Hi Jim:

My pond is about 900 Gal and has a skimmer and pump at one end pumping
around into a Aquascape biofall planted across the tope with watercress.

Mostly I think there is little or no muck because it is efficiently
broken down biologically. This year, after two years I lifted all the
filter material out of the biofalls and drained all the water out. I
expected to find material had accumulated on the bottom but there was
surprisingly little.

Granted I have lots of plants around the margins and my nine fish are
not that big yet. I do add Lymozyme every week and a anaerobic
bacterial agent in the winter.
It also helps that little leaves get past the net and what do get
removed by the skimmer.

When I used the "muck mop" it was to remove a excess of soft feathery
algae that was growing across the bottom to a height of about 3" so I
could not really see the rocks anymore. I used the Muck mop to suck
most of the algae up. That seemed to establish a different equilibrium.

Cheers.


Phyllis and Jim Hurley wrote:
Greg,

Thanks for commenting. How big is your pond and how do you filter it? I
am interested that there is no muck on the bottom. Where does it go?
Was there muck when you did your muck mop?

Jim

Greg Cooper wrote:

I have for 4 years now. The sides are lined with river "cobbles"
roughly the size of a brick and the bottom is lined with a few larger
"boulders" for interest and all around with round stones ranging from
3" down to about 1". Nothing smaller. I think this is important as
it still permits movement of water through. On the bottom the layer is
about 2 -4" of stones.

I like the look, the fish seem to do well the water has never turned
green ever. The pond is netted over (Raccoon defense) but that also
keeps the leaves out. I have never had a problem with accumulations
under the stones and I have checked - I can excavate down to the liner
and it is *Clean* all except a nice slimy bacteria coating.

Occasionally I have had an excess of a kind of feathery algae on the
bottom but I build a "muck Mop" to suck it up. But I have only had
to do this twice in 4 years.

That is my experience.

Phyllis and Jim Hurley wrote:

Do we have any ponders who have a bunch of rocks on the bottom of
their ponds? Have any of them tried it 'bare bottomed'? They might
be able to comment on the relative difficulty of maintaining them.

We are really happy with the ease of mainiaing the bare bottom pond.

Jim

JGW wrote:

We're getting ready to build our new pond. The contractor wants to
line the walls and bottom with rocks, which he says will serve as a
great huge biofilter. I have read that it's impossible to keep the
pond clean with rocks on the bottom, and that they can trap hydrogen
sulfide gas.

What are your thoughts?

Thanks.

Joan
___________________

Greg,

Your comment plants a seed of insight for me. We have about 10 koi,
full grown and half a dozen goldfish. The main pond is 2900 gal and the
berm ponds another 1000. There is a significant amount of muck that
gets caught in the berm veggie filters. If they did not get it, the
pond would. It simply does not 'go away', tho it is easy to drain out
by opening the 2" bottom drains.

I wonder if successful 'rocking' depends on the filtering out of waste.

We have an open cement bottom in the main pond. The koi constantly stir
the muck and it goes down the drain and up into the veggie filters.
Only pine needles build up in the main pond...and they generally find
their way down to the drain area (an old septic tank with the pump 4"
off the bottom).

Jim

Greg Cooper wrote:
Hi Jim:

My pond is about 900 Gal and has a skimmer and pump at one end pumping
around into a Aquascape biofall planted across the tope with watercress.

Mostly I think there is little or no muck because it is efficiently
broken down biologically. This year, after two years I lifted all the
filter material out of the biofalls and drained all the water out. I
expected to find material had accumulated on the bottom but there was
surprisingly little.

Granted I have lots of plants around the margins and my nine fish are
not that big yet. I do add Lymozyme every week and a anaerobic
bacterial agent in the winter.
It also helps that little leaves get past the net and what do get
removed by the skimmer.

When I used the "muck mop" it was to remove a excess of soft feathery
algae that was growing across the bottom to a height of about 3" so I
could not really see the rocks anymore. I used the Muck mop to suck
most of the algae up. That seemed to establish a different equilibrium.

Cheers.


Phyllis and Jim Hurley wrote:

Greg,

Thanks for commenting. How big is your pond and how do you filter it?
I am interested that there is no muck on the bottom. Where does it
go? Was there muck when you did your muck mop?

Jim

Greg Cooper wrote:

I have for 4 years now. The sides are lined with river "cobbles"
roughly the size of a brick and the bottom is lined with a few larger
"boulders" for interest and all around with round stones ranging from
3" down to about 1". Nothing smaller. I think this is important as
it still permits movement of water through. On the bottom the layer
is about 2 -4" of stones.

I like the look, the fish seem to do well the water has never turned
green ever. The pond is netted over (Raccoon defense) but that also
keeps the leaves out. I have never had a problem with accumulations
under the stones and I have checked - I can excavate down to the
liner and it is *Clean* all except a nice slimy bacteria coating.

Occasionally I have had an excess of a kind of feathery algae on the
bottom but I build a "muck Mop" to suck it up. But I have only had
to do this twice in 4 years.

That is my experience.

Phyllis and Jim Hurley wrote:

Do we have any ponders who have a bunch of rocks on the bottom of
their ponds? Have any of them tried it 'bare bottomed'? They might
be able to comment on the relative difficulty of maintaining them.

We are really happy with the ease of mainiaing the bare bottom pond.

Jim

JGW wrote:

We're getting ready to build our new pond. The contractor wants to
line the walls and bottom with rocks, which he says will serve as a
great huge biofilter. I have read that it's impossible to keep the
pond clean with rocks on the bottom, and that they can trap hydrogen
sulfide gas.

What are your thoughts?

Thanks.

Joan
___________________

While its usually agreed on that rocks in the bottom of a loi or GF
pond is not a good idea, its strange that rocks in a sal****er setup
is good, and bio balls are not desireable in the filter, but its the
trend to remove bio balls and filter type mats and just put in more
live rock rubble in their place........I probably has to do with the
type of rocks normally used in SW setups as compared to what is used
in a fish pond........I wonder how long its going to be until LFS //
Pond Suppliers etc start selling "Live Rock" for koi ponds.

Ponders do basically the same thing but in a different environment
with lava rock and trickle towers that live rock in a SW setup does by
being totally submerged.......

==============================================
Put some color in your cheeks...garden naked!
"The original frugal ponder"
~~~~ }((((o ~~~~~~ }{{{{o ~~~~~~~ }(((((o

Hi Jim,

I had forgotten that your piping goes directly from the sump into the
veggie filters. IMHO, a vortex settlement, or even a static
settlement tank, with bottom a bottom drain, between the sump and the
veggie filters would help this problem immensely. Further, for me
anyway, I am designing in mechanical filtration (brushes, matala,
etc.), and then bio-conversion (fluidized kaldness), between the
vortex and the veggie filter/stream. JMO, FWIW, YMMV....

David

On Sun, 07 Aug 2005 07:22:57 -0500, Phyllis and Jim Hurley
wrote:

Greg,

Your comment plants a seed of insight for me. We have about 10 koi,
full grown and half a dozen goldfish. The main pond is 2900 gal and the
berm ponds another 1000. There is a significant amount of muck that
gets caught in the berm veggie filters. If they did not get it, the
pond would. It simply does not 'go away', tho it is easy to drain out
by opening the 2" bottom drains.

I wonder if successful 'rocking' depends on the filtering out of waste.

We have an open cement bottom in the main pond. The koi constantly stir
the muck and it goes down the drain and up into the veggie filters.
Only pine needles build up in the main pond...and they generally find
their way down to the drain area (an old septic tank with the pump 4"
off the bottom).

Jim

While its usually agreed on that rocks in the bottom of a loi or GF
pond is not a good idea, its strange that rocks in a sal****er setup
is good, and bio balls are not desireable in the filter, but its the
trend to remove bio balls and filter type mats and just put in more
live rock rubble in their place........I probably has to do with the
type of rocks normally used in SW setups as compared to what is used
in a fish pond........I wonder how long its going to be until LFS //
Pond Suppliers etc start selling "Live Rock" for koi ponds.

In sal****er, particularly reef tanks, nitrates are a problem. Nitrates
form particularly well with bio ball set ups, hence these are starting
to be not used in sal****er tanks.

As for the substrate, one thing about ponds is that they tend to have
lots of external stuff (example, leaves) getting into them. This creates
a maintenance issue.

One can have the same issue in an aquarium... but the bottom is smaller.


C//

David,

You are right about the benefit of a settling tank/area and vortex!

Our lines are not quite direct into the veggie filters. The water goes
thru several steps, which include some settling and vortex motion:

1. The pump is down 7' in the bottom of the deep well (old septic
tank). It is in a 5 gal bucket with 1/2" holes all round. This guards
the pump as it is not supposed to have solids more than 1/2". The pump
bucket is on bricks, so it is 4" off the bottom of the septic tank.
That tank gets most of the pine needles etc. I scoop it out each
spring. In effect, it is our solid filter. Larger solids settle in it.
It is not, however, vortexed.

2. The lines go into 55 gal upflow barrels with strapping tape in mesh
bags above the vortexed (think angled entrance) entry lines. The few
solids getting to the barrels settle in the barrels and virtually no
solids of any size go on to the veggie filters.

3. The water exits the barrels into one of two veggie filter systems:

-The left system :

-passes through a 4' x 4' x 18" pond (again on an angle to promote some
circular, vortex motion). The pond is loaded with veggies.
-It then passes into a 4' x 8' x 18" veggie pond (angled entrance, again).
-At the end of the long pond, it falls down our U-shaped falls or our
adjustable-flow bypass pipe (less water over the falls means less
evaporation),
-Then through the small pond at the base of the falls, and
finally it reenters the main pond via an 8' stream (far from the deep well)

The right system:

-has two barrels that feed into opposite ends of
-a 4' x 8' x 18" pond (angled entrances for vortex circulation).
-After the pond, the water drops over our step falls and
-reenters the pond via an 8' stream (also far from the deep well).

The bottom of each pond is concave to gather muck, drains at the low points.

You can see the berm layout on our website.

The water takes 20 min to go through the right side and 45 on the left.
The result is really good sedimentation. The second pond on the left
has lots less sediment than the first pond.

In effect, the deep well is my mechanical sedimentation area for
everything larger than 1/2" and for lots of other stuff. The barrels
and ponds get the fine muck. They have solids only when their plants
die or pine needles and cones fall in. When I drain them, I sometimes
have to pull out the cones, etc.

Long response to a short point.

Be sure to post pics of your layout when you get it up and running.

Jim



David wrote:
Hi Jim,

I had forgotten that your piping goes directly from the sump into the
veggie filters. IMHO, a vortex settlement, or even a static
settlement tank, with bottom a bottom drain, between the sump and the
veggie filters would help this problem immensely. Further, for me
anyway, I am designing in mechanical filtration (brushes, matala,
etc.), and then bio-conversion (fluidized kaldness), between the
vortex and the veggie filter/stream. JMO, FWIW, YMMV....

David

On Sun, 07 Aug 2005 07:22:57 -0500, Phyllis and Jim Hurley
wrote:


Greg,

Your comment plants a seed of insight for me. We have about 10 koi,
full grown and half a dozen goldfish. The main pond is 2900 gal and the
berm ponds another 1000. There is a significant amount of muck that
gets caught in the berm veggie filters. If they did not get it, the
pond would. It simply does not 'go away', tho it is easy to drain out
by opening the 2" bottom drains.

I wonder if successful 'rocking' depends on the filtering out of waste.

We have an open cement bottom in the main pond. The koi constantly stir
the muck and it goes down the drain and up into the veggie filters.
Only pine needles build up in the main pond...and they generally find
their way down to the drain area (an old septic tank with the pump 4"
off the bottom).

Jim

I was looking at the extended discussion of rocks-or-no-rocks. It is
amazing for its length and its civility on an issue with such diversity.

Good show, pond friends.

Jim

JGW wrote:
We're getting ready to build our new pond. The contractor wants to
line the walls and bottom with rocks, which he says will serve as a
great huge biofilter. I have read that it's impossible to keep the
pond clean with rocks on the bottom, and that they can trap hydrogen
sulfide gas.

What are your thoughts?

Thanks.

Joan
___________________

~ jan JJsPond.us wrote:
"Phyllis and Jim Hurley" wrote
Do we have any ponders who have a bunch of rocks on the bottom of their
ponds? Have any of them tried it 'bare bottomed'? They might be able to
comment on the relative difficulty of maintaining them.


Never have, but sure know a lot that have and removed them after 1 - 2
years. ~ jan

I did not put in rocks because of what I read here. Every time I
cleaned it I thought "Boy, was *that* the right choice!"

A

I had to make this decision last week as the guys were finishing up my
pond rehab. They asked me if I wanted the bottom of the pond rocked
and of course, I said No. The size rock was 1 - 2 inches. This was the
size rock that was in my veggie filter - that was a devil to clean out
and remove the rocks.
I do think it looks better when the bottom is rocked using Large rocks
as opposed to using gravel. I'll revisit this subject when the weather
turns a lot cooler.

Here are some pictures of the rehabbed pond: (Not in final yet) :)
http://community.webshots.com/user/nedra118

Nedra in Missouri
zone 6

Jim,

Thanks for the expanded description. I understand/remember better
now.

Hmmm...

Seems to me that you've pretty well got the bases covered, and that
each component is pretty much doing its job. It sounds like the muck
in the VFs is mostly resulting from debris falling and being blown in,
and from the plants that naturally die off. Given that, I'm not sure
that you can do much more than you have already done. You certainly
aren't going to hang a debris net over the VFs.

With the bottom drains in each of the VF pools, for perodic flushing,
it appears to me that you have about reduced maintenance to the
minimum already. (And it really doesn't sound so bad anyway.)

But you have now set me to thinking, regarding my own design. For a
VF, I have been thinking in terms of a well-planted meandering stream
that ultimately flows into the ponds. This however will be subject to
the same concerns that we have just discussed. But it is rather
difficult to install bottom drains in a meandering stream. So when I
flush the VF, unlike with your design, everything then goes straight
into the ponds! Clearly, I need to put some thought into this issue
now...

David

On Sun, 07 Aug 2005 15:48:15 -0500, Phyllis and Jim Hurley
wrote:

David,

You are right about the benefit of a settling tank/area and vortex!

Our lines are not quite direct into the veggie filters. The water goes
thru several steps, which include some settling and vortex motion:

1. The pump is down 7' in the bottom of the deep well (old septic
tank). It is in a 5 gal bucket with 1/2" holes all round. This guards
the pump as it is not supposed to have solids more than 1/2". The pump
bucket is on bricks, so it is 4" off the bottom of the septic tank.
That tank gets most of the pine needles etc. I scoop it out each
spring. In effect, it is our solid filter. Larger solids settle in it.
It is not, however, vortexed.

2. The lines go into 55 gal upflow barrels with strapping tape in mesh
bags above the vortexed (think angled entrance) entry lines. The few
solids getting to the barrels settle in the barrels and virtually no
solids of any size go on to the veggie filters.

3. The water exits the barrels into one of two veggie filter systems:

-The left system :

-passes through a 4' x 4' x 18" pond (again on an angle to promote some
circular, vortex motion). The pond is loaded with veggies.
-It then passes into a 4' x 8' x 18" veggie pond (angled entrance, again).
-At the end of the long pond, it falls down our U-shaped falls or our
adjustable-flow bypass pipe (less water over the falls means less
evaporation),
-Then through the small pond at the base of the falls, and
finally it reenters the main pond via an 8' stream (far from the deep well)

The right system:

-has two barrels that feed into opposite ends of
-a 4' x 8' x 18" pond (angled entrances for vortex circulation).
-After the pond, the water drops over our step falls and
-reenters the pond via an 8' stream (also far from the deep well).

The bottom of each pond is concave to gather muck, drains at the low points.

You can see the berm layout on our website.

The water takes 20 min to go through the right side and 45 on the left.
The result is really good sedimentation. The second pond on the left
has lots less sediment than the first pond.

In effect, the deep well is my mechanical sedimentation area for
everything larger than 1/2" and for lots of other stuff. The barrels
and ponds get the fine muck. They have solids only when their plants
die or pine needles and cones fall in. When I drain them, I sometimes
have to pull out the cones, etc.

Long response to a short point.

Be sure to post pics of your layout when you get it up and running.

Jim



David wrote:
Hi Jim,

I had forgotten that your piping goes directly from the sump into the
veggie filters. IMHO, a vortex settlement, or even a static
settlement tank, with bottom a bottom drain, between the sump and the
veggie filters would help this problem immensely. Further, for me
anyway, I am designing in mechanical filtration (brushes, matala,
etc.), and then bio-conversion (fluidized kaldness), between the
vortex and the veggie filter/stream. JMO, FWIW, YMMV....

David

On Sun, 07 Aug 2005 07:22:57 -0500, Phyllis and Jim Hurley
wrote:


Greg,

Your comment plants a seed of insight for me. We have about 10 koi,
full grown and half a dozen goldfish. The main pond is 2900 gal and the
berm ponds another 1000. There is a significant amount of muck that
gets caught in the berm veggie filters. If they did not get it, the
pond would. It simply does not 'go away', tho it is easy to drain out
by opening the 2" bottom drains.

I wonder if successful 'rocking' depends on the filtering out of waste.

We have an open cement bottom in the main pond. The koi constantly stir
the muck and it goes down the drain and up into the veggie filters.
Only pine needles build up in the main pond...and they generally find
their way down to the drain area (an old septic tank with the pump 4"
off the bottom).

Jim