Future scenario for the home aquarium.
 

"Frank" wrote in message
oups.com...
David Zopf wrote,
Hrrm. Don't want to totally rain on your idea, but I don't think it will
be realized. Heat tapes (like those used to prevent metal pipes from
freezing) are notoriously difficult to (affordably) control accurately
enough to prevent large temperature swings. They're either on and pumping
out the BTU's, or their off and cooling rapidly. I don't think they'll
ever
make a good basis as an affordable means of maintaining small volume water
temperature in a limited range.

I heated roll after roll of different size tanks and quart betta jars
in a few pet shops and in my basement with heat tape (like those used
to prevent metal pipes from freezing).

How,. since they don't usually turn on until it reaches something like 35 or
40 F.

(convection currents are
notoriously slow to transfer heat in a fluid medium).

I disagree - it's just the other way around. It's hard to heat an area
of water within a tank, without heating the whole tank of water!

Your betta bowls will
behave similarly; without water flow/agitation, you'll have a
uninhabitable
hot bottom (note: also where any settled decomp matter will be residing),
a
tropical middle, and a vastly cooler upper strata.

Hmmm - jars can be set in a tray of water. Heat tape on the bottom of
the tray heats the water within the tray, which heats the betta jars.

Makes sense.

You thought temperature
swings are bad when they occur too quickly..? Three guesses as to what
happens when you have eight or more degrees of temperature change _within
the 2 gallon bowl itself_... :-)

Plug the heat tape into a thermostat - I used an aquarium heater for
the thermostat. Just removed the aquarium heaters heating element and
plug/thermostat from the heat tape and wired the heat tape in place of
the heaters heating element.

Do you have pics of this on a website? I think I can picture this in my
mind. Still, knowing zero about wiring and electricity I would need to see
this to do it safely and correctly.

This 'thermostat' is then placed into
eather the end tank of a roll of tanks, or end jar of a roll of betta
jars, of which the heat tape runs under. The temperature within all the
tanks or jars, will be the same as what ever temp. is set on the
aquarium/thermostat in the tank/jar at the start of the roll - cheap
and easy! ............... Frank

I'm going to mention this to my husband and see if we can come up with
something......
--

Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
Aquariums: http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastada...ium-Page4.html
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o

Future scenario for the home aquarium.
 

On Tue, 17 Jan 2006 09:17:41 -0800, Larry Blanchard wrote:
Flash Wilson wrote:

When I did live in
a house with a basement, it was all crumbly and rat infested, with
cold air and rats coming in off the road via an airbrick. I put
a few boxes of stuff in there for storage, and they had rotted
when I moved house 4 years later.

That's not a basement, that's a cellar!

Yes... it's the cellar and/or basement, traditionally lives
under the ground floor, you know... :)

In the same way that the attic can also be called a loft and
traditionally lives in the roof above the top floor?

Seriously, do people outside of the UK use basement to mean
something else?


--
Flash Wilson - Web Design & Mastery - 0870 401 4061 / 07939 579090
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Work: www.wdam.co.uk Personal: www.gorge.org

Future scenario for the home aquarium.
 

Frank wrote:
David Zopf wrote,

Hrrm. Don't want to totally rain on your idea, but I don't think it will
be realized. Heat tapes (like those used to prevent metal pipes from
freezing) are notoriously difficult to (affordably) control accurately
enough to prevent large temperature swings. They're either on and pumping
out the BTU's, or their off and cooling rapidly. I don't think they'll ever
make a good basis as an affordable means of maintaining small volume water
temperature in a limited range.


I heated roll after roll of different size tanks and quart betta jars
in a few pet shops and in my basement with heat tape (like those used
to prevent metal pipes from freezing).


(convection currents are
notoriously slow to transfer heat in a fluid medium).


I disagree - it's just the other way around. It's hard to heat an area
of water within a tank, without heating the whole tank of water!


Your betta bowls will
behave similarly; without water flow/agitation, you'll have a uninhabitable
hot bottom (note: also where any settled decomp matter will be residing), a
tropical middle, and a vastly cooler upper strata.


Hmmm - jars can be set in a tray of water. Heat tape on the bottom of
the tray heats the water within the tray, which heats the betta jars.


You thought temperature
swings are bad when they occur too quickly..? Three guesses as to what
happens when you have eight or more degrees of temperature change _within
the 2 gallon bowl itself_... :-)


Plug the heat tape into a thermostat - I used an aquarium heater for
the thermostat. Just removed the aquarium heaters heating element and
plug/thermostat from the heat tape and wired the heat tape in place of
the heaters heating element. This 'thermostat' is then placed into
eather the end tank of a roll of tanks, or end jar of a roll of betta
jars, of which the heat tape runs under. The temperature within all the
tanks or jars, will be the same as what ever temp. is set on the
aquarium/thermostat in the tank/jar at the start of the roll - cheap
and easy! ............... Frank

Neat system. For the non-electronically inclined, if you have the betta
bowls in a tray of water anyway, could you use a normal aquarium heater
rather than heat tape to heat the water and transfer heat to the bettas?

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html '__
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

Thanks You! Future scenario for the home aquarium.
 

NetMax wrote:
"Elaine T" wrote in message
t...

NetMax wrote:

snip

I think the bottom line with many of us, is that we like to tinker.
We walk by the tank, and make a note to do something, or just do it
(move a rock, clean some algae, feed the fish, replant something, pull
some dead leaves out, watch some new behaviour, check how the fry are
doing etc etc). The suggested scenario took away your ability to
tinker.

Let me give an analogy. What you suggest is rather like putting a few
dogs into a big, grassy field with some cameras. (Assume their needs
for shelter and running room are met.) You would feed and water them
daily and clean up as necessary, but that would be the extent of the
interaction. On your living room wall would be a projection of the
dogs so you can see them play, sleep and hang out. The dogs would be
perfectly fine and your chores would be lighter, but the setup is not
the same as having a pet dog at your feet.

I think most of us think of our fish as pets. You've mentioned feeding
your fish with automatic feeders so you see more of the natural
behavior. In contrast, I enjoy watching my angel fish doing his little
"wiggle dance" at the front of the tank when I come into the room. All
he's after is a handout, but the interaction is still fun. Think of
how popular Oscars are because of their pet-like qualities!


I absolutely totally agree mostly :~). There are interactive set-ups and
there are non-interactive set-ups. Fish fall into the category of 'pets'
for a variety of reasons, and some fall conveniently into 'hobby'.
Another subset is 'decoration', to have layers of colors and activity. I
wouldn't put 'pet' fish into a remote tank, as this would make no sense,
they are interactive. Some fish as 'hobby' I would, and many new
hobbyists would see the 'decoration' aspect first.

For example, I once stocked a planted 130g tank with about 9 types of
tetras (about 15 each iirc). I could watch this tank for hours (some
days I did, as it was 10 feet from my counter at the pet shop). Once
they realized there were no predators in the tank, they each assumed
either an inter-species 'gameplay' or a focused intent on doing something
else (what - I could only guess). They broke into groups 6-12, barrelled
through other less-organised groups, then broke into smaller formations,
cheat-shoaled with other species (teenagers!), established alpha status
and minor pecking order (top 2 or 3) and danced around each other
(inter-species and not). The point is that it was really fun to watch.
Then a customer would walk over, and once they were about 5-6 feet from
the tank, all the animation would come to a stop, and the fish would go
into people-mode; hide, freeze, beg for food or slowly drift into the
background, and the customer would coo "what a pretty tank", oblivious to
the fact that they were only seeing a fraction of the potential
entertainment value. This is what many hobbyists see, their fish's
people-mode (which with some fish is frankly, predictable, dull &
repetitive, and Elaine knows that I'm taking a devil's advocate position
to this argument, so please don't anyone else flame me). Some of the
best enjoyment comes from undetected observation, particularly 'hobby'
fish, imho.

This is why I can't *totally* agree with you. There are too many reasons
to be in the hobby, like the fellow who could tell me the sci.name of
every plant in his tanks, but when asked what kind of fish he had, he
replied "some blue ones and some red ones" ;~). A remote tank might fill
a market niche if only to address some of the existing constraints
associated with larger tanks.

... gotta go now, I need to look up the word 'tripe' ;~)

You have a good point. However, I learned a long time ago to walk into
the room with a tank and sit quietly. Fish soon forget you're there.
I've seen all sorts of interesting behaviors doing this. Unfortunately,
sitting can be time consuming.

Maybe the thing to build would be a waterproof, remote controlled camera
designed for conventional aquaria. It could hook up to anything with a
video input. A fishkeeper could put the fish on TV or a projecter when
they want to see them without a person in the room, or walk over to the
conventional fishtank to interact with the fish.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html '__
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

Future scenario for the home aquarium.
 

"Frank" wrote in message
oups.com...
David Zopf wrote,
(convection currents are
notoriously slow to transfer heat in a fluid medium).

I disagree - it's just the other way around. It's hard to heat an area
of water within a tank, without heating the whole tank of water!

Oops, I skipped this part in my prior response. After a re-read, I
realize I didn't clearly express what I wanted to. Howsabout this instead:

Convection currents are slow to achieve an _even_ distribution of heat in a
fluid medium. This is one reason why nearly every instance of the use of
point-source heating in aquaria is accompanied by mechanical water movement
to assist with heat distribution (in addition to other very valuable
functions of water movement). The way I wrote it the first time, you're
right, if you crank up a heater in one corner of a tank (no pumps, no
agitation of the water), and the whole tank will get hotter (true to your
statement). However, there will be significantly different temperatures in
different areas of the tank relative to the heat source.

DaveZ
Atom Weaver

Future scenario for the home aquarium.
 

"Flash Wilson" wrote in message
...
Seriously, do people outside of the UK use basement to mean
something else?
=================
They do where I live. A basement is a finished cellar more or less.
Finished in that it looks like the other rooms in the house with paneling or
painted/wallpapered wallboard on the walls. The floor is carpeted or has
linoleum or tiles. Pipes are boxed in. A cellar is an unfinished area
showing the bare foundation, ugly water pipes, concrete or dirt floor etc.
--

Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
Aquariums: http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastada...ium-Page4.html
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o

Thanks You! Future scenario for the home aquarium.
 

"Elaine T" wrote in message
et...
NetMax wrote:
"Elaine T" wrote in message
t...

NetMax wrote:

snip

I think the bottom line with many of us, is that we like to tinker.
We walk by the tank, and make a note to do something, or just do it
(move a rock, clean some algae, feed the fish, replant something,
pull some dead leaves out, watch some new behaviour, check how the
fry are doing etc etc). The suggested scenario took away your
ability to tinker.

Let me give an analogy. What you suggest is rather like putting a few
dogs into a big, grassy field with some cameras. (Assume their needs
for shelter and running room are met.) You would feed and water them
daily and clean up as necessary, but that would be the extent of the
interaction. On your living room wall would be a projection of the
dogs so you can see them play, sleep and hang out. The dogs would be
perfectly fine and your chores would be lighter, but the setup is not
the same as having a pet dog at your feet.

I think most of us think of our fish as pets. You've mentioned
feeding your fish with automatic feeders so you see more of the
natural behavior. In contrast, I enjoy watching my angel fish doing
his little "wiggle dance" at the front of the tank when I come into
the room. All he's after is a handout, but the interaction is still
fun. Think of how popular Oscars are because of their pet-like
qualities!


I absolutely totally agree mostly :~). There are interactive set-ups
and there are non-interactive set-ups. Fish fall into the category of
'pets' for a variety of reasons, and some fall conveniently into
'hobby'. Another subset is 'decoration', to have layers of colors and
activity. I wouldn't put 'pet' fish into a remote tank, as this would
make no sense, they are interactive. Some fish as 'hobby' I would,
and many new hobbyists would see the 'decoration' aspect first.

For example, I once stocked a planted 130g tank with about 9 types of
tetras (about 15 each iirc). I could watch this tank for hours (some
days I did, as it was 10 feet from my counter at the pet shop). Once
they realized there were no predators in the tank, they each assumed
either an inter-species 'gameplay' or a focused intent on doing
something else (what - I could only guess). They broke into groups
6-12, barrelled through other less-organised groups, then broke into
smaller formations, cheat-shoaled with other species (teenagers!),
established alpha status and minor pecking order (top 2 or 3) and
danced around each other (inter-species and not). The point is that
it was really fun to watch. Then a customer would walk over, and once
they were about 5-6 feet from the tank, all the animation would come
to a stop, and the fish would go into people-mode; hide, freeze, beg
for food or slowly drift into the background, and the customer would
coo "what a pretty tank", oblivious to the fact that they were only
seeing a fraction of the potential entertainment value. This is what
many hobbyists see, their fish's people-mode (which with some fish is
frankly, predictable, dull & repetitive, and Elaine knows that I'm
taking a devil's advocate position to this argument, so please don't
anyone else flame me). Some of the best enjoyment comes from
undetected observation, particularly 'hobby' fish, imho.

This is why I can't *totally* agree with you. There are too many
reasons to be in the hobby, like the fellow who could tell me the
sci.name of every plant in his tanks, but when asked what kind of fish
he had, he replied "some blue ones and some red ones" ;~). A remote
tank might fill a market niche if only to address some of the existing
constraints associated with larger tanks.

... gotta go now, I need to look up the word 'tripe' ;~)

You have a good point. However, I learned a long time ago to walk into
the room with a tank and sit quietly. Fish soon forget you're there.
I've seen all sorts of interesting behaviors doing this.
Unfortunately, sitting can be time consuming.

Maybe the thing to build would be a waterproof, remote controlled
camera designed for conventional aquaria. It could hook up to anything
with a video input. A fishkeeper could put the fish on TV or a
projecter when they want to see them without a person in the room, or
walk over to the conventional fishtank to interact with the fish.

--
Elaine T __


Good idea. My ideal fishroom would be wall to ceiling, wall to wall
tanks in the den (den = finished basement, not root cellar ;~), so
projecting some to another room would be very interesting, especially if
the projection was of a quality that a casual observer would think it was
a built-in tank.

Incidentally, DAS already has my aquariums ready (4 foot tanks, stacked 3
high for 60g and two high for 100g, and the 60g are available in 4
configurations, twin 30g, triple 20g, single 60g or open plant tanks).
They are designed to fit wall to wall (with filler panels on the ends),
and come standard with drilled overflows for automated water change
systems. They are just waiting for me to show up with a cheque for
$150,000 ;~).

I wonder if I could buy them on a small business grant, incorporate,
write them off as capital losses and then quietly go bankrupt ;~).
--
www.NetMax.tk

Future scenario for the home aquarium.
 

"Koi-lo" wrote in message
...

"Flash Wilson" wrote in message
...
Seriously, do people outside of the UK use basement to mean
something else?
=================
They do where I live. A basement is a finished cellar more or less.
Finished in that it looks like the other rooms in the house with
paneling or painted/wallpapered wallboard on the walls. The floor is
carpeted or has linoleum or tiles. Pipes are boxed in. A cellar is
an unfinished area showing the bare foundation, ugly water pipes,
concrete or dirt floor etc.
--

Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
Aquariums: http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastada...ium-Page4.html
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o


Thanks Koi-Lo, that's about right. In Canada a typical new house is two
or three floors with the lower floor being the basement (often purchased
unfinished and left to the owner to decide how to arrange it, either in
bedrooms, bathrooms, rec room or den etc). Once finished, there is
little to distinguish a basement from any other level of a house except
that it's floor is on concrete (house foundation), its windows start
higher up (above the ground level), it is on or close to the same level
as the garage, and the main utilities enter there (ie: electrical panels
and laundry room are typically in the basement). Otherwise a basement
can have bedrooms, entertainment systems, studio, workshops, etc and my
fav. fishrooms :o).
--
www.NetMax.tk

Future scenario for the home aquarium.
 

"Flash Wilson" wrote...
On Tue, 17 Jan 2006 09:17:41 -0800, Larry Blanchard
wrote:
Flash Wilson wrote:

When I did live in
a house with a basement, it was all crumbly and rat infested, with
cold air and rats coming in off the road via an airbrick. I put
a few boxes of stuff in there for storage, and they had rotted
when I moved house 4 years later.

That's not a basement, that's a cellar!

Yes... it's the cellar and/or basement, traditionally lives
under the ground floor, you know... :)

In the same way that the attic can also be called a loft and
traditionally lives in the roof above the top floor?

Seriously, do people outside of the UK use basement to mean
something else?

as is the beauty of our language, one word/term can have multiple varients
of definition and usage. for the most part, cellars are for storage and
basements are for habitation. both can exist under the main living area of
a habitable structure as a part of the foundation, but only cellars can also
be seperate from any other surface structure so long as they are still
underground. this can get more confusing in areas like the midwestern
united states where 'storm cellars' are commonplace and used for short term
habitation in the event of a storm, usually tornados. others would draw a
dividing line between basements and cellars by the ability to control the
internal environment, i.e. heating/cooling, electrical service, plumbing,
etc. just to keep things more interesting there is also the 'dug-out
cellar' with electric/heat/plumbing and the 'unfinished basement' with
nothing at all.

much the same with attic/loft, attic = storage, loft = habitable. of
course this is all from a US perspective, you guys over the big water seem
to have different words like 'lift', 'boot', and 'bobby' for 'elevator',
'trunk', and 'copper'. ;-)


btw, were you gone for a while? havent seen you around untill just these
past couple weeks. (or maybe that was just me being gone) ;-)

Thanks You! Future scenario for the home aquarium.
 

NetMax wrote:

As*a*designer,
I'm accustomed to the majority of my ideas being bad, impractical or
otherwise unworkable.**From*an*engineering*perspective,*this
'scenario' offered some unconventional solutions for some conventional
problems.

I did some computer consulting with a company that had "brainstorming"
sessions. They finally gave up because the employees were too worried
about throwing out bad ideas and looking bad. I couldn't have cared
less and several of my ideas turned out to be at least partly useful.

Of course I was also the guy who, when I made a particularly dumb
mistake (they're all dumb when you catch them) would take a listing
around and show to everyone so they wouldn't make the same dumb
mistake.

The funny thing is, I wound up with quite a good reputation :-).

--
It's turtles, all the way down