OT geothermal, was Future scenario for the home aquarium.
 

"NetMax" wrote in message
...
Oh, I would if I could, but I can't. My house is built into the side of a
hill, so the only flat ground I have is weeping tiles on one side (septic
tank), and the bottom of my creek on the other. I've thought of building
a weir into the creek, to make a pond, but during snowmelt, the creek gets
very active, and it would flush all the fish into the river :-(.

What a bummer! I'd love to put another pond in but there are difficulties
like solid rock close under the surface, the septic tank drain field, ....
my husband. ;-)

Fortunately I have a few friends with ponds, so I can live vicariously
through them. One in particular has a 20,000g pond in their small
backyard, and they annually construct a tent the size of a small house to
cover it for the winter. The 'tent' has always been a different design
(polyethylene sheet and grey PVC piping this year), testing against the
elements (snow load, wind and freezing rain), so they haven't settled on a
permanent design yet. They write articles for fish magazines, so they get
stuff to test and often keep (good gig).

What a deal!!!!

To them, I'm not a fish-addict, I'm quite normal

Yes, being fish-addicts "is normal" for people like us......... :-)))
--

Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
Aquariums:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastada...ium-Page4.html
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o

Heating a bowl, was Future scenario for the home aquarium.
 

"David Zopf" wrote in message
. ..

"Koi-lo" wrote in message
...

"Richard Sexton" wrote in message
...
You can buy heated pads for mouse cages and similar from pet
shops...
=============================
Yes, thanks... but I always have 6 to 8 betta bowls in a row and want
something like an unobtrusive strip to run along the windowsill.
There's no
way I can afford that many little heaters to go under each one.
Also, the
wires would be ugly and in the way.

What you really need is a solar powered micro ground source
geothermal
unit for your winddow. A little teeny tiny one.
=======================
Nah, someone needs to invent a heat TAPE for those with bowls or tanks
in a row. The reptile folks would probably buy it as well as the fish
people. I could be sold in several lengths to suit different needs.

Hrrm. Don't want to totally rain on your idea, but I don't think it
will be realized. Heat tapes (like those used to prevent metal pipes
from freezing) are notoriously difficult to (affordably) control
accurately enough to prevent large temperature swings. They're either
on and pumping out the BTU's, or their off and cooling rapidly. I
don't think they'll ever make a good basis as an affordable means of
maintaining small volume water temperature in a limited range.

In the chemical industry, they have big, wide heat tapes which can be
put onto drums;
http://www.bascousa.com/store/item.a...42&ITEM_ID=128

which are rarely good for anything. They heat indiscriminately, cause
a very hot point to develop where they are in contact with the drum,
and lack any means of circulating the material while heating
(convection currents are notoriously slow to transfer heat in a fluid
medium). Your betta bowls will behave similarly; without water
flow/agitation, you'll have a uninhabitable hot bottom (note: also
where any settled decomp matter will be residing), a tropical middle,
and a vastly cooler upper strata. You thought temperature swings are
bad when they occur too quickly..? Three guesses as to what happens
when you have eight or more degrees of temperature change _within the 2
gallon bowl itself_... :-)

DaveZ
Atom Weaver


I don't think there would be any particular challenges to creating a low
wattage heating element for a bowl. It's just wire with some resistance.
It could even be moulded right into the base of the bowl with a
connector, and designed to run off of a DC transformer. The challenge is
the thermostat, it's design and location. You want to measure the water
temperature at an approximate mid-point without applied heat skewing the
results.

Having the thermostat moulded into the thick glass of one side of a bowl
would be an option (the glass would be an average of the ambient and the
water layers.

Alternately you could have a connector for a thermistor (thermocouple &
infra-red too expensive, mechanical contacts too primitive) on a cable,
and the thermistor would drop inside the tank. In that case, it becomes
a bowl 'hotplate'.

Ok, so it isn't a big challenge, just need someone to put an application
patent on it ($5-10K depending on the number of countries), trademark it
(optional), pay the R&D ($40-50K), and sell it to Hagen. Personally, I
don't see the business case, as most bowl buyers are not flush with
money, or they would get something larger with a heater.

Frank has used heating tape on his tanks. Perhaps the simplest approach
would be to connect the heating tape in a manner that scales the total
BTUs down to 'fishbowl' level. I think power is inverse squared with
resistance, so two 8W tapes connected in series would be 2W (?) don't
quote me, it's just a possible direction to pursue.
--
www.NetMax.tk

Thanks You! Future scenario for the home aquarium.
 

"NetMax" wrote in message
...
For that I don't like it either, though I suspect most fish would prefer
it.

And I think some, like my goldfish, actually enjoy it. When my hands are in
the tank they're right there looking for any bit of edible stuff I may turn
up messing with the plants or gravel.

Generally speaking, messing in a tank too often is a bad thing.

Well there is a limit,.... several times a day can give you fingernail
fungus. :-(

Shadows and sudden movements can also be disconcerting. Most fish tend to
like nice quiet corners for a community setting.

Hummmm......... when I first put my bubble-eyes and lionheads in the tanks
near the hall they'd dash for cover when someone passed by. Now they dash
for the feeding corner when they see anyone coming or going down the hall
(passing their tanks). All that aside, I know there are fish that are shy
and nervous and wouldn't like such a location. Fish like those I would keep
off the beaten path through the house.

It's a good thing
they don't have a vote ;~), and besides, who knows what the future will
bring?

If my fish could vote I'm sure they'd vote to be near that small table with
their fish-food basket on it. All those packages of pellets, those yummy
algae wafers, those crisps, tasty freeze dried bloodworms, tubafex and
shrimp......
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
Aquariums: http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastada...ium-Page4.html
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o

Thanks You! Future scenario for the home aquarium.
 

"Elaine T" wrote in message
t...
NetMax wrote:

snip
I think the bottom line with many of us, is that we like to tinker.
We walk by the tank, and make a note to do something, or just do it
(move a rock, clean some algae, feed the fish, replant something, pull
some dead leaves out, watch some new behaviour, check how the fry are
doing etc etc). The suggested scenario took away your ability to
tinker.

Let me give an analogy. What you suggest is rather like putting a few
dogs into a big, grassy field with some cameras. (Assume their needs
for shelter and running room are met.) You would feed and water them
daily and clean up as necessary, but that would be the extent of the
interaction. On your living room wall would be a projection of the
dogs so you can see them play, sleep and hang out. The dogs would be
perfectly fine and your chores would be lighter, but the setup is not
the same as having a pet dog at your feet.

I think most of us think of our fish as pets. You've mentioned feeding
your fish with automatic feeders so you see more of the natural
behavior. In contrast, I enjoy watching my angel fish doing his little
"wiggle dance" at the front of the tank when I come into the room. All
he's after is a handout, but the interaction is still fun. Think of
how popular Oscars are because of their pet-like qualities!

I absolutely totally agree mostly :~). There are interactive set-ups and
there are non-interactive set-ups. Fish fall into the category of 'pets'
for a variety of reasons, and some fall conveniently into 'hobby'.
Another subset is 'decoration', to have layers of colors and activity. I
wouldn't put 'pet' fish into a remote tank, as this would make no sense,
they are interactive. Some fish as 'hobby' I would, and many new
hobbyists would see the 'decoration' aspect first.

For example, I once stocked a planted 130g tank with about 9 types of
tetras (about 15 each iirc). I could watch this tank for hours (some
days I did, as it was 10 feet from my counter at the pet shop). Once
they realized there were no predators in the tank, they each assumed
either an inter-species 'gameplay' or a focused intent on doing something
else (what - I could only guess). They broke into groups 6-12, barrelled
through other less-organised groups, then broke into smaller formations,
cheat-shoaled with other species (teenagers!), established alpha status
and minor pecking order (top 2 or 3) and danced around each other
(inter-species and not). The point is that it was really fun to watch.
Then a customer would walk over, and once they were about 5-6 feet from
the tank, all the animation would come to a stop, and the fish would go
into people-mode; hide, freeze, beg for food or slowly drift into the
background, and the customer would coo "what a pretty tank", oblivious to
the fact that they were only seeing a fraction of the potential
entertainment value. This is what many hobbyists see, their fish's
people-mode (which with some fish is frankly, predictable, dull &
repetitive, and Elaine knows that I'm taking a devil's advocate position
to this argument, so please don't anyone else flame me). Some of the
best enjoyment comes from undetected observation, particularly 'hobby'
fish, imho.

This is why I can't *totally* agree with you. There are too many reasons
to be in the hobby, like the fellow who could tell me the sci.name of
every plant in his tanks, but when asked what kind of fish he had, he
replied "some blue ones and some red ones" ;~). A remote tank might fill
a market niche if only to address some of the existing constraints
associated with larger tanks.

.... gotta go now, I need to look up the word 'tripe' ;~)
--
www.NetMax.tk

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html '__
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

Future scenario for the home aquarium.
 

NetMax wrote:
"Elaine T" wrote in message
t...

fish lover wrote:

snip

I would pay for fish tank that is about 2 fee wide but the whole side
of my wall. I'm talking about 10 to 15 feet long, 9 to 10 feet tall
depending on the size of your wall. Somehow we have to get the oyxgen
in the tank (like a CO 2 injector) so it can support more fish with
the relitively small surface area. Imaging that you come home and the
sight of a whole wall with swiming Discus! I would pay really good
money for that! Water change needs to be automated for sure :-)

Out of curiosity, how would you maintain the bottom of a 9-10 foot deep
tank? I think public aquaria usually have scuba divers scrape algae
and clean the big tanks, but they're usually more than 2 feet wide.


Oh oh oh, I know the answer :o) (push over fishlover ;~), at least I have
an idea for it. There is an indent in the bottom of the
tub/mold/tank/container. Ordinarily, nothing is in there, but it could
be large enough to have a potted plant or some type of structure with
caves. When you have to do serious maintenance, you remove anything
which is in this indent (or false bottom), and drop the water level
(taking all the fish with it into this section).

The drawbacks are that live plants on the upper levels would be exposed
to air (so they would have to be robust or don't have live plants in the
upper tiers), and you need a sizable holding tank to hold the displaced
water until it is returned. In fish rooms, I've seen these holding tanks
attached to the ceiling. For other installations, (large built-in
aquariums), the holding tank could be located in another room (preferably
directly above or below the main tank).

Alternately, use the holding tank, but no indent in the main tank and
never take the water down too low.

sorry fishlover, my enthusiasm curbs poorly, your turn.

I rather think that you have spent a lot of time thinking on this...and
great on you g. What is this all about other than throwing out ideas
and getting feedback? Well I guess some of it is about helping people
out...but it is the idea thing that makes these ng great....making
people think over and above the norm is a good thing whatever the topic IMO

Big fan embarassed grin

Gill

OT geothermal, was Future scenario for the home aquarium.
 

"David Zopf" wrote in message
. ..

"NetMax" wrote in message
...
At the risk of getting too far OT from aquaria, I have wondered what
volume of subterrainian water would be required to cool and heat a
home to an average comfortable temperature. Given my latitude
(Canada), I don't think it's practical, but a bit further south might
have possibilities. Build a road to the edge of a short steep rockface
(coastline, riverfront etc), build a foundation to hold some water
(200,000g?), grade with enough earth for insulating the exposed side,
add house on top. You would need some energy to run the heat pumps,
but rockface/coastlines are sometimes suitable for a combination of
wind power and solar (divided between electricity generation for
batteries and water heating to supplement the thermal energy of the
under-house sump.

An interesting angle is that the water would either need to be
chemically treated to be inert, or you could intentionally incorporate
a complete nitrogen cycle (fishies :o).
Meh. Just coat the wetted parts with teflon, or make them out of
titanium...

I don't know which would be more practical, but I know which I would
investigate first ;~), though I suspect the temperature range would
not be compatibility to fish.

lol, this should lay to rest any niggley doubts about my being
completely wonkers, - but I still have lucid moments and I'm generally
helpful & harmless ;~).
--

Wonkers? The only thing you're missing is financial backing;

http://www.makai.com/renewable_energy/swac.htm

It seems someone was Wonkers about six years ahead of you...

Seawater AC project has earned a $1.6million grant for a feasability
study at the University of Hawaii. Note; this is a _lot_ easier model,
as the water doesn't need to be pumped nearly so far (nor do you need
to drill deep into bedrock, etc).

Regards
DaveZ
Atom Weaver


Nice link, thanks! Inventing is just a job, and it's not particularly
difficult for inventors to invent (but try getting them to stop ;~). I
have brakes on my in-line skates. Would I patent them? Not a chance,
nor a dozen other ideas sitting on my scale of the ridiculous to the
sublime. But it's fun thinking them up, especially the aquaria-related
ones, as those I can actually do for myself.
cheers
--
www.NetMax.tk

Thanks You! Future scenario for the home aquarium.
 

NetMax wrote:
"Elaine T" wrote in message
t...

NetMax wrote:

snip

I think the bottom line with many of us, is that we like to tinker.
We walk by the tank, and make a note to do something, or just do it
(move a rock, clean some algae, feed the fish, replant something, pull
some dead leaves out, watch some new behaviour, check how the fry are
doing etc etc). The suggested scenario took away your ability to
tinker.

Let me give an analogy. What you suggest is rather like putting a few
dogs into a big, grassy field with some cameras. (Assume their needs
for shelter and running room are met.) You would feed and water them
daily and clean up as necessary, but that would be the extent of the
interaction. On your living room wall would be a projection of the
dogs so you can see them play, sleep and hang out. The dogs would be
perfectly fine and your chores would be lighter, but the setup is not
the same as having a pet dog at your feet.

I think most of us think of our fish as pets. You've mentioned feeding
your fish with automatic feeders so you see more of the natural
behavior. In contrast, I enjoy watching my angel fish doing his little
"wiggle dance" at the front of the tank when I come into the room. All
he's after is a handout, but the interaction is still fun. Think of
how popular Oscars are because of their pet-like qualities!


I absolutely totally agree mostly :~). There are interactive set-ups and
there are non-interactive set-ups. Fish fall into the category of 'pets'
for a variety of reasons, and some fall conveniently into 'hobby'.
Another subset is 'decoration', to have layers of colors and activity. I
wouldn't put 'pet' fish into a remote tank, as this would make no sense,
they are interactive. Some fish as 'hobby' I would, and many new
hobbyists would see the 'decoration' aspect first.

For example, I once stocked a planted 130g tank with about 9 types of
tetras (about 15 each iirc). I could watch this tank for hours (some
days I did, as it was 10 feet from my counter at the pet shop). Once
they realized there were no predators in the tank, they each assumed
either an inter-species 'gameplay' or a focused intent on doing something
else (what - I could only guess). They broke into groups 6-12, barrelled
through other less-organised groups, then broke into smaller formations,
cheat-shoaled with other species (teenagers!), established alpha status
and minor pecking order (top 2 or 3) and danced around each other
(inter-species and not). The point is that it was really fun to watch.
Then a customer would walk over, and once they were about 5-6 feet from
the tank, all the animation would come to a stop, and the fish would go
into people-mode; hide, freeze, beg for food or slowly drift into the
background, and the customer would coo "what a pretty tank", oblivious to
the fact that they were only seeing a fraction of the potential
entertainment value. This is what many hobbyists see, their fish's
people-mode (which with some fish is frankly, predictable, dull &
repetitive, and Elaine knows that I'm taking a devil's advocate position
to this argument, so please don't anyone else flame me). Some of the
best enjoyment comes from undetected observation, particularly 'hobby'
fish, imho.

This is why I can't *totally* agree with you. There are too many reasons
to be in the hobby, like the fellow who could tell me the sci.name of
every plant in his tanks, but when asked what kind of fish he had, he
replied "some blue ones and some red ones" ;~). A remote tank might fill
a market niche if only to address some of the existing constraints
associated with larger tanks.

... gotta go now, I need to look up the word 'tripe' ;~)

To save you the effort it is cows stomach...in the past fed to dogs and
people of restricted means...it is a particularly nasy product, white
with lots of nodules, but high in nutritional value - I remember people
feeding it to their pets (fortunately not their kids although it did
happen and I'm sure that my parents will remember eating it from times
of rationing in the 2WW) - nowadays when hopefully the majority have
better nutrition so it means "rubbish" or "waste"...

My joy in this hobby as you quite rightly mention, does happen with some
people, is the pleasure in watching my fish and their interactions with
me and with themselves....a pretty tank, ornamental feature as a goal is
also very, very common...I see them as my pets, my tanks are very
transient as I try to achieve the perfect environment...never achievable
hence the constant fiddling and changes...but I would hazard a guess
that most people who bother enough to subscribe to newsgroups/forums do
the same...for all of us doing this there are thousands of people out
there who either know what to do or just think of tanks of fish as
something that looks great in their living room (and don't get me wrong
if the fish are healthy and well cared for there is nothing wrong with
this)...but if they die the attitude is "buy more" - not a difficult
concept in our consumer society....soapbox warning

Until fish are seen as more than decorations we will never get the
quality of service and livestock that we deserve. Futhermore, our pets,
the fish, will suffer from neglect and harm not only from their ultimate
owners but the retailers and wholesalers

Your idea is great and fantastic if it provides a virtual reality tank
for those that just want the concept and decorative value of
fish...maybe this is the market (and I do know you chastised me for
considering you were selling - a slight net problem - I didn't mean
commercially I meant the concept/idea). And if it moves us away from
people who see fish as mere designer objects with no care for their well
being, then I'm sorry, so much the better.

Now, maybe the "would be fish owners who can't be arsed to do the work"
would really be better off with their virtual tanks....can see a market
for this just as you describe...but someone still has to be in there
doing the work....if I'm doing the work I want to see the real thing not
something fed to me on a screen...

Climbing off the box and I know that you know it isn't personal and just
a "Gill rant" g

Gill

Thanks You! Future scenario for the home aquarium.
 

"Gill Passman" wrote in message
.. .
NetMax wrote:
"Elaine T" wrote in message
t...
snip

My joy in this hobby as you quite rightly mention, does happen with
some people, is the pleasure in watching my fish and their interactions
with me and with themselves....a pretty tank, ornamental feature as a
goal is also very, very common...I see them as my pets, my tanks are
very transient as I try to achieve the perfect environment...never
achievable hence the constant fiddling and changes...but I would hazard
a guess that most people who bother enough to subscribe to
newsgroups/forums do the same...for all of us doing this there are
thousands of people out there who either know what to do or just think
of tanks of fish as something that looks great in their living room
(and don't get me wrong if the fish are healthy and well cared for
there is nothing wrong with this)...but if they die the attitude is
"buy more" - not a difficult concept in our consumer society....soapbox
warning

Until fish are seen as more than decorations we will never get the
quality of service and livestock that we deserve. Futhermore, our pets,
the fish, will suffer from neglect and harm not only from their
ultimate owners but the retailers and wholesalers

Elevating the respect level for our aquatic pets is definitely an
important goal for most parts of the world. Europe seems to have a
better grip on this.

Your idea is great and fantastic if it provides a virtual reality tank
for those that just want the concept and decorative value of
fish...maybe this is the market (and I do know you chastised me for
considering you were selling - a slight net problem - I didn't mean
commercially I meant the concept/idea). And if it moves us away from
people who see fish as mere designer objects with no care for their
well being, then I'm sorry, so much the better.

Sorry on the 'net' problem. I'm glad to see it rolled off. This 'future
scenario' was really just something that occured to me. Not really
thought out, just pondering on how our living room entertainment might
all converge in the future. It was floated here for 'brain-storming',
and I wouldn't take insult if everyone found flaws in it. As a designer,
I'm accustomed to the majority of my ideas being bad, impractical or
otherwise unworkable. From an engineering perspective, this 'scenario'
offered some unconventional solutions for some conventional problems.

Now, maybe the "would be fish owners who can't be arsed to do the work"
would really be better off with their virtual tanks....can see a market
for this just as you describe...but someone still has to be in there
doing the work....if I'm doing the work I want to see the real thing
not something fed to me on a screen...

The already exists non-commercial web cam broadcasts of the inside of
aquariums. While this angle was also in my head peripherally, I didn't
include it, as we are primarily 'real' hobbyists here, not part-time
users who would have an aquarium projected on their wall when they have
company over. We are the people who actually have the tanks, so if I'm
not considering this from a commercial perspective (which I'm not), then
the concept's merits should be judged by real hobbyists. However, you do
bring up an interesting angle. If it was a commercial broadcast, then
places which cannot have a real aquarium (ie: airplane flights), or
places where aquarium care is a challenge (retirement homes, restaurents,
hospitals etc) might get some benefit. Another market is the people you
mentioned who have no interest in learning the proper care, and for them,
the broadcasts might save a few fish!
--
www.NetMax.tk

Climbing off the box and I know that you know it isn't personal and
just a "Gill rant" g

Gill

Future scenario for the home aquarium.
 

David Zopf wrote,
Hrrm. Don't want to totally rain on your idea, but I don't think it will
be realized. Heat tapes (like those used to prevent metal pipes from
freezing) are notoriously difficult to (affordably) control accurately
enough to prevent large temperature swings. They're either on and pumping
out the BTU's, or their off and cooling rapidly. I don't think they'll ever
make a good basis as an affordable means of maintaining small volume water
temperature in a limited range.

I heated roll after roll of different size tanks and quart betta jars
in a few pet shops and in my basement with heat tape (like those used
to prevent metal pipes from freezing).

(convection currents are
notoriously slow to transfer heat in a fluid medium).

I disagree - it's just the other way around. It's hard to heat an area
of water within a tank, without heating the whole tank of water!

Your betta bowls will
behave similarly; without water flow/agitation, you'll have a uninhabitable
hot bottom (note: also where any settled decomp matter will be residing), a
tropical middle, and a vastly cooler upper strata.

Hmmm - jars can be set in a tray of water. Heat tape on the bottom of
the tray heats the water within the tray, which heats the betta jars.

You thought temperature
swings are bad when they occur too quickly..? Three guesses as to what
happens when you have eight or more degrees of temperature change _within
the 2 gallon bowl itself_... :-)

Plug the heat tape into a thermostat - I used an aquarium heater for
the thermostat. Just removed the aquarium heaters heating element and
plug/thermostat from the heat tape and wired the heat tape in place of
the heaters heating element. This 'thermostat' is then placed into
eather the end tank of a roll of tanks, or end jar of a roll of betta
jars, of which the heat tape runs under. The temperature within all the
tanks or jars, will be the same as what ever temp. is set on the
aquarium/thermostat in the tank/jar at the start of the roll - cheap
and easy! ............... Frank

Future scenario for the home aquarium.
 

"Gill Passman" wrote in message
.. .
NetMax wrote:
"Elaine T" wrote in message
t...

fish lover wrote:

snip

I would pay for fish tank that is about 2 fee wide but the whole side
of my wall. I'm talking about 10 to 15 feet long, 9 to 10 feet tall
depending on the size of your wall. Somehow we have to get the oyxgen
in the tank (like a CO 2 injector) so it can support more fish with
the relitively small surface area. Imaging that you come home and the
sight of a whole wall with swiming Discus! I would pay really good
money for that! Water change needs to be automated for sure :-)

Out of curiosity, how would you maintain the bottom of a 9-10 foot
deep tank? I think public aquaria usually have scuba divers scrape
algae and clean the big tanks, but they're usually more than 2 feet
wide.


Oh oh oh, I know the answer :o) (push over fishlover ;~), at least I
have an idea for it. There is an indent in the bottom of the
tub/mold/tank/container. Ordinarily, nothing is in there, but it
could be large enough to have a potted plant or some type of structure
with caves. When you have to do serious maintenance, you remove
anything which is in this indent (or false bottom), and drop the water
level (taking all the fish with it into this section).

The drawbacks are that live plants on the upper levels would be
exposed to air (so they would have to be robust or don't have live
plants in the upper tiers), and you need a sizable holding tank to
hold the displaced water until it is returned. In fish rooms, I've
seen these holding tanks attached to the ceiling. For other
installations, (large built-in aquariums), the holding tank could be
located in another room (preferably directly above or below the main
tank).

Alternately, use the holding tank, but no indent in the main tank and
never take the water down too low.

sorry fishlover, my enthusiasm curbs poorly, your turn.

I rather think that you have spent a lot of time thinking on this...and
great on you g. What is this all about other than throwing out ideas
and getting feedback? Well I guess some of it is about helping people
out...but it is the idea thing that makes these ng great....making
people think over and above the norm is a good thing whatever the topic
IMO

Big fan embarassed grin

Gill

Thanks for that Gill. I only thought about it long enough to recognize
some interesting possibilities, but I still wanted to throw it out there
for comment, and it did seem to generate some discussion ;~). I'm far
too nerdy, wordy and annoying to have a thin skin about negative
comments, so no worries :o).
--
www.NetMax.tk