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"Boomer" wrote in message ... You do ? I have never seen a calculator that does chemistry equations. I would love to have one. C6H12N2 + 4HNO3 + 2NH4NO3 + 6(CH3CO)2O2 = ???????????????????????????? There are, in fact computer programs out there that do, in fact, calculate chemical reactions. This was my original question. I was asking where I could get a copy of one. and how many mM of each you need to get ??????????? x amount of ????????????? Ok fun is over. For use a year ago a computer guy we know did two of them. One of them is now in version two and does more to include Mg. He just released a new visual-aid one after I had him make a change toe the NSW target area.You can use the first on reef tanks or FW, however, YOU CAN NOT type 0 Ca or 0 anything anywhere, it must be at least 1 for Ca. For Alk you can do 10's, as in .1 Still do not due the bicarb and chloride but the kalk http://home.comcast.net/~jdieck1/chem_calc3.html This is similar to what I'm looking for, but I'd like to enter more parameters. Visual Aid ..........You may not be able to see this if you are not running java scripting http://www.reefnerds.com/ChemPlot/ChemPlot.html I like this one too. Thanks for the links. If I go away who will correct your errors :-) -- Boomer Oh, I'm sure that there are other trolls lurcking about. |
George you just like to get beat on don't you :-)
Lets take these apart now "If there is nothing but pure water, then the pH will be 7. Are you saying that everytime one's pH gets close to 7 on the pH scale, we should ask for a refund from the manufacturer of our probes and pH kits?" THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS ABSOLUTE PURE WATER WITH A pH OF 7. The water that come closest is triple distilled water. Just because a sample of water has a pH 7 does not mean it is pure. My tap water is 7 and comes from a big lake. Where did you come up with this pH 7 anyway ? pH is a function of temp, conductivity and mostly its CO2 and Alk. It goes like this, in Dick & Jane terms CO2 x Alk = pH. They are sometimes referred to as Buch-Park Equations. I have posted on them before here and extensively, do a search. You can have a pH of 7.00 with a low CO2 and Alk or a pH of 7.00 with a high CO2 and Alk, or for that mater a pH of 6, 8 ,9, pick one. I have them programmed in to my calculator, so when people ask what is my CO2 level if my pH is x and the Alk is y, as you can not measure CO2 in seawater with any test kit, even if they say you can. There are also tables on the net on CO2 but only FW. B-P Eq. are given in many seawater chemistry books and I have about 10 of them. I have talked to the worlds leading expert on the subject, Dr. Frank Milero, look his name up on a search engine. I also have his office phone number. Many test kits are inaccurate. Why do think people come here and to forums and say this; " I just bought another pH test kit.........MAD.......now I have three and one says pH 8.3, one 8.0 and the other 7.8, which one do I believe. It is a very, very common question George, same for other kits. Where did I say that as the meter/kit approaches pH 7 it is more inaccurate, no where. Quite dreaming things up :-) "So you are still insisting that RO water cannot be acidic, that it cannot contain CO2, and that it is all a myth of the pH meters? Hmmm. Some RO manufacturers think that you are full of bull****:" Where did I say RO water cannot be acidic George, no where, you just made that up, show me where ....a quote please.Where did I say RO water can not have CO2. Quite reading into things they will get you in trouble. It is well known that RO water can be acidic and is the reason behind names like "aggressive water", "reactive water". I never said RO water had a pH that was not acid now did I , please give a quote. If you are going to make claims then quote it. I said a kit or meter can give false readings arcos the board. The readings are not reliably. So you want to post Spectra Pure's website yeh. Where on that website does it say what the expected pH of RO water is OR WHERE on that website do they tell you about measuring the pH of RO water. I wonder why that is. So George, if you have a RO unit with a TFM, 65 PSI of water pressure, a recovery rate of 4:1 and the tap water has 10 ppm CO2. how much of that CO2 gets through the membrane all or some or what. One of the biggest problems for most with RO/DI water, is that it sits in a container and gets exposed to ambient CO2, which just races into the water and lowers the pH "Aeration or de-gassification of RO product water is recommended for removal of carbon dioxide" Well, I would hope so, especially that sitting I said this "RO water has virtually no CO2", that is why when it is exposed to ambient air the pH drops." That was in error somewhat, as RO water CO2 content, is a function of the tap water CO2 level and how much gets through the membrane. Also, "virtually no CO2" does not mean it can't lower the pH, as it does not take much with about 0 buffers. "All impurities will be rejected, but oxygen (O2) and CO2 that is a gas and smaller than the water molecule, will slip through the reverse osmosis membrane and affect the pH of the product water." Not all of the CO2 and O2 slips by and...... O2 has NO EFFECT on pH ....PERIOD Did you see this on your own link "Bitter/astringent - excess CO2 in RO water lowers pH", which means not all RO has excess CO2 From George Slusarczuk "Hello Michael, You are absolutely right! Even among chemists it is a very little known fact, that the pH of distilled (and RO) water can not be measured. Let me correct that: It CAN be measured, but the value is meaningless! (That does NOT mean that distilled water has "no pH" -- just that we can not measure it using methods available to a hobbyist -- and that includes "research grade" electronic pH meters!) I know of only one commonly available reference (the ASTM volume on water) where this is spelled out in plain English (if only in a footnote). I will not go into the technical reasons for it. The pH of RO water probably will not be the same as that of starting water, because the exclusion of ions by the RO membrane is not uniform across the periodic table and the residual ionic equilibrium will be different from that in the source water. But, as you mentioned, the RO water is not buffered, so it really does not matter: anything added to it will change its pH. "You are, obviously, right that the dissociation constant of pure water is 10^-14. But do you think that a *hobbyist* can determine such a dissociation constant in the fish-room? I don't think so! As I mentioned in my original post, The ASTM volume on water (I think that it is volume 18 A & B, but am not certain) in the section on measuring pH, gives that warning about measuring pH of pure water. Right now I don't have access to that work, so can not cite the exact page reference. The classic reference is Clark's "Determination of Hydrogen Ions", from the 1920's. If we take a medium-grade distilled water, resistivity of, say, 1 megohm or better, then in a colorimetric determination one drop of an indicator solution will be the dominant source of hydrogen ions. You will get a measurement, but it will be that of the resulting diluted indicator solution, not of the original water. An electronic pH meter is just a high impedance Volt meter. If the resistance of the medium is too high, and one is using a *glass* electrode, (not quinhydrone/sat. calomel half-cells) -- the reading will drift -- because the instrument can not reliably measure the 59 mV/decade that it is required to do, to measure pH. This is easily provable, if one has access to *fresh* (without dissolved CO2) 10 megohm (or better) water then the drift is very obvious. (The quinhydrone/sat. calomel half-cells are not something that a hobbyist would want to try either.) I know of one way to circumvent this problem but, again, that is not something a hobbyist should try in his/her fishroom (because of danger of contamination and subsequent false measurements): Per 25 mL of sample add 1 drop of a 10 mM KCl solution of 99.9999% (6N) purity, prepared in an acid-washed Teflon volumetric flask, using 10 megohm (or better) water. It will lower the resistivity sufficiently, that a "research grade" (very high impedance) pH meter, equipped with a quality glass electrode, will be able to measure it with some assurance of accuracy and precision. Best, George There are George special and expensive pH sensor probes for measuring RO/DI water. Do you think that there would be such a thing if one could use a normal test kit or pH meter ??? http://www.rodisystems.com/PDF%20fil...odel%20105.pdf Boomer Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php Former US Army Bomb Technician (EOD) Member; IABTI, NATEODA, WEODF, ISEE & IPS If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up |
I forgot, getting old
We have been helping Randy , collecting data and such, on a new article, it will be out soon, it is on RO/DI units and the chemistry of them. Later, don't know when yet, we have been collecting stuff for a long time but there will be one out when ever, on pH test kits and their chemistry -- Boomer Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php Former US Army Bomb Technician (EOD) Member; IABTI, NATEODA, WEODF, ISEE & IPS If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up "Boomer" wrote in message ... : George you just like to get beat on don't you :-) : : Lets take these apart now : : "If there is nothing but pure water, then the pH will be 7. Are you saying that : everytime one's pH gets close to 7 on the pH scale, we should ask for a refund : from the manufacturer of our probes and pH kits?" : : THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS ABSOLUTE PURE WATER WITH A pH OF 7. The water that come closest : is triple distilled water. Just because a sample of water has a pH 7 does not mean it is : pure. My tap water is 7 and comes from a big lake. Where did you come up with this pH 7 : anyway ? pH is a function of temp, conductivity and mostly its CO2 and Alk. It goes like : this, in Dick & Jane terms CO2 x Alk = pH. They are sometimes referred to as Buch-Park : Equations. I have posted on them before here and extensively, do a search. You can have a : pH of 7.00 with a low CO2 and Alk or a pH of 7.00 with a high CO2 and Alk, or for that : mater a pH of 6, 8 ,9, pick one. I have them programmed in to my calculator, so when : people ask what is my CO2 level if my pH is x and the Alk is y, as you can not measure CO2 : in seawater with any test kit, even if they say you can. There are also tables on the net : on CO2 but only FW. B-P Eq. are given in many seawater chemistry books and I have about 10 : of them. I have talked to the worlds leading expert on the subject, Dr. Frank Milero, look : his name up on a search engine. I also have his office phone number. : : Many test kits are inaccurate. Why do think people come here and to forums and say this; " : I just bought another pH test kit.........MAD.......now I have three and one says pH 8.3, : one 8.0 and the other 7.8, which one do I believe. It is a very, very common question : George, same for other kits. Where did I say that as the meter/kit approaches pH 7 it is : more inaccurate, no where. Quite dreaming things up :-) : : : "So you are still insisting that RO water cannot be acidic, that it cannot : contain CO2, and that it is all a myth of the pH meters? Hmmm. Some RO : manufacturers think that you are full of bull****:" : : Where did I say RO water cannot be acidic George, no where, you just made that up, show me : where ....a quote please.Where did I say RO water can not have CO2. Quite reading into : things they will get you in trouble. It is well known that RO water can be acidic and is : the reason behind names like "aggressive water", "reactive water". I never said RO water : had a pH that was not acid now did I , please give a quote. If you are going to make : claims then quote it. I said a kit or meter can give false readings arcos the board. The : readings are not reliably. So you want to post Spectra Pure's website yeh. Where on that : website does it say what the expected pH of RO water is OR WHERE on that website do they : tell you about measuring the pH of RO water. I wonder why that is. : : So George, if you have a RO unit with a TFM, 65 PSI of water pressure, a recovery rate of : 4:1 and the tap water has 10 ppm CO2. how much of that CO2 gets through the membrane all : or some or what. One of the biggest problems for most with RO/DI water, is that it sits in : a container and gets exposed to ambient CO2, which just races into the water and lowers : the pH : : "Aeration or de-gassification of RO product water is recommended for removal of : carbon dioxide" : : Well, I would hope so, especially that sitting : : I said this "RO water has virtually no CO2", that is why when it is exposed to ambient air : the pH drops." That was in error somewhat, as RO water CO2 content, is a function of the : tap water CO2 level and how much gets through the membrane. Also, "virtually no CO2" does : not mean it can't lower the pH, as it does not take much with about 0 buffers. : : "All impurities will be rejected, but oxygen (O2) and CO2 that is a gas and : smaller than the water molecule, will slip through the reverse osmosis membrane : and affect the pH of the product water." : : Not all of the CO2 and O2 slips by and...... O2 has NO EFFECT on pH ....PERIOD : : Did you see this on your own link "Bitter/astringent - excess CO2 in RO water lowers pH", : which means not all RO has excess CO2 : : : : From George Slusarczuk : : "Hello Michael, : : You are absolutely right! Even among chemists it is a very little known : fact, that the pH of distilled (and RO) water can not be measured. Let : me correct that: It CAN be measured, but the value is meaningless! (That : does NOT mean that distilled water has "no pH" -- just that we can not : measure it using methods available to a hobbyist -- and that includes : "research grade" electronic pH meters!) : : I know of only one commonly available reference (the ASTM volume on : water) where this is spelled out in plain English (if only in a : footnote). I will not go into the technical reasons for it. : : The pH of RO water probably will not be the same as that of starting : water, because the exclusion of ions by the RO membrane is not uniform : across the periodic table and the residual ionic equilibrium will be : different from that in the source water. But, as you mentioned, the RO : water is not buffered, so it really does not matter: anything added to : it will change its pH. : : "You are, obviously, right that the dissociation constant of pure water : is 10^-14. But do you think that a *hobbyist* can determine such a : dissociation constant in the fish-room? I don't think so! : : As I mentioned in my original post, The ASTM volume on water (I think : that it is volume 18 A & B, but am not certain) in the section on : measuring pH, gives that warning about measuring pH of pure water. Right : now I don't have access to that work, so can not cite the exact page : reference. The classic reference is Clark's "Determination of Hydrogen : Ions", from the 1920's. : : If we take a medium-grade distilled water, resistivity of, say, 1 megohm : or better, then in a colorimetric determination one drop of an indicator : solution will be the dominant source of hydrogen ions. You will get a : measurement, but it will be that of the resulting diluted indicator : solution, not of the original water. : : An electronic pH meter is just a high impedance Volt meter. If the : resistance of the medium is too high, and one is using a *glass* : electrode, (not quinhydrone/sat. calomel half-cells) -- the reading will : drift -- because the instrument can not reliably measure the 59 : mV/decade that it is required to do, to measure pH. This is easily : provable, if one has access to *fresh* (without dissolved CO2) 10 megohm : (or better) water then the drift is very obvious. (The quinhydrone/sat. : calomel half-cells are not something that a hobbyist would want to try : either.) : : I know of one way to circumvent this problem but, again, that is not : something a hobbyist should try in his/her fishroom (because of danger : of contamination and subsequent false measurements): Per 25 mL of sample : add 1 drop of a 10 mM KCl solution of 99.9999% (6N) purity, prepared in : an acid-washed Teflon volumetric flask, using 10 megohm (or better) : water. It will lower the resistivity sufficiently, that a "research : grade" (very high impedance) pH meter, equipped with a quality glass : electrode, will be able to measure it with some assurance of accuracy : and precision. : : : Best, George : : : There are George special and expensive pH sensor probes for measuring RO/DI water. Do you : think that there would be such a thing if one could use a normal test kit or pH meter ??? : : http://www.rodisystems.com/PDF%20fil...odel%20105.pdf : : : : Boomer : : Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum : http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php : : : Former US Army Bomb Technician (EOD) : Member; IABTI, NATEODA, WEODF, ISEE & IPS : : If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up : : : |
"Boomer" wrote in message ... George you just like to get beat on don't you :-) Lets take these apart now "If there is nothing but pure water, then the pH will be 7. Are you saying that everytime one's pH gets close to 7 on the pH scale, we should ask for a refund from the manufacturer of our probes and pH kits?" THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS ABSOLUTE PURE WATER WITH A pH OF 7. The water that come closest is triple distilled water. Just because a sample of water has a pH 7 does not mean it is pure. My tap water is 7 and comes from a big lake. Where did you come up with this pH 7 anyway ? pH is a function of temp, conductivity and mostly its CO2 and Alk. It goes like this, in Dick & Jane terms CO2 x Alk = pH. They are sometimes referred to as Buch-Park Equations. I have posted on them before here and extensively, do a search. You can have a pH of 7.00 with a low CO2 and Alk or a pH of 7.00 with a high CO2 and Alk, or for that mater a pH of 6, 8 ,9, pick one. I have them programmed in to my calculator, so when people ask what is my CO2 level if my pH is x and the Alk is y, as you can not measure CO2 in seawater with any test kit, even if they say you can. There are also tables on the net on CO2 but only FW. B-P Eq. are given in many seawater chemistry books and I have about 10 of them. I have talked to the worlds leading expert on the subject, Dr. Frank Milero, look his name up on a search engine. I also have his office phone number. Many test kits are inaccurate. Why do think people come here and to forums and say this; " I just bought another pH test kit.........MAD.......now I have three and one says pH 8.3, one 8.0 and the other 7.8, which one do I believe. It is a very, very common question George, same for other kits. Where did I say that as the meter/kit approaches pH 7 it is more inaccurate, no where. Quite dreaming things up :-) I realize that pH kits are innacurate. That is not the issue here. You said that pH is not real. If that were the case, then why bother ever measuring it? "So you are still insisting that RO water cannot be acidic, that it cannot contain CO2, and that it is all a myth of the pH meters? Hmmm. Some RO manufacturers think that you are full of bull****:" Where did I say RO water cannot be acidic George, no where, you just made that up, show me where ....a quote please.Where did I say RO water can not have CO2. I posted the fact that my RO water had a pH reading of 4.5. Do you remember your response, or do I have to juggle your memory? You said that "You CAN NOT measure the pH of RO/D water, there is nothing in the water to measure the pH. The readings are false, until it has some "salts" in it." And I've responded here that that is simply bonk, since RO water certainly does have something in it, especially if the source water contains CO2 in solution. Even RO manufacturers report that the pH of RO water is often low (i.e., 4-5). They do not say that the readings are false. They DO suggest that the reason for this is that CO2 in the source water will pass through the membrane, and that because there are no buffers in the water, the water will have a low pH. I've posted links to manufacturers web sites where they state this fact. Then you posted that RO water has a pH of 9 without ever explaining why this would be if all of the "salts" have been removed. If I was getting pH readings of 4.5 on time, and a pH of 9 another time, I would definitely believe that my pH measurements were way out of line. This has not been the case. My readings have been very consistent, regardless of whether I measure my salt water in my aquarium, the water from my tap, or the RO water. I can measure them repeatedly and get within 0.2 of the exact same readings every time. Quite reading into things they will get you in trouble. It is well known that RO water can be acidic and is the reason behind names like "aggressive water", "reactive water". I never said RO water had a pH that was not acid now did I , please give a quote. If you are going to make claims then quote it. I said a kit or meter can give false readings arcos the board. The readings are not reliably. So you want to post Spectra Pure's website yeh. Where on that website does it say what the expected pH of RO water is OR WHERE on that website do they tell you about measuring the pH of RO water. I wonder why that is. So George, if you have a RO unit with a TFM, 65 PSI of water pressure, a recovery rate of 4:1 and the tap water has 10 ppm CO2. how much of that CO2 gets through the membrane all or some or what. One of the biggest problems for most with RO/DI water, is that it sits in a container and gets exposed to ambient CO2, which just races into the water and lowers the pH I can and have taken readings as the water is being made up and still get 4.5-5.0. "Aeration or de-gassification of RO product water is recommended for removal of carbon dioxide" Well, I would hope so, especially that sitting I said this "RO water has virtually no CO2", that is why when it is exposed to ambient air the pH drops." That was in error somewhat, as RO water CO2 content, is a function of the tap water CO2 level and how much gets through the membrane. Also, "virtually no CO2" does not mean it can't lower the pH, as it does not take much with about 0 buffers. Ahem. This is what I said about 20 posts back. "All impurities will be rejected, but oxygen (O2) and CO2 that is a gas and smaller than the water molecule, will slip through the reverse osmosis membrane and affect the pH of the product water." Not all of the CO2 and O2 slips by and...... O2 has NO EFFECT on pH ....PERIOD Did you see this on your own link "Bitter/astringent - excess CO2 in RO water lowers pH", which means not all RO has excess CO2 Why the hell would I care if other RO doesn't have excess CO2? And whether there is "excess" or not is not an issue. If there are no buffers, but CO2 is present, the pH will be low, which is the case with MY unit, and what I've been saying all though this thread. From George Slusarczuk "Hello Michael, You are absolutely right! Even among chemists it is a very little known fact, that the pH of distilled (and RO) water can not be measured. Let me correct that: It CAN be measured, but the value is meaningless! (That does NOT mean that distilled water has "no pH" -- just that we can not measure it using methods available to a hobbyist -- and that includes "research grade" electronic pH meters!) http://www.finishing.com/258/08.shtml Here is some theory- H2O molecules have infinite resistance. It is ions that cause solutions to be conductive. Even perfectly pure water has some ions because of the equillibrium between H2O, H+ (ions), and OH- (ions). The concentration of the ions H+ and OH- in perfect water is 0.0000001 molar at 25º C. The pH of this water is exactly 7. |
"Boomer" wrote in message ...
"Have you ever tried to figure out what in the water exaclty is confusing the glass probe to produce strange milivolts like these shown by the pH meter as pH" No Pse and I don't know of anyone that cares. I could ask Mike Ross of Sensorex who designs pH and ORP probes If you dont forget, please do ask :-) p.s. is this the same guy Ross electrodes from Thermo Orion took name from ? |
Very nice read guys!!!
George - Sounds like Boomer is already using large lag bolts to close your coffin on this subject, why are you begging for him to weld it shut also? Your not Houdini reincarnate are you? I'm seeing what he is saying as measuring your RO water will give you meaningless measurements so there is not really a point in doing it hence not a stable place to make water chemistry decisions from, especially the sort you mention. Though I could be wrong and he may be just exercising our minds and I'm confused. Boomer- If I'm not still in your killfile... Cantankerous as ever, keep it up! :-) My question- Could either of you explain the reasoning why many recommend using a balanced additive to RO or RO/DI water prior to the addition of salt while others say do it after? Are there chemical reaction reasons one way is better? Thanks again, -- -- "George" wrote in message news:KLGce.29590$c24.28180@attbi_s72... "Boomer" wrote in message ... George you just like to get beat on don't you :-) Lets take these apart now "If there is nothing but pure water, then the pH will be 7. Are you saying that everytime one's pH gets close to 7 on the pH scale, we should ask for a refund from the manufacturer of our probes and pH kits?" THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS ABSOLUTE PURE WATER WITH A pH OF 7. The water that come closest is triple distilled water. Just because a sample of water has a pH 7 does not mean it is pure. My tap water is 7 and comes from a big lake. Where did you come up with this pH 7 anyway ? pH is a function of temp, conductivity and mostly its CO2 and Alk. It goes like this, in Dick & Jane terms CO2 x Alk = pH. They are sometimes referred to as Buch-Park Equations. I have posted on them before here and extensively, do a search. You can have a pH of 7.00 with a low CO2 and Alk or a pH of 7.00 with a high CO2 and Alk, or for that mater a pH of 6, 8 ,9, pick one. I have them programmed in to my calculator, so when people ask what is my CO2 level if my pH is x and the Alk is y, as you can not measure CO2 in seawater with any test kit, even if they say you can. There are also tables on the net on CO2 but only FW. B-P Eq. are given in many seawater chemistry books and I have about 10 of them. I have talked to the worlds leading expert on the subject, Dr. Frank Milero, look his name up on a search engine. I also have his office phone number. Many test kits are inaccurate. Why do think people come here and to forums and say this; " I just bought another pH test kit.........MAD.......now I have three and one says pH 8.3, one 8.0 and the other 7.8, which one do I believe. It is a very, very common question George, same for other kits. Where did I say that as the meter/kit approaches pH 7 it is more inaccurate, no where. Quite dreaming things up :-) I realize that pH kits are innacurate. That is not the issue here. You said that pH is not real. If that were the case, then why bother ever measuring it? "So you are still insisting that RO water cannot be acidic, that it cannot contain CO2, and that it is all a myth of the pH meters? Hmmm. Some RO manufacturers think that you are full of bull****:" Where did I say RO water cannot be acidic George, no where, you just made that up, show me where ....a quote please.Where did I say RO water can not have CO2. I posted the fact that my RO water had a pH reading of 4.5. Do you remember your response, or do I have to juggle your memory? You said that "You CAN NOT measure the pH of RO/D water, there is nothing in the water to measure the pH. The readings are false, until it has some "salts" in it." And I've responded here that that is simply bonk, since RO water certainly does have something in it, especially if the source water contains CO2 in solution. Even RO manufacturers report that the pH of RO water is often low (i.e., 4-5). They do not say that the readings are false. They DO suggest that the reason for this is that CO2 in the source water will pass through the membrane, and that because there are no buffers in the water, the water will have a low pH. I've posted links to manufacturers web sites where they state this fact. Then you posted that RO water has a pH of 9 without ever explaining why this would be if all of the "salts" have been removed. If I was getting pH readings of 4.5 on time, and a pH of 9 another time, I would definitely believe that my pH measurements were way out of line. This has not been the case. My readings have been very consistent, regardless of whether I measure my salt water in my aquarium, the water from my tap, or the RO water. I can measure them repeatedly and get within 0.2 of the exact same readings every time. Quite reading into things they will get you in trouble. It is well known that RO water can be acidic and is the reason behind names like "aggressive water", "reactive water". I never said RO water had a pH that was not acid now did I , please give a quote. If you are going to make claims then quote it. I said a kit or meter can give false readings arcos the board. The readings are not reliably. So you want to post Spectra Pure's website yeh. Where on that website does it say what the expected pH of RO water is OR WHERE on that website do they tell you about measuring the pH of RO water. I wonder why that is. So George, if you have a RO unit with a TFM, 65 PSI of water pressure, a recovery rate of 4:1 and the tap water has 10 ppm CO2. how much of that CO2 gets through the membrane all or some or what. One of the biggest problems for most with RO/DI water, is that it sits in a container and gets exposed to ambient CO2, which just races into the water and lowers the pH I can and have taken readings as the water is being made up and still get 4.5-5.0. "Aeration or de-gassification of RO product water is recommended for removal of carbon dioxide" Well, I would hope so, especially that sitting I said this "RO water has virtually no CO2", that is why when it is exposed to ambient air the pH drops." That was in error somewhat, as RO water CO2 content, is a function of the tap water CO2 level and how much gets through the membrane. Also, "virtually no CO2" does not mean it can't lower the pH, as it does not take much with about 0 buffers. Ahem. This is what I said about 20 posts back. "All impurities will be rejected, but oxygen (O2) and CO2 that is a gas and smaller than the water molecule, will slip through the reverse osmosis membrane and affect the pH of the product water." Not all of the CO2 and O2 slips by and...... O2 has NO EFFECT on pH ....PERIOD Did you see this on your own link "Bitter/astringent - excess CO2 in RO water lowers pH", which means not all RO has excess CO2 Why the hell would I care if other RO doesn't have excess CO2? And whether there is "excess" or not is not an issue. If there are no buffers, but CO2 is present, the pH will be low, which is the case with MY unit, and what I've been saying all though this thread. From George Slusarczuk "Hello Michael, You are absolutely right! Even among chemists it is a very little known fact, that the pH of distilled (and RO) water can not be measured. Let me correct that: It CAN be measured, but the value is meaningless! (That does NOT mean that distilled water has "no pH" -- just that we can not measure it using methods available to a hobbyist -- and that includes "research grade" electronic pH meters!) http://www.finishing.com/258/08.shtml Here is some theory- H2O molecules have infinite resistance. It is ions that cause solutions to be conductive. Even perfectly pure water has some ions because of the equillibrium between H2O, H+ (ions), and OH- (ions). The concentration of the ions H+ and OH- in perfect water is 0.0000001 molar at 25º C. The pH of this water is exactly 7. |
That is what Randy asked me. No, Ross probes are part of Orion a competitor of Sensorex
-- Boomer Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php Former US Army Bomb Technician (EOD) Member; IABTI, NATEODA, WEODF, ISEE & IPS If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up "Pszemol" wrote in message ... : "Boomer" wrote in message ... : : "Have you ever tried to figure out what in the water exaclty is : confusing the glass probe to produce strange milivolts like these : shown by the pH meter as pH" : : No Pse and I don't know of anyone that cares. I could ask Mike Ross : of Sensorex who designs pH and ORP probes : : If you dont forget, please do ask :-) : : p.s. is this the same guy Ross electrodes from Thermo Orion took name from ? |
George there is no sense in continuing this, you seem to refuse anything and everything,
which tells me you know you are incorrect but are trying to make an attempt to make yourself look good for the guys here. George before you post links you should read them, that way you won't look so bad. "It is nearly impossible to measure the pH of ultrapure water" "You can not measure pH of ultrapure water with a pH sensor. There is not enough conductivity for the sensor to work" "First, pH of ultra pure water is difficult to do. There are some special techniques that can be used. " THE SAME FOR RO/DI water -- Boomer Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php Former US Army Bomb Technician (EOD) Member; IABTI, NATEODA, WEODF, ISEE & IPS If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up "George" wrote in message news:KLGce.29590$c24.28180@attbi_s72... : : "Boomer" wrote in message : ... : George you just like to get beat on don't you :-) : : Lets take these apart now : : "If there is nothing but pure water, then the pH will be 7. Are you saying : that : everytime one's pH gets close to 7 on the pH scale, we should ask for a refund : from the manufacturer of our probes and pH kits?" : : THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS ABSOLUTE PURE WATER WITH A pH OF 7. The water that : come closest : is triple distilled water. Just because a sample of water has a pH 7 does not : mean it is : pure. My tap water is 7 and comes from a big lake. Where did you come up with : this pH 7 : anyway ? pH is a function of temp, conductivity and mostly its CO2 and Alk. It : goes like : this, in Dick & Jane terms CO2 x Alk = pH. They are sometimes referred to as : Buch-Park : Equations. I have posted on them before here and extensively, do a search. You : can have a : pH of 7.00 with a low CO2 and Alk or a pH of 7.00 with a high CO2 and Alk, or : for that : mater a pH of 6, 8 ,9, pick one. I have them programmed in to my calculator, : so when : people ask what is my CO2 level if my pH is x and the Alk is y, as you can not : measure CO2 : in seawater with any test kit, even if they say you can. There are also tables : on the net : on CO2 but only FW. B-P Eq. are given in many seawater chemistry books and I : have about 10 : of them. I have talked to the worlds leading expert on the subject, Dr. Frank : Milero, look : his name up on a search engine. I also have his office phone number. : : Many test kits are inaccurate. Why do think people come here and to forums and : say this; " : I just bought another pH test kit.........MAD.......now I have three and one : says pH 8.3, : one 8.0 and the other 7.8, which one do I believe. It is a very, very common : question : George, same for other kits. Where did I say that as the meter/kit approaches : pH 7 it is : more inaccurate, no where. Quite dreaming things up :-) : : : I realize that pH kits are innacurate. That is not the issue here. You said : that pH is not real. If that were the case, then why bother ever measuring it? : : "So you are still insisting that RO water cannot be acidic, that it cannot : contain CO2, and that it is all a myth of the pH meters? Hmmm. Some RO : manufacturers think that you are full of bull****:" : : Where did I say RO water cannot be acidic George, no where, you just made that : up, show me : where ....a quote please.Where did I say RO water can not have CO2. : : I posted the fact that my RO water had a pH reading of 4.5. Do you remember : your response, or do I have to juggle your memory? You said that "You CAN NOT : measure the pH of RO/D water, there is nothing in the water to measure the pH. : The readings are false, until it has some "salts" in it." And I've responded : here that that is simply bonk, since RO water certainly does have something in : it, especially if the source water contains CO2 in solution. Even RO : manufacturers report that the pH of RO water is often low (i.e., 4-5). They do : not say that the readings are false. They DO suggest that the reason for this : is that CO2 in the source water will pass through the membrane, and that because : there are no buffers in the water, the water will have a low pH. I've posted : links to manufacturers web sites where they state this fact. Then you posted : that RO water has a pH of 9 without ever explaining why this would be if all of : the "salts" have been removed. If I was getting pH readings of 4.5 on time, and : a pH of 9 another time, I would definitely believe that my pH measurements were : way out of line. This has not been the case. My readings have been very : consistent, regardless of whether I measure my salt water in my aquarium, the : water from my tap, or the RO water. I can measure them repeatedly and get : within 0.2 of the exact same readings every time. : : Quite reading into : things they will get you in trouble. It is well known that RO water can be : acidic and is : the reason behind names like "aggressive water", "reactive water". I never : said RO water : had a pH that was not acid now did I , please give a quote. If you are going : to make : claims then quote it. I said a kit or meter can give false readings arcos the : board. The : readings are not reliably. So you want to post Spectra Pure's website yeh. : Where on that : website does it say what the expected pH of RO water is OR WHERE on that : website do they : tell you about measuring the pH of RO water. I wonder why that is. : : So George, if you have a RO unit with a TFM, 65 PSI of water pressure, a : recovery rate of : 4:1 and the tap water has 10 ppm CO2. how much of that CO2 gets through the : membrane all : or some or what. One of the biggest problems for most with RO/DI water, is : that it sits in : a container and gets exposed to ambient CO2, which just races into the water : and lowers : the pH : : I can and have taken readings as the water is being made up and still get : 4.5-5.0. : : "Aeration or de-gassification of RO product water is recommended for removal : of : carbon dioxide" : : Well, I would hope so, especially that sitting : : I said this "RO water has virtually no CO2", that is why when it is exposed to : ambient air : the pH drops." That was in error somewhat, as RO water CO2 content, is a : function of the : tap water CO2 level and how much gets through the membrane. Also, "virtually : no CO2" does : not mean it can't lower the pH, as it does not take much with about 0 buffers. : : Ahem. This is what I said about 20 posts back. : : "All impurities will be rejected, but oxygen (O2) and CO2 that is a gas and : smaller than the water molecule, will slip through the reverse osmosis : membrane : and affect the pH of the product water." : : Not all of the CO2 and O2 slips by and...... O2 has NO EFFECT on pH ....PERIOD : : Did you see this on your own link "Bitter/astringent - excess CO2 in RO water : lowers pH", : which means not all RO has excess CO2 : : Why the hell would I care if other RO doesn't have excess CO2? And whether : there is "excess" or not is not an issue. If there are no buffers, but CO2 is : present, the pH will be low, which is the case with MY unit, and what I've been : saying all though this thread. : : : : From George Slusarczuk : : "Hello Michael, : : You are absolutely right! Even among chemists it is a very little known : fact, that the pH of distilled (and RO) water can not be measured. Let : me correct that: It CAN be measured, but the value is meaningless! (That : does NOT mean that distilled water has "no pH" -- just that we can not : measure it using methods available to a hobbyist -- and that includes : "research grade" electronic pH meters!) : : http://www.finishing.com/258/08.shtml : : Here is some theory- H2O molecules have infinite resistance. It is ions that : cause solutions to be conductive. Even perfectly pure water has some ions : because of the equillibrium between H2O, H+ (ions), and OH- (ions). The : concentration of the ions H+ and OH- in perfect water is 0.0000001 molar at 25º : C. The pH of this water is exactly 7. : : |
Ben, I don't ever have anyone in my kill file, don't believe in it :-) I don't even
remember why you would be there if I had one... lol The balanced thing Ben is just hogwash, to get you to buy something. I think George is just another troll. I see George likes to argue allot, and not just me, hence a troll. In one of his posts he even used the word he was a troll. Just for ****s and giggles more of Georges' nonsense "I think he meant malachite, which is a water-soluble form of copper carbonate." He is getting his heavy molecular weight organic-inorganic dyes, actually a triphenylmethane dye, use as a therapeutic agent. It is called Malachite or Malachite Green and he is getting it mixed up with Malachite, a cooper carbonate hydroxide mineral. Even didn't get that part right. Yet, he claims to have a master degree in geology ... lol It is called malachite only because it has a similar color to Malachite the mineral. It has 000000000 cooper in it. But George wants to play chemist and geologist ..lol Now if George had any smarts at all, he would e-mail a real manufacture of RO units and ask them the question, such as Dupont or Osmonics, who make RO's. The ones people buy are just companies that assemble parts, like Spectra-Pure, they don 't really make anything. He could also come to our chem forum and ask Mr. Water Quality......GUESS Ben what he makes ???????????? -- Boomer Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php Former US Army Bomb Technician (EOD) Member; IABTI, NATEODA, WEODF, ISEE & IPS If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up |
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