some of missunderstanding here can be derived from the fact, that English is my second language, as it was stated correctly on this ng recently :-))" I did not know that where are you from ? "Do I understand correctly you are saying design of gas discharge lamps are your profession?" No you do not understand correctly. Go back and re-read it. I said I know the guy that invented the tri-phosphor lamps, his name is Dr Perry Thrasher -- Boomer Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php Want to See More ? Please Join Our Growing Membership www.coralrealm.com If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up "Pszemol" wrote in message ... : "Boomer" wrote in message ... : "I was not talking about Argon but about "gases in the tube" :-))" : : OK, I'll let you off the hook since you say ""gases in the tube" , in which case the only : real "gas" is Mercury vapor and only Mercury vapor, with the very very small addition of : some of he emissive material being "gases". : : Ok, thank you for your mercy ;-) : : Aragon is a true gas and not a vapor. : : I do not like the "true gas" term... How do you define it? : Gas is gas :-) There is no true gas or false gas :-)) : Almost every matter can change phase from state to liquid and gas : and all of it depends of the temperature. But I guess you call Argon : "a true gas" because it has gas phase in a room temperature, right? :-) : : One other thing; : : "Plasma is ionized gas :-)))" : : Well, that is only half of it. :-)) A Plasma is a stream of positively charged : ions accompanied by about equal proportions of electrons : : By "ionized gas" I ment whole gas in state of ionizations. : No ions alone, but with electrons detached from original atoms too :-) : But some of missunderstanding here can be derived from the fact, : that English is my second language, as it was stated correctly : on this ng recently :-)) : : "I was also correct with the three-phosphors tubes " : : I know the guy personnel, that invented all of the tri lamps with the built in reflectors, : Dr. Perry Thrasher, know matter what name is on the bulb. Perry has left the company ,do : to illness and I haven't found out where he went other than California for health reasons. : Me and JB ( John Burleson) had the first sets :-) : : http://www.light-sources.com/ : : Do I understand correctly you are saying design of gas discharge lamps are your profession? |
Overdriving NO Tubes
Have you sent it for the 2nd time or you changed somthing I did not notice?
BTW - our discussion about vapors/gases reminds me one confusion with vegetables and fruits. For a biologist, a red tomato is a fruit, a part of the plant, the one carrying seeds. For a cook, a tomato is not a fruit. For a cook tomato is a vegetable... This is the difference we probably need to grasp when talking about vapors and gases :-) Vegetables used by the cook can be leaves, roots or fruits in the eyes of a biologist. Like for the cook, the "true fruit" is an apple or a plum for you "true gases" are oxygen, nitrogen but mercury in a gas form you call vapor. Cheers, Pszemol "Boomer" wrote in message ... Almost every matter can change phase from state to liquid and gas and all of it depends of the temperature. But I guess you call Argon "a true gas" because it has gas phase in a room temperature, right? :-) Ok, you want to go there :-) True gases are molecules not ions, O2, N2, CO2, Argon, Neon and they occur naturally as gas, you can't see them and most make up air. A gas also has a perfect molecular mobility and the indefinite property of expansion A vapor is not a gas really, it is quantity of visible matter diffused or suspended in air and air is made of gases. Vapors may occur as molecule or ions. Vapor does not =gas and gas does not = vapor Thus water or Mercury are not gases but vapors and using the term "gas" is using it loosely and not by its proper meaning . However, some do choose to do so but it is incorrect. You know what a MV lamp is, Mercury Vapor, it is not called a MG lamp because it is not a gas. Air does not have water gas in it, it is always called water vapor and there is a reason for that, it is not a gas. Think of vapor as a very find dust "But some of missunderstanding here can be derived from the fact, that English is my second language, as it was stated correctly on this ng recently :-))" I did not know that where are you from ? "Do I understand correctly you are saying design of gas discharge lamps are your profession?" No you do not understand correctly. Go back and re-read it. I said I know the guy that invented the tri-phosphor lamps, his name is Dr Perry Thrasher -- Boomer Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php Want to See More ? Please Join Our Growing Membership www.coralrealm.com If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up "Pszemol" wrote in message ... : "Boomer" wrote in message ... : "I was not talking about Argon but about "gases in the tube" :-))" : : OK, I'll let you off the hook since you say ""gases in the tube" , in which case the only : real "gas" is Mercury vapor and only Mercury vapor, with the very very small addition of : some of he emissive material being "gases". : : Ok, thank you for your mercy ;-) : : Aragon is a true gas and not a vapor. : : I do not like the "true gas" term... How do you define it? : Gas is gas :-) There is no true gas or false gas :-)) : Almost every matter can change phase from state to liquid and gas : and all of it depends of the temperature. But I guess you call Argon : "a true gas" because it has gas phase in a room temperature, right? :-) : : One other thing; : : "Plasma is ionized gas :-)))" : : Well, that is only half of it. :-)) A Plasma is a stream of positively charged : ions accompanied by about equal proportions of electrons : : By "ionized gas" I ment whole gas in state of ionizations. : No ions alone, but with electrons detached from original atoms too :-) : But some of missunderstanding here can be derived from the fact, : that English is my second language, as it was stated correctly : on this ng recently :-)) : : "I was also correct with the three-phosphors tubes " : : I know the guy personnel, that invented all of the tri lamps with the built in reflectors, : Dr. Perry Thrasher, know matter what name is on the bulb. Perry has left the company ,do : to illness and I haven't found out where he went other than California for health reasons. : Me and JB ( John Burleson) had the first sets :-) : : http://www.light-sources.com/ : : Do I understand correctly you are saying design of gas discharge lamps are your profession? |
Overdriving NO Tubes
What do you mean by "putting out 130 watts"?
You rather say "consumes 130 watts". You do not measure the light output in watts. This is an electric not light output unit... Good point. I talked to him again and asked him about that. The guy that he knows measured the OUTPUT of the lights. (with a photometer) I cant remember if it was 6000 lumens for the fixture or for each bulb (I'm pretty sure it was each) Anyway, the guy that he knows did the mathmatical conversion and concluded the lights were using 130watts. After 1 year, the bulbs are barely darkened on the ends and HE has not noticed a change in the color. I may not try this for my first corals but I am most certainly going to try this for my FW tanks. |
Overdriving NO Tubes
"Richard Reynolds" wrote in message news:pHt2b.10674$Qy4.1956@fed1read05...
What do you mean by "putting out 130 watts"? You rather say "consumes 130 watts". You do not measure the light output in watts. This is an electric not light output unit... watts has nothing to do with electric anything, it is a measurement of power, it can be manythings, candlepower,horsepower .... they can all be converted to watts I was not talking about watts generally but in the context of this particular subject - watts printed of the bulb or balast are not the measurment of the amount of light in that case but the estimated amount of electric power the bulb consumes. To get an idea about the amount of light you need to consider the ratio the electric current is converted into light in such design. And it is far from 100%. We do not even know if the balast for 130W VHO does output equal amount of electric power to the NO bulb in overdriving conditions or not. There are chanses it does if the lenght of the tube and its thicknes is the same, but as Boomer has indicated, things are going "crazy" inside the tube, so it my behave different creating different electrical conditions for the tube being the load for the balast. Good point. I talked to him again and asked him about that. The guy that he knows measured the OUTPUT of the lights. (with a photometer) I cant remember if it was 6000 lumens for the fixture or for each bulb (I'm pretty sure it was each) Anyway, the guy that he knows did the mathmatical conversion and concluded the lights were using 130watts. thats an interesting calculation and interesting wording, but as I didnt do the testing I dont know whats missing from it :) I would suggest to Mort to invite the guy to our newsgroup and ask him to explain results of his tests here... I will be very interesting to talk about this first hand. The difference between 6000 lumens each or 6000 the whole fixture is significant enough that if we do not have this "detail" sorted our we cannot treat this test as educational for us :-) After 1 year, the bulbs are barely darkened on the ends and HE has not noticed a change in the color. noticing spectrum shifts isnt very effective, you really need special equipment Exactly. Human eye adapts to white color in very wide ranges. It is enough to compare to white pages of different paper types. Both seem white when you look at each separately, but you can easily tell which one is "whiter" when you put them side-by-side. I may not try this for my first corals but I am most certainly going to try this for my FW tanks. the best plan Ive heard of yet :), might add FO to the list also :) This plan does not bring us closer to use overdriven NO over reef, where the light spectrum is really important, does it? |
Overdriving NO Tubes
"Pszemol" wrote in message ... "Richard Reynolds" wrote in message news:pHt2b.10674$Qy4.1956@fed1read05... What do you mean by "putting out 130 watts"? You rather say "consumes 130 watts". You do not measure the light output in watts. This is an electric not light output unit... watts has nothing to do with electric anything, it is a measurement of power, it can be manythings, candlepower,horsepower .... they can all be converted to watts I was not talking about watts generally but in the context of this particular subject - watts printed of the bulb or balast are not the measurment of the amount of light in that case but the estimated amount of electric power the bulb consumes. To get an idea about the amount of light you need to consider the ratio the electric current is converted into light in such design. And it is far from 100%. We do not even know if the balast for 130W VHO does output equal amount of electric power to the NO bulb in overdriving conditions or not. There are chanses it does if the lenght of the tube and its thicknes is the same, but as Boomer has indicated, things are going "crazy" inside the tube, so it my behave different creating different electrical conditions for the tube being the load for the balast. Good point. I talked to him again and asked him about that. The guy that he knows measured the OUTPUT of the lights. (with a photometer) I cant remember if it was 6000 lumens for the fixture or for each bulb (I'm pretty sure it was each) Anyway, the guy that he knows did the mathmatical conversion and concluded the lights were using 130watts. thats an interesting calculation and interesting wording, but as I didnt do the testing I dont know whats missing from it :) I would suggest to Mort to invite the guy to our newsgroup and ask him to explain results of his tests here... I will be very interesting to talk about this first hand. The difference between 6000 lumens each or 6000 the whole fixture is significant enough that if we do not have this "detail" sorted our we cannot treat this test as educational for us :-) After 1 year, the bulbs are barely darkened on the ends and HE has not noticed a change in the color. noticing spectrum shifts isnt very effective, you really need special equipment Exactly. Human eye adapts to white color in very wide ranges. It is enough to compare to white pages of different paper types. Both seem white when you look at each separately, but you can easily tell which one is "whiter" when you put them side-by-side. I may not try this for my first corals but I am most certainly going to try this for my FW tanks. the best plan Ive heard of yet :), might add FO to the list also :) This plan does not bring us closer to use overdriven NO over reef, where the light spectrum is really important, does it? Wow, if I didn't know better, I would think you were really aggressive =P I will see if I can get this guy to tell the other guy to come to our NG here to discuss this. But you better be nice to him! lol ~Mort |
Overdriving NO Tubes
"Mort" wrote in message y.com...
Wow, if I didn't know better, I would think you were really aggressive =P No, I am :soaked: with friendliness to you guys ;-) I will see if I can get this guy to tell the other guy to come to our NG here to discuss this. But you better be nice to him! lol I could promisse I will try, but you already know that I will probably fail ;-) |
Overdriving NO Tubes
I have no scientific data, but I have been using NO 6500k bulbs from
Lowes/menards/HD for 3 0r 4 years on low light tanks on an Ice Cap ballast. My corals grow well with good color. Tanks are appealing to the eye. Bulbs are 10x cheaper and I replace them every 6 months or when ever I remember to. I usually run a 50/50 mix of 6500k and 03actinic... Now, with that said .. anything but 400watt halides suck ! ;-p Sakis rule! especially when ya use 20kk radiums as actinics(Only usefull as supplimental lighting IMHO) .. Ill save the money and buy the cheap bulbs for my low light tanks and save the money for all of the 400s that I run |
Overdriving NO Tubes
"Anyway, the guy that he knows did the mathmatical
conversion and concluded the lights were using 130watts." I would like to have him show me that trick, as you can't. A bulb could be 6,000 lumens and be 100 watts or 6,000 lumens and 200 Watts. I think you misunderstood what he was saying. 1 watt at 555 nm = 683 lumens and different nm will give a different lumen. But then again if he was using a radiometric spectrophometer he could measure the output of different nm ranges and convert to lumens, as each nm value would have a different peak wattage and adding them up would tell you how many watts of light are being produced or delivered from the but not what the lights were using. It takes wattage to just get the bulb going before there is any light produced. -- Boomer Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php Want to See More ? Please Join Our Growing Membership www.coralrealm.com If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up "Mort" wrote in message y.com... : What do you mean by "putting out 130 watts"? : You rather say "consumes 130 watts". You do not measure the light : output in watts. This is an electric not light output unit... : : : Good point. I talked to him again and asked him about that. The guy that : he knows measured the OUTPUT of the lights. (with a photometer) I cant : remember if it was 6000 lumens for the fixture or for each bulb (I'm pretty : sure it was each) Anyway, the guy that he knows did the mathmatical : conversion and concluded the lights were using 130watts. : : After 1 year, the bulbs are barely darkened on the ends and HE has not : noticed a change in the color. : : I may not try this for my first corals but I am most certainly going to try : this for my FW tanks. : : : : : |
Overdriving NO Tubes
"Boomer" wrote in message ...
Yes Pszemol, the actual watts of light a bulb produces is way below its "power consumption wattage." A 100 watt bulb of x type may only produce 40 watts of light So bad? Only 40%? What could be the max efficiency of MH light source? |
Overdriving NO Tubes
"Boomer" wrote in message ... "Anyway, the guy that he knows did the mathmatical conversion and concluded the lights were using 130watts." I would like to have him show me that trick, as you can't. A bulb could be 6,000 lumens and be 100 watts or 6,000 lumens and 200 Watts. I think you misunderstood what he was saying. 1 watt at 555 nm = 683 lumens and different nm will give a different lumen. But then again if he was using a radiometric spectrophometer he could measure the output of different nm ranges and convert to lumens, as each nm value would have a different peak wattage and adding them up would tell you how many watts of light are being produced or delivered from the but not what the lights were using. It takes wattage to just get the bulb going before there is any light produced. -- Boomer Well, this is way over my head. I'm gonna keep my mouth shut until he shows up. Then you can bite HIS head off! =) ~Mort |
Overdriving NO Tubes
That would depend on allot of things, e.g. ballast, what " soft silver metals"are being,
ratios of those, metals, bulb type and size of lamp(wattage),etc. and do we only include visible light. In short here is an example of a common MH lamp ..........hmmmmm can't find my MH one Psz, so a 2 lamp one will have to suffice and it is scary. Lets say I under estimated it :-) A MH would be close. Energy Emission 4-foot GTE 40W T-12 UV = 0.16 W Violet = .72 WW Blue =1.98W Green = 2.35W Yellow -1.74 W Orange = 1.69W Red 0.18W Total watts of light delivered = 9.45 W = 100 % or 25 % of the 40 W is for just light and the other 75 % or 30 W is to drive it, plus it by-products. And in the other post I said 40 % for light 60 % to drive it And to add some more from a similar lamp but divided up with more meaning 100 % = 40 W 60 % UV, 24 W, that gives 21 % light + and an additional light of 2 % from the original input energy for a total = 23 % or 9.3W 38 % heat from the original input and 39 % heat from the UV for a total of 77 % using 30.7 W Of that 77 % , 36 % is infrared , 14.4 W and 41 % is convection and conduction for heat at 16.3 W So 77 % for heat and IR and 23 % actual light 16.3 + 14 .4 + 9.3 = 9.3 W of actual light -- Boomer Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php Want to See More ? Please Join Our Growing Membership www.coralrealm.com If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up "Pszemol" wrote in message ... : "Boomer" wrote in message ... : Yes Pszemol, the actual watts of light a bulb produces is way below its : "power consumption wattage." : A 100 watt bulb of x type may only produce 40 watts of light : : So bad? Only 40%? What could be the max efficiency of MH light source? |
Overdriving NO Tubes
Thanks - if you ever find similar detailed info for MH I would appreciate this.
"Boomer" wrote in message ... That would depend on allot of things, e.g. ballast, what " soft silver metals"are being, ratios of those, metals, bulb type and size of lamp(wattage),etc. and do we only include visible light. In short here is an example of a common MH lamp .........hmmmmm can't find my MH one Psz, so a 2 lamp one will have to suffice and it is scary. Lets say I under estimated it :-) A MH would be close. Energy Emission 4-foot GTE 40W T-12 UV = 0.16 W Violet = .72 WW Blue =1.98W Green = 2.35W Yellow -1.74 W Orange = 1.69W Red 0.18W Total watts of light delivered = 9.45 W = 100 % or 25 % of the 40 W is for just light and the other 75 % or 30 W is to drive it, plus it by-products. And in the other post I said 40 % for light 60 % to drive it And to add some more from a similar lamp but divided up with more meaning 100 % = 40 W 60 % UV, 24 W, that gives 21 % light + and an additional light of 2 % from the original input energy for a total = 23 % or 9.3W 38 % heat from the original input and 39 % heat from the UV for a total of 77 % using 30.7 W Of that 77 % , 36 % is infrared , 14.4 W and 41 % is convection and conduction for heat at 16.3 W So 77 % for heat and IR and 23 % actual light 16.3 + 14 .4 + 9.3 = 9.3 W of actual light |
Overdriving NO Tubes
Yes, let me know if you like them. I had no issues with them at all.
Marc wrote: Mark: I have seen the Phillips 6500K bulbs at Home Depot here in Halifax, Nova Scotia. I bought two the other day for $5.99! I'm going to try them on my Icecap 660. I'll run two of the Phillips 6500K (Alto series I think) with two URI super actinics. I'll keep everone posted of my progress. On Mon, 08 Sep 2003 23:54:15 GMT, Marc Levenson wrote: Mort, VHO bulbs must be replaced every six months. So if you want to save some money you can buy Sylvania or Philips 6500K bulbs at Home Depot or Lowes for ~$4.50 each. Great price. IceCap ballasts will overdrive them from 40w to 110w each, but it will shorten their useable lifespan. In six months, their usefullness is over. But that is okay!! It's time to replace them anyway. If you don't change out your bulbs on schedule, you can end up with older bulbs that shift in color spectrum which fuel algae outbreaks. VHO - 6 months MH & PC - 12 months. Marc -- Personal Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com/oanda/index.html Business Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com Marine Hobbyist: http://www.melevsreef.com |
Overdriving NO Tubes
"Mort" wrote in message y.com... Is anyone here familiar with overdriving NO fluorescent tubes? I met a DIYer today (Marc, that's the guy I told you about with those5 stage RO/DI units) that does this to his lamps. Apparently you replace the balast with a higher output Electronic ballast (About $10 from home depot) and it can double even triple the wattage of the bulb. It operates at a higher frequency and does not shorten the life of the bulb much at all. He's had a setup with a twin 30w 36" fixture that with this balast is putting out 130watts after 1 year. Will this trickery work for marine aquaria and corals??? ~Mort For anyone who is interested, I just finished overdriving a small fixture for a freshwater tank. The difference is amazing. However, I do not care for the color of these cheap bulbs. Part of the problem is that they are 15" tubes so my selection is very limited at the hardware store. All I could find out about these buls is that they are "cool white" but overdriven in a tank they are yellow, almost green. Anyway, I can pick up some 18,000K bulbs for $10ea or get the "aqua-glo" again for $10/ea. I know this info really isnt that useful for reefs (my apologies) but I figured I'd follow up for archiving purposes. HTH ~Mort |
Overdriving NO Tubes
overdriven
in a tank they are yellow, almost green. Mort, you seem to getting the same results I did some time back. If I may ask - what sort of ballast are you using? That's kinda the difference between King Marc's experience and mine. I used the PFO electronic while he used the Icecap I believe. James |
Overdriving NO Tubes
"Acrylics" wrote in message ... overdriven in a tank they are yellow, almost green. Mort, you seem to getting the same results I did some time back. If I may ask - what sort of ballast are you using? That's kinda the difference between King Marc's experience and mine. I used the PFO electronic while he used the Icecap I believe. James Hi James, I used one from the hardware store mfg by Sylvania. Again, the only thing I know about the bulbs is that they are "cool white" I have no idea what their actual Kelvin rating is. I found some 15" bulbs at an LFS that are 18,000K. I think I am going to try them. ~Mort |
Overdriving NO Tubes
snip
Again, the only thing I know about the bulbs is that they are "cool white" I have no idea what their actual Kelvin rating is. /snip I just found it on-line. The color rating is 4200K ~Mort |
Overdriving NO Tubes
Mort, what type of ballast are you using to light your bulbs? That is what
James was asking, not the bulb. Marc Mort wrote: I used one from the hardware store mfg by Sylvania. Again, the only thing I know about the bulbs is that they are "cool white" I have no idea what their actual Kelvin rating is. I found some 15" bulbs at an LFS that are 18,000K. I think I am going to try them. ~Mort -- Personal Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com/oanda/index.html Business Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com Marine Hobbyist: http://www.melevsreef.com |
Overdriving NO Tubes
"Marc Levenson" wrote in message
... Mort, what type of ballast are you using to light your bulbs? That is what James was asking, not the bulb. Marc Oops, sorry I did not explain it well enough. The ballast is mfg by Sylvania. It is a 4X32 Electronic ballast (4 bulbs, 32 Watts ea). I am running 2 14 watt bulbs with it. If you guys want the model # I can get it for you. Lemme know. =) ~Mort |
Overdriving NO Tubes
I posted some pics in alt.binaries.aquaria is anyone is interested.
Or you can read a summerized post with pics in a cichlid forum that I participate in... http://www.amateurcichlids.com/cgi-b...dware;action=d isplay;num=1063257779 HTH ~Mort |
Overdriving NO Tubes
"Mort" wrote in message . com...
I posted some pics in alt.binaries.aquaria is anyone is interested. Or you can read a summerized post with pics in a cichlid forum that I participate in... http://www.amateurcichlids.com/cgi-b...m=1063257 779 My favorite is the 2nd mixture :-) |
Overdriving NO Tubes
I don't know if this will help at all but I'm overdriving NO bulbs on my 46
gallon reef and love the results. I'm using a ballast I found at lowes that is for driving 2 95w 8 foot HO bulbs, I'm running it on 2 36" NO bulbs and estimating about 150w of lighting now. I'm using one 03 actinic and one 10000K bulb with great results. my mushrooms and my trumpet coral love me for it. and the best part is the ballast was only $40. "Pszemol" wrote in message ... "Mort" wrote in message . com... I posted some pics in alt.binaries.aquaria is anyone is interested. Or you can read a summerized post with pics in a cichlid forum that I participate in... http://www.amateurcichlids.com/cgi-b...m=1063257 779 My favorite is the 2nd mixture :-) |
Overdriving NO Tubes
Common sense seems to suggest that this may be a fire looking for a place to
happen. Any lighting or electrical gurus out there that can confirm or deny? "me.mine.yours" wrote in message om... I don't know if this will help at all but I'm overdriving NO bulbs on my 46 gallon reef and love the results. I'm using a ballast I found at lowes that is for driving 2 95w 8 foot HO bulbs, I'm running it on 2 36" NO bulbs and estimating about 150w of lighting now. I'm using one 03 actinic and one 10000K bulb with great results. my mushrooms and my trumpet coral love me for it. and the best part is the ballast was only $40. "Pszemol" wrote in message ... "Mort" wrote in message . com... I posted some pics in alt.binaries.aquaria is anyone is interested. Or you can read a summerized post with pics in a cichlid forum that I participate in... http://www.amateurcichlids.com/cgi-b...m=1063257 779 My favorite is the 2nd mixture :-) |
| All times are GMT +1. The time now is 01:08 AM. |
|
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FishKeepingBanter.com