Fishkeeping - water vs. water

From: "David Zopf"
Subject: water vs. water
Date: Monday, October 03, 2005 5:34 PM

last comment pasted first:
My personal apologies to TekCat, it seems every time I try to get some
insight into "his" purchase experience, Pszemol and I get into this same
side-debate. I hope its done now.

I was just getting started :-) But if you pass... so be it.

Ug. You really like to take turns around the proverbial bush, don't you?
Fine... Here we go.

"Pszemol" wrote in message
...
"David Zopf" wrote in message
.. .
My question wasn't about finding fault with his seller, it was asking
whether TekCat felt that the extra $$ for a seller with knowledge and a
motivation for providing good service seemed like a better idea from
this side of his own experience. I'm curous where his "break point" is
on saving that 70 bucks. I can accept; "No, I'm still happy... I saved
$70" as a perfectly reasonable answer to that question, BTW.

Are you suggesting that similar experience WOULD NEVER happen
if he spent $70 more ?

I don't generally respond to Straw Man arguments, Pszemol...

Who is straw man here ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man_argument

"would never" is a strong phrase (especially when you shout like that).

The question "Does the extra $70 bucks look like _that_ much more money
now?"
directed towards a person with a problem is a very strong question, too...
This is not only a question.

No, actually, it is only a question.

It is a suggestion, that if he would spend
extra $70 he would have his problem solved faster - and your statement
(suggestion) was stated here without any knowledge on when the customer
asked for help...

Or, its an open-ended question which asks TekCat to reflect on his
purchase and experience, and make a judgement call. Note, it still remains
only a question (to everyone but you, it seems).

Maybe the reaction of the seller here was lighting
fast, but you have no idea because we do not have this data...

The problem is that you seem to not need any data for your statements.

I have made no statements, I have only asked questions. Of course, my
question's verbiage was colored by my expectations, but thats reasonable,
considering that there were new indications that TekCat's puchase experience
was starting to turn sour for him. That you draw irresponsible conclusions
from my questions is something I cannot help, and I suspect is more a mark
of your bias in defense of your recommendation, than it is an issue with the
questions, themselves...

One can reasonably expect that a seller with a better knowledge of his
product
can more quickly and accurately resolve technical issues that arise,
post-sale. What value that aspect of the sale has is a matter of personal
opinion and taste.

How fast the seller from eBay reacted to the issue? Can you tell me?

In part, that's what I'd like to know, from TekCat...

A faulty membrane could happen to any seller!
The fact he is working with custommer and shipping a replacement
unit is not a reason to consider if it was worth it to spend $70 more.

That's an judgement call Pszemol... There's part real cost, part value
judgement, part 'headache reduction', colored by what the buyer considers
a response timeframe worthy of his patronage.

So basically you shout your questions based on nothing else but gut
feeling.

Your reduction to absurdity fails. If you equate "gut feeling" = "part real
cost, part value judgement, part 'headache reduction', colored by what the
buyer considers a response timeframe worthy of his patronage.", then yes...
but I hardly shout ;-) I'll leave the shouting to you, Pszemol, and your
CAPS LOCK button. Would you be suprised if few others shared your
definition of "gut feeling"?

But you seem to be sure about it long time ago, before you actually
asked the question... You could not wait to ask it... Like you were so
eager to say "I told you so"...

My personal experience is that, when making purchases like this, the
experienced small businessman almost always pays out against the modest
extra cost they incur, even for people who like to squeeze every last
penny 'till it screams. I'm curious to know if that experience is proven
out by TekCat's case. In another sense, I seem to be only slightly less
eager than you are to post in defense of the cheapest option as still
being the best option...

You are not curious to know... You already know.
You knew it long before we had a chance to learn it.

Presuming to know my mind? But we've only just met. I'd have to quit my
job the day I was so stubborn as to refuse additional evidence (and I would
likely be posting ad hominem attacks, Straw Men arguments, failed reductions
to absurdity, and other such nonsense by now... They're evidence of a
crystalized mind, you know ;-)

And I am not defencing the seller - I do not know him/her.
I just argue with you, because you have no right to suggest
he would do better going to Marc based on known facts.

This is not a scientific aproach :-)))

TekCat's comment about "my better half is going to kill me when she
finds out that all that money is wasted" triggered my asking, since it
was obvious that the cheap option was turning out to be not so cheap.
That _is_, in fact, a scientific approach, since I did wait for there to
be incidents which resulted in monetary changes to the purchase
consideration (pump purchase, RO water purchases now pending).

As I noticed in my previous post -

and as you repeatedly omit from my reply...

the pump purchase was his sole
decision based on missing facts, assumptions. He took risk assuming
his pressure is too low and he proved himself wrong. It is not fair
adding pump purchase to the transaction total unless this was dirrect
seller recommendation.

Conceded in part. The point about sales _in general_ that I was making was
that 'direct seller recommendation' when dealing with a large, anonymous
seller can be non-existant, and if its available, it is almost always of a
lower quality when compared to an experienced seller, incurring additional
cost to the Cheap option.

If that $70 buys you better trouble-shooting, faster response, etc.
there is obviously a break point at which it becomes cheaper than the
Cheap option.

IF. This is very important: IF. But we do not know this.

....which is why we ask.

There is also the non-monetary aspect of 'buying away headaches', which
will make different people have different break points on such a
decision. I'm interested in where those breaks now lie for TekCat

In my opinion it is too early to start totaling losses here...

You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but then the opinion I was
seeking with my orignal qustion was TekCat's, wasn't it?

Let's wait for the end of the issue. I have a strange feeling

....call that strange feeling an 'assumption', since you like the word so
much.

that the case is already decided and lost from your point of view.

(and significantly less interested in our line of discussion. We've been
here before, and recently, too. I think everyone gets where you're
coming from. You like your things as cheap as you can get them, and you
don't see a point in spending more for service, or in support of smaller
businesses. Got it.)

You got it right! I am not running a charity - I do not see the point
in giving money away to a somebodys pocket just because he owns small
business and overcharging his custommers to cover his bigger expenses. I
am interested in getting a quality *product* for the lowest price
and I was never disapointed with this aproach.

A great summary of your position. Do you think everyone is like you, then?
Of course you don't. So why jump up and down and stamp your feet like this
when I ask for someone else's opinion? We're all different, you know.
I have a job, a family, a house, and hobbies I enjoy. If I'm purchasing a
non-commodity item of any complexity, and have a choice between an informed,
experienced seller who costs a bit more, and an anonymous big-box store
which can likely extend the time wasted on a project, I'll go with the
experienced seller, thanks. My time is worth more to me than that. What's
more, I'm not running a charity, either. In the majority of cases, I end up
coming out with a long-term savings on the project, as the additional costs
of fiddling with the cheap option add up.

It just happen I am
smart enough to solve potential problems on my own without paying big
bucks for "support"...

Truly, this is a factor in the total value of a sale. For those who don't
have the experience to solve potential problems without incurring additional
expense, it would seem like the money spent for support would be of greater
value, then. Hmm, I wonder who _that's_ relevent to?

I do not have enough details to judge how much time it took to order,
to ship, to assemble the unit - I do not know if this is too quick...

The reason you cannot say (and the reason I asked) is because the answer
in part relies upon a judgement call by the purchaser... If TekCat is
happy with his service, then all is well. If he's not happy, though, I'd
like to know about that, too.

I am sure he will share his thoughts when the time comes...
You have jumped to the conclusions too early.

We have no idea when he won the auction, when he paid

That we do. Despite being Ebay, the RO/DI units were all "Buy it Now"
items. Purchase date can be safely assumed to be the same as auction
'win' date (why bother to click Buy It Now, if you aren't going to pay
for it then?) He's had it for two weeks, though, and has reached the end
of his original 15 day trial period offered by his seller.

Again - you assume.

What's to assume? He received his purchase on 9/16. He has 15 days from
date of receipt to evaluate his purchase, per the provisions of the seller.
Thas not an assumption... thats algebra. Note that assumptions are not the
Anathema you make them out to be... They're perfectly valid, so long as
they are noted (which I do), grounded in a basis that gives them a fair
possibility of validity (which I have), and revised once proven to be false
(which I will, if needed).

If I buy from a small source with product knowledge, and I have troubles
which I cannot fix myself in short order, the first thing I do is I pick
up the phone and I call my seller, and get direction for a solution.
Reputable sellers will troubleshoot properly, and if a solution (such as
the ineffective pump) doesn't work, will accept the ineffective parts
back for a rebate. Therefore I think it _is_ reasonable, in general, to
accept blind troubleshooting purchases as a part of the cost of the final
solution when dealing with low-cost, unknowledgable sellers. I accept
your statement that TekCat took this step of his own accord (I have no
evidence one way or another... did he say that in some post here?), and
so this particular instance should be taken as a lesser, secondary
consideration when tallying the final cost.

You do not even know when, and IF he called the seller for help.
You could only ASSUME, based on the fact that YOU WOULD DO IT.
But you are not Tekcat. So hold on and lets wait for the situation
to develop before you start judging it as good or bad purchase.

I did say "in general"... this was an argument in support of adding the
cost of troubleshooting to the final tally, since you may have to take that
upon yourself when you buy from a source with limited knowledge of their
product (as noted above, varying degrees of troublesshooting acumen wil
alter the value of purchasing support. Are you convinced you're position on
this matter is the best one for everybody?). I also did allow for Tekcat's
particular situation, but those comments fall on deaf ears, when it comes to
you, it seems.

I note, too that its apparently OK for me to accept _your_ word on the
matter of TekCat's pump purchase being his own decision... but Sir, that is
an _assumption_ on my part !!! *gasp*... and one that you failed to point
out! A good assumption-hunter like you should leave no assumption un-noted.
I have to believe a talent such as yours saw it, and yet didn't make mention
of it for some very valid reason... Tell me, why is that one given special
dispensation?

Without knowing all these details, you are sure it was too long... and
you
know also, that it would be much faster if he payed $70 more :-))
You seem to know everything and you do not need any data to support
your theories or opinions. Congratulations! You must be clearvoyant!
:-))

*sigh* More Straw Men, with a little ad hominem at the end... Very cute,
but I think I've mentioned before that those habits never make anyone
look smart.

I am not looking for your opinion about me being smart or dumb here.

I'm sure you aren't, but everyone ends up learning a bit about each of us
from these exchanges, don't they? What have they learned about me? Nothing
I'm not already comfortable with them knowing...

So again - hold your judgments until you will have some facts...

I have until now, and I will continue to do so.

I asked _questions_ Pszemol, and await answers (from TekCat) before
drawing conclusions. I'll draw conclusions from the answers (again,
TekCat's answers, not yours, since your position on the subject is
crystal clear), and then post opinion if I feel its neccesary or valuable
to the group. I'm asking questions because this is starting to play out
in a somewhat familair fashion. Of course that experience is going to
color my questions in a certain fashion, but I remain open to any answers
TekCat is willing to furnish. Until then, kindly stop trying to analyze
based solely on questions asked...

Your QUESTIONS are just stating your opinions and conclusions.
IT does not matter you put a question mark at the end of the statement.
This question reads clearly as your opinion/suggestion, at least to me.

Ironically, that in and of itself is _your_ opinoin, and one I probably
won't sway, no matter what I post. *shrug* What can I say? You're wrong.
What's more, you lack sufficient experience with me upon which to base such
assumptions.

This little ending should be a source of embarrasment for you.

I would be embarrased if I judged the situation without knowing facts.

....and you're not embarrased by your Straw Man arguments, your
re-definitions, and your ad hominem comments? They're three of the four
Deadly Sins of debate, you know (Re-direction being the fourth).

I have presented a kind of protest against judging a seller based
on unknown facts, solely on assumptions which can turn out to be false.

...and end up tilting at windmills in the process. There are no giants here,
Pszemol.

Regards
DaveZ
Atom Weaver