steve wrote:
Ozdude wrote:



I am shocked at how filthy my gravel was and I can't begin to stress

how

important it is you get a really good gravel cleaner that suits your

tank. I

was using a cleaner suitable for a small tank and when I bought the

new 22"

one I'd say it sucked up 400% more junk on it's first use that the

little

one just wasn't able to pull up out of the substrate.



If this is true, don't you think people who use soil or even mammal
dung in their tank substrate would have massive water quality problems?
A large portion of the planted tank keepers do no deep gravel vac'ing
at all.

I always found that using sand prevented any build-up of waste. Also,
with large gravel, fish food always makes its way in between the stones
before it's eaten. All my aquariums have a top layer of sand. One has a
bottom layer of Fluorite, a top layer of sand and then a light
sprinkling of pea gravel. There's really no point in vacuuming unless
there's an unsightly collection of fish poops. The drawback with sand is
that the muck will build up in the filter, if it's powerful enough to
draw it in.

Nikki

"Gill Passman" gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk wrote in message
.. .
So the English are now farming out their "more interesting" TV progs to
you
guys...hey it might be revenge for Neighbours - lol
Gill

A Place In Spain is currently airing on ABC1 - Oh dear they even whinge and
carry on in Wales by the looks of it :)

We've had A Place in Italy (disliked Paul immensly and I thought they were a
pair of snobby losers to be honest), A Place in Greece and A Place in
France, which was the best of them so far imo.

I'm sure we'll get the whole series one after the other when ABC2 (digital)
starts up on Monday. I know we're getting that fantastic NZ production "The
Tribe" on ABC2 Digital :)

Sorry for being OT but I couldn't help commenting on these programs.

I am glad I'm an ex-pat brit - proud to be an Ozzy/Aussie ;)

Oz

--
My Aquatic web Blog is at http://members.optusnet.com.au/ivan.smith

Ozdude wrote:
I've also seen tanks with Val. planted in sand and every time I've seen the
owners vacuum, they only do the surface mulm and detritus on the sand
surface - they never dig the siphon in

The most I can do is shake the gravel vac above the sand substrate. This
causes turbulence which detaches the detritus matter from its resting
place and then goes straight up the tube. If I dig in I'll decapitate
some leaves.

Nikki

Elaine T wrote:
BTW, chin up! You're beating yourself up unfairly. This can be a
challenging hobby at time and you've been doing your absolute best.



This, I'm in total agreement with. You are doing a fantastic job, Oz.
Keep up the good work. Not only do you show ample ability to research
and learn, you are also obviously a very caring guy.

good luck,
steve

"Ozdude" wrote in message
...

"Elaine T" wrote in message
om...
If you can get it, feed food soaked in dissolved oxytetracycline for 10
days. The advantage of medicated food is that it won't affect your
filter
the way PP, acriflavine, or dissolved antibiotics would. I agree with
others that it doesn't sound like flexibacter, but oxytetracycline is
broad-spectrum and good for many fish diseases.

You're already cleaning the tank and keeping the fish in very clean
water,
which is the other key for managing a disease.

BTW, chin up! You're beating yourself up unfairly. This can be a
challenging hobby at time and you've been doing your absolute best.

Thnaks for your encouraging words. I'm not really beating myself up as far
as I can see. It's just one of the many aspects to this hobby. I was a
little astounded that a substrate that *looked healthy* was actually a
festering mess just below the surface.

I've treated with a broad-spectrum tri-suphur and Pima and MelaFix. I am
well aware, and prapared to lose my filter bacteria during this period,
but
I have ammonia quelling water conditioner (in an emergency) and a mature
filter sponge set I can restablish (seed) the main tank with pretty
quickly
once all the meds are finished with.

I figure if it isn't Flex but it's still a baterial thing then global
cleansing is needed, not just the fish. I just hope what I have done so
far
is enough. Lowering the temperature just isn't possible at the moment
because the ambient temperature is so high during the day. I did notice
the
heaters come on in the big tank tonight, so I pulled their power, but it
still hasn't dropped below 27C.

Daily gravel cleaning and water changes are the order of the day after the
next three days, for approximately a fortnight and if there is another
outbreak then I will consider shifting all remaining fish to a
holding/Hospital tank, same for the plants, breaking the display tank down
and steralizing everything in it, including the gravel, all filters and
media replacement, and then restarting it with a fishless cycling and re
populate it slowly after the cycle has completed. It's an opportunity to
get
it more right than currently, more than anything else.

I have my eye on a 100L cube tank at LFS#1 which can hold the fish
(substrateless to begin with) while I medicate them some more and while
the
main tank is being made safe. It may be a little crowded in the holding
tank
and some of them may feel a little exposed because the plants will not be
in
that tank as they need a seperate steralizing technique. I told you I was
catching MTS ;)

I agree that a diligent cleaning routine is now required and i'm about 70%
there to preventing it happening again.

I see it as more of an opportunity than a problem, truth be known. I feel
for the fish that are dying, but I also have a perspective on that and I
know it's not really my direct intentional doing - more ignorance.

**** happens, and it's just really what you make of it more than it
happening ;)

Oz

--
My Aquatic web Blog is at http://members.optusnet.com.au/ivan.smith


All of this really emphasises that any changes we make need to be monitored
for the effect that they have on the tank, fish and the balance in
there.....and I've just had the lesson drummed into me (fortunately everyone
in the tank looks happy and healthy at the moment)....

Last weekend I took the Internal Pump out of my Community Tank and put it
into my son's new tank in order to save a "crisis" - external has been
running for over 2 months so I thought this would be OK but I promised
myself I would keep close tabs on my tank but with one thing or another
workwise didn't :-(.

Tested the water today (day earlier than usual) prompted by what's being
going on with Oz - and yep detected ammonia. It's somewhere between 0.6 and
1.2 mg/L - the highest I've ever had. pH is 7.5, nitrite 0 and nitrate 5 -
kicking myself for not testing sooner. Anyway just done a 25% change and
good vacuum of the gravel (not too bad at the front but pretty dirty at the
back where the plants are).

So it's continual monitoring and water changes for the next few days....and
checking out the external pump.

Ozdude wrote:

I read on a betta site last night that C.f. actually does have some highly
resistant strains now, something like the super-bug in hospitals that no
anti-biotic can beat.

I was a nurse, hence my dislike of over use of antibiotics ;)

There is always the option too of breaking the tank down - completely
disinfecting and steralizing it and starting again, which in itself isn't
such a bad thing. At least you get a second chance to get your aquascaping
and things you got wrong first time around, right ;)

An opiton here too right now.


I treated my tank with tri-sulphur and the two XXXXfix fluids today and I
had a bit of a brainstorm about mediacted food - instead of flakes, pellets
or bloodworms - they got fed sinking wafers in a DIY feeder which prevents
it from settling on the substrate (an inverted plastic lid with a sucker
attached - half way down the water column which acts as a platform). As the
food absorbs the water it takes up the meds and you have a sort of crude
medicated feed. I figured it wouldn't hurt them because it's also getting
into their blood via respiration through the gill membranes.

Where did you get the tri-sulphur? I like you combination of medications.

I get annoyed that I can't get antibiotics for fish until I start to think
of what could happen. In the long run I don't suppose it will help Aust.
b/c the countries that allow free use of antibiotics will bring in their
resistant bugs here anyway.


This is why our quarantine is so full on - Australia prides itself on it's
freedom from o/s problems like this. BSE is a good example of this policy in
action.
Yeah, but the humans can still walk right through :(
I'm a farmer now and get quite cranky when people say how they managed
to get such and such through customs.


I just heard it is forecast to get to 36 here tomorrow - it's autumn isn't
it?


It is indeed, but over the last decade at least I've noticed the seasons
moving to slightly later into the year. There are also the El Ninio and La
Nina effects we have influencing the weather here ;(

SOI has fairly dropped so we are on our way to another El Nino probably.

Oz

Up in one of your other posts (which I cna't now find) I saw that you
can't get PP. Did you try a chemist? When I was nursing we used to use
it for bathing kids with infected scabies.

I can now get into that website btw.

Also, does anyone know if PP will stain any tank equipment? It sure
makes a mess of a white bathtub.

Oz, it is so good having you here as a fellow Aussie who understands the
problems of the antibiotic lack. So much of the net where I've asked
questions the replies have been to use this or that antibiotic and when
you say you can't, it's like, tough titty or what planet do you come
from. You have dragged much more info out of everyone here than I have
been able to anywhere - GREAT WORK!!!


miskairal

"steve" wrote in message
oups.com...

This, I'm in total agreement with. You are doing a fantastic job, Oz.
Keep up the good work. Not only do you show ample ability to research
and learn, you are also obviously a very caring guy.

Thanks so much for the kind words of support. I am a forearmed is
forewarned/All Things..type of guy, but I didn't expect this to happen, but
then again who does? ;)

I checked the tank this morning and everything seems to be fine - first day
of not waking to losses.

The Serpae and Black Phantoms Tetras are doing their little vibrational
mating dances all over the tank and are really getting in to the Blue
Stricta Forrest ;)

I am just going to keep my daily cleaning routine up now for 10 more days or
so, and we'll see how that pans out. If that's what's required then I'll par
it back to 2 X a week then back to weekly.

Talk about scary! ;) Still it adds variety to life ;)


good luck,

Thanks and the same to you.

Oz

--
My Aquatic web Blog is at http://members.optusnet.com.au/ivan.smith

"Gill Passman" gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk wrote in message
.. .

All of this really emphasises that any changes we make need to be
monitored
for the effect that they have on the tank, fish and the balance in
there.....and I've just had the lesson drummed into me (fortunately
everyone
in the tank looks happy and healthy at the moment)....

It brings me to a generalised method: "small changes, one at a time and
monitor". ;)


Last weekend I took the Internal Pump out of my Community Tank and put it
into my son's new tank in order to save a "crisis" - external has been
running for over 2 months so I thought this would be OK but I promised
myself I would keep close tabs on my tank but with one thing or another
workwise didn't :-(.

The great thing about these "accidents" though is that we learn and move and
on. It's only a fool that keep making the same mistakes;)

Tested the water today (day earlier than usual) prompted by what's being
going on with Oz - and yep detected ammonia. It's somewhere between 0.6
and
1.2 mg/L - the highest I've ever had. pH is 7.5, nitrite 0 and nitrate 5 -
kicking myself for not testing sooner. Anyway just done a 25% change and
good vacuum of the gravel (not too bad at the front but pretty dirty at
the
back where the plants are).

So it's continual monitoring and water changes for the next few
days....and
checking out the external pump.

I think it *is* possible to strike a balance between maintainence and
enjoyment with tanks ;)

You can't apparently have the blance the whole time but most of the time if
you do the ground work first ;)

Have a great day!

Oz

--
My Aquatic web Blog is at http://members.optusnet.com.au/ivan.smith

"miskairal" wrote in message
...
Ozdude wrote:

I read on a betta site last night that C.f. actually does have some
highly resistant strains now, something like the super-bug in hospitals
that no anti-biotic can beat.

I was a nurse, hence my dislike of over use of antibiotics ;)

I avoid them for myself. Result? A pretty robust immune system - I don't get
sick, or very, very rarely ;)

I treated my tank with tri-sulphur and the two XXXXfix fluids today and I
had a bit of a brainstorm about mediacted food - instead of flakes,
pellets or bloodworms - they got fed sinking wafers in a DIY feeder which
prevents it from settling on the substrate (an inverted plastic lid with
a sucker attached - half way down the water column which acts as a
platform). As the food absorbs the water it takes up the meds and you
have a sort of crude medicated feed. I figured it wouldn't hurt them
because it's also getting into their blood via respiration through the
gill membranes.

Where did you get the tri-sulphur? I like you combination of medications.

From the LFS a while ago. They're Aqua Master brand Tri-Sulfa Tablets -
yellow label.

1 tablet dissolved for each 40L of water. They contain Sulfadiazine 135.5mg,
Sulfadimine 154.7mg and Slufamerazine 154.1mg as monosudium salts.

The label states in part "As an aid in control...Mouth and Body Fungus
(Culmnaris spp.)...."

I try not to use them unless I have to because they knock out all bacteria
and they are a pretty full-on thing to use by my estimation.

Still, when I do use them they seem to work in just one doseage.

SOI has fairly dropped so we are on our way to another El Nino probably.

I just want the dams to fill up again ;) I'm used to El Ninio, but I'm over
dry weather - some rain for a few days would be wonderful ;)

Up in one of your other posts (which I cna't now find) I saw that you
can't get PP. Did you try a chemist? When I was nursing we used to use it
for bathing kids with infected scabies.

I can now get into that website btw.

I can get it - it's not a sourcing issue - it's my finance issue ;)

Also, does anyone know if PP will stain any tank equipment? It sure makes
a mess of a white bathtub.

I believe it does. I've read many a aquatic medication page on the web where
they talk about PP treatments and every one of them has mentioned that it
will stain things orange or pink. Apparently H2O2 will oxydise/neutralise
it, but then we start going down a chemical spiral road as far as I'm
concerned - this is why I'm a bit hesitant to use it in the first place. I
don't think I would treat a whole display tank with it.

Oz, it is so good having you here as a fellow Aussie who understands the
problems of the antibiotic lack. So much of the net where I've asked
questions the replies have been to use this or that antibiotic and when
you say you can't, it's like, tough titty or what planet do you come from.
You have dragged much more info out of everyone here than I have been able
to anywhere - GREAT WORK!!!

Hey! that's what these discussion groups are for. It's why I love them and
frequent them daily - the exchange of information, views and thoughts are
far beyond days worth of Gooogling. I fugure, especially with aquaria, there
is every chance that someone has had either the specific problem or
something like it and can relate some experience on the matters. You also
meet some really nice people, as people too ;)

There are also the more experienced people around who are just wonderful,
mature and compassionate.

Truth be known, if it wasn't for the help and non-judgmental advice received
over these last few months, I would have sold the fish plants and equipment
and given the hobby up. There was a time where it just seemed too much
bother for me to be bothered with, but I am now very into it, AND I also
have better than average skills and knowledge which gives me a leg-up when I
go for that job at the pet shop, in the aquatic section ;) :)

Have a great day! and stay cool (fish as well).

Oz


--
My Aquatic web Blog is at http://members.optusnet.com.au/ivan.smith

Ozdude wrote:
"miskairal" wrote in message
...

Ozdude wrote:

I read on a betta site last night that C.f. actually does have some
highly resistant strains now, something like the super-bug in hospitals
that no anti-biotic can beat.

I was a nurse, hence my dislike of over use of antibiotics ;)


I avoid them for myself. Result? A pretty robust immune system - I don't get
sick, or very, very rarely ;)

Me too. My 21 year old son recently thanked a doctor for being the first
not to try and fob him off with antibiotics


I treated my tank with tri-sulphur and the two XXXXfix fluids today and I
had a bit of a brainstorm about mediacted food - instead of flakes,
pellets or bloodworms - they got fed sinking wafers in a DIY feeder which
prevents it from settling on the substrate (an inverted plastic lid with
a sucker attached - half way down the water column which acts as a
platform). As the food absorbs the water it takes up the meds and you
have a sort of crude medicated feed. I figured it wouldn't hurt them
because it's also getting into their blood via respiration through the
gill membranes.

Where did you get the tri-sulphur? I like you combination of medications.


From the LFS a while ago. They're Aqua Master brand Tri-Sulfa Tablets -
yellow label.

1 tablet dissolved for each 40L of water. They contain Sulfadiazine 135.5mg,
Sulfadimine 154.7mg and Slufamerazine 154.1mg as monosudium salts.

The label states in part "As an aid in control...Mouth and Body Fungus
(Culmnaris spp.)...."

I try not to use them unless I have to because they knock out all bacteria
and they are a pretty full-on thing to use by my estimation.

Still, when I do use them they seem to work in just one doseage.

Thanks! I will try to get the lfs in my tiny town to get some in. I
might lose the good bacteria but it's better than losing the fish and I
have another tank I can steal from :)


SOI has fairly dropped so we are on our way to another El Nino probably.


I just want the dams to fill up again ;) I'm used to El Ninio, but I'm over
dry weather - some rain for a few days would be wonderful ;)

You ought to see the dust here. I actually bought an eye bath thingy to
use b/c our eyes are so gritted up :(


Up in one of your other posts (which I cna't now find) I saw that you
can't get PP. Did you try a chemist? When I was nursing we used to use it
for bathing kids with infected scabies.

I can now get into that website btw.


I can get it - it's not a sourcing issue - it's my finance issue ;)

I just assumed it would be cheap. I might end up thinking twice about it
myself when I find out a price.

Also, does anyone know if PP will stain any tank equipment? It sure makes
a mess of a white bathtub.


I believe it does. I've read many a aquatic medication page on the web where
they talk about PP treatments and every one of them has mentioned that it
will stain things orange or pink. Apparently H2O2 will oxydise/neutralise
it, but then we start going down a chemical spiral road as far as I'm
concerned - this is why I'm a bit hesitant to use it in the first place. I
don't think I would treat a whole display tank with it.

Oz, it is so good having you here as a fellow Aussie who understands the
problems of the antibiotic lack. So much of the net where I've asked
questions the replies have been to use this or that antibiotic and when
you say you can't, it's like, tough titty or what planet do you come from.
You have dragged much more info out of everyone here than I have been able
to anywhere - GREAT WORK!!!


Hey! that's what these discussion groups are for. It's why I love them and
frequent them daily - the exchange of information, views and thoughts are
far beyond days worth of Gooogling. I fugure, especially with aquaria, there
is every chance that someone has had either the specific problem or
something like it and can relate some experience on the matters. You also
meet some really nice people, as people too ;)

There are also the more experienced people around who are just wonderful,
mature and compassionate.

Truth be known, if it wasn't for the help and non-judgmental advice received
over these last few months, I would have sold the fish plants and equipment
and given the hobby up. There was a time where it just seemed too much
bother for me to be bothered with, but I am now very into it, AND I also
have better than average skills and knowledge which gives me a leg-up when I
go for that job at the pet shop, in the aquatic section ;) :)

Have a great day! and stay cool (fish as well).

It's 11.30am and already up to 30 :)
Air con might be the solution to owning tropical fish in a tropical
climate eh?

Cheers
miskairal