Starting a reef tank
 

Inabón Yunes wrote:
How do the LFS's strings feel when he pulls them?
Are they tight around your arms?
Listen LFS's have only one thing in common, THEY WANT YOUR MONEY and they
will do whatever it takes to EARN YOURS BUSINESS...

The key word in there is "earn." They earn my business by giving me good advice
and decent prices. The decent prices are secondary; if they feed me a line of
bull, I go elsewhere.

George Patterson
If you torture the data long enough, eventually it will confess
to anything.

Starting a reef tank
 

"Don Geddis" wrote in message ...
"Pszemol" wrote on Fri, 28 Sep 2007:
"Don Geddis" wrote in message ...
Just to throw in another: anemones are filled with toxins. If you happen to
accidentally kill one (e.g. it gets caught in an overflow or pump intake),
then you could release a great volume of toxins into the tank all at once.

I disagree totally!

Well, let's have a debate then!

1) Even if an anemone is torn in on overflow or pump intake it is not
guarantee it will die.

Of course it isn't a guarantee of death. But it's surely highly correlated
with near-term death. Happens often enough.

In most cases I am familiar with, injured anemone was not even
given a chance to recover - it was removed from the tank with
the assumption it will die anyway.

They are pretty hardy animals and can survive
quite a lot of abuse... Think of them more like Aiptasia :-)

Not a chance.

I have a hard time killing Aiptasia anemones even deliberately. Cut them in
half, grind them up, stop feeding, little light. The damn things just show up
everywhere. Can't get rid of them.

If you asked me to kill a rose bubble tip, it wouldn't last a week.

The difference is mostly in size. Aiptasia anemones are quite small
and easy to hide in even smallest rock hole, crevices...
That is their survival technique - they burry stump in the rock and
during the day, when you do your killing actions, you barely see them.
If you inspect your tank with a flashlight, at night, you will see how
tiny polyps are expanding long stumps from the holes in the rock.
That is why you cannot kill them off the tank.

Bubble tip anemones are much larger animals, mostly out in the open
so they are more easy to injure/remove from the rock without chance
of survival. The basic principle is similar: both bubble-tips and aiptasia
are hardy animals with great capabilities of regeneration after injury.
Ask people who lost their anemone in some injury accident if they
even gave them chance or if they removed them from the tank right away.

I have witnessed personaly a rose bubble tip anemone sucked into pump
intake the way WHOLE ORAL DISC was removed and anemone survived. Literally
only a stump was left on the rock. In a matter of days the stump healed
and guts stopped hanging out from it. In the two more weeks a small oral
disc was formed with very little tentacles. Anemone started to feed
normally!

That's a great story. But hardly a common one.

Anemones getting ripped apart by pumps, and then dying, is far more common.
Another difference with Aiptasias. You toss a single Aiptasia into a pump,
and your whole tank will be filled with Aiptasias within a month.

In constrast, you toss a rose bubble tip into a pump intake, and you'll
almost certainly not have any rose bubble tip left a month from now. Your
anecdote notwithstanding.

Well, the difference is probably mostly in size of a polyp.

2) Anemone body is a thin bag filled with *water*. Not toxins, water!

Did I restrict my comment to the body of the anemone?

The tentacles are filled with toxins, which is how the anemones regularly kill
nearby corals. They're designed to be released in small amounts, on contact.
But if you grind up a whole bubble tip in a pump, all the toxins from all the
tentacles will be release into the water in a short time period, as the animal
disintegrates.

In the ocean, this isn't a problem. But in a tank with limited water volume,
you can wind up with great trouble for your other livestock.

Tentacles are PART OF THE BODY. When I was talking about their
body I was including tentacles. Their are like the latex glowe: take
a glowe and exhale some air into it (or water, to be more similar).
You will have a perfect model of a sea anemone. They are hollow inside.
Stump, oral disc, tentacles - anemone is a bag of thin "skin" filled with water.
Yes, tentacles are covered by a nematocysts (stinging cells), but that is is:
just a thin layer of cells: http://www.users.totalise.co.uk/~darrenbarton/id93.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cnidocyte Microscopic cells, microscopic volume.
They have no significant volume of toxins to be dangerous when diluted
in the tank vast water volume. They act only when injected to the victim body
by the nematocyst then the skin of live anemone is touched.

If the toxins were dangerous when anemone is destroyed, people
would have problems after destroying Aiptasia anemones in their
tanks, but people do this routinely with no adverse effects to the
water quality.

Deflated animal will have almost zero volume of its body. Even if you
grind it into pieces and let to rot in your tank you will not cause a major
outbreak of ammonia or "toxins" in your tank.

I wasn't talking about ammonia from the decomposition of the physical mass of
the anemone body. You're right that anemones have surprisingly little mass
given their fully-inflated volume.

I was talking about the toxins built up in the attacking tentacles.

Once again: toxins are not filling tentacles volume, they are filled with water.
Water inside them gives them form and shape - microscopic stinging cells
are found only on a thin surface layer.

3) Injured anemone only LOOKS DEAD and rotting, but this is only an
illusion! Leave it in the tank untouched and in most cases it will
recover.

I disagree completely with your "in most cases" phrase. Yes, it's possible.
But, unlike Aiptasia, you can't take bubble tips and regularly chop them up
into ten pieces with a knife, and expect to get ten healthy individuals in a
few months' time.

Yes, you can, and as I said before it is done routinely to create
many new anemones from one specimen. Fish stores do it,
aquarists do it, scientists do it - and it is pretty easy.
Dont believe me? Look http://reefnest.com/diy/slicinganemone/index.html
http://blogs.frags.org/showblog.php?bid=92
There is not much left to debate, my friend.

These animals have EXTRAORDINARY capabilities to regrow lost parts of their
body and this property is rutinelly used in the asexual propagation of the
anemones. Anyone who had ever problems with Aiptasia or Majano anemones in
their tanks will confirm how hard is to get rid of them even if you scrape
their stump/foot of the rock with a brush... Ornamental anemones like
bubble tips are not much different.

Bubble tips are hugely different in this respect, from Aiptasia and Majanos.
Bubble tips are far, far, far less robust from damage than those other
species.

But far, far, far, far more robust from damage than fish...
And that is why I see more similarity between different kinds of
anemones (Bubble tips, Aiptasia and Majanos are just kinds of anemone!)
than between anemones and fish. Fish are more similar to cats and cows:
when you cut cat a head it is dead and the head will not grow back.
When you cut anemone in half, in a matter of days/weeks you will have
two anemones.

This is a great example how fish, cats and cows are similar but anemone
totaly different. Try cuttin head of a cat and see if it survive... And
this is exactly what I was talking before.

Sure, of course there are some properties that are different. Fish, cats,
and cows have eyes, for example, and anemones don't.

I still think it's crazy to believe that caring for fish is more similar to
caring for cats/cows than caring for sea anemones.

You can think whatever you want :-)
However, "I think it is crazy to believe" is not a valid argument in a debate.

Agreed. If you kept a Moorish Idol (although I think you said it wasn't
doing that well, unfortunately), you should have no problem with a reef.
Or even with an anemone.

How is the knowledge collected with keeping a morish idol possible to help
someone in keeping a healthy sea anemone???

Obviously, the basics of keeping a stable ocean environment. Salinity,
temperature, water changes, feeding schedule, freshwater topoff, cleaning
the glass, etc. etc. etc.

For a Moorish Idol in particular, it includes a sensitivity to minor
environmental changes, as well as a specialized diet. Most fish you can just
toss anything barely edible into the tank, and they'll get by. You've got to
be a little more careful when taking care of a Moorish Idol. As you
similarly must be a little more careful when taking care of an anemone.

But the basics of care, in terms of 90% of what you spend your days and hours
doing, is the same with any tropical fish tank.

Exactly. So morish idol is not that different: it just needs specific diet
and that is why people have problems with this fish...
In case of sea anemone, not only their diet is quite specific but also
their anatomy, their behaviour, how they look when happy or sick, how
their reproduce, how they heal after injury, how to tell they are dead etc.
I have read about people toss away a perfectly good and healthy
anemone just because they noticed they expell all water from their bodies,
their normal life function, but they look dead to an uneducated owner.
Does it prove they are "difficult"? No, they are just different.
If treated right they are pretty hardy animals and we know very well
how to take care about most of the species. It is enough data out
there that after reading something about the animal you will not kill it.

p.s. how many sea anemones have you killed yourself?

Starting a reef tank
 

"Don Geddis" wrote in message ...
"Pszemol" wrote on Fri, 28 Sep 2007:
I think I have explained already why anemones are CONSIDERED difficult
and fish easy. Fish are simply similar to cats and cows, anemones are not.

I didn't get that from what you wrote. I thought you said that anemones are
difficult because they live in such a different "non-terrestrial" environment.
So they are very unlike cats and cows, because you have to care about things
like salinty, lighting, etc. that don't matter for cats and cows.

And my comment was that clownfish are much easier than anemones, but at the
same time also live in the ocean.

Are you seriously trying to tell me that if you had three folks keeping three
different kinds of pets:
1. cat and/or cow
2. clownfish
3. sea anemone
That you think #1 and #2 would have more in common with their pet care than
#2 and #3 would? That's just bizarre.

Yes, that is perfecty exact what I am trying to tell you.
It is easy to tell when a fish does not feel good.
It is easy to tell where a fish eats and were it poops.
It is easy to tell if a fish is eating or not eating.
It is easy to tell where a fish has head and were it has a tail.
It is easy to tell when a fish is alive and when a fish is dead.

All these things are easy for anybody who has ever observed vertebrate animals.

All these things are not that obvious when you have to judge sea anemones
or almost all invertebrate species not found around us on land.

If you only have experience taking care of a cow, how much do you have to
learn to also take care of a clownfish? You think it's close?

Not much! You will ask the questions what it eats and what to do with
manure clownfish produces and you will be almost good to go :-)
To take a good care about sea anemone you need to learn far more.

Meanwhile, if you've successfully raised clownfish before, how much extra do
you need to know in order to add a sea anemone? You somehow think that's a
huge step?

Yes, this is what I think. Anemones are COMPLETELY DIFFERENT
animals in their biology functions than any vertebrate animal...

I can see what you wrote, but it doesn't make any sense.

Ask more questions and I am sure eventually we understand each other :-)

I think you are wrong in an assumption that a person who never had a marine
fish tank is a kind of moron who cannot read and learn.

Not at all. I think it's helpful to proceed with easier, more robust steps
first, instead of jumping right to the most difficult cases.

Terms "easier" or "more robust" animals are fake terms to mascarade
aquarists lack of understanding particular animal biology and not knowing
how to care about them. The first step to know if animal is easy to care
or difficult you need to know WHAT IS REQUIRED TO PROPERLY CARE
for the given animal. Terms "easy" or "difficult" without explaining why
it is easy are not telling you much about what is required in carying for
a given animal. Taking care for an animal you have no knowledge about
is difficult whatever an animal is. It would be quite difficult to care for
cats or cows if you did not know what cats or cows eat or drink, agree?

I am sure that any intelligent person will have no issues with sea anemones
after reading a good book about them. A book will give you good
understaning about their biology, their needs in life and you will be ready
to keep anemone with no experience.

Really? With zero experience, you don't expect a first-time sal****er keeper
to ever make a mistake? Say, with acclimation of new livestock? Or having a
battery backup in case of power failure? Or putting a drip loop on every
piece of electrical equipment to avoid an accidential short in case of water
spillage? How often you must (vs. can) do water changes? How much water to
change?

All these things are talked about in every good book.
It is enough to read the book and you will know what to do.
You do not need experience to make drip loops on electrical equipment
or acclimate new livestock. It is easy to do with no experience at all.
What difficult you see in these simple functions?

If we talk about mistakes - everybody makes them.
We are just humans and we make mistakes.
The biggest mistake one can make in taking care for an aquarium
is to buy an animal you do not know how to properly take care of.

You somehow think that all this bitter experience just comes as second nature
to anyone who can bother to read a book?

You're really underestimating the value of practice, and of starting with some
easy tasks before jumping into the expensive and delicate ones.

Practice without knowledge is simply unnecessary reinventing the wheel.
First you LEARN to gain knowledge and then you improve it collecting
experience. Aproaching a bizare animal from a ocean like an anemone
without reading a book first is simply crazy and no experience can
substitute reading a good book.

Anemones are just very different animals than these we are used to in our
terrestial lives.

But clownfish are not very different from those we are used to in our
terrestrial lives?

Do you know what the word "terrestrial" means? Why did you write that word?

If you still do not know what I have ment than I can explain again...
But I am sure that at this point you know what I said.

But clownfish are vertebrate animals, very similar in their needs
to other vertebrates we see in our lives (see: cows and cats example).

That's just bizarre. I would challenge you to find anybody else on this
newsgroup who thinks that keeping a clownfish is more similar to taking
care of a cow, than taking care of a sea anemone.

Open your eyes and try to find vast difference in body structure of these
animals, their behaviour, etc... Try to think of similarities between
different kinds of vertebrate animals and differencies between
vertebrate and sea anemones. If you do not see much differences
than you are probably not ready to take care about an anemone...

I know how to keep a healthy sea anemone. I still wouldn't recommend it to
a brand new first-time reefkeeper. And you shouldn't either.

You seem to be very confused, my friend...
You are not in the position to tell me what I should or should not do.

Well of course you can keep posting your bad advice. I can't stop you.

Perhaps I should have written it like this: recommending that a brand-new
first-time reefkeeper start with an expensive, delicate sea anemone as one of
his first livestock purchases, is bad advice. It is bad advice whether I give
the advice, or whether Pszemol does. And it would be a bad idea for any such
new reefkeeper to follow such advice, regardless of who gives it.

Does that help? Obviously I'm not in a "position" to tell you what to do.

But recommending that a new aquarist start with a sea anemone is still bad
advice.

Who said here that an anemone should be the first thing he should buy?

Single clownfish in a tank with other bigger fish will be stressed.

I don't believe you. Proof?

Of course, any small fish will be stressed in a tank with bigger aggressive
fish. But I don't think there's anything special about clowns that requires
them in groups. Any more than any other fish which is usually found in
groups in nature.

Well... maybe you need to educate yourself a little more about clownfish :-)

I know a lot about clownfish. Don't make the mistake to believe that you're
talking to someone uneducated.

I challenge you again: please back up your assertion that having a single
clownfish in a tank will cause that clownfish to be stressed. Can you offer
ANY evidence that this is true?

Think of some reasons why clownfish are not seen in the nature alone,
without an anemone, and you will find the evidence you are looking for.

Meanwhile, I've seen lots and lots of tanks (e.g. nano tanks) that have
single clownfish, who appear to thrive just fine.

Nano tanks are just exception, because single clownfish is usually also
a single fish in the tank, so it has no larger fish in the tank to be affraid of...
But even in such situation single clownfish looks odd, confused and
without a purpose in life as opposite to a mated pair kept together.

Starting a reef tank
 

Hey gang, ok so here's where I stand after tshi weekend (unfortunatley
I did not make my goal of having it up and running with water and
substrate).
I have the tank setup in what will be its final
position...unfortunately I realized too late on Saturday that I didn't
have a good surge strip around to setup all the various bits and
pieces, so tonight I'll pick that up so I can actually get started.
The refugium is setup, all connected to the tank correctly (far as I
can tell, at any rate), so I now have 2 questions:
1. Where should I place the heater? The LFS recommended dropping it
either into the refugium or into hte overflow box...any opinions on
that?

2. Protein skimmer. I have one. It's put together and sitting in my
refugium. A couple things I'm unsure of: the 'waste' tube...where
should that be pointing? The guy at the store said just to stick it
into a soda bottle or something...agree on that? Other
question...where should the power pump go for the skimmer? I have the
pump for the overflow in the 'clean' side of the refugium, but was
unsure where to position the pump for the skimmer...Should it be in
the water in the ref.? Does it matter if it's on the dirty or clean
side?

Thanks again all for the wealth of great advice!
Mitch

Starting a reef tank
 

"Big Habeeb" wrote in message ups.com...
1. Where should I place the heater? The LFS recommended
dropping it either into the refugium or into hte overflow box...
any opinions on that?

Heater should be located in a place where it will be submerged
properly (check the mark on the heater for minimum water level)
in the water. Most heaters tolerate fully sumberged situation.
Second - it should be located in the place where is a good and
constant water flow to make it work efficiently.
Thrid - it is good to have it concealed from the view, an eye sore :-)

I keep mine in the sump, in the horizontal position.
So mine is fully submerged, it is in very high water flow place
and it is concealed from view. The problem of this location is
that if something happens with the circulation pump moving
water up from the sump to the tank, the tank will stop be heated.

2. Protein skimmer. I have one. It's put together and sitting in my
refugium. A couple things I'm unsure of: the 'waste' tube...where
should that be pointing? The guy at the store said just to stick it
into a soda bottle or something...agree on that?

Waste tube should be pointing to any waste container you imagine.
Soda bottle is good idea, I would use a milk bottle during first
phase of the live rock cycling because your skimmer might
produce a lot of waste during this time.

where should the power pump go for the skimmer? I have the
pump for the overflow in the 'clean' side of the refugium, but was
unsure where to position the pump for the skimmer...Should it be in
the water in the ref.? Does it matter if it's on the dirty or clean
side?

I have no idea what you mean by clean side or dirty side of
the refugium. Refugium is a place inside the reef tank or
outside reef tank where there are no planktonic predators,
so planktonic creatures can develop without predation.
Refugium is then a place where plankton grows and then
water from refugium flows to the main tank commensing
steady feeding process of planktonic creatures to your reef.
Refugium is usually filled with macroalgae because algae
is a perfect substrate for organisms like copepods or
amphipods to live in. Refugium is then lit, preferably in the
opposite lighting phase to the main tank to limit pH drifts
between night and day.

You might be talking about some filter/sump having clean
and dirty side... Skimmer removes dissolved proteins
and other dissolved organic chemicals, so it does not
really matter on which side of the sump.filter it is located.
Note, that sometimes outflow from the skimmer will have
some residue air bubbles, which can migrate through the
circulation pump to the main tank and make water look
cloudy due to the microscopic air bubbles in the water.
For that reason alone it is good to put skimmer in the sump
as early to the water flow as possible to let the water de-gass
freely before it hits the return/circulation pump.

Starting a reef tank
 

On Oct 1, 10:27 am, "Pszemol" wrote:
"Big Habeeb" wrote in oglegroups.com...
1. Where should I place the heater? The LFS recommended
dropping it either into the refugium or into hte overflow box...
any opinions on that?

Heater should be located in a place where it will be submerged
properly (check the mark on the heater for minimum water level)
in the water. Most heaters tolerate fully sumberged situation.
Second - it should be located in the place where is a good and
constant water flow to make it work efficiently.
Thrid - it is good to have it concealed from the view, an eye sore :-)

I keep mine in the sump, in the horizontal position.
So mine is fully submerged, it is in very high water flow place
and it is concealed from view. The problem of this location is
that if something happens with the circulation pump moving
water up from the sump to the tank, the tank will stop be heated.

2. Protein skimmer. I have one. It's put together and sitting in my
refugium. A couple things I'm unsure of: the 'waste' tube...where
should that be pointing? The guy at the store said just to stick it
into a soda bottle or something...agree on that?

Waste tube should be pointing to any waste container you imagine.
Soda bottle is good idea, I would use a milk bottle during first
phase of the live rock cycling because your skimmer might
produce a lot of waste during this time.

where should the power pump go for the skimmer? I have the
pump for the overflow in the 'clean' side of the refugium, but was
unsure where to position the pump for the skimmer...Should it be in
the water in the ref.? Does it matter if it's on the dirty or clean
side?

I have no idea what you mean by clean side or dirty side of
the refugium. Refugium is a place inside the reef tank or
outside reef tank where there are no planktonic predators,
so planktonic creatures can develop without predation.
Refugium is then a place where plankton grows and then
water from refugium flows to the main tank commensing
steady feeding process of planktonic creatures to your reef.
Refugium is usually filled with macroalgae because algae
is a perfect substrate for organisms like copepods or
amphipods to live in. Refugium is then lit, preferably in the
opposite lighting phase to the main tank to limit pH drifts
between night and day.

You might be talking about some filter/sump having clean
and dirty side... Skimmer removes dissolved proteins
and other dissolved organic chemicals, so it does not
really matter on which side of the sump.filter it is located.
Note, that sometimes outflow from the skimmer will have
some residue air bubbles, which can migrate through the
circulation pump to the main tank and make water look
cloudy due to the microscopic air bubbles in the water.
For that reason alone it is good to put skimmer in the sump
as early to the water flow as possible to let the water de-gass
freely before it hits the return/circulation pump.

I think by refugium I was referring to the sump. I still don't have
all my terminology down, obviously :)

I appreciate the tips. I think I will put the heater down in the
sump. Skimmer is pretty much setup, just a matter of getting the pump
in now. I'm picking up a surge strip with 4 'always on' ports, and 2
sets of 2 'timed' ports (2 separate timers). That should take care of
my lighting needs for the time being, as well as the various other
"plug us ins" that the system requires. I won't be turning any of it
on, however, until I get some water cranked into the tank...which is
going to take awhile, using the R/O unit and whatnot. I'll keep
everyone updated in this thread as to how it's coming along :)

Mitch

Starting a reef tank
 

"Big Habeeb" wrote in message oups.com...
I think by refugium I was referring to the sump. I still don't have
all my terminology down, obviously :)

Any book you have read explain the term refugium for you?

If not, get the book I gave you the title, maybe from the library.
They elaborate on the subject of refugiums, algae scrubbers,
filters in the sump etc. Of course, if I remember correctly...
It was couple of years ago I had this book in my hands but
I remember it was very informative on alterative technologies.

I'm picking up a surge strip with 4 'always on' ports,
and 2 sets of 2 'timed' ports (2 separate timers).

Are you sure they are to separate timers or just they
work on opposite schedules with one set of hours?

What is the brand name and model number of this timer?

Starting a reef tank
 

On Oct 1, 11:46 am, "Pszemol" wrote:
"Big Habeeb" wrote in ooglegroups.com...
I think by refugium I was referring to the sump. I still don't have
all my terminology down, obviously :)

Any book you have read explain the term refugium for you?

If not, get the book I gave you the title, maybe from the library.
They elaborate on the subject of refugiums, algae scrubbers,
filters in the sump etc. Of course, if I remember correctly...
It was couple of years ago I had this book in my hands but
I remember it was very informative on alterative technologies.

I'm picking up a surge strip with 4 'always on' ports,
and 2 sets of 2 'timed' ports (2 separate timers).

Are you sure they are to separate timers or just they
work on opposite schedules with one set of hours?

What is the brand name and model number of this timer?

Dont have the brand name on me - happened to see it at the LFS...but
yes, the box says in great big letters "2 timers" :)

Starting a reef tank
 

"Big Habeeb" wrote in message ups.com...
Dont have the brand name on me - happened to see it at the LFS
...but yes, the box says in great big letters "2 timers" :)

Please check it for me if you have a chance...
I was looking for such timer and could not find.
Thanks.

Starting a reef tank
 

Pszemol wrote on 10/1/2007 1:03 PM:
"Big Habeeb" wrote in message
ups.com...
Dont have the brand name on me - happened to see it at the LFS
...but yes, the box says in great big letters "2 timers" :)

Please check it for me if you have a chance...
I was looking for such timer and could not find.
Thanks.

You can see the details on the Coralife web site.

Wayne Sallee