What Are You Feeding & Where are You Buying Your Koi Food This Season?
 

On Fri, 07 Apr 2006 00:26:18 +0100, Gill Passman wrote:

OK, I hate to jump into this as well but....now I will certainly agree
that there are fish foods as well as other pet foods on the market that
do not contain as much fibre or filler - hmmm, aren't we all encouraged
to eat fibre that we cannot digest as part of a healthy diet???

But we're omnivores, cats & dogs are carnivores, last I heard. ;o)
Therefore pooping more than twice/day isn't necessary. On non-digestible
fillers, a dog can poop up to 4 or more times/day. Personally I wish the
fillers in my diet would go elsewhere if you know what I mean. ;)

education is concerned...I don't think animals are any different...

Hmmm, I think there are a few PhD's that would beg to differ, but I'm not
going to argue their points. Way too over my head. ;)

Now, I don't seem to remember anyone suggesting that they are buying
cheap food full of fillers just alternative commercial options...

Using dog food or cat chow was suggested at one point.

the fish food for commercial use is cheaper because of the quantity it is
purchased in...does it need to say Koi on the label??? Gill

No guarantees, one has to read the label. "Koi" food, even high priced
stuff, can have non-digestible filler in it. Corn being the biggest
problem, in that the fish LOVE it, it is their equivalent to candy. That is
why koivet says not to use a fish food with corn in the 1st three
ingredients. There's no evil in giving them treats, after all, that's the
fun part of having a fish pond, feeding the little piggies, and thinking we
see them smile. Are we goofy or what?

Now there is the worry of corn toxic fungus. I wonder if freezing would
kill such fungus? ~ jan


~ jan/WA
Zone 7a

What Are You Feeding & Where are You Buying Your Koi Food This Season?
 

My little learning curve started when I started eating Atkins type foods and felt
immensely better. Then I got asthma and tested out allergic to wheat and corn.
pffft. Then I inherited my mothers dog HoneyChild who was allergic to everything
except the fish and potato dog food. Then Harry P our springer was flaking, itching
and getting hot spots on purina. HoneyChild developed congestive heart disease from
lousy crudded up teeth and 1500 bucks later we took home a half dead dog and put her
on "heart" and "kidney" diet which she was allergic to. She was harking nearly all
the time, she lost almost all her fur and what was left was like straw. and they gave
her 6 mo- 1 year (this was May of last year)
I said this is total bull**** and decided to go to a species appropriate diet for all
the dogs. Honey gets raw whole fish, the rest get raw meaty bone whatever is
cheapest and on sale at a local discount grocery. Harry recovered, Honey recovered
and has a soft as silk thick coat again, no harking and if she drops dead tomorrow
she will have had quality of life. No more foul breath or gummed up and loose teeth
in my dogs. http://weloveteaching.com/mutts/mutts.htm

While signed up with the raw feeding list I did some quick calculations on the price
of regular dog food and raw meat. It is hard to know how much of regular dog food is
corn or wheat or other cheap fillers, but plain old corn is really cheap and dog food
really isnt. So I give Harry 1lb of meat, usually between 29-69 cents a pound. When
stuff is on sale we buy 20-30 lbs at a time and toss it in the freezer. We also ask
people on local list if they are emptying out their freeze burned meat to drop it
off, likewise with venison, likewise people who fish.

This also got me to thinking about ferrets and how our ferrets never lived much
beyond 4 years which broke my heart, and I finally found a site where the guy started
feeding his ferrets species appropriate foods, rabbits, and the ferrets started
living well beyond 10 years.

I started feeding my koi high quality food before the light bulb above went off, but
since then I have learned that koi digest proteins and fats, and not carbohydrates.
that they have pretty short intestines and that too much food at once just passes
thru them cause they dont have a stomach. the bulkier and drier the food the less
chance it will get digested too. soon after I started feeding them better food they
quit whacking my water lilly. I only clean the mulm out of my veggie filter once a
year in fall when I put the pond to bed. 4 feet down on the bottom of my pond I can
still see the white tag that fell off the lily pot.

so I guess I would rather pay for krill and fish meal and feed small amounts rather
than pay a lot for large amounts of corn.
Ingrid

"G Pearce" wrote:
- my cat had to go in for a operation and the vet gave us some "high
end" food for her recovery - 3 days later we called him as she was passing
almost no waste compared to before and we were worried something was wrong -
he said the food we were feeding her before was loaded with filler and less
nutrients that she could use - it was not medicated, just more expensive
food because of less filler, ergo less waste to pass - I went to better food
for the pond and now clean my upflow filter once a season rather than 3 to 4
times / season with same amount of food (my choice - I spoil my pets when
they beg :~) )


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Zone 5 next to Lake Michigan

What Are You Feeding & Where are You Buying Your Koi Food This Season?
 

Koi digest proteins and fats. these are contained in the little critters they have
evolved to feed on, the little worms, larvae, daphnia, etc. these little critters
live on the algae and water plants, and the worms are usually in the mud which is why
they root in plant pots and on the bottom. The algae they eat meets their "green"
needs, but algae is structurally completely different from land plants with all that
cellulose.
the problem with all that excess "poop" is that it is very rich in nutrients that
bacteria break down into wastes that foul the water. the poop of a healthy fish is
not "seen" hanging from their butt or sitting in strings on the bottom. It is
supposed to disintegrate when it hits the water (mostly seen in fish tanks).
the commercial fish food is cheap because it is "just" good enough to fatten up the
fish for one year and then they are "meat". there is no concern for long term
health. actually, anyone can buy fish food by buying krill in bulk. the breeders in
China specifically raise all kinds of live foods like blood worms, black worms to
feed the pond raised fish. they power feed them species appropriate foods to get
them large very fast. Ingrid


Gill Passman wrote:
a natural
balanced diet contains protein, roughage, vitamins, minerals etc in fact
fibre is seen as a very posititive thing for our well being and the
health issues without it are quite significant - it might suit us if our
pets poop a little less but I very much doubt that it is beneficial to
their health....our medics would be in a panic if we didn't produce
sufficient waste products diagnosing all sorts of stuff...over here, in
the UK, the more regular and sufficient quantity the better (without
wanting to get gross) for our health as far as our medics and health
education is concerned...I don't think animals are any different...

Now, I don't seem to remember anyone suggesting that they are buying
cheap food full of fillers just alternative commercial options...the
fish food for commercial use is cheaper because of the quantity it is
purchased in...does it need to say Koi on the label??? or is that just
another marketing ploy....if the fish are breeding and healthy and have
good colour do we need to take issue just because of a labelling issue????

Gill



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Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
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I do not run nor receive any money from the ads at the old Puregold site.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Zone 5 next to Lake Michigan

What Are You Feeding & Where are You Buying Your Koi Food This Season?
 

no. the toxin contamination occurs in the corn prior to processing. and rancid oils
are also toxic. Ingrid

~ janj wrote:
Now there is the worry of corn toxic fungus. I wonder if freezing would
kill such fungus? ~ jan


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www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I receive no compensation for running the Puregold list or Puregold website.
I do not run nor receive any money from the ads at the old Puregold site.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Zone 5 next to Lake Michigan

What Are You Feeding & Where are You Buying Your Koi Food This Season?
 

no. the toxin contamination occurs in the corn prior to processing. and rancid oils
are also toxic. Ingrid

I assume the no, is directed at freezing won't kill, dang! 1st statement is
a worry, in that this toxic corn could end up in any feed. Bummer. ~ jan


~ jan/WA
Zone 7a

What Are You Feeding & Where are You Buying Your Koi Food This Season?
 

On Fri, 07 Apr 2006 00:26:18 +0100, Gill Passman
wrote:

G Pearce wrote:
I hate to jump into this thread as it is a pretty passionate one here - I
have to agree with Jan as I went thru the same experience as Jan a few years
ago - my cat had to go in for a operation and the vet gave us some "high
end" food for her recovery - 3 days later we called him as she was passing
almost no waste compared to before and we were worried something was wrong -
he said the food we were feeding her before was loaded with filler and less
nutrients that she could use - it was not medicated, just more expensive
food because of less filler, ergo less waste to pass - I went to better food
for the pond and now clean my upflow filter once a season rather than 3 to 4
times / season with same amount of food (my choice - I spoil my pets when
they beg :~) )

Gale :~)


OK, I hate to jump into this as well but....now I will certainly agree
that there are fish foods as well as other pet foods on the market that
do not contain as much fibre or filler - hmmm, aren't we all encouraged
to eat fibre that we cannot digest as part of a healthy diet??? and
doesn't this apply to the health of our fish as well....a natural
balanced diet contains protein, roughage, vitamins, minerals etc in fact
fibre is seen as a very posititive thing for our well being and the
health issues without it are quite significant - it might suit us if our
pets poop a little less but I very much doubt that it is beneficial to
their health....our medics would be in a panic if we didn't produce
sufficient waste products diagnosing all sorts of stuff...over here, in
the UK, the more regular and sufficient quantity the better (without
wanting to get gross) for our health as far as our medics and health
education is concerned...I don't think animals are any different...

Now, I don't seem to remember anyone suggesting that they are buying
cheap food full of fillers just alternative commercial options...the
fish food for commercial use is cheaper because of the quantity it is
purchased in...does it need to say Koi on the label??? or is that just
another marketing ploy....if the fish are breeding and healthy and have
good colour do we need to take issue just because of a labelling issue????

Gill
As we should be doing when we shop for food for ourselves, we need to
be reading ingredients labels. Then comparing equivalent brands by
price.

-- Mister Gardener

What Are You Feeding & Where are You Buying Your Koi Food This Season?
 

~ janj wrote:

On the side of the cheap-food feeders, there's the argument that nobody
here has a koi in the 50 year age range :-)

My opinion? I'm cheap, I spend as little as I can when I shop for myself,
and the fish aren't any better then me.

If one really wants or needs to be cheap, lower the fish load and they can
live off what falls, crawls, flies, jumps or grows in the pond. ;o) ~ jan

That's essentially my policy. I only feed the fish for _my_ enjoyment, and
then not much. They do get more food from the pond than from me (and yet
I've never had a problem with koi eating the plants, which surprises me).
--
derek

What Are You Feeding & Where are You Buying Your Koi Food This Season?
 

correct, freezing wont do anything.

corn for human consumption must undergo a lot more rigorous examination. altho we
know about this last batch of food, I wonder how much "low dose" of the toxin is
found in dog food. it seems a LOT of dogs get cancer.
does cat food contain corn? do cats get much cancer?
Ingrid

~ janj wrote:

no. the toxin contamination occurs in the corn prior to processing. and rancid oils
are also toxic. Ingrid

I assume the no, is directed at freezing won't kill, dang! 1st statement is
a worry, in that this toxic corn could end up in any feed. Bummer. ~ jan


~ jan/WA
Zone 7a



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List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List at
http://weloveteaching.com/puregold/
sign up: http://groups.google.com/groups/dir?...s=Group+lookup
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I receive no compensation for running the Puregold list or Puregold website.
I do not run nor receive any money from the ads at the old Puregold site.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Zone 5 next to Lake Michigan

What Are You Feeding & Where are You Buying Your Koi Food This Season?
 

Cancer is what my cat (mentioned above in thread) had and eventually died
from, we used to feed our cats Purina brand food. Purina seems to have a lot
of corn in all of their different pet foods. We are now feeding them Iams
Multi Cat ("corn grits" are listed as 3rd ingredient) Getting back to the
fish, when I started ponding 13 yrs ago, I was using Purina Trout Chow -1st
ingredient, I believe was corn, but I think it was all the fish byproducts
and oils that were the problem - my 1st 2 koi went from 3" to 18" in 3 yrs
and died with no visible problems. The 3rd koi from that group died the
following year of nothing visible other than it went totally blind When I
started to ask around as to why, I was directed to a koi farm to ask . The
first question was "what are you feeding them?" With the Purina Trout Chow
answer, the koi breeder asked me how long do I think I would live if I ate
at McDonalds 3 meals / day, 7 days a week. He said they use some trout chow
sparingly to put some size on their koi until their first cull, then high
quality food to bring out the colours and for health. He also said the
"Chow" was formulated for trout, catfish and salmon farms to get the fish
large enough for market as quickly as possible, typically 13 months. The
effect it has on their internal organs is of no interest to them
jme Gale :~)
found in dog food. it seems a LOT of dogs get cancer.
does cat food contain corn? do cats get much cancer?
Ingrid

~ janj wrote:

no. the toxin contamination occurs in the corn prior to processing. and
rancid oils
are also toxic. Ingrid

I assume the no, is directed at freezing won't kill, dang! 1st statement
is
a worry, in that this toxic corn could end up in any feed. Bummer. ~ jan


~ jan/WA
Zone 7a



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List at
http://weloveteaching.com/puregold/
sign up:
http://groups.google.com/groups/dir?...s=Group+lookup
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I receive no compensation for running the Puregold list or Puregold
website.
I do not run nor receive any money from the ads at the old Puregold site.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Zone 5 next to Lake Michigan

What Are You Feeding & Where are You Buying Your Koi Food This Season?
 

"Altum" wrote in message
. com...

BTW, you should see the pictures of livers from discus fed on beef heart
in his book. The livers are huge, not functioning properly, and filled
with fat globules. Animal fats are very bad for fish and both dog and cat
foods contain a lot of animal fat. Anyone feeding cat or dog food had a
look at their fishes livers? Can you prove you're not doing long-term
damage to your fish?

How can we prove any of the feeds aren't doing long-term damage to our fish?
How many of us can afford to feed them fresh shrimp, scallops and other sea
foods from the local stores? Have you any idea what seafood costs? Paying
a premium price for koi food is no guarantee it doesn't contain something
harmful or was stored correctly BEFORE we purchased it. Also, how can we
know what's really in it?

And no, looking healthy and spawning for
even a decade is NOT a good indicator of liver health in an animal that
should have a 100-year lifespan.

Nor is paying $5 to $10 a lb for koi food. In just the past 8 years it went
from GF (or example) being mainly vegetarians to GF being mainly
carnivorous. First I read that they can't digest meaty foods and now the
story is they can't digest starches or carbohydrates. Next year they'll be
omnivorous or maybe grainivorous.... or so someone will claim. ;-) I've
learned to take it all with a grain of salt as they say.

Just look at the decades long but
still shortened lifespan of alcoholic humans with cirrhosis.

There's no comparison. Drunks seldom eat anything like a normal diet or
even know or care what they eat or if they eat. As long as they have their
*fix* on hand. No one is giving their fish alcohol. :-)

Sorry. I'll go back to patching my pond liner now.

Everyone has an opinion worth hearing.
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o