Rose anenome splitting
 

"Boomer" wrote in message ...
I see you are still digging holes for yourself.. I figured you would post about exactly
what you just did. You are talking or want to keep talking in circles. You think maybe you
have won on at least on point , as you have been blown away on all others. It is your last
chance ditch effort to make yourself look good and is the only reason behind this last
post. You are thinkin maybe I have not lost my credibility YET on this issue.

Your attempt of interpretation of what I am doing is amazing...
I have really no idea what are you getting these impressions.
Are you projecting what you would do in similar situation or what?
I cannot recognise you, Boomer, recently... you have changed :-(

You already know my definition of the word feeding in clowns . I guess you are still
confused

Feeding is the process by which organisms, typically animals, obtain food. In behavior
the anemone is feeding off the food the fish brought it but the fish is not feeding the
anemone, a behavioral active intentional act in animal behavior field....WHICH IS
WHAT YOU CLAIM and all evidence disagrees with you.

You have referred me to the dictionary to check my definition of "feeding"...
I have checked mine and found I understand this word as in dictionary.

What dictionary are you taking your definition from ? Can you quote the source ?
How "intentions" can be detected in animals lacking their brain, for example: medusa ?
What are "intentions" of meduza, which has no brain, and - does not think ?
Is it still feeding, if there are no intentions? :-))

Every one that is reading this thread knows what I mean
and what you meant, to include youself.

Well, I would not be so sure about this...
Have you conducted any survey ? :)

You made the claim on what your clown is doing, not me and now you
are trying to defend it to make it you look better.

I do not care to "look better". I do not have phd in animal behaviorism,
I do not have any title to defend in front of my students :-))
I can afford to be wrong in my observations - I am just a hobbyist
observing a single pair of maroon clowns in a single tank...
I have shared my observations and my interpretations of these.
I said many times, that I can agree with scientists about the lack
of intentions in the clowns behaviour, even if this is clear only
from looking at my pair. My pair is probably not representative, so
I can undestood it does not involve intentions - ok.

What I have problem with is associations of "feeding" with intentions.
My dicionary supports my understanding of word "feeding".
You have some problems quoting any dictionary supporting your version...
What is wrong in this picture ? :-)

You are trying to find ways to dig yourself out of the hole.
" um, maybe if I keep on the 'feeding" definition thing I'll
gain some lost ground" Give it Up

The problem is I am not in any hole...
I do not need to dig myself - I am perfectly fine with being wrong.
I just ask you to show me in some reputable source your definition
of word "feeding" :-) Do I ask for too much ? :-)

Go head and dig some more post holes, I really do not care

Yes you do...

Rose anenome splitting
 

But then one has to ask the question " Is this instinct
for feeding the anemone even though it's not there?" The
question has to be asked, which is the normal, and which
is the resulting outcome in the abnormal?

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets



AverageSchmuck wrote on 4/5/2006 1:30 AM:
The above that Boomer stated I observe everytime I feed my fish
because I do not currently have an anemone my maroon clown has found a
dug out spot in the rock formation which he defends and is constantly
keeping clean. I Feed my lionfish shrimp parts and scallops mostly abd
wekk the clown has shown a liking to these also so he will steal them
off the stick if the lionfish is slow to get their. Guess where he
takes it right to his hole every single time.

Rose anenome splitting
 

CBS are a a lot easier to keep with a lion than the
regular skunk cleaners, as the cbs are a lot more
agressive, and more able to defend themselves.

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets



Boomer wrote on 4/5/2006 3:04 PM:
Meaning you can keep all these with lions, if you know what you are doing. I kept a 12 "
Volitans for 12 years in a 55 gal , with smaller fish and always with a pair of mated
RBCS.

Rose anenome splitting
 

And yes I have known about this idea that "anemone fish
are not intentionally feeding their anemone" for many
years :-)

But I still think that there is more design and purpose
than many people see.

And I agree that the definition of "feeding" does not have
to include "intention".

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets



Wayne Sallee wrote on 4/6/2006 11:00 AM:
But then one has to ask the question " Is this instinct for feeding the
anemone even though it's not there?" The question has to be asked, which
is the normal, and which is the resulting outcome in the abnormal?

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets



AverageSchmuck wrote on 4/5/2006 1:30 AM:
The above that Boomer stated I observe everytime I feed my fish
because I do not currently have an anemone my maroon clown has found a
dug out spot in the rock formation which he defends and is constantly
keeping clean. I Feed my lionfish shrimp parts and scallops mostly abd
wekk the clown has shown a liking to these also so he will steal them
off the stick if the lionfish is slow to get their. Guess where he
takes it right to his hole every single time.

Rose anenome splitting
 

"Wayne Sallee" wrote in message ...
And yes I have known about this idea that "anemone fish
are not intentionally feeding their anemone" for many
years :-)

But I still think that there is more design and purpose
than many people see.

And I agree that the definition of "feeding" does not have
to include "intention".

Exactly.
Instinct does not have to mean "premeditated intentions".

Rose anenome splitting
 

I am unsure what both of you are arguing about but my observation.

I watch my clown take food and place it in his hole that he carved in
the sand near the live rock. He sleeps their, rests their, guards it,
and yes without the anenome takes food their. Same exact behavior
that he would do if their was an anenome present. What I am seeing is
same thing mammals do when they indentify a resource and want it for
themselves. Dogs are very good at showing this! Its called "Resource
Guarding" and it is not always food. It can be anything they see as a
possible resource for enjoyment, food, anything. Now this resource
gaurding happens to be an advantage for the anenome even though it
does not appear the clown is comprehending fully what he is doing. The
clown simply is seeing hey bingo resource quick hide it before I have
to waste energy fighting for it and then their is the anenome (The
clowns "Safe Spot") benefitting from this. A symbiotic relationship
does not always mean they intend on helping each nor does it mean each
depends on other for survival. Each organism their can very
effectively survive on its own without other. So in conclusion your
both correct and both wrong! After all to feed doesnt always mean
intention but does matter what definition you wish to define the act
of feeding by because after look up on it seems it is implied to have
intention on some and others completely unneccesary.

However I do belive in my opinion that calling the behavior of the
clown taking food to his safe spot feeding is a tad mislabeled but
still correct only if safe spot is a living organism that will eat the
food or item he/she is taking their because his intention appears to
be "Resource Guarding". I see same behavior in my tank but clown is
taking food and items to a rock. Now the rock has no use for the food
so you cant say he is feeding his safe spot. So proper terminolgy for
the act your both talking about would be better labeled "Resource
Guarding" with a side effect of feeding in certain circumstances.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=feed

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=symbiotic

Rose anenome splitting
 

My intention is not to argue fight insult... none of that you guys are
simply talking about something I really get into. Something I have
done since I was a small child watch wildlife and track their behavior
... What I do and I think I do well in a job that involves that but
money you need money to be formally trained.

Rose anenome splitting
 

I don't want to rule out that they might know that they
are feeding the anemone. How do we know that they don't
know that the anemone is eating the food?

My personal fealing is that it is a little bit of both.
Just because it is one, does not mean that it is not some
of the other.

For example:

I had a customer that had a pair of clown fish with a
variety of fish, and two skunk cleaner shrimp. They were
all getting along just fine for a long time. Then he
decided to add a carpet anemone. The clownfish loved the
new addition, and started killing and draging the cleaner
shrimps, and other fish into the anemone. Nothing had
changed but the addition of the anemone. This raises the
question of what were they thinking when they went bazerk,
killing and feeding the anemene.

My figuring is that they were going to breed, and fish
that are breeding, are more agressive to other creatures,
but, did they kill them to eat them later??? I don't think
so. When damsel fish kill other fish, they don't drag them
back to the spot where they sleep. So there's got to be a
reason why a clownfish will kill a fish, and drag it back
to the place where they sleep.

And yes, I know that clown fish are categorized in with
the damsel fish.

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets



AverageSchmuck wrote on 4/6/2006 1:01 PM:
My intention is not to argue fight insult... none of that you guys are
simply talking about something I really get into. Something I have
done since I was a small child watch wildlife and track their behavior
... What I do and I think I do well in a job that involves that but
money you need money to be formally trained.

Rose anenome splitting
 

well I am not up completely on the mating behavior but I do know with
most species try to horde and fatten up for lack of better word when
they are going through mating. So the slaughter of the shrimps may not
have anything to do with feeding the anenome but hording food for the
act of mating and raising their young now that they feel comfortable
with the situation enough to mate. Now I cant say its completely
impossible that they are not feeding I just see it as very unlikely
that they are intending on feeding the anenome. It could be possible
that the anenome caused them to get more aggressive due to the
shrimps wanting to clean it. The clowns are territorial so they may
have killed it due to that and said hey why waste it save it for
later. Its possible I supose .. just shooting stuff out their in a
brain storm fashion.

Maybe Don Ghedis could supply more information on their mating rituals
on that concern cause he seems to be very up on that and to be honest
I think he mates them.

Rose anenome splitting
 

My last post on this thread

.. I have not changed I think you have. This thread ( my remarks) is on animal behavior and
its relationship to feeding behavior and its interpretation. You would need to seek an
ethnology book and read its section on feeding behavior, a science. I sent you to a
dictionary to see where you would go with it, I. was disappointed. A std English
dictionary is not the place to be on this subject. That was my point to see where you
would go. I'm surprised you did not look up the term anthropomorphic and have a go at
that as well. You are still dwelling on the dictionary term. I was trying here to give a
lesson, it did not work. I once wrote a undergraduate paper ; "The Food and Habits and
Feeding Behavior of the American River Otter ( Lutra canadensis )". No it was never in
print and I do not even have a copy of it any more, it was 25 years ago. But have brought
it upon forums, when picking on Ronny ;-)


"Your attempt of interpretation of what I am doing is amazing..."

Then why its it I pretty much know what your post are going to be

Peoples behavior and actions are often easy to project in certain situations...sorry. And
I'll bet some here projected mine as well :-)

"I do not need to dig myself - I am perfectly fine with being wrong"

If you are fine at being wrong then why do you say the fish is intentionally feeding its
anemone, when all studies and experts on clowns differ with you. I raised then for a
couple of decades and friend of mine raises and breeds clowns, especially rare ones and
collects host anemones

I have probably been a pain in the ass on this thread ...sorry and should have approached
it differently. Rather than "feeding" the fuel :-)
--
Boomer

If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up

Former US Army Bomb Technician (EOD)
Member; IABTI, NATEODA, WEODF, ISEE & IPS

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http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php

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http://www.coralrealm.com



"Pszemol" wrote in message ...
: "Boomer" wrote in message ...
: I see you are still digging holes for yourself.. I figured you would post about
exactly
: what you just did. You are talking or want to keep talking in circles. You think maybe
you
: have won on at least on point , as you have been blown away on all others. It is your
last
: chance ditch effort to make yourself look good and is the only reason behind this last
: post. You are thinkin maybe I have not lost my credibility YET on this issue.
:
: Your attempt of interpretation of what I am doing is amazing...
: I have really no idea what are you getting these impressions.
: Are you projecting what you would do in similar situation or what?
: I cannot recognise you, Boomer, recently... you have changed :-(
:
: You already know my definition of the word feeding in clowns . I guess you are still
: confused
:
: Feeding is the process by which organisms, typically animals, obtain food. In behavior
: the anemone is feeding off the food the fish brought it but the fish is not feeding
the
: anemone, a behavioral active intentional act in animal behavior field....WHICH IS
: WHAT YOU CLAIM and all evidence disagrees with you.
:
: You have referred me to the dictionary to check my definition of "feeding"...
: I have checked mine and found I understand this word as in dictionary.
:
: What dictionary are you taking your definition from ? Can you quote the source ?
: How "intentions" can be detected in animals lacking their brain, for example: medusa ?
: What are "intentions" of meduza, which has no brain, and - does not think ?
: Is it still feeding, if there are no intentions? :-))
:
: Every one that is reading this thread knows what I mean
: and what you meant, to include youself.
:
: Well, I would not be so sure about this...
: Have you conducted any survey ? :)
:
: You made the claim on what your clown is doing, not me and now you
: are trying to defend it to make it you look better.
:
: I do not care to "look better". I do not have phd in animal behaviorism,
: I do not have any title to defend in front of my students :-))
: I can afford to be wrong in my observations - I am just a hobbyist
: observing a single pair of maroon clowns in a single tank...
: I have shared my observations and my interpretations of these.
: I said many times, that I can agree with scientists about the lack
: of intentions in the clowns behaviour, even if this is clear only
: from looking at my pair. My pair is probably not representative, so
: I can undestood it does not involve intentions - ok.
:
: What I have problem with is associations of "feeding" with intentions.
: My dicionary supports my understanding of word "feeding".
: You have some problems quoting any dictionary supporting your version...
: What is wrong in this picture ? :-)
:
: You are trying to find ways to dig yourself out of the hole.
: " um, maybe if I keep on the 'feeding" definition thing I'll
: gain some lost ground" Give it Up
:
: The problem is I am not in any hole...
: .
: I just ask you to show me in some reputable source your definition
: of word "feeding" :-) Do I ask for too much ? :-)
:
: Go head and dig some more post holes, I really do not care
:
: Yes you do...