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Overdriving NO Tubes
"Mort" wrote in message y.com...
Well, I admit I do not know this man very well, but he claims that someone he knows has a device that measures the light output and he said that fixture "was clocked at 130watts" Photographers are using simple device to measure light intensity in a given point, so there is the way to measure light output relatively cheap and easy but measuring the light spectrum, which changes over time and changes when you change tube driving conditions is not so easy. If I were you, I would ask your friend about the details of the measurment process. How exactly he come up with the "was clocked at 130watts" statement. Did you compared the light output to the nominaly driven 130W VHO fixture? Or just added wattage of his balasts he has used? These two are not the same. And I highly doubt the overdriven NO tube will produce the same amount of light as VHO tube, so I would bet he just added wattage of balasts. Which is totaly wrong, because of the nature of the electric current flowing inside the fluorescent tube when driven by electronic balast. So anyway... Naturally I have questions about this and that is why I am here ;) Sure... |
Overdriving NO Tubes
"Boomer" wrote in message ...
meaning Fluro's are filled with Argon gas, the purpose for it in these bulbs is to become heated and increase the gas pressure. Gas pressure = more lumens / watt.. In MH, MV, HPS and LPS it is used for the same thing, but some of it also get ionized and adds to the light spectrum, so it is a duel purpose in these bulbs. Boomer, please, do not dissappoint me in your wisdom and correct yourself, please :-)) From above statement we can read that gases in the fluorescent tubes do not get ionized, which is not true to my knowledge. They do get ionized and they emit UV light, which is turned into visible rays of light by the phosphors mixture on the internal surface of the tubes... The ionization process is started by the high voltage surge when the bulb is powered on. Starting voltage is about 600V and depends highly on the lenght of the tube and the temperature of filaments on both ends. Traditional tubes had filaments heated to support tube starting with lowered voltages. The new designs have rather high voltage and no heating. The bottom line: If you use UV-transparent glass type to make the tube and do not use phosphors you would get the UV fluorescent tube. It is not the pressure which generates light. It is UV rays of ionized gas induce secondary emission from phosphors on the tube surface in the visible part of spectrum. The pressure may influence other factors, but the pressure itself does not generate light - sorry Boomer :-) And to much pressure can make the bulbs go Kaboom, such as screwing a 175 watt into a 250 and a 400 for sure. Exactly - The increased risk of glass shattering is another reason against overdriving. I should mentioned this on my list before :-) p.s. Petition to The King Marc: do not interprete my message as aggressive again :-)))) |
Overdriving NO Tubes
Pszemol wrote: I do not understand the logic - sorry... This is not the sign of aggression, but it does not make sense: you religiosly change VHOs every 6 months for what reason? Does the same reason apply to overdriven NO tubes or not? If so, why do you change them based on the look, while you change VHOs even if they still look good? Overdriving NO does not make it VHO! :-) I religiously change VHOs at 6 months because that is the life span of these bulbs. Now, who's told me that? Tons of people. Is it true? Don't know, but why rock the boat yet again? If that is the lifespan, so be it. Now if I've been misled and they are good for 8 or 9 months, well it's too late now. ;) It states 6500K. That is the color spectrum of that bulb. When overdriven? Sure, why not? talk about opening a can of worms here As you know, I'm in it for the hobby not the science. It *looked* good to me. Yes, but some things can't be fudged. They can't say this bulb reduces algae or anything. They state what color to expect. I think that would be a reasonably honest thing to do. They do not state how this tube behaves when overdriven. True, but the person that suggested this to me in the first place is someone I trust. How much do you save now each year? :-) Nothing. :( However, I can finally get an Table acropora. Yay!! Marc -- Personal Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com/oanda/index.html Business Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com Marine Hobbyist: http://www.melevsreef.com |
Overdriving NO Tubes
"Richard Reynolds" wrote in message news:H4v1b.8737$Qy4.1863@fed1read05...
How much do you save now each year? :-) I dont understand that concept ??? I have indicated my question with :-) sign! The whole thread is about saving money, isn't it? :-)))) If there was not problem with money nobody would bother with overdriving NO tubes... Nothing. :( However, I can finally get an Table acropora. Yay!! I do understand that concept :) Every hobby is very expensive when you become seriously involved. Money are not important anymore when you want to achieve something out of ordinary in your hobby. |
Overdriving NO Tubes
"Marc Levenson" wrote in message ...
It's all in the wording. And in the eyes of the reader. :) I am affraid I can do a little about that then... But we are not talking about VHO, right? Right. But we are using a VHO ballast. So what? :-) Is the balast the reason we replace VHO every 6 months? We are talking about overdriven NO tubes. Who has measured here the spectrum changing over time given by the overdriven NO tubes? I don't know. The guy that pointed me to this idea has contacts with many vendors, and has been in the marine industry for a long time. I figured he might have been told by someone that actually did the tests. I wonder if Sanjay Yoshi might have done it yet? If so, he'd have your answer. If I see him at Macna next month, I'll ask him and post his response. Thank you. It would be much more reliable information than "it looks good for me" :-) You argue too good. Gonna be a lawyer one day? Or simply the Devil's Advocate? ;) I am The Devil myself :-) OK - the question is: is it still really 6500K when overdriven? How is the spectrum change with overdriving the tube? Do you know that and can asure us that nothing changes except the intensity? Maybe Sanjay will know. People in this thread indicated the tubes change slightly in color. And this was visible change. There are probably more hard to notice changes. Lets wait for his answer. Was it to contradict opinion about wrong spectrum promoting algae grow? Or maybe to contradict opinion that overdriven tubes change the spectrum? Statement #1. Interesting... and I can read about this in so many places... Probably in the same places I read about replacing VHO every 6 months :-))) So why do you replace VHO bulbs religiously every 6 months if you do not care too much about the right light spectrum? You said you do not see the difference in light, but you still change them. Why? See? This is the reason I react questioning reasoning here :-))) Do not blame me. I can't say yet. Cost of bulbs, cost of consumed electricity, cost of replacement ballasts.... PCs seem like the best bet economically to me. |
Overdriving NO Tubes
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Overdriving NO Tubes
I do not need to correct myself :-) and might add you have mis-read this and misexplained
some things I think it is more "Sorry Pszemol" please correct yourself : -) "which is not true to my knowledge. They do get ionized and they emit UV light, which is turned into visible rays of light by the phosphors mixture on the internal surface of the tubes... " Well, that is incorrect as the bulb does not generate enough energy to ionize Argon. What makes you think it does.Only HID generate enough energy to ionize Argon. Do you have ref. that states that Argon in fluro lamp gets ionized and produces light or are you just assuming that ? "If you use UV-transparent glass type to make the tube and do not use phosphors you would get the UV fluorescent tube." It is the Mercury that becomes vaporized and ionized that does that, producing UV not Argon. You will only see Argon peaks in HID bulbs. "It is not the pressure which generates light. " I never said pressure generates light, I said "Increasing bulb pressure alone increases output, as the argon gas pressure increases, due to added heat and overdrive" and "Gas pressure = more lumens / watt" Know where did I say pressure produces light, I said pressure increases output. A bulb with no Argon gas, thus less pressure from heating and will have a lower efficacy rating than one with Argon. An Argon filled bulb would have a higher efficacy than a non-Argon filled bulb. The pressure reaches about 2-3 torr. Pressure lowers the wattage required to attain x lumens / W. Nowhere in the GTE manuals does it even mention that Argon adds at all to the spectrum and there is no Argon peak in any SED Curve This is how things work; When a fluro receives electrical current there is a passage of that current through the electrodes, called "Hot Electrodes", sealed at either end of the bulb. The heat generated heats up the tungsten filament and its emissive material such as Barium, Strontium, Calcium Oxide). As then become heated (950 C) they release electrons. These electrons travel at high speed from one electrode to another. Other electrons are also released by the field differences of the electrodes. This produces an electrical discharge arch or plasma. As these electrons and arch are produced it increases internal pressure, causing liquid Mercury in the tube to become heated, causing it to become vaporized and shed electrons. This release of electrons from Mercury produces UV light. These electrons fall back into orbit but only to be re-released again as the bulb is still receiving current. This "reaction" thus formed produces energy in the form of light and heat. The light so produced is UV at 253.7 nm. As this wave length hits the phosphors, materials that are capable of converting wavelengths from short UV to longer visible wave lengths, there is a change in the type of light. In other words these phosphors are excited to fluorescence by UV to the proper wave length. Some known examples of phosphors and their colors Cadmium Borate = Pink Calcium Halophospahte = White Calcium Silicate = Orange Calcium Tungstate = Blue Magnesium Tungstate = Bluish White Strontium Halophosphate = Light Green Zinc Silicate = Green Please consult GTE Sylvania Engineering Bulletin 0-341 (version 1 & 2 ), Fluorescent Lamps, 22 pages -- Boomer Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php Want to See More ? Please Join Our Growing Membership www.coralrealm.com If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up "Pszemol" wrote in message ... : "Boomer" wrote in message ... : meaning Fluro's are filled with Argon gas, the purpose for it in these bulbs is to become : heated and increase the gas pressure. Gas pressure = more lumens / watt.. In MH, MV, HPS : and LPS it is used for the same thing, but some of it also get ionized and adds to the : light spectrum, so it is a duel purpose in these bulbs. : : Boomer, please, do not dissappoint me in your wisdom and correct yourself, please :-)) : From above statement we can read that gases in the fluorescent tubes do not : get ionized, which is not true to my knowledge. They do get ionized and they : emit UV light, which is turned into visible rays of light by the phosphors : mixture on the internal surface of the tubes... The ionization process is started : by the high voltage surge when the bulb is powered on. Starting voltage is about 600V : and depends highly on the lenght of the tube and the temperature of filaments on both : ends. Traditional tubes had filaments heated to support tube starting with lowered : voltages. The new designs have rather high voltage and no heating. : The bottom line: If you use UV-transparent glass : type to make the tube and do not use phosphors you would get the UV fluorescent tube. : It is not the pressure which generates light. It is UV rays of ionized gas induce : secondary emission from phosphors on the tube surface in the visible part of spectrum. : The pressure may influence other factors, but the pressure itself does not : generate light - sorry Boomer :-) : : And to much pressure can make the : bulbs go Kaboom, such as screwing a 175 watt into a 250 and a 400 for sure. : : Exactly - The increased risk of glass shattering is another reason against overdriving. : I should mentioned this on my list before :-) : : p.s. Petition to The King Marc: do not interprete my message as aggressive again :-)))) |
Overdriving NO Tubes
oop's forgot
GTE Sylvania High Intensity Discharge lamps : Metal Arch, Engineering Bulletin 0-344 GTE Sylvania High Intensity Discharge lamps : Lumalux Lamps, Engineering Bulletin 0-348 GTE Sylvania High Intensity Discharge lamps: Mercury Lamps, Engineering Bulletin 0-346 -- Boomer Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php Want to See More ? Please Join Our Growing Membership www.coralrealm.com If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up "Boomer" wrote in message ... : I hope I wasn't to aggressive :-) : : -- : Boomer : : Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum : http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php : : Want to See More ? : Please Join Our Growing Membership : www.coralrealm.com : : If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up : "Boomer" wrote in message ... : : I do not need to correct myself :-) and might add you have mis-read this and : misexplained : : some things : : : : I think it is more "Sorry Pszemol" please correct yourself : -) : : : : "which is not true to my knowledge. They do get ionized and they : : emit UV light, which is turned into visible rays of light by the phosphors : : mixture on the internal surface of the tubes... " : : : : Well, that is incorrect as the bulb does not generate enough energy to ionize Argon. : What : : makes you think it does.Only HID generate enough energy to ionize Argon. Do you have : ref. : : that states that Argon in fluro lamp gets ionized and produces light or are you just : : assuming that ? : : : : "If you use UV-transparent glass : : type to make the tube and do not use phosphors you would get the UV fluorescent tube." : : : : It is the Mercury that becomes vaporized and ionized that does that, producing UV not : : Argon. You will only see Argon peaks in HID bulbs. : : : : : : "It is not the pressure which generates light. " : : : : I never said pressure generates light, I said : : : : "Increasing bulb : : pressure alone increases output, as the argon gas pressure increases, due to added heat : : and overdrive" : : : : and : : : : "Gas pressure = more lumens / watt" : : : : : : Know where did I say pressure produces light, I said pressure increases output. A bulb : : with no Argon gas, thus less pressure from heating and will have a lower efficacy rating : : than one with Argon. An Argon filled bulb would have a higher efficacy than a non-Argon : : filled bulb. The pressure reaches about 2-3 torr. Pressure lowers the wattage required : to : : attain x lumens / W. Nowhere in the GTE manuals does it even mention that Argon adds at : : all to the spectrum and there is no Argon peak in any SED Curve : : : : This is how things work; : : When a fluro receives electrical current there is a passage of that current through the : : electrodes, called "Hot Electrodes", sealed at either end of the bulb. The heat : generated : : heats up the tungsten filament and its emissive material such as Barium, Strontium, : : Calcium Oxide). As then become heated (950 C) they release electrons. These electrons : : travel at high speed from one electrode to another. Other electrons are also released by : : the field differences of the electrodes. This produces an electrical discharge arch or : : plasma. As these electrons and arch are produced it increases internal pressure, causing : : liquid Mercury in the tube to become heated, causing it to become vaporized and shed : : electrons. This release of electrons from Mercury produces UV light. These electrons : fall : : back into orbit but only to be re-released again as the bulb is still receiving current. : : This "reaction" thus formed produces energy in the form of light and heat. The light so : : produced is UV at 253.7 nm. As this wave length hits the phosphors, materials that are : : capable of converting wavelengths from short UV to longer visible wave lengths, there is : a : : change in the type of light. In other words these phosphors are excited to fluorescence : by : : UV to the proper wave length. : : : : Some known examples of phosphors and their colors : : : : Cadmium Borate = Pink : : : : Calcium Halophospahte = White : : : : Calcium Silicate = Orange : : : : Calcium Tungstate = Blue : : : : Magnesium Tungstate = Bluish White : : : : Strontium Halophosphate = Light Green : : : : Zinc Silicate = Green : : : : : : Please consult : : : : GTE Sylvania Engineering Bulletin 0-341 (version 1 & 2 ), Fluorescent Lamps, 22 pages : : : : : : : : -- : : Boomer : : : : Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum : : http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php : : : : Want to See More ? : : Please Join Our Growing Membership : : www.coralrealm.com : : : : If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up : : "Pszemol" wrote in message ... : : : "Boomer" wrote in message : : ... : : : meaning Fluro's are filled with Argon gas, the purpose for it in these bulbs is to : : become : : : heated and increase the gas pressure. Gas pressure = more lumens / watt.. In MH, MV, : : HPS : : : and LPS it is used for the same thing, but some of it also get ionized and adds to : the : : : light spectrum, so it is a duel purpose in these bulbs. : : : : : : Boomer, please, do not dissappoint me in your wisdom and correct yourself, please :-)) : : : From above statement we can read that gases in the fluorescent tubes do not : : : get ionized, which is not true to my knowledge. They do get ionized and they : : : emit UV light, which is turned into visible rays of light by the phosphors : : : mixture on the internal surface of the tubes... The ionization process is started : : : by the high voltage surge when the bulb is powered on. Starting voltage is about 600V : : : and depends highly on the lenght of the tube and the temperature of filaments on both : : : ends. Traditional tubes had filaments heated to support tube starting with lowered : : : voltages. The new designs have rather high voltage and no heating. : : : The bottom line: If you use UV-transparent glass : : : type to make the tube and do not use phosphors you would get the UV fluorescent tube. : : : It is not the pressure which generates light. It is UV rays of ionized gas induce : : : secondary emission from phosphors on the tube surface in the visible part of spectrum. : : : The pressure may influence other factors, but the pressure itself does not : : : generate light - sorry Boomer :-) : : : : : : And to much pressure can make the : : : bulbs go Kaboom, such as screwing a 175 watt into a 250 and a 400 for sure. : : : : : : Exactly - The increased risk of glass shattering is another reason against : overdriving. : : : I should mentioned this on my list before :-) : : : : : : p.s. Petition to The King Marc: do not interprete my message as aggressive again : :-)))) : : : : : : |
Overdriving NO Tubes
Right - I was mistaken - atoms of gases in the tube do not get
ionized but only get excited and then when electrons return to their original state they emit UV - sorry Boomer, you are still The Oracle! :-)) |
Overdriving NO Tubes
"Boomer" wrote in message ...
I hope I wasn't to aggressive :-) No, but I will be put in King's dungeons for sure now :-)))) Am I correct, King Marc? ;-))) p.s. what an excellent newsgroup atmosphere here! |
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