Fishkeeping - Clown Loaches flashing

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default wrote:
In water temps between 72 and 78 degrees

Actually, their natural environment was water temperatures of 75 to 86
degrees Farenheit.

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Victor M. Martinez
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On 12 Jan 2005 12:27:49 GMT, Craig
-DONTEMAIL wrote:

That is a VERY close minded opinion,

Sorry you clipped everything. I stated many opinions, which one
bothers you?

if i dont like cheese does that mean no ones likes it? no.

Your experience says that "x" happens, but everyone elses says that "Y"
happens, its best to take a consensous on the entire thing and make your
own choice, wheter it be right or wrong.

Generalizations usually have exceptions. I get upset when a
generalization, in this case "should" is left as the best answer. My
experience is real, thus I see exceptions.

On that note, and my pollitical glad flared beyond belieif.

Clown loachs (as with yo yo loaches, a fish i know all too well) should
be kept in larges groups of 6ish, however if kept in groups less then a
comfortable number they become aggressive, solitary and retiring.

When you say they should be in large groups, what bad things do you
predict will happen if they are in smaller groups?

You have no right to say he masses are wrong, nor do you have the right
to say that you are the exception to the rules. Your take on the bible
is somewhat offensive and i feel that although you know you are wrong
you refuse to accept it.

It is not my take on the Bible that upsets you, but what was preached
from pulpits to defend keeping of slaves and to keep women as second
rate citizens. I find it strange that people now are using the Bible
to support their notion that homosexuality is evil. Adultry is in the
10 Commandments, but no one kills adulterers because they are evil.
Especially strange as death is the punishment for adultry in
Leviticus.

Speaking from my punk ethics: ****ing ******** man, ****ing ****, saying
****ing "blacks" like they are any differant from anyone else, you close
minded hypocrytical ****, not everything we do is right, ive made some
mistakes in my time, more then msot, but i deal with it, your wrong, the
masses state that. Deal with it.

I must have not stated something clear enough. I am saying the Bible
was used to justify slavery and preventing women to vote. I certainly
do not think this was proper. Our government was based on the thought
that all men (and women) are created equal. Odd, that slaves were
considered as property. It took a long time and a tragic war to
change this concept. It didn't help that Leviticus spells out how
slaves were to be treated. It supported the evil notion that slaves
were property, not people.

The masses are often wrong, but their strength in numbers make them
"right." No matter how many people voted that slavery was legal, it
did not make it right.

So, back to the Clown Loaches, if everyone in the universe said they
should be kept in large groups, I cannot ignore what I see in my own
fish tanks. One Clown moved to the hospital tank, started eating
where he was starving in a community tank. Two Clowns seem content to
live together in a 10 gallon community tank, three Clowns seem content
in a 29 gallon tank and, finally, 9 Clowns in a 75 gallon tank seem
content to shoal with other speciies and often are swimming alone or
with one other Clown. I can't ignore what I see.

Someone else predicts bad things, including aggessive behavior, if
Clowns are not kept in large groups. I see no aggressive behavior.
Should I change my opinions because others have different opinions?

dick

On 12 Jan 2005 10:15:39 -0800, "default"
wrote:

Dick wrote:

I have had 15 clown loaches for over a year in differing
combinations.
At one time the 9 in a 75 gallon tank were always together and for a
few days formed a daisy chain around an annubia to sleep.

natural behavior?

In the
early months they stayed together. It has been many months since
seeing them sleep together.

Now that they are familiar with their surroundings and know that they
really are all together anyway? After all, they are in an enclosed
tank. Can they sense this?

Perhaps, but another possible answer is their is safety in numbers.
In the wild fish are faced with predators so large numbers may feel
safer. Perhaps the 9 in the 75 gallon tank felt threats when they
first were in the tank that they no longer feel. Perhaps Clowns can
learn to feel safe with other species over months of living together.

On the other hand I have 3 Clowns in a 29
gallon tank and they are most often together at the front and center
of the tank.

Natural behavior?

One of them often wanders off by himself. In a 10
gallon tank I have two buds, but one is often off by himself, but
returns to where the other one is if startled.

How far does he wander? To the next room? Over to the neighbor's
house? And he returns to the group, for security, when startled.
Hmmmmmm.

I agree with the above poster. Clown loaches, if they are to be kept
in the most natural surroundings we can provide, SHOULD be kept as
follows:

In water
In water temps between 72 and 78 degrees
With ample food, prefferably live worms (naturally)
I feed them flake food

With live plants
My tanks have live plants, but I put a runt into a "hospital" tank
that had no plants and he got well.

With hiding places
I have 3 Clowns in a 29 gallon community tank with heavy vegetation,
it is this tank where the 3 are usually front and center. This same
tank has an ornament which these clowns used to stay in that they no
longer use.

In a relatively inactive portion of a building (to avoid startling)
Within a group, like they are naturally found in the wild, and as
evidence shows, their preference when first introduced into a tank
and/or when they become frightened or startled.

steve

Your last paragraph is not supported by any evidence, only several
opinions. As I said earlier, in the wild there are conditions not
common to a community tank, at least not my community tanks. Your
list of "SHOULDS" is clearly your opinion, but has little value in how
I keep my Clowns.

dick

perhaps it can be drawn down to personal differances between fish, that
yes runts do occur in shoals of fish, and that differant personalities
can cause conflicts even with these creatures. however.

It is not right to keep one clown loach alone without giving it the
option to socialise.

imagine hating a group of people, then being sperated from all others
because of this. this is a similar situation to what the fish are
suffering.

I think, due to the limited knowledge of these fish and their social
behaviour in the wild there is alot to be discovered about them.

I feel that fish should be kept in groups where possible, however
sometimes, with big, sensative, rare or aggressive fish this is hard nay
impossible to do. and clown loach compise several of these qualities.

Good luck with the fish keeping Peace out

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On 13 Jan 2005 13:46:50 GMT, Craig
-DONTEMAIL wrote:

perhaps it can be drawn down to personal differances between fish, that
yes runts do occur in shoals of fish, and that differant personalities
can cause conflicts even with these creatures. however.

It is not right to keep one clown loach alone without giving it the
option to socialise.

How do imagine being alone is so bad? In the case of the runt, he
was staying by himself and dying. I stay alone by choice.

imagine hating a group of people, then being sperated from all others
because of this. this is a similar situation to what the fish are
suffering.

Think of a ghetto gang. Do you believe they stay together because
they want to? While each kid may belong for different reasons, one
motive to stay together would be threats from other gangs. Take away
the threats and then see what happens. I think this is why we think
fish like to socialize. Fish in the wild are surrounded by threats.
I think the Clowns in my tanks are comfortable, thus less inclined to
stay together. Also I noted that the Clowns join in community swims
(shoals). Why must companions be of the same species. While I don't
look for human friends, I definitely enjoy my dogs and fish. I think
you focus on species too much. I also mentioned a platy that had a
tumour behind her eye that became a companion with a molly in the
hopital tank.

My Clowns are in groups if they want, lots of groups, they just don't
stay with other Clowns even given the choice.

How can you assume "suffering?" What symptoms would you look for? I
imagine fish suffering would be evident by illness, hiding, being
attacked by other fish, even attacking other fish. What symptoms do
you imagine?

I think, due to the limited knowledge of these fish and their social
behaviour in the wild there is alot to be discovered about them.

I just don't think that behaviour in the wild demonstrates all
possible behaviors. I think the threats and food limitations create
behaviour appropriate to the "wilds." Why assume behaviour doesn't
change when the environment changes?

I feel that fish should be kept in groups where possible, however
sometimes, with big, sensative, rare or aggressive fish this is hard nay
impossible to do. and clown loach compise several of these qualities.

I miss your last thought "and clown loach comprise several of these
qualities." If you are refering to "social" behavior, then I repeat,
we don't know what is natural behaviour without reference to the
environment in which they live. Yesterday I moved a male platy from a
community tank where it was being chased for long periods of time. I
moved him to a smaller tank where I had 3 other male platies. Two of
those platies started chasing him. I moved the 2 aggressive platies
to the tank I had just removed the first platy. The most aggressive
of the 2 immeadiately got chased by another male. I quit worrying
when I saw the new arrival give as well as he got. Back in the other
tank, the two males were swimming near each other, but no aggression.

Environment, context, what else is going on, these are as important as
personal traits in my opinion. When I was young I was social, today I
am comfortable alone. I am still a human, but am I the same human.
My environment has changed, but do I enjoy being alone because of that
change or because of my personal characteristics have changed?

I try to make my fish comfortable as I understand comfort. I have 14
Clowns because I accepted they liked to be with other Clowns.
However, my experience has changed my opinion. I now accept that
Clowns are not all the same and as a group their behaviour has changed
as their experience in the new tank became experience in the now
familiar and safe tank.

Statistics say that people die younger if they live alone. I would
hate to be forced to live in some group home because of statistics.
My doctor would have me change my diet to live longer, I tell him that
quality of life is more important and what I eat is special to me.

Good luck with the fish keeping Peace out

Thanks for the interesting discussion. Peace is a comfortable
conclusion.

dick