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Starting a reef tank
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Starting a reef tank
"Pszemol" wrote on Mon, 1 Oct 2007 :
"Don Geddis" wrote in message ... Who said here that an anemone should be the first thing he should buy? This all started because the original poster suggested that he was new (although it turned out he had kept sal****er fish before), and asked for advice. One suggestion was that he get a clownfish as a first fish. You replied that he ought to get a clownfish and anemone together. Can you quote with a msg-id of this post, please? Message-ID: From: "Pszemol" "Don Geddis" wrote in message ... Fortunately, clowns do just fine in tanks with no sea anemones. So get the clowns -- but hold off on the sea anemones. So, I was recommending that a brand new reefkeeper get some clownfish as an initial livestock purchase, but not (yet) a sea anemone. Or... get the books I recomended, educate yourself and then it will be easy to not only keep clowns in a healthy anemone [...] But this is not a reason to not keep them - different does not mean they are difficult! [...] Keeping a single clownfish in a tank with other fish is kind of cruel in my view - these are social fish and are best kept in pairs (Maroons) or small groups (any other types, including your well known "Nemo"). I never said get only a single clownfish, but I also think there would be nothing wrong with starting that way. Your advice, to a new reefkeeper, appears to have been: get a sea anemone right away also (after reading books); sea anemones are easy, not difficult; and you MUST get a group of clownfish or else you'll have trouble (what trouble, exactly?). I think your advice, to a new aquarist, was wrong. You will not notice any trouble if you get a single clownfish instead of a group; you will not notice any trouble if you get clownfish without an anemone; and you may well have problems if you start off in your very first tank with a delicate sea anemone, while you're still figuring out the basics of how sal****er tanks work in general. Clownfish in nature are not found without anemones, because there are predators in nature, and clownfish require host anemones as protection. Why do they require anemones as protection? Didn't I answer that already in the very same sentence? Because they get eaten by predators in the wild. Predators which are not present in our captive tanks. Hence, the "need" that clownfish have in the wild for host anemones is not a "need" in captivity. How a clownfish behaves in a tank without anemone? Depends on the clownfish (species, and individuals), but often: just fine. I had four ocellaris clowns for a couple of years, that happily swam in the open water. In fact, books on clownfishes (like Wilkerson) generally recommend NOT keeping anemones, if your goal (for example) is to breed them. Anemones just add an extra, unneeded, layer of complexity. You can breed clowns just fine without any anemones at all. You keep asking these silly Socratic questions, as though I've never thought about this stuff before, and somehow your magic questions will make me realize "oh gosh, you're right, a sea anemone is a must!" Instead, why don't you try giving actual evidence that YOU have. What have you seen, or read about, that makes you believe captive clowns "need" a sea anemone. What -- EXACTLY -- goes wrong with the clowns if they don't have an anemone? Its instinct forces him to desperately search for ANY protection he can possibly find: frilly mushrooms, soft corals or even a water pump mounting bracket. It's true that clowns can find other hosts. And their instincts lead them to seek such hosts. But calling is "desparate" searching is unsupported anthropomorphizing. In any case, clowns using a mushroom as a host aren't suffering either. The mushroom might suffer, depending on the size & number of the clowns, vs. the size the of mushroom. But the clowns are fine either way. I've got three ocellaris clowns right now that are perfectly happy in a huge hammer coral. Put clownfish in a tank with larger fish and you will not see clowns in the open much except when hungry during feeding. As is true with any small, passive fish in the same tank as a large aggressive fish. You'll see EXACTLY the same behavior if you try, say, a yellow coral goby in a tank with a powderblue tang. Good luck seeing the goby again. There's nothing special about clownfish in this regard. I agree that smaller fish in a tank can be terrorized by larger aggressive fish. Not with an anemone... that is the whole idea. You are also correct that it might be possible to have a mixed tank, with a large aggressive fish, and also a small clown who is able to hide in a host anemone. I agree that such a combination might thrive. But another, perfectly good, solution is to have only the clown, and neither the anemone nor the large aggressive fish. You would then also have a happy tank. Clownfish are stressed much more because the way they swim. They are very poor swimers compared to other small fish. They "know" very well their handicap and are stressed much more without a proper hideout. That has not been my experience, nor the experience of the experts who write the books. You can easily keep a large number of clowns in a species-specific tank, and they'll be so happy that they breed constantly. There is no need for a "proper hideout" -- especially a sea anemone. (That said, I love clown/anemone symbiosis too, and have done it before myself numerous times. I think it's a great thing for an aquarist to aspire too. I just wouldn't suggest it as the #1 plan for a first-time reefkeeper.) -- Don __________________________________________________ _____________________________ Don Geddis http://reef.geddis.org/ The Great Roe is a mythological beast with the head of a lion and the body of a lion, though not the same lion. -- Woody Allen |
Starting a reef tank
"Pszemol" wrote on Mon, 1 Oct 2007 :
"Don Geddis" wrote in message ... Another example, mandarin fish - it is difficult because it will only eat live plankton. Because it is usually hard to have plenty of live plankton in the reef tank carying for a mandarin is difficult, but only in certain situations (small tank, new tank etc). After a while, when reef is mature and tank is big enough to support a mandarin, carying for that fish is EASIER than carying for other fish: mandarin will feed itself from the rocks! Yeah, I've got a couple of those too. Even easier than the regular fish: I don't even have to feed them! I have no concern that I can take off on vacation for a week or two, and the mandarins might starve. Maybe the other fish, but not the mandarins. I got a "reef safe" black spiny sea urchin at one point. Only to discover that within half an hour it basically found and devoured one of the rose clones. I pulled the urchin off, but the anemone was hard and bleached white over 3/4 of its body. I'll admit, I threw that one out (and returned the urchin). Well... Urchin damage is only mechanical damage if I am correct Actually, this didn't seem to be. so it would likely survive the injury if given a chance... Different story is with predatory sea stars, they engulf prey with their stomach outside of their body and start digesting the prey even before consuming it. This kind of chemical poisoning would be in my opinion much harder to heal for an anemone than urchin bite. The urchin sure looked like it did exactly what you are talking about with the sea stars. I don't think I saw the stomach come out, but maybe it did. But this was no mechanical ripping. There was no question that 3/4 of the anemone, the part touched by the urchin, was chemically destroyed and already rotting, within an hour. The color went from the usual translucent pink, to solid white. Just horrible. -- Don __________________________________________________ _____________________________ Don Geddis http://reef.geddis.org/ Winner, "Papers I wish I hadn't written" contest: Montagnino, Lucian A., "Test and Evaluation of the Hubble Space Telescope 2.4 Meter Primary Mirror" Proc. SPIE, Large Optics Technology, Vol. 571, August 1985 |
Starting a reef tank
"Don Geddis" wrote in message ...
"Pszemol" wrote on Mon, 1 Oct 2007 : "Don Geddis" wrote in message ... Who said here that an anemone should be the first thing he should buy? This all started because the original poster suggested that he was new (although it turned out he had kept sal****er fish before), and asked for advice. One suggestion was that he get a clownfish as a first fish. You replied that he ought to get a clownfish and anemone together. Can you quote with a msg-id of this post, please? Message-ID: From: "Pszemol" "Don Geddis" wrote in message ... Fortunately, clowns do just fine in tanks with no sea anemones. So get the clowns -- but hold off on the sea anemones. So, I was recommending that a brand new reefkeeper get some clownfish as an initial livestock purchase, but not (yet) a sea anemone. Or... get the books I recomended, educate yourself and then it will be easy to not only keep clowns in a healthy anemone And where in this message do I state he should get them *TOGETHER*? I never said get only a single clownfish, but I also think there would be nothing wrong with starting that way. Your advice, to a new reefkeeper, appears to have been: get a sea anemone right away also (after reading books); It apeared this way only in your INTERPRETATION. I have never stated he should go to the store and get the anemone as his first animal. It is just your vivid imagination, not my words. Clownfish in nature are not found without anemones, because there are predators in nature, and clownfish require host anemones as protection. Why do they require anemones as protection? Didn't I answer that already in the very same sentence? Because they get eaten by predators in the wild. Predators which are not present in our captive tanks. No, you did not answer. You have not explained why clownfish are SPECIAL and they REQUIRE anemone for survival in the wild but other small fish do not require anemone and are doing fine without it. Hence, the "need" that clownfish have in the wild for host anemones is not a "need" in captivity. Good luck explaining this to a clownfish :-) In fact, books on clownfishes (like Wilkerson) generally recommend NOT keeping anemones, if your goal (for example) is to breed them. Anemones just add an extra, unneeded, layer of complexity. You can breed clowns just fine without any anemones at all. Is she recomending mixing clownfish breeding without anemone with other larger fish in the same tank? You keep asking these silly Socratic questions, as though I've never thought about this stuff before, and somehow your magic questions will make me realize "oh gosh, you're right, a sea anemone is a must!" You got it :-) Instead, why don't you try giving actual evidence that YOU have. What have you seen, or read about, that makes you believe captive clowns "need" a sea anemone. What -- EXACTLY -- goes wrong with the clowns if they don't have an anemone? It is just logical reasoning. If you do not see it - oh well, I will not have problems sleeping over this. Its instinct forces him to desperately search for ANY protection he can possibly find: frilly mushrooms, soft corals or even a water pump mounting bracket. It's true that clowns can find other hosts. And their instincts lead them to seek such hosts. But calling is "desparate" searching is unsupported anthropomorphizing. In any case, clowns using a mushroom as a host aren't suffering either. The mushroom might suffer, depending on the size & number of the clowns, vs. the size the of mushroom. But the clowns are fine either way. I've got three ocellaris clowns right now that are perfectly happy in a huge hammer coral. Have you asked them if they are happy? Put clownfish in a tank with larger fish and you will not see clowns in the open much except when hungry during feeding. As is true with any small, passive fish in the same tank as a large aggressive fish. You'll see EXACTLY the same behavior if you try, say, a yellow coral goby in a tank with a powderblue tang. Good luck seeing the goby again. There's nothing special about clownfish in this regard. There is something very special about clownfish in this regard. You can put an anemone in the tank hosting pair of clowns and you will get a great looking tank with clownfish feeling like home and larger, aggressive fish staying with their limits set by anemone. I agree that smaller fish in a tank can be terrorized by larger aggressive fish. Not with an anemone... that is the whole idea. You are also correct that it might be possible to have a mixed tank, with a large aggressive fish, and also a small clown who is able to hide in a host anemone. I agree that such a combination might thrive. But another, perfectly good, solution is to have only the clown, and neither the anemone nor the large aggressive fish. You would then also have a happy tank. Not by my book, but you - go ahead :-) Clownfish are stressed much more because the way they swim. They are very poor swimers compared to other small fish. They "know" very well their handicap and are stressed much more without a proper hideout. That has not been my experience, nor the experience of the experts who write the books. You can easily keep a large number of clowns in a species-specific tank, and they'll be so happy that they breed constantly. There is no need for a "proper hideout" -- especially a sea anemone. (That said, I love clown/anemone symbiosis too, and have done it before myself numerous times. I think it's a great thing for an aquarist to aspire too. Then why are you working so hard convincing new aquarists againt it?? I just wouldn't suggest it as the #1 plan for a first-time reefkeeper.) Nobody else did. |
Starting a reef tank
Big Habeeb wrote:
I'm confused...how would it overflow the sump with the power turned off? With the power off it wont be sucking in any water, nor will it be pushing any back out...so how would it overflow??? That will depend on the design. Some units have been poorly designed. These will have a syphon from the tank to the sump with some sort of shutoff mechanism. Tanks with overflows are designed to have a sump that's bigger than the amount of water above the top of the overflow. If the power goes off, water is no longer being pumped back into the tank. With the first type, if the syphon shutoff mechanism fails, the sump overflows. With the second type, if someone buys a sump that's too small, it will overflow. Sounds like you believe that yours has a pump to pump water out of the tank and down to the sump. If the power goes off, that will be a very effective syphon. George Patterson If you torture the data long enough, eventually it will confess to anything. |
Starting a reef tank
Big Habeeb wrote:
I guess my plan for the moment has changed to 1. add substrate 2. continue adding water till about 60% filled...add salt and allow to stir...make sure salt content is good etc, and then add the live rock 3. Add/take out water as needed to accomodate live rock, and then crank it up and keep my fingers crossed :) Uh.... You haven't added any salt yet? In that case, I would join Wayne and Pzemol in recommending that you fill it all the way and check your equipment out. Then drain off 40%, mix in your salt and continue at step 2. Use a few 5 gallon buckets or a big, new, plastic trash can to collect the water you drained off. You'll need something for mixing up water for water changes anyway. Personally, I would fill the tank, check the equipment out for a day or two, mix the salt in and let it stabilize and then drain off as needed while adding the rock. You might waste $5 worth of salt that way, but the mixing part would be easier. You could drain 4 gallons into a bucket, add rock until the tank is full again, toss the water in the bucket, and repeat until all the rock is in. Then top off the tank from the bucket. George Patterson If you torture the data long enough, eventually it will confess to anything. |
Starting a reef tank
"George Patterson" wrote in message news:tZBMi.621$n92.262@trnddc06...
Sounds like you believe that yours has a pump to pump water out of the tank and down to the sump. If the power goes off, that will be a very effective syphon. Why would you need a pump to move water down to sump? Gravity does this for you for free. Pump is needed to work AGAINST gravity, and pump the water up to the tank. |
Starting a reef tank
On Oct 2, 9:09 pm, George Patterson wrote:
Big Habeeb wrote: I'm confused...how would it overflow the sump with the power turned off? With the power off it wont be sucking in any water, nor will it be pushing any back out...so how would it overflow??? That will depend on the design. Some units have been poorly designed. These will have a syphon from the tank to the sump with some sort of shutoff mechanism. Tanks with overflows are designed to have a sump that's bigger than the amount of water above the top of the overflow. If the power goes off, water is no longer being pumped back into the tank. With the first type, if the syphon shutoff mechanism fails, the sump overflows. With the second type, if someone buys a sump that's too small, it will overflow. Sounds like you believe that yours has a pump to pump water out of the tank and down to the sump. If the power goes off, that will be a very effective syphon. George Patterson If you torture the data long enough, eventually it will confess to anything. George, This was indeed my mistake. I'm very much used to cannister/hanging filters, where the power both pulls water out, and pushes water in. I was actually thinking about this thread last night while looking at my setup and realizing once again that is not the case here. Presumable my sump is large enough, since it fills most of the stand below the tank...but I should find out in the next day or two when I power it on. Tank is currently about 1/4 full of R/O freshwater, no sand or rocks or anything of that kind, obviously. I'm very eager to power on and see how well this thing is going to run! Mitch |
Starting a reef tank
"Pszemol" wrote on Tue, 2 Oct 2007 :
"Don Geddis" wrote in message ... "Don Geddis" wrote in message ... Fortunately, clowns do just fine in tanks with no sea anemones. So get the clowns -- but hold off on the sea anemones. Or... get the books I recomended, educate yourself and then it will be easy to not only keep clowns in a healthy anemone And where in this message do I state he should get them *TOGETHER*? Well, gosh. I post a message that recommends you get the clownfish first, and "hold off" on the sea anemone (i.e., get the anemone later, after you have more experience). You reply: "Or...". What does "or" mean, except that you disagree with my suggestion, and that you DON'T think the new aquarist should "hold off" on getting the sea anemone? All the rest of your message is about how "easy" it is to raise sea anemones (as long as you read books first). I think anyone reading your message would conclude that you believe a new aquarist ought to get clownfish and sea anemones together (after reading some books), right at the beginning. If that's not what you meant, then you don't write very clearly. You have not explained why clownfish are SPECIAL and they REQUIRE anemone for survival in the wild but other small fish do not require anemone and are doing fine without it. Well, that's the niche they have in the wild. They've developed a survival strategy which requires symbiosis with a host anemone to avoid getting eaten. In the absense of an anemone, they're missing the survival skills required by other small fish. For example, they're (relatively) slow swimmers, not great at changing direction, not a "schooling" fish, not a fish that can squeeze into rocks like a hippo tang or eel, etc. But again, NONE of this has anything to do with whether clownfish in a captive tank without an anemone are "happy" or not. In fact, books on clownfishes (like Wilkerson) generally recommend NOT keeping anemones, if your goal (for example) is to breed them. Anemones just add an extra, unneeded, layer of complexity. You can breed clowns just fine without any anemones at all. Is she recomending mixing clownfish breeding without anemone with other larger fish in the same tank? Not particularly, but she's talking about the most reliable way to get regular successful breeding. That includes using species-specific tanks. My only point -- which you seem to keep avoiding -- is that you're conflating two different issues. One is whether clownfish in captivity "need" a sea anemone, or else something goes wrong. The answer is clearly no. The most successful clownfish capitive breeders don't use anemones at all. A totally different question is: in a community reef tank, with lots of different species, if you also have aggressive, larger fish, how do small clownfish do in such a community tank? In that, you're probably right that clownfish have few alternatives for protection other than some kind of host, preferably anemones. But those aren't the only alternatives. You can ALSO have an awesome community reef tank, WITHOUT including large aggressive fish. And in that case, the clownfish once again have no need of a host anemone. Instead, why don't you try giving actual evidence that YOU have. What have you seen, or read about, that makes you believe captive clowns "need" a sea anemone. What -- EXACTLY -- goes wrong with the clowns if they don't have an anemone? It is just logical reasoning. Sorry, that's not going to cut it. This isn't Greek philosophy 2000 years ago, where you can just think happy thoughts and imagine what the world must be like. Science rules these days. Unless you have actual observational evidence, your "just so" stories about what must "logically" be happening are worth nothing. And, on the other side, I have tons of documented evidence that clownfish breeders are hugely successful without anemones, and in fact prefer setting up tanks without them -- I know of no clownfish captive breeder who uses host anemones in their farming practices. And successful repetitive breeding is generally the "gold standard" about whether a species is "happy" in captivity. I'm open to other standards, if you have one to propose. But so far, all you've offered is your so-called "logical" opinion. Given that, vs. the documented evidence of clownfish breeders (and also my own personal experience keeping different species of clowns in my tanks) ... I know which side of the bet I'd put my money on. I've got three ocellaris clowns right now that are perfectly happy in a huge hammer coral. Have you asked them if they are happy? Let's turn the question around. What evidence do you have that they are unhappy? If we were unsure whether or not they were happy -- besides your "logical reasoning", of course -- what could I actually OBSERVE about them that would settle the question? Do you have ANYTHING concrete to say on the subject? As is true with any small, passive fish in the same tank as a large aggressive fish. You'll see EXACTLY the same behavior if you try, say, a yellow coral goby in a tank with a powderblue tang. Good luck seeing the goby again. There's nothing special about clownfish in this regard. There is something very special about clownfish in this regard. You can put an anemone in the tank hosting pair of clowns and you will get a great looking tank with clownfish feeling like home and larger, aggressive fish staying with their limits set by anemone. You are correct that when clownfish are threaten with physical danger, their only real response is to retreat into a host anemone. But this tells you nothing at all about how they would fare in a tank without threats of physical danger. I've mentioned this (common) case many, many times in this thread, and you have yet to respond to it. But another, perfectly good, solution is to have only the clown, and neither the anemone nor the large aggressive fish. You would then also have a happy tank. Not by my book, but you - go ahead :-) Again, nobody cares about your random opinion. Can you provide ANY objective evidence that the clowns are "stressed", in any way? (That said, I love clown/anemone symbiosis too, and have done it before myself numerous times. I think it's a great thing for an aquarist to aspire too. Then why are you working so hard convincing new aquarists againt it?? Haven't I answered this many times? Because caring for (delicate) sea anemones requires learning everything about caring for (very robust) clownfish first, plus some additional things to learn about which can also go wrong. So, the advice for a new aquarist should be: start simple, gain some experience, and as you become more confident and begin to make fewer mistakes, only then start adding more delicate/challenging species. That's the general advice. The specific advice is: go ahead and get clownfish at the beginning (they're as good an initial species as any other), but hold off on the sea anemones until you gain some experience and your tank becomes a little more stable. I just wouldn't suggest it as the #1 plan for a first-time reefkeeper.) Nobody else did. Then why have you been arguing with me? All your responses have been about how anemones are "easy", and "not difficult". And, for that matter, about how clownfish without an anemone would be "stressed" (which is clearly false, in general). If you think anemones are as easy to keep as clownfish, then why NOT get them together as your initial livestock purchase for a new aquarist? What do YOU have against that plan? You're really not making any sense. -- Don __________________________________________________ _____________________________ Don Geddis http://reef.geddis.org/ I am not a vegetarian because I love animals; I am a vegetarian because I hate plants. -- A. Whitney Brown |
Starting a reef tank
"Don Geddis" wrote in message ...
nobody cares about your random opinion. [...] You're really not making any sense. Don, what is the purpose of prolonging this conversation? |
Starting a reef tank
Big Habeeb wrote:
I'm very much used to cannister/hanging filters, where the power both pulls water out, and pushes water in. Actually, the cannister and hanging filters I've used also used pumps that only push water back out. All of them have used syphons to get the water into the filter. George Patterson If you torture the data long enough, eventually it will confess to anything. |
Starting a reef tank
On Oct 3, 11:19 pm, George Patterson wrote:
Big Habeeb wrote: I'm very much used to cannister/hanging filters, where the power both pulls water out, and pushes water in. Actually, the cannister and hanging filters I've used also used pumps that only push water back out. All of them have used syphons to get the water into the filter. George Patterson If you torture the data long enough, eventually it will confess to anything. OK, so last night I got it filled enough for water ot go into the overflow, only to discover that I had a leak from the bottom of the plumbing...wasn't entirely sure what the problem was until I checked some schematics in one of the books I have - apparently the genius who set up the plumbing for me (mind you this was at the "better price, but less reliable LFS") put the washer OUTSIDE the tank, instead of on the inside of the overflow. So, basically now, I syphoned out the overflow so its more or less empty...tonight when I get home I'll pull out the sump, get a bucket in there, take the whole thing apart, rebuild it with the washer INSIDE the overflow, and try again. Irritating that things break through no fault of my own in this case. Mitch |
Starting a reef tank
Big Habeeb wrote:
OK, so last night I got it filled enough for water ot go into the overflow, only to discover that I had a leak from the bottom of the plumbing... You're getting smart! This is exactly why we run a full test of everything before committing live creatures to the system. Good catch. George Patterson If you torture the data long enough, eventually it will confess to anything. |
Starting a reef tank
On Oct 5, 12:10 am, George Patterson wrote:
Big Habeeb wrote: OK, so last night I got it filled enough for water ot go into the overflow, only to discover that I had a leak from the bottom of the plumbing... You're getting smart! This is exactly why we run a full test of everything before committing live creatures to the system. Good catch. George Patterson If you torture the data long enough, eventually it will confess to anything. Thanks :) So last night I fixed it, refilled with r/o water, crossed the fingers, and turned everything on. Voila, we're up and running. I let it run for about 3 hours without difficulty, and then began adding the salt - it's looking like we're good to go (so far so good at any rate). I then held my breath and did what was suggested earlier and turned off the power to see if my sump would overflow - it didnt. Huzzah!!!! Tonight I'm off to the LFS for a new test kit (I'm low on most of my mixers from the last time I purchased one), a lamp kit for my sump, and an additional powerhead to increase circulation. But it looks like we're doing well for a completely empty tank. So far there's only been one casualty: while pulling the hoses off the plumbing kid my hand slipped and slammed into my sump...couple NASTY cuts on my knuckle, so I musta hit AWFUL hard. But hey, better my hand than a fish/coral right? Mitch |
Starting a reef tank
Big Habeeb wrote:
Tonight I'm off to the LFS for a new test kit (I'm low on most of my mixers from the last time I purchased one), a lamp kit for my sump, and an additional powerhead to increase circulation. Probably too late, but check this out. http://www.petsolutions.com/Hydor+Ko...I-C-49-C-.aspx Kicks more water than a power head and uses less electricity. George Patterson If you torture the data long enough, eventually it will confess to anything. |
Starting a reef tank
On Oct 5, 10:01 pm, George Patterson wrote:
Big Habeeb wrote: Tonight I'm off to the LFS for a new test kit (I'm low on most of my mixers from the last time I purchased one), a lamp kit for my sump, and an additional powerhead to increase circulation. Probably too late, but check this out. http://www.petsolutions.com/Hydor+Ko...0498-I-C-49-C-.... Kicks more water than a power head and uses less electricity. George Patterson If you torture the data long enough, eventually it will confess to anything. Thankfully, not too late...are these really preferable over 'traditional' powerheads? Also, here's the pics of the tank so far: http://s226.photobucket.com/albums/dd283/mbren28568/ 72 pounds of liverock sure didn't go too far. I'll be adding more, small quantities at a time, a bit later...for the time being its enough for a start. Mitch |
Starting a reef tank
Long spined urchins have venum in the spines.
Wayne Sallee Don Geddis wrote on 10/2/2007 8:06 PM: The urchin sure looked like it did exactly what you are talking about with the sea stars. I don't think I saw the stomach come out, but maybe it did. But this was no mechanical ripping. There was no question that 3/4 of the anemone, the part touched by the urchin, was chemically destroyed and already rotting, within an hour. The color went from the usual translucent pink, to solid white. Just horrible. -- Don |
Starting a reef tank
On Oct 8, 11:04 am, Big Habeeb wrote:
On Oct 5, 10:01 pm, George Patterson wrote: Big Habeeb wrote: Tonight I'm off to the LFS for a new test kit (I'm low on most of my mixers from the last time I purchased one), a lamp kit for my sump, and an additional powerhead to increase circulation. Probably too late, but check this out. http://www.petsolutions.com/Hydor+Ko...0498-I-C-49-C-.... Kicks more water than a power head and uses less electricity. George Patterson If you torture the data long enough, eventually it will confess to anything. Thankfully, not too late...are these really preferable over 'traditional' powerheads? Also, here's the pics of the tank so far:http://s226.photobucket.com/albums/dd283/mbren28568/ 72 pounds of liverock sure didn't go too far. I'll be adding more, small quantities at a time, a bit later...for the time being its enough for a start. Mitch Your right 72 pounds of LR is not much at all..........except $$$|$. You can buy a kit thats sold to modify the typical Maxi Jet line of powerheads to make them a propeller circulator, much cheaper than you can buy the Hydor brands for. The Maxi Jet line of powerheads are heard to beat. They make the kits to kit the 400 through the 1200 maxis and they are coming out with kits to convert the mini jet series as well. You'll find out quick sucktion cups just plain do not cut it, and magnets or a bracket to the top frame is the only way to go. Go to Wally World or one of the big box petsupply places and buy some of the house brand or el cheapo magnetic glass cleabner devices, and use the inner half of device to mount the powerheads etc to.......you can use silicone or weldon solvent to stick the powerheads or any other device to them and they work 1000x better than a suction cup. The biggest problem with the hydor propeller circulators is the size of the things as compared to a modified maxi jet. IMHO the hydor is much to large and bulky looking, but they do move a considerable amount of water and spread out the flow in a wider area than a typcial powerhead does...Personally I like the typical Maxi Jet powerheads as they can also be used to pump out water for water changes etc. All the propeller typ0es as the |Hydor will do is provide a flow of current. |
Starting a reef tank
Big Habeeb wrote:
Thankfully, not too late...are these really preferable over 'traditional' powerheads? I repeat. They move more water and use less electricity. One of the side effects of moving more water is that you need fewer of them. One of the side effects of using less juice is that they put less heat into the water. Admittedly, that's only a problem during the Summer, but it's the difference between having to spend $600+ on a chiller and not buying one for me. George Patterson If you torture the data long enough, eventually it will confess to anything. |
Starting a reef tank
"George Patterson" wrote in message news:M3BOi.3152$Cd7.1304@trnddc03...
Big Habeeb wrote: Thankfully, not too late...are these really preferable over 'traditional' powerheads? I repeat. They move more water and use less electricity. One of the side effects of moving more water is that you need fewer of them. One of the side effects of using less juice is that they put less heat into the water. Admittedly, that's only a problem during the Summer, but it's the difference between having to spend $600+ on a chiller and not buying one for me. Have you measured a MaxiJet power consumption with a mentioned mod kit? Power consumption drasticaly changes with the load put on the pump. Who knows, maybe a 20W powerhead using this 20W in normal configuration will use only 5W when used with the turbine kit and moving similar amount of water than Hydor pumps. If not measured we cannot tell for sure. And this is not enough to measure the current because the magnetic pumps will have very strong influence of the power factor, so the measurement will have to take this for consideration. The best will be to use power meter. |
Starting a reef tank
"August West" wrote in message ...
"Pszemol" wrote in message ... I could also recomend you read this one: "Natural Reef Aquarium" by John H. Tullock Here is cheaper than B&N http://www.petstore.com/ps_ViewItem-...uct-BKNRA.html Full of great ideas for a many different kind of aquariums. And if you ever think of getting clownfish and, more importantly sea anemones, I would consider reading following two positions mandatory BEFORE YOU BUY THESE ANIMALS: "Clownfishes" by Joyce D. Wilkerson "Host Sea Anemone Secrets" by Dr. Ron Shimek I think I'll read that also. Thanks Pszemol Smart move if you want to keep clarki clowns and anemone. |
Starting a reef tank
"August West" wrote in message ...
I do not know if this was mentioned earlier in the thread or not, but set up a "quarantine" tank also. Filter, lights (I have a regular flourescent light for a 20 gallon tall tank)and thats about it. Make sure you quarantine all fish before adding them to the tank, or you will end up like I did, with an ich explosion that wipes out all your fish except the lawnmower blenny. And I did it AGAIN before I finally set up the quarantine tank. Duh.... No losses after making sure I quarantine and medicate before adding to the main tank. Every book I have read talks about quarantine/hospital tank, so I am sure Big Habeeb knows about the quarantine from his reading of four books ;-) |
Starting a reef tank
On Oct 12, 10:10 am, "Pszemol" wrote:
"August West" wrote in om... I do not know if this was mentioned earlier in the thread or not, but set up a "quarantine" tank also. Filter, lights (I have a regular flourescent light for a 20 gallon tall tank)and thats about it. Make sure you quarantine all fish before adding them to the tank, or you will end up like I did, with an ich explosion that wipes out all your fish except the lawnmower blenny. And I did it AGAIN before I finally set up the quarantine tank. Duh.... No losses after making sure I quarantine and medicate before adding to the main tank. Every book I have read talks about quarantine/hospital tank, so I am sure Big Habeeb knows about the quarantine from his reading of four books ;-) Yes I'm aware of quarantine tanks, and in fact have broken down my 36 bow front tank from its previous cichlid setup, and am going to be changing over to a quarantine salt tank. Most of what I have will be sufficient for that purpose, though I will likely upgrade the filter...nothing wrong with my tetratec, and I've run sal****er on it before, but its getting old, and is painfully loud. I feel OK about ditching it...getting 5 years or so service out of a 40 dollar filter - I'd say I got my money's worth. Mitch |
Starting a reef tank
"Big Habeeb" wrote in message oups.com...
Yes I'm aware of quarantine tanks, and in fact have broken down my 36 bow front tank from its previous cichlid setup, and am going to be changing over to a quarantine salt tank. Most of what I have will be sufficient for that purpose, though I will likely upgrade the filter...nothing wrong with my tetratec, and I've run sal****er on it before, but its getting old, and is painfully loud. I feel OK about ditching it...getting 5 years or so service out of a 40 dollar filter - I'd say I got my money's worth. Good thinking, Mitch, you are better at the start than most of us who did not read books you have, and learned on our own mistakes. |
Starting a reef tank
On Oct 12, 2:42 pm, "August West"
wrote: Good, that quarantine tank will more than pay for itself the first time you do NOT have an ich explosion. Which for me happened as soon as I could lose over 200 dollars worth of fish. It was always the fish that put me over 200 dollars that did it. First time was a Jawfish and a scissortail goby that did it, second time a Tennenti Tang. Then it dawned on me that maybe, just maybe, everybody else was right and possibly I was wrong. I even dosed the whole tank w/potassium permangenate once, no joy. "Pszemol" wrote in message ... "Big Habeeb" wrote in message roups.com... Yes I'm aware of quarantine tanks, and in fact have broken down my 36 bow front tank from its previous cichlid setup, and am going to be changing over to a quarantine salt tank. Most of what I have will be sufficient for that purpose, though I will likely upgrade the filter...nothing wrong with my tetratec, and I've run sal****er on it before, but its getting old, and is painfully loud. I feel OK about ditching it...getting 5 years or so service out of a 40 dollar filter - I'd say I got my money's worth. Good thinking, Mitch, you are better at the start than most of us who did not read books you have, and learned on our own mistakes.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - You know its funny to read about these ich outbreaks - I was under the impression that ich had a very difficult time surviving in salt, this belief even further cultivated because I never had a problem with outbreaks in any of my sal****er fish only tanks...but constantly had ich issues in my standard freshwater setups. Not doubting anyone of what they're saying, don't get me wrong, I guess I just got very lucky in my salt setups in the past. It also probably helped that for the most part I stuck with fish that were very hardy, and really only wound up losing fish when my puffer got too big and too hungry for the tank (if you've never seen a 10" porcupine puffer in a 36 gallon tank, consider yourselves lucky). I wound up breaking down the tank and turning the puffer over to the LFS after watching him decimate every other thing in the tank. There was no stopping him either, despite overfeeding him with shrimp etc. Nasty bastich that he was, I almost hoped that ich would have taken him out, but no joy on that. However, this was a 'learn from my own mistakes" scenario, and I will NEVER keep a porcupine puffer again, despite how cool they are to look at. |
Starting a reef tank
"Big Habeeb" wrote in message oups.com...
You know its funny to read about these ich outbreaks - I was under the impression that ich had a very difficult time surviving in salt, this belief even further cultivated because I never had a problem with outbreaks in any of my sal****er fish only tanks...but constantly had ich issues in my standard freshwater setups. Parasites we are talking about are known in freshwater and sal****er environments. They are killed by sudden changes of salinity, and one of the method of curing infected sal****er fish is freshwater dip for some short time (until fish starts to show signs of clear and heavy discomfort). Ich in a reef tank is not curable with chemicals. Chemicals would kill all your beneficial live rock dwellers. So it is even more important to quarantine when you have a reef tank... Preaching this I have to admit that quite recently I added a piece of live rock into my old, stable setup running without ich for many YEARS and I got instant ich infection on my tang fish. Knowing how difficult is to cure ich in a reef and how deadly it can be to the fish I had to get 2 skunk cleaner shrimps. (Lysmata amboinensis) They are beautiful to look at and also a perfect biological weapon in a battle agains ich. They pick the parasite from the fish and eat it, so I could recommend these little buggers for you as a kind of "ich insurance". It was quite amazing to watch this fish like a kind of doctor curing my fish and the fish willingly subject itself to the procedure... However it was not as spectacular as in the "Finding Nemo" movie... ;-) This does not free you from the duty of keeping quarantine tank since ich is not the only the problem introduced with new fish. |
Starting a reef tank
On Oct 12, 6:37 pm, "Pszemol" wrote:
"Big Habeeb" wrote in ooglegroups.com... You know its funny to read about these ich outbreaks - I was under the impression that ich had a very difficult time surviving in salt, this belief even further cultivated because I never had a problem with outbreaks in any of my sal****er fish only tanks...but constantly had ich issues in my standard freshwater setups. Parasites we are talking about are known in freshwater and sal****er environments. They are killed by sudden changes of salinity, and one of the method of curing infected sal****er fish is freshwater dip for some short time (until fish starts to show signs of clear and heavy discomfort). Ich in a reef tank is not curable with chemicals. Chemicals would kill all your beneficial live rock dwellers. So it is even more important to quarantine when you have a reef tank... Preaching this I have to admit that quite recently I added a piece of live rock into my old, stable setup running without ich for many YEARS and I got instant ich infection on my tang fish. Knowing how difficult is to cure ich in a reef and how deadly it can be to the fish I had to get 2 skunk cleaner shrimps. (Lysmata amboinensis) They are beautiful to look at and also a perfect biological weapon in a battle agains ich. They pick the parasite from the fish and eat it, so I could recommend these little buggers for you as a kind of "ich insurance". It was quite amazing to watch this fish like a kind of doctor curing my fish and the fish willingly subject itself to the procedure... However it was not as spectacular as in the "Finding Nemo" movie... ;-) This does not free you from the duty of keeping quarantine tank since ich is not the only the problem introduced with new fish. Pszemol, Yah I know there's other bad stuff, which is why I am setting up the quarantine tank - I think my surprise was more in general that ich was an issue (not that I needed to keep a Q tank) - One of the solutions I'd used with a decent amount of success in battling ich in the past was adding a small amount of sea salt to my freshwater tanks....not enough to even impact the spc gravity particularly, but it seemed to do a good job of battling off the nasty ich...in most cases even more so than the recommended chemicals (and I prefer not to use chemicals anyway). I guess I didn't realize that it was the change in salinity, not merely the PRESENCE of salinity which did the trick. While I've done alot of reading, I admit that much of what I learned about keeping freshwater tanks was learned through trial and error...so while I generally got to the right solution, it wasn't always necessarily for the right reasons, apparently. As with anything else, it's a learning process. Meanwhile an update on the tanks. The cichlid tank is gone...its been broken down and put away for the moment. The filter is goneski (way WAY overdue), and all the other assorted items have been cleaned, sanitized, and prepped for new life as a quarantine tank. The big tank, the 72g jobbie, now sports around 86 pounds of live rock (added an additional 16 pounds this weekend to make it a bit more full), and is cycling nicely. I've started to see some ammonia going up, albeit slowly, and I'm just letting it be. Very excited to see that it's starting to do what it's supposed to do. Had a long chat with the local fish shop (the one I really trust) over the weekend while staring at his 30 year old coral (its a leather of some kind, but is now TREMENDOUS) and discussed various livestock options etc for when I am eventually ready to add. Most likely the first live coral going into the tank will be a leather or two and a brain...be decent enough for a start. Pretty, and according to the LFS, fairly hardy choices. We also did approach the topic of anemones and whether or not they are advisable for the beginning reef keeper. From what he's saying, a 'bubble tip anemone' is a solid choice...hardy, easy to breed, and will plan nicely with the other corals/fish that I anticipate adding. I dont want anyone to get paranoid: I am not going to be dropping all this stuff in immediately, and am not rushing to put ANYTHING in. I'm just starting to plan on what the next steps will be once the cycle is done and the tank is ready to handle some livestock. I know I still have a ways to go (at the rate the ammonia is going up, I'm figuring another 2 weeks or so at least), but it's nice to spend some time thinking about what I want the tank to look like when I AM ready to get it really 'going' so to speak. In the meantime, I love the look of the live rock already, particularly now that I added extra and it's not so sparse in the tank. I've also added 2 powerheads recommended by the LFS as being very low heat, but good outflow, and they're tucked nicely into holes throug my live rock configuration. Over all I'm starting to get pretty excited about the project. It's taking pretty much all the patience I have in my big fat body to not jump the gun...and I've been stopping by the LFS at least every other day to go drool over the various corals etc that I will eventually be putting in. Mitch |
Starting a reef tank
Big Habeeb wrote:
I think my surprise was more in general that ich was an issue (not that I needed to keep a Q tank) - One of the solutions I'd used with a decent amount of success in battling ich in the past was adding a small amount of sea salt to my freshwater tanks....not enough to even impact the spc gravity particularly, but it seemed to do a good job of battling off the nasty ich...in most cases even more so than the recommended chemicals (and I prefer not to use chemicals anyway). Freshwater ich and sal****er ich are two completely different animals (literally). You will find many people who claim that sal****er ich is inherent in all marine fish and can't be cured. These people will advise you to improve your water quality, and the ich will go away. I agree that it will. For about 2 weeks, until the next generation of the parasite gets to the fish-sucking stage. The only cure for marine ich (AK cryptocaryon) is copper sulphate. Unfortunately, adding this to your reef tank will kill lots of stuff you really need (for example, your live rock becomes dead rock), so you need a Q tank to treat your fish. It also needs to be big enough to keep all your fish alive for the month that it takes to allow the ich to die out in your main tank. Better to quarantine your fish so that ich doesn't get into your tank in the first place. George Patterson If you torture the data long enough, eventually it will confess to anything. |
Starting a reef tank
On Oct 16, 12:17 am, "August West"
wrote: This stuff worked for me...http://www.aquariumguys.com/kickich1.htmlI have no idea whats in it but it is copper free. I quarantined my Atlanic Blue Tang after I got him. I finally put him in the big tank and about a week later - Blam! He had ich all over him. Theres no way to catch a fish in that tank, so I tried Kick-Ich out of desparation. It worked, and none of the inverts were affected. Nothing happened to the nitrite, nitrate, or ammonia levels, so I assume it left all the bacteria alone. Now I use garlic and cleaner shrimp in the big tank. Whenever I get new fish, they get the Kick-Ich treatment in the quarantine tank. When I move them to the big tank, it gets a Kick Ich treatment also. Expensive, but effective. Its best to leave the skimmer off on "dose day" "George Patterson" wrote in message news:jnVQi.2423$et1.1204@trnddc02... Big Habeeb wrote: I think my surprise was more in general that ich was an issue (not that I needed to keep a Q tank) - One of the solutions I'd used with a decent amount of success in battling ich in the past was adding a small amount of sea salt to my freshwater tanks....not enough to even impact the spc gravity particularly, but it seemed to do a good job of battling off the nasty ich...in most cases even more so than the recommended chemicals (and I prefer not to use chemicals anyway). Freshwater ich and sal****er ich are two completely different animals (literally). You will find many people who claim that sal****er ich is inherent in all marine fish and can't be cured. These people will advise you to improve your water quality, and the ich will go away. I agree that it will. For about 2 weeks, until the next generation of the parasite gets to the fish-sucking stage. The only cure for marine ich (AK cryptocaryon) is copper sulphate. Unfortunately, adding this to your reef tank will kill lots of stuff you really need (for example, your live rock becomes dead rock), so you need a Q tank to treat your fish. It also needs to be big enough to keep all your fish alive for the month that it takes to allow the ich to die out in your main tank. Better to quarantine your fish so that ich doesn't get into your tank in the first place. George Patterson If you torture the data long enough, eventually it will confess to anything.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Dunno if anyone is still checkin this thread but... Tank is up and running with all the live rock, substrate was put in this weekend, lots of algae forming, bio cycle appears to be complete (ammonia went up and then back down etc)...did a 15% water change Sunday night and tank seems to be running fairly happily. Tonight I'm going to be adding a small cleaning crew - likely 3 snails and a crab, to start dealing with the algae...looks like we're starting to get close to 'go' time. Mitch |
Starting a reef tank
As far as cycle goes, you will reach prime in about
1 year. Wayne Sallee Big Habeeb wrote on 10/22/2007 12:36 PM: Dunno if anyone is still checkin this thread but... Tank is up and running with all the live rock, substrate was put in this weekend, lots of algae forming, bio cycle appears to be complete (ammonia went up and then back down etc)...did a 15% water change Sunday night and tank seems to be running fairly happily. Tonight I'm going to be adding a small cleaning crew - likely 3 snails and a crab, to start dealing with the algae...looks like we're starting to get close to 'go' time. Mitch |
Starting a reef tank
On Oct 22, 8:51 pm, "August West"
wrote: Have the nitrites spiked yet? Ammonia spikes, then the nitrites do. "Big Habeeb" wrote in message oups.com... On Oct 16, 12:17 am, "August West" wrote: This stuff worked for me...http://www.aquariumguys.com/kickich1.htmlI have no idea whats in it but it is copper free. I quarantined my Atlanic Blue Tang after I got him. I finally put him in the big tank and about a week later - Blam! He had ich all over him. Theres no way to catch a fish in that tank, so I tried Kick-Ich out of desparation. It worked, and none of the inverts were affected. Nothing happened to the nitrite, nitrate, or ammonia levels, so I assume it left all the bacteria alone. Now I use garlic and cleaner shrimp in the big tank. Whenever I get new fish, they get the Kick-Ich treatment in the quarantine tank. When I move them to the big tank, it gets a Kick Ich treatment also. Expensive, but effective. Its best to leave the skimmer off on "dose day" "George Patterson" wrote in message news:jnVQi.2423$et1.1204@trnddc02... Big Habeeb wrote: I think my surprise was more in general that ich was an issue (not that I needed to keep a Q tank) - One of the solutions I'd used with a decent amount of success in battling ich in the past was adding a small amount of sea salt to my freshwater tanks....not enough to even impact the spc gravity particularly, but it seemed to do a good job of battling off the nasty ich...in most cases even more so than the recommended chemicals (and I prefer not to use chemicals anyway). Freshwater ich and sal****er ich are two completely different animals (literally). You will find many people who claim that sal****er ich is inherent in all marine fish and can't be cured. These people will advise you to improve your water quality, and the ich will go away. I agree that it will. For about 2 weeks, until the next generation of the parasite gets to the fish-sucking stage. The only cure for marine ich (AK cryptocaryon) is copper sulphate. Unfortunately, adding this to your reef tank will kill lots of stuff you really need (for example, your live rock becomes dead rock), so you need a Q tank to treat your fish. It also needs to be big enough to keep all your fish alive for the month that it takes to allow the ich to die out in your main tank. Better to quarantine your fish so that ich doesn't get into your tank in the first place. George Patterson If you torture the data long enough, eventually it will confess to anything.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Dunno if anyone is still checkin this thread but... Tank is up and running with all the live rock, substrate was put in this weekend, lots of algae forming, bio cycle appears to be complete (ammonia went up and then back down etc)...did a 15% water change Sunday night and tank seems to be running fairly happily. Tonight I'm going to be adding a small cleaning crew - likely 3 snails and a crab, to start dealing with the algae...looks like we're starting to get close to 'go' time. Mitch- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Yup, nitrites have gone up and down etc. LFS confirmed, cycle has completed...plus the presence of a wicked amount of either algae or colerpa (see new thread posted today). |
Starting a reef tank
On Oct 22, 2:28 pm, Wayne Sallee wrote:
As far as cycle goes, you will reach prime in about 1 year. Wayne Sallee Big Habeeb wrote on 10/22/2007 12:36 PM: Dunno if anyone is still checkin this thread but... Tank is up and running with all the live rock, substrate was put in this weekend, lots of algae forming, bio cycle appears to be complete (ammonia went up and then back down etc)...did a 15% water change Sunday night and tank seems to be running fairly happily. Tonight I'm going to be adding a small cleaning crew - likely 3 snails and a crab, to start dealing with the algae...looks like we're starting to get close to 'go' time. Mitch- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Please explain? |
Starting a reef tank
That's when you will look into the tank, and see
that you have arrived, it now looks like a nice balanced reef tank. It takes time of slowly adding critters and getting *everything* in balance. You are building an ecosystem. It does not happen over night. One can go faster, but someone new to reefkeeping can get into big trouble going too fast. :-) Wayne Sallee Big Habeeb wrote on 10/23/2007 1:50 PM: On Oct 22, 2:28 pm, Wayne Sallee wrote: As far as cycle goes, you will reach prime in about 1 year. Wayne Sallee Big Habeeb wrote on 10/22/2007 12:36 PM: Dunno if anyone is still checkin this thread but... Tank is up and running with all the live rock, substrate was put in this weekend, lots of algae forming, bio cycle appears to be complete (ammonia went up and then back down etc)...did a 15% water change Sunday night and tank seems to be running fairly happily. Tonight I'm going to be adding a small cleaning crew - likely 3 snails and a crab, to start dealing with the algae...looks like we're starting to get close to 'go' time. Mitch- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Please explain? |
Starting a reef tank
Big Habeeb wrote:
Please explain? Nitrites get turned into nitrates. To a great extent, these are handled by anaerobic bacteria which live inside your rock. These are very slow-growing, but, after about a year, you will not need to do as many water changes and your algae problems will be much reduced. George Patterson If you torture the data long enough, eventually it will confess to anything. |
Starting a reef tank
They are not that slow growing. Just cut off all of
the oxygen from the tank, and you will have 0 nitrates over night. Wayne Sallee George Patterson wrote on 10/23/2007 9:57 PM: Big Habeeb wrote: Please explain? Nitrites get turned into nitrates. To a great extent, these are handled by anaerobic bacteria which live inside your rock. These are very slow-growing, but, after about a year, you will not need to do as many water changes and your algae problems will be much reduced. George Patterson If you torture the data long enough, eventually it will confess to anything. |
Starting a reef tank
"Wayne Sallee" wrote in message ...
They are not that slow growing. Just cut off all of the oxygen from the tank, and you will have 0 nitrates over night. And 0 live fish :-) |
Starting a reef tank
Wayne Sallee wrote:
They are not that slow growing. Just cut off all of the oxygen from the tank, and you will have 0 nitrates over night. Then all your other bacteria die off and the nitrate producing bacteria die off because they don't have any food. Now you're back to cycling your tank again from scratch, but you've turned your live rock into dead rock. I'll stick with "they take a long time." George Patterson If you torture the data long enough, eventually it will confess to anything. |
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