| Page 2 of 2 | 1 | 2 |
|
|
|
What Are You Feeding & Where are You Buying Your Koi Food This Season?
On Fri, 07 Apr 2006 00:26:18 +0100, Gill Passman wrote:
OK, I hate to jump into this as well but....now I will certainly agree that there are fish foods as well as other pet foods on the market that do not contain as much fibre or filler - hmmm, aren't we all encouraged to eat fibre that we cannot digest as part of a healthy diet??? But we're omnivores, cats & dogs are carnivores, last I heard. ;o) Therefore pooping more than twice/day isn't necessary. On non-digestible fillers, a dog can poop up to 4 or more times/day. Personally I wish the fillers in my diet would go elsewhere if you know what I mean. ;) education is concerned...I don't think animals are any different... Hmmm, I think there are a few PhD's that would beg to differ, but I'm not going to argue their points. Way too over my head. ;) Now, I don't seem to remember anyone suggesting that they are buying cheap food full of fillers just alternative commercial options... Using dog food or cat chow was suggested at one point. the fish food for commercial use is cheaper because of the quantity it is purchased in...does it need to say Koi on the label??? Gill No guarantees, one has to read the label. "Koi" food, even high priced stuff, can have non-digestible filler in it. Corn being the biggest problem, in that the fish LOVE it, it is their equivalent to candy. That is why koivet says not to use a fish food with corn in the 1st three ingredients. There's no evil in giving them treats, after all, that's the fun part of having a fish pond, feeding the little piggies, and thinking we see them smile. Are we goofy or what? Now there is the worry of corn toxic fungus. I wonder if freezing would kill such fungus? ~ jan ~ jan/WA Zone 7a |
What Are You Feeding & Where are You Buying Your Koi Food This Season?
My little learning curve started when I started eating Atkins type foods and felt
immensely better. Then I got asthma and tested out allergic to wheat and corn. pffft. Then I inherited my mothers dog HoneyChild who was allergic to everything except the fish and potato dog food. Then Harry P our springer was flaking, itching and getting hot spots on purina. HoneyChild developed congestive heart disease from lousy crudded up teeth and 1500 bucks later we took home a half dead dog and put her on "heart" and "kidney" diet which she was allergic to. She was harking nearly all the time, she lost almost all her fur and what was left was like straw. and they gave her 6 mo- 1 year (this was May of last year) I said this is total bull**** and decided to go to a species appropriate diet for all the dogs. Honey gets raw whole fish, the rest get raw meaty bone whatever is cheapest and on sale at a local discount grocery. Harry recovered, Honey recovered and has a soft as silk thick coat again, no harking and if she drops dead tomorrow she will have had quality of life. No more foul breath or gummed up and loose teeth in my dogs. http://weloveteaching.com/mutts/mutts.htm While signed up with the raw feeding list I did some quick calculations on the price of regular dog food and raw meat. It is hard to know how much of regular dog food is corn or wheat or other cheap fillers, but plain old corn is really cheap and dog food really isnt. So I give Harry 1lb of meat, usually between 29-69 cents a pound. When stuff is on sale we buy 20-30 lbs at a time and toss it in the freezer. We also ask people on local list if they are emptying out their freeze burned meat to drop it off, likewise with venison, likewise people who fish. This also got me to thinking about ferrets and how our ferrets never lived much beyond 4 years which broke my heart, and I finally found a site where the guy started feeding his ferrets species appropriate foods, rabbits, and the ferrets started living well beyond 10 years. I started feeding my koi high quality food before the light bulb above went off, but since then I have learned that koi digest proteins and fats, and not carbohydrates. that they have pretty short intestines and that too much food at once just passes thru them cause they dont have a stomach. the bulkier and drier the food the less chance it will get digested too. soon after I started feeding them better food they quit whacking my water lilly. I only clean the mulm out of my veggie filter once a year in fall when I put the pond to bed. 4 feet down on the bottom of my pond I can still see the white tag that fell off the lily pot. so I guess I would rather pay for krill and fish meal and feed small amounts rather than pay a lot for large amounts of corn. Ingrid "G Pearce" wrote: - my cat had to go in for a operation and the vet gave us some "high end" food for her recovery - 3 days later we called him as she was passing almost no waste compared to before and we were worried something was wrong - he said the food we were feeding her before was loaded with filler and less nutrients that she could use - it was not medicated, just more expensive food because of less filler, ergo less waste to pass - I went to better food for the pond and now clean my upflow filter once a season rather than 3 to 4 times / season with same amount of food (my choice - I spoil my pets when they beg :~) ) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List at http://weloveteaching.com/puregold/ sign up: http://groups.google.com/groups/dir?...s=Group+lookup www.drsolo.com Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I receive no compensation for running the Puregold list or Puregold website. I do not run nor receive any money from the ads at the old Puregold site. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Zone 5 next to Lake Michigan |
What Are You Feeding & Where are You Buying Your Koi Food This Season?
Koi digest proteins and fats. these are contained in the little critters they have
evolved to feed on, the little worms, larvae, daphnia, etc. these little critters live on the algae and water plants, and the worms are usually in the mud which is why they root in plant pots and on the bottom. The algae they eat meets their "green" needs, but algae is structurally completely different from land plants with all that cellulose. the problem with all that excess "poop" is that it is very rich in nutrients that bacteria break down into wastes that foul the water. the poop of a healthy fish is not "seen" hanging from their butt or sitting in strings on the bottom. It is supposed to disintegrate when it hits the water (mostly seen in fish tanks). the commercial fish food is cheap because it is "just" good enough to fatten up the fish for one year and then they are "meat". there is no concern for long term health. actually, anyone can buy fish food by buying krill in bulk. the breeders in China specifically raise all kinds of live foods like blood worms, black worms to feed the pond raised fish. they power feed them species appropriate foods to get them large very fast. Ingrid Gill Passman wrote: a natural balanced diet contains protein, roughage, vitamins, minerals etc in fact fibre is seen as a very posititive thing for our well being and the health issues without it are quite significant - it might suit us if our pets poop a little less but I very much doubt that it is beneficial to their health....our medics would be in a panic if we didn't produce sufficient waste products diagnosing all sorts of stuff...over here, in the UK, the more regular and sufficient quantity the better (without wanting to get gross) for our health as far as our medics and health education is concerned...I don't think animals are any different... Now, I don't seem to remember anyone suggesting that they are buying cheap food full of fillers just alternative commercial options...the fish food for commercial use is cheaper because of the quantity it is purchased in...does it need to say Koi on the label??? or is that just another marketing ploy....if the fish are breeding and healthy and have good colour do we need to take issue just because of a labelling issue???? Gill ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List at http://weloveteaching.com/puregold/ sign up: http://groups.google.com/groups/dir?...s=Group+lookup www.drsolo.com Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I receive no compensation for running the Puregold list or Puregold website. I do not run nor receive any money from the ads at the old Puregold site. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Zone 5 next to Lake Michigan |
What Are You Feeding & Where are You Buying Your Koi Food This Season?
no. the toxin contamination occurs in the corn prior to processing. and rancid oils
are also toxic. Ingrid ~ janj wrote: Now there is the worry of corn toxic fungus. I wonder if freezing would kill such fungus? ~ jan ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List at http://weloveteaching.com/puregold/ sign up: http://groups.google.com/groups/dir?...s=Group+lookup www.drsolo.com Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I receive no compensation for running the Puregold list or Puregold website. I do not run nor receive any money from the ads at the old Puregold site. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Zone 5 next to Lake Michigan |
What Are You Feeding & Where are You Buying Your Koi Food This Season?
no. the toxin contamination occurs in the corn prior to processing. and rancid oils
are also toxic. Ingrid I assume the no, is directed at freezing won't kill, dang! 1st statement is a worry, in that this toxic corn could end up in any feed. Bummer. ~ jan ~ jan/WA Zone 7a |
What Are You Feeding & Where are You Buying Your Koi Food This Season?
On Fri, 07 Apr 2006 00:26:18 +0100, Gill Passman
wrote: G Pearce wrote: I hate to jump into this thread as it is a pretty passionate one here - I have to agree with Jan as I went thru the same experience as Jan a few years ago - my cat had to go in for a operation and the vet gave us some "high end" food for her recovery - 3 days later we called him as she was passing almost no waste compared to before and we were worried something was wrong - he said the food we were feeding her before was loaded with filler and less nutrients that she could use - it was not medicated, just more expensive food because of less filler, ergo less waste to pass - I went to better food for the pond and now clean my upflow filter once a season rather than 3 to 4 times / season with same amount of food (my choice - I spoil my pets when they beg :~) ) Gale :~) OK, I hate to jump into this as well but....now I will certainly agree that there are fish foods as well as other pet foods on the market that do not contain as much fibre or filler - hmmm, aren't we all encouraged to eat fibre that we cannot digest as part of a healthy diet??? and doesn't this apply to the health of our fish as well....a natural balanced diet contains protein, roughage, vitamins, minerals etc in fact fibre is seen as a very posititive thing for our well being and the health issues without it are quite significant - it might suit us if our pets poop a little less but I very much doubt that it is beneficial to their health....our medics would be in a panic if we didn't produce sufficient waste products diagnosing all sorts of stuff...over here, in the UK, the more regular and sufficient quantity the better (without wanting to get gross) for our health as far as our medics and health education is concerned...I don't think animals are any different... Now, I don't seem to remember anyone suggesting that they are buying cheap food full of fillers just alternative commercial options...the fish food for commercial use is cheaper because of the quantity it is purchased in...does it need to say Koi on the label??? or is that just another marketing ploy....if the fish are breeding and healthy and have good colour do we need to take issue just because of a labelling issue???? Gill As we should be doing when we shop for food for ourselves, we need to be reading ingredients labels. Then comparing equivalent brands by price. -- Mister Gardener |
What Are You Feeding & Where are You Buying Your Koi Food This Season?
~ janj wrote:
On the side of the cheap-food feeders, there's the argument that nobody here has a koi in the 50 year age range :-) My opinion? I'm cheap, I spend as little as I can when I shop for myself, and the fish aren't any better then me. If one really wants or needs to be cheap, lower the fish load and they can live off what falls, crawls, flies, jumps or grows in the pond. ;o) ~ jan That's essentially my policy. I only feed the fish for _my_ enjoyment, and then not much. They do get more food from the pond than from me (and yet I've never had a problem with koi eating the plants, which surprises me). -- derek |
What Are You Feeding & Where are You Buying Your Koi Food This Season?
correct, freezing wont do anything.
corn for human consumption must undergo a lot more rigorous examination. altho we know about this last batch of food, I wonder how much "low dose" of the toxin is found in dog food. it seems a LOT of dogs get cancer. does cat food contain corn? do cats get much cancer? Ingrid ~ janj wrote: no. the toxin contamination occurs in the corn prior to processing. and rancid oils are also toxic. Ingrid I assume the no, is directed at freezing won't kill, dang! 1st statement is a worry, in that this toxic corn could end up in any feed. Bummer. ~ jan ~ jan/WA Zone 7a ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List at http://weloveteaching.com/puregold/ sign up: http://groups.google.com/groups/dir?...s=Group+lookup www.drsolo.com Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I receive no compensation for running the Puregold list or Puregold website. I do not run nor receive any money from the ads at the old Puregold site. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Zone 5 next to Lake Michigan |
What Are You Feeding & Where are You Buying Your Koi Food This Season?
Cancer is what my cat (mentioned above in thread) had and eventually died
from, we used to feed our cats Purina brand food. Purina seems to have a lot of corn in all of their different pet foods. We are now feeding them Iams Multi Cat ("corn grits" are listed as 3rd ingredient) Getting back to the fish, when I started ponding 13 yrs ago, I was using Purina Trout Chow -1st ingredient, I believe was corn, but I think it was all the fish byproducts and oils that were the problem - my 1st 2 koi went from 3" to 18" in 3 yrs and died with no visible problems. The 3rd koi from that group died the following year of nothing visible other than it went totally blind When I started to ask around as to why, I was directed to a koi farm to ask . The first question was "what are you feeding them?" With the Purina Trout Chow answer, the koi breeder asked me how long do I think I would live if I ate at McDonalds 3 meals / day, 7 days a week. He said they use some trout chow sparingly to put some size on their koi until their first cull, then high quality food to bring out the colours and for health. He also said the "Chow" was formulated for trout, catfish and salmon farms to get the fish large enough for market as quickly as possible, typically 13 months. The effect it has on their internal organs is of no interest to them jme Gale :~) found in dog food. it seems a LOT of dogs get cancer. does cat food contain corn? do cats get much cancer? Ingrid ~ janj wrote: no. the toxin contamination occurs in the corn prior to processing. and rancid oils are also toxic. Ingrid I assume the no, is directed at freezing won't kill, dang! 1st statement is a worry, in that this toxic corn could end up in any feed. Bummer. ~ jan ~ jan/WA Zone 7a ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List at http://weloveteaching.com/puregold/ sign up: http://groups.google.com/groups/dir?...s=Group+lookup www.drsolo.com Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I receive no compensation for running the Puregold list or Puregold website. I do not run nor receive any money from the ads at the old Puregold site. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Zone 5 next to Lake Michigan |
What Are You Feeding & Where are You Buying Your Koi Food This Season?
"Altum" wrote in message . com... BTW, you should see the pictures of livers from discus fed on beef heart in his book. The livers are huge, not functioning properly, and filled with fat globules. Animal fats are very bad for fish and both dog and cat foods contain a lot of animal fat. Anyone feeding cat or dog food had a look at their fishes livers? Can you prove you're not doing long-term damage to your fish? How can we prove any of the feeds aren't doing long-term damage to our fish? How many of us can afford to feed them fresh shrimp, scallops and other sea foods from the local stores? Have you any idea what seafood costs? Paying a premium price for koi food is no guarantee it doesn't contain something harmful or was stored correctly BEFORE we purchased it. Also, how can we know what's really in it? And no, looking healthy and spawning for even a decade is NOT a good indicator of liver health in an animal that should have a 100-year lifespan. Nor is paying $5 to $10 a lb for koi food. In just the past 8 years it went from GF (or example) being mainly vegetarians to GF being mainly carnivorous. First I read that they can't digest meaty foods and now the story is they can't digest starches or carbohydrates. Next year they'll be omnivorous or maybe grainivorous.... or so someone will claim. ;-) I've learned to take it all with a grain of salt as they say. Just look at the decades long but still shortened lifespan of alcoholic humans with cirrhosis. There's no comparison. Drunks seldom eat anything like a normal diet or even know or care what they eat or if they eat. As long as they have their *fix* on hand. No one is giving their fish alcohol. :-) Sorry. I'll go back to patching my pond liner now. Everyone has an opinion worth hearing. -- Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995... Aquariums since 1952 My Pond & Aquarium Pages: http://tinyurl.com/9do58 ~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o |
What Are You Feeding & Where are You Buying Your Koi Food This Season?
On Fri, 07 Apr 2006 08:09:28 GMT, Altum wrote:
BTW, you should see the pictures of livers from discus fed on beef heart in his book. The livers are huge, not functioning properly, and filled with fat globules. Animal fats are very bad for fish and both dog and cat foods contain a lot of animal fat. Anyone feeding cat or dog food had a look at their fishes livers? Lots of the fishvets have, that teach the courses to the AKCA Koi Health Advisors. Why I try to encourage people not to feed that stuff, to read labels, etc. IMHO, If money is an issue, it would be better to lower the fish load, and only use a good quality processed food as a treat when you go out an visit the fish. They can live off the pond, if it is large enough, planted & established. Not to mention this will lower the maintenance on the filter. ~ jan ~ jan/WA Zone 7a |
What Are You Feeding & Where are You Buying Your Koi Food ThisSeason?
Koi-Lo wrote:
Everyone has an opinion worth hearing. I doubt you realize it, but that's an incredibly condescending statement. You are confusing opinion with the science that Ingrid and I are trying to present. If you choose to wear blinders and not read veterinary articles and aquaculture literature that's your choice. If you did, you would learn that trout chow and catfish chow are developed for aquacultured trout and catfish, not pet koi. They are designed to provide the cheapest possible food that provides short-term health, rapid growth, and palatable flesh when the fish reaches someone's dinner table. That's not the usual goal for pet fish. I'm sure your fish are fine, but they're not likely to have the same long-term health and extensive lifespan of fish fed diets that have been optimized for koi. My OPINION is that keeping five koi on a diet optimized for health and longevity is preferable to keeping fifty koi on cheap catfish and trout chow. -- Put the word aquaria in the subject to reply. Did you read the FAQ? http://faq.thekrib.com |
What Are You Feeding & Where are You Buying Your Koi Food This Season?
"Altum" wrote in message . net... Koi-Lo wrote: Everyone has an opinion worth hearing. I doubt you realize it, but that's an incredibly condescending statement. You are confusing opinion with the science that Ingrid and I are trying to present. It's not condescending. It's the truth. Everyone's opinion is worth hearing. This isn't a communist country. :-)) Science? Have you any peer reviewed studies done on koi and their feeding here in the USA? Studies done with control groups and by people with no vested interest in any feed company in any way? I honestly looked on the net months ago and came up with nothing. Nothing but anecdotes and the glowing claims made by those selling such products. If you choose to wear blinders and not read veterinary articles and aquaculture literature that's your choice. If you did, you would learn that trout chow and catfish chow are developed for aquacultured trout and catfish, not pet koi. And yet koi thrive and reproduce on these feeds and I was unable to find anything ... see above. They are designed to provide the cheapest possible food that provides short-term health, rapid growth, and palatable flesh when the fish reaches someone's dinner table. That's not the usual goal for pet fish. I'm sure your fish are fine, but they're not likely to have the same long-term health and extensive lifespan of fish fed diets that have been optimized for koi. How many of us on this NG are going to still be here 100 years from now? If they live 75 years instead of 100 years I'll be happy. :-) My OPINION is that keeping five koi on a diet optimized for health and longevity is preferable to keeping fifty koi on cheap catfish and trout chow. And you're entitled to that opinion as those of us who use these cheaper feeds are entitled to ours. I don't think I'll be too concerned about my koi even 50 years from now. -- Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995... Aquariums since 1952 My Pond & Aquarium Pages: http://tinyurl.com/9do58 rec.pond's FAQ are at: http://www.geocities.com/justinm090/faq.html ~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o |
What Are You Feeding & Where are You Buying Your Koi Food This Season?
veeeery interesting. this dying "with no apparent reason" makes me NUTS. last 2 koi
died 3-4 years ago when I did the "post" on the freshest one all I found was wrong colored eggs ... meaning possible bacterial infection. that is when I netted over the veggie filter so the birds couldnt bathe in there. I dont think I have any fish left from my first batch of koi... the ones I fed crap rancid trout chow to before I learned better. I feel so bad about losing my first koi, raised em mostly in a 55 gallon tank. they were very friendly when they went into the pond. Ingrid "G Pearce" wrote: Cancer is what my cat (mentioned above in thread) had and eventually died from, we used to feed our cats Purina brand food. Purina seems to have a lot of corn in all of their different pet foods. We are now feeding them Iams Multi Cat ("corn grits" are listed as 3rd ingredient) Getting back to the fish, when I started ponding 13 yrs ago, I was using Purina Trout Chow -1st ingredient, I believe was corn, but I think it was all the fish byproducts and oils that were the problem - my 1st 2 koi went from 3" to 18" in 3 yrs and died with no visible problems. The 3rd koi from that group died the following year of nothing visible other than it went totally blind When I started to ask around as to why, I was directed to a koi farm to ask . The first question was "what are you feeding them?" With the Purina Trout Chow answer, the koi breeder asked me how long do I think I would live if I ate at McDonalds 3 meals / day, 7 days a week. He said they use some trout chow sparingly to put some size on their koi until their first cull, then high quality food to bring out the colours and for health. He also said the "Chow" was formulated for trout, catfish and salmon farms to get the fish large enough for market as quickly as possible, typically 13 months. The effect it has on their internal organs is of no interest to them jme Gale :~) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List at http://weloveteaching.com/puregold/ sign up: http://groups.google.com/groups/dir?...s=Group+lookup www.drsolo.com Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I receive no compensation for running the Puregold list or Puregold website. I do not run nor receive any money from the ads at the old Puregold site. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Zone 5 next to Lake Michigan |
What Are You Feeding & Where are You Buying Your Koi Food ThisSeason?
Koi-Lo wrote:
"Altum" wrote in message . net... Koi-Lo wrote: Everyone has an opinion worth hearing. I doubt you realize it, but that's an incredibly condescending statement. You are confusing opinion with the science that Ingrid and I are trying to present. It's not condescending. It's the truth. Everyone's opinion is worth hearing. This isn't a communist country. :-)) Science? Have you any peer reviewed studies done on koi and their feeding here in the USA? Studies done with control groups and by people with no vested interest in any feed company in any way? I honestly looked on the net months ago and came up with nothing. Nothing but anecdotes and the glowing claims made by those selling such products. If you choose to wear blinders and not read veterinary articles and aquaculture literature that's your choice. If you did, you would learn that trout chow and catfish chow are developed for aquacultured trout and catfish, not pet koi. And yet koi thrive and reproduce on these feeds and I was unable to find anything ... see above. They are designed to provide the cheapest possible food that provides short-term health, rapid growth, and palatable flesh when the fish reaches someone's dinner table. That's not the usual goal for pet fish. I'm sure your fish are fine, but they're not likely to have the same long-term health and extensive lifespan of fish fed diets that have been optimized for koi. How many of us on this NG are going to still be here 100 years from now? If they live 75 years instead of 100 years I'll be happy. :-) My OPINION is that keeping five koi on a diet optimized for health and longevity is preferable to keeping fifty koi on cheap catfish and trout chow. And you're entitled to that opinion as those of us who use these cheaper feeds are entitled to ours. I don't think I'll be too concerned about my koi even 50 years from now. Sorry. I totally misunderstood. At the risk of turning this into the thread that won't die...I typed "aquaculture koi carp diet" into Google Scholar and a bunch of stuff came up. I don't have time to try to go through the searches, but maybe there are some unbiased studies. I'm GLAD your fish are healthy. I tend to fawn over my pets, perhaps a bit too much. They probably eat better than I do. ;-) -- Put the word aquaria in the subject to reply. Did you read the FAQ? http://faq.thekrib.com |
What Are You Feeding & Where are You Buying Your Koi Food This Season?
wrote in message ... I dont think I have any fish left from my first batch of koi... the ones I fed crap rancid trout chow to before I learned better. ======= Even the $10 a lb koi chow can be rancid when you buy it depending on how it was handled between the place where it was made and your fish. I think it's fair to warn people to CHECK for rancidity no matter what the food costs. Price is no guarantee it was handled correctly before you purchase it. Since you evidently can prove it was rancid but you were unable to detect the rancidity for some reason, I assume you sued the feed co. for at least the value of your fish. -- Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995... Aquariums since 1952 My Pond & Aquarium Pages: http://tinyurl.com/9do58 ~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o |
What Are You Feeding & Where are You Buying Your Koi Food This Season?
On Fri, 7 Apr 2006 15:47:52 -0500, "Koi-Lo" wrote:
Have you any peer reviewed studies done on koi and their feeding here in the USA? See www.akca.org click on menu, click on Koi Health Advisor, click on KHA Nutrition. I will check with him to see if he knows of any "studies". ~ jan ----------------- (Do you know where your water quality is?) |
What Are You Feeding & Where are You Buying Your Koi Food This Season?
"~ janj" wrote in message ... On Fri, 7 Apr 2006 15:47:52 -0500, "Koi-Lo" wrote: Have you any peer reviewed studies done on koi and their feeding here in the USA? See www.akca.org click on menu, click on Koi Health Advisor, click on KHA Nutrition. Thanks, I saved it (the PDF) and hope to read it tomorrow. I will check with him to see if he knows of any "studies". ~ jan -- Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995... Aquariums since 1952 My Pond & Aquarium Pages: http://tinyurl.com/9do58 rec.pond's FAQ are at: http://www.geocities.com/justinm090/faq.html ~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o |
What Are You Feeding & Where are You Buying Your Koi Food This Season?
Excuse me Ingird,
Who, are saying these things. Documentation, pLease. As some one who keeps up with that is going on in the Aquaculture world, I have seen nothing of your claims. Plus I don't know of any product that is corn based (dog or fish), except one (for fish), and that is not easily available to the general public, you would have to know about it an go out of your way to purchase it, so that is probably not the case. Most corn products that are put into fish foods are corn glutein, which is high in protein and easily assimulated by fish and is very good for fish. So please, tell us of the research and/or documenation that supports what you have said about the liver problems, etc. Tom L.L. |
What Are You Feeding & Where are You Buying Your Koi Food This Season?
KOI-Lo
You may want to look to see if you have a Purina dealer in your area and if they will special order you some of the Purina AquaMax brand of fish food for your stock. It is an excellent food, although it is a little more expensive that regular catfish foods, around here it runs about $26 dollars for 50 poounds. I have not bought any this year, so don't know if there is a price increase, but figure there will be an increase in price. Fuel prices affect everything. If comes in in all sizes from powder to pellets, with some floating and sinking varieties. I get the sinking crumbles because I have only Goldfish. The AquaMax is a high protein food, but with the fish eating plant materials in the ponds during the summer it is good choice. I still buy Sho-Gold and feed it off and on through out the summer for variety. Tom L.L. |
What Are You Feeding & Where are You Buying Your Koi Food This Season?
Jan,
Some of the softer foods that are being manufactured now say not to freeze the food, but if you are using a "hard" food freezing is fine. The reason for the freeze band on some of the foods is for the oil separation, as you suspect, and the fact that some of these oils break down when frozen making them useless for fish nutrition.. Tom L.L. |
What Are You Feeding & Where are You Buying Your Koi Food This Season?
Altum,
I am off work today, so I did what you suggested, using the search you designated in Google Scholar, "aquaculture koi carp diet" and 149 hits were listed and not one supported anything that you said. That is not to say that what you said is not valid, but it does suggest that what without supporting documentation, it rates semi-close to an opinion, like several others on this list who depend as not needing to support their comments with research or quality documentation. Tom L.L. |
What Are You Feeding & Where are You Buying Your Koi Food This Season?
Ingrid,
In case you have forgotten, KOI and Goldfish are Omnivores. They process proteins and fats, but also process carbohydrates and therefore, starches. That is why they are Omnivores, and, oh yes, they eat algae and digest it. Tom L.L. |
What Are You Feeding & Where are You Buying Your Koi Food ThisSeason?
ranchu wrote:
Altum, I am off work today, so I did what you suggested, using the search you designated in Google Scholar, "aquaculture koi carp diet" and 149 hits were listed and not one supported anything that you said. That is not to say that what you said is not valid, but it does suggest that what without supporting documentation, it rates semi-close to an opinion, like several others on this list who depend as not needing to support their comments with research or quality documentation. Tom L.L. Well, let's see. First, you seem unwilling and/or unable to provide quotes so it's rather hard to tell which of my comments you're even talking about. Do you prefer vague flames to facts? I cited Untergasser, a well-known authority on fish health. Where are YOUR references. Hell, where's your netiquette? *plonk* (I suspect you're too dense to know what that means.) -- Put the word aquaria in the subject to reply. Did you read the FAQ? http://faq.thekrib.com |
What Are You Feeding & Where are You Buying Your Koi Food This Season?
Some of the softer foods that are being manufactured now say not to
freeze the food, but if you are using a "hard" food freezing is fine. The reason for the freeze ban on some of the foods is for the oil separation, as you suspect, and the fact that some of these oils break down when frozen making them useless for fish nutrition.. Do you know any more about this? I tried googling but I only found claims that some vege oils were not harmed by freezing. I can't imagine a mechanism unless its a combination of seperation and then oxidation? Just curious... |
What Are You Feeding & Where are You Buying Your Koi Food This Season?
Altum wrote:
*plonk* (I suspect you're too dense to know what that means.) Ahhh! It's so refreshing to be back to bashing each other over actual ponding issues! :-) -- derek |
What Are You Feeding & Where are You Buying Your Koi Food ThisSeason?
Derek Broughton wrote:
Altum wrote: *plonk* (I suspect you're too dense to know what that means.) Ahhh! It's so refreshing to be back to bashing each other over actual ponding issues! :-) ROFLMAO! Give me a coffee warning before you do that. Now I gotta clean the screen off. ;-) -- Put the word aquaria in the subject to reply. Did you read the FAQ? http://faq.thekrib.com |
What Are You Feeding & Where are You Buying Your Koi Food This Season?
Altum wrote:
Derek Broughton wrote: Altum wrote: *plonk* (I suspect you're too dense to know what that means.) Ahhh! It's so refreshing to be back to bashing each other over actual ponding issues! :-) ROFLMAO! Give me a coffee warning before you do that. Now I gotta clean the screen off. ;-) Sorry ! -- derek |
What Are You Feeding & Where are You Buying Your Koi Food ThisSeason?
Derek Broughton wrote:
Altum wrote: Derek Broughton wrote: Altum wrote: *plonk* (I suspect you're too dense to know what that means.) Ahhh! It's so refreshing to be back to bashing each other over actual ponding issues! :-) ROFLMAO! Give me a coffee warning before you do that. Now I gotta clean the screen off. ;-) Sorry ! No need to apologise....he,he |
What Are You Feeding & Where are You Buying Your Koi Food This...
Tetra Variety Pond Food is what I use.
I like the popcorn idea. |
What Are You Feeding & Where are You Buying Your Koi Food This ...
One of the articles I pointed out on the AKCA website was written and
taught to the KHA's by Chris Neaves. When I asked about a study he wrote up his views and told me I could post them. He does not work for any pet food manufacturing company. You can read about him he http://www.happykoi.co.za/Articles/3...s%20online.htm In Reply to: Koi Nutritional Studies posted by ~ jan on April 07: Posting: Hi Jan, I will try to keep a short story as long as possible!! Catfish and koi. Koi are not carp – yes they are coloured carp but – they are bred, raised and kept for their body shape, skin luster and colour. Koi are not raised as a food source where the only criteria are so many kilograms per hectare of water and weight of the end product. This means that the cheaper the input the more profit at the end of the day. A major cost in fish farming is food. Reduce the food costs and you can increase the profitability of the farm. (OK - we needed a degree in the obvious for that statement) Lets look at catfish compared directly to koi feeds. Farm-raised cat fish are fed grain based feeds to reduce costs. Catfish can utilize high percentages of carbohydrate in their diets. Koi can utilize some carbohydrate in the diet. Cat fish diets vary from manufacturer to manufacturer but usually contain about 35% corn (usually yellow corn which is cheaper) + about 22 – 23% wheat middlings, some 5 – 7% meat and bone meal and some 25% soyabean meal. That works out to about 60% carbohydrates. The yellow maize is a problem for koi keepers as it is a pigment that directly affects the white on our fish. The white back ground is one of the important points of appreciation on koi. All this carbohydrate produces digestible energy. As we humans know – excess energy that is not burned off results in fatty deposits in various parts of the body. This can shorten life spans. Cat fish diets contain about 2800 kcal/kg of digestible energy whereas koi diets should not and most good ones do not exceed around 1500 – 1600 kcal/kg of the diet. That’s a significant difference in energy in the diet. Lipids which are a vital and important source of essential Omega 3 and Omega 6 fatty are kept very low in cat food. Around 1 or 2%. Where as in koi diets lipids should be 5 – 8%. Some koi diets are kept at 3 – 5% but this is for shelf life. If we go deeper into cat fish diets against koi diets and look at the amino acid profile we find a big difference. Histidine – catfish diets 1.5 : koi diets 2.1. Valine catfish diets 3.0 but koi must have 3.6. Lysine cat fish are around 5.0 koi need 5.7. Methiomine – cat fish have 2.3 koi need 3.1. All significantly different and more importantly koi need more that cat fish feed. The vitamins are very important. Vitamin E is not only important in certain functions of the body but also used as an anti oxidant. In cat fish dies the level of Vit E is around 25mg/units/kg in koi it is 100mg. Vitamin A is essential for the skin, catfish diets have 1000 I.U.’s but koi diets have 8000 – 10000 I.U.’s. Vitamin B6 in cat fish food is around 3mg but in koi it is 6mg. Vitamin C – a very important vitamin is around 60mg in cat food but around 300mg in koi food. This is briefly some differences between koi food and catfish food. The same applies to trout feed (but to a lesser extent) Trout feed has very high lipids – usually above 12%. In my opinion this is not good for skin luster on koi. We must also look at the differences between good koi diets and poor koi diets. There are many koi foods flooding this country and I am sure your country as well that have been mass produced in the east. Their companies often have state subsidies and their labour costs are unbelievably low. Consequently they sell at very low retail prices. We did some analysis of a number of “imported” koi foods. More often than not red and green pellets. Not a single one had the protein content they claimed on the packaging. Not one had a protein content that koi need. This was especially true of pellets that were re-packaged. As a matter of fact their protein content varied between 15 and 18%! Now that’s less than allowed by law for dog food in this country. Yet they sell tons of it each month. Another point to consider. Almost every one of these koi foods had high peroxide and mould values after analysis. This tells you how fresh the food is. The imported foods are at least 4 – 6 months old before they get on the shelves of the shops. On the other hand there are some excellent imported foods. Not cheap but very good. Now the secret is to feed less of a high protein food than more of a cheap low protein food to your collection. I hope this helps. Regards, Chris ------ Now I'm sure some of you will find something wrong with the above, and that's okay, but I'm not going to debate it with you. As he also mentioned that one shouldn't get so concerned about people feeding pond grade koi, alternative (non-koi) foods. Some of us will, some of us won't and some of us will spoil our pets to the point they eat better than we do. ;o) Dogs, cats, horses, etc. if not taken care of require the services of a vet. Fish (thankfully) don't. Btw, Peter? Last I looked Tetra was pretty high price and had corn in the 1st 3 ingredients. I bet you could find a better quality food for the same or le$$. I, myself, started out using Tetra, I now use Sho-Koi as the main feed. At the time, the cost was comparable. ~ jan ----------------- (Do you know where your water quality is?) |
What Are You Feeding & Where are You Buying Your Koi Food This ...
Just so everyone knows, Chris Neaves quotes and uses a lot of other peoples work
(best to go to the originals) and he wrote me "I wrote a manual on koi nutrition back in 1990. I based my own koi food (Shogun Koi Nutrition) on this information." dont know if it is still available, he lived (lives?) in south africa. http://www.akca.org/kht/intro.pdf click on his name, scroll down to 1997-2001 Ingrid ~ janj wrote: One of the articles I pointed out on the AKCA website was written and taught to the KHA's by Chris Neaves. When I asked about a study he wrote up his views and told me I could post them. He does not work for any pet food manufacturing company. You can read about him he http://www.happykoi.co.za/Articles/3...s%20online.htm ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List at http://weloveteaching.com/puregold/ sign up: http://groups.google.com/groups/dir?...s=Group+lookup www.drsolo.com Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I receive no compensation for running the Puregold list or Puregold website. I do not run nor receive any money from the ads at the old Puregold site. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Zone 5 next to Lake Michigan |
What Are You Feeding & Where are You Buying Your Koi Food This Season?
Andrew,
Sorry, I do not have anything specific. A friend told me about some papers written on this subject, but he has been going through an terrible divorce and he has never gotten back to me with info on the source papers. I believe as you do that it is unlikely. I could see where oxidation might have an affect, but it you are storing the feed in air tight containers it should not be a problem. Tom L.L. |
What Are You Feeding & Where are You Buying Your Koi Food This Season?
Folks,
I've really enjoyed this discussion. I heard a lot from both sides. In the end, I went with Sho Koi from Western Outdoor. I order some filter pads because they were needed and it gave me free shipping. "~ janj" wrote in message ... On Sun, 02 Apr 2006 19:49:54 GMT, "JB" wrote: I visited a couple of web sites pricing food for this season (Aqua Mart for Hakari Staple & Western Pond for Sho Koi) and noticed a jump in prices. Between the two, Western Pond was offering 10 lbs of Sho Koi for $56.98, including shipping costs. This seems about $7.00 higher than last year. What are you feeding? And, where are you buying it? John Hi John, I purchased thru Western Outdoor Aquatics/Western Pond. I guess I didn't pay attention to the price change. I usually get my Sho Koi, 10 lbs. & Sho Gold at the same time so I get the free shipping. I also ordered a box of Manda Fu, so that should cover me for this season. ~ jan, certified AKCA koi health advisor. -------------- See my ponds and filter design: www.jjspond.us ~Keep 'em Wet!~ Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a To e-mail see website |
What Are You Feeding & Where are You Buying Your Koi Food This Season?
On Sat, 22 Apr 2006 17:42:05 GMT, "JB" wrote:
I've really enjoyed this discussion. I heard a lot from both sides. In the end, I went with Sho Koi from Western Outdoor. I order some filter pads because they were needed and it gave me free shipping. Yea, that free shipping will encourage you every time (especially now days). ;-) I usually get the 10 lb bag of Sho Koi, which puts me under the limit for free shipping, but I add Sho Gold, for the goldfish, which gets me up there. ~ jan ----------------- (Do you know where your water quality is?) |
| All times are GMT +1. The time now is 06:05 PM. |
|
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FishKeepingBanter.com