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Starting a reef tank
"Wayne Sallee" wrote in message ...
Pszemol wrote on 10/1/2007 1:03 PM: "Big Habeeb" wrote in message ups.com... Dont have the brand name on me - happened to see it at the LFS ...but yes, the box says in great big letters "2 timers" :) Please check it for me if you have a chance... I was looking for such timer and could not find. Thanks. You can see the details on the Coralife web site. Do you think he is talking about mechanical timer discussed in the thread "Timer Review"? |
Starting a reef tank
"Pszemol" wrote on Sun, 30 Sep 2007:
"Don Geddis" wrote in message ... "Pszemol" wrote on Fri, 28 Sep 2007: Fish are simply similar to cats and cows, anemones are not. If you only have experience taking care of a cow, how much do you have to learn to also take care of a clownfish? You think it's close? Not much! You will ask the questions what it eats and what to do with manure clownfish produces and you will be almost good to go :-) So then, no need to learn about water tight containers with no rusting metal, about evaporation and the necessity of freshwater topoff, about stable tropical temperatures, about water changes, etc.? To take a good care about sea anemone you need to learn far more. A lot more than cows, that's for sure. Not "a lot" more than clownfish. Although I grant that it's very helpful to learn as much as possible about any specific species you care to keep. But that would be true if you were considering a mandarin dragonet or a moorish idol, and you had only kept clownfish before. Different species (may) have different requirements. Anemones are COMPLETELY DIFFERENT animals in their biology functions than any vertebrate animal... You've identified a single large grouping -- vertebrate vs. invertebrate -- and somehow concluded that this is the #1 and perhaps only concern when talking about pet care. You've made silly comments, such as that taking care of cows and clownfish are about the same, because both are vertebrates, but taking care of anemones is very different, because its an invertebrate. But there are many ways to group lifeforms. Standard taxonomic grouping in modern science is mostly based on evolutionary trees (where such can be determined). That is _not_ necessarily the ideal grouping when discussing pet care. Nor is there any guarantee that evolutionarily-close lifeforms will have similar care needs. In the case of care of pets, I'd have to say that the fact that cows live on land, while clownfish and sea anemones live in the ocean (in the same ecosystems, in fact!), is a far, far more important grouping that your vertebrate concern. Terms "easier" or "more robust" animals are fake terms to mascarade aquarists lack of understanding particular animal biology and not knowing how to care about them. That's not true. They refer to how wide a range of environmental conditions that an organism can survive (or thrive) in. How varied a diet can they eat, etc. Giant pandas are not robust, because they only eat certain species of bamboo. Rats, if they lose their primary favored foods, survive just fine on a large variety of substitute foods. If you lose a heater in a reef tank, and the temperature plunged from 80 degrees to 60 degree overnight, and you only discover that in the morning, some of your livestock is far more likely to be dead the next day, while other forms -- while not necessarily thriving -- can probably recover once you correct the problem. The ones that die are "sensitive", and the ones that survive are "robust". Fish are far more robust to ammonia spikes in the water than are stony corals. That's just bizarre. I would challenge you to find anybody else on this newsgroup who thinks that keeping a clownfish is more similar to taking care of a cow, than taking care of a sea anemone. Open your eyes and try to find vast difference in body structure of these animals, their behaviour, etc... Try to think of similarities between different kinds of vertebrate animals and differencies between vertebrate and sea anemones. If you do not see much differences than you are probably not ready to take care about an anemone... It's just one difference among many. And not the most useful difference for grouping animals, when considering from a perspective of pet care. Who said here that an anemone should be the first thing he should buy? This all started because the original poster suggested that he was new (although it turned out he had kept sal****er fish before), and asked for advice. One suggestion was that he get a clownfish as a first fish. You replied that he ought to get a clownfish and anemone together. I said that the clownfish might be a good choice for a new aquarist, but an anemone is probably not a good first choice (because it is a more delicate species). Just like a moorish idol is not a good first choice for a new aquarist. So, the answer is that YOU were the one who was recommending an anemone. I challenge you again: please back up your assertion that having a single clownfish in a tank will cause that clownfish to be stressed. Can you offer ANY evidence that this is true? Think of some reasons why clownfish are not seen in the nature alone, without an anemone, and you will find the evidence you are looking for. No, that doesn't support your point at all. Clownfish in nature are not found without anemones, because there are predators in nature, and clownfish require host anemones as protection. But we don't need to put those predators in our own tanks, so that "evidence" in nature tells you nothing at all about how a single clownfish would fare in a home tank without an anemone. So, rather than all your speculation, and turning the question around, try answering it directly. What positive evidence do YOU have, that supports your claim that a lone clownfish in a reeftank will be "stressed"? Nano tanks are just exception, because single clownfish is usually also a single fish in the tank, so it has no larger fish in the tank to be affraid of... But even in such situation single clownfish looks odd, confused and without a purpose in life as opposite to a mated pair kept together. I agree that smaller fish in a tank can be terrorized by larger aggressive fish. If that's your only claim, then you have to explain why you think this is any different from any other small fish in the same tank with the same large aggressive fish. _All_ the small fish, of any species (with a few minor exceptions) get stressed in that situation. You were claiming some special problem for clownfish in particular, different from other small fish. Please back up your claim, about why clownfish -- but apparently not other small fish -- "need" to be kept in groups, or else they'll be "stressed". Because the actual evidence seems to be the opposite. Namely, that clownfish naturally live in very small territories in nature, so they're among the very best fish to adapt to captive conditions in our limited-volume tanks. -- Don __________________________________________________ _____________________________ Don Geddis http://reef.geddis.org/ |
Starting a reef tank
On Oct 1, 4:18 pm, "Pszemol" wrote:
"Wayne Sallee" wrote in ... Pszemol wrote on 10/1/2007 1:03 PM: "Big Habeeb" wrote in message roups.com... Dont have the brand name on me - happened to see it at the LFS ...but yes, the box says in great big letters "2 timers" :) Please check it for me if you have a chance... I was looking for such timer and could not find. Thanks. You can see the details on the Coralife web site. Do you think he is talking about mechanical timer discussed in the thread "Timer Review"? No, its not a mechanical timer. It is a digital. I have a mech timer on my cichlid tank and it absolutely sucks :p I'll letcha know about this timer once I have a chance to og pick it up (hopefully tonight after work) |
Starting a reef tank
"Pszemol" wrote on Sat, 29 Sep 2007:
http://reefnest.com/diy/slicinganemone/index.html http://blogs.frags.org/showblog.php?bid=92 Interesting. I'll admit, I didn't know about this forced propagation. Still, there's a huge difference between carefully cutting a large, mature, healthy, well-fed specimen in half; vs. randomly chopping it into ten pieces, or grinding one through a powerhead pump. If you take an Aiptasia, smash it into paste, and pour it into your tank, I'm going to bet that a month later you have an Aiptasia infestation all over tank. You do the same to a bubble tip anemone, and you'll never see it again in your tank. I have read about people toss away a perfectly good and healthy anemone just because they noticed they expell all water from their bodies, their normal life function, but they look dead to an uneducated owner. So tell me, how do you tell when an anemone actually is dead? Does it prove they are "difficult"? No, they are just different. If treated right they are pretty hardy animals and we know very well how to take care about most of the species. It is enough data out there that after reading something about the animal you will not kill it. Of course it's possible to take care of them and even raise them. But that doesn't make it easy, especially compared to some other aquatic species. p.s. how many sea anemones have you killed yourself? I suppose the answer is one, but maybe it depends how you count. I've had up to five anemones over a few years. Had a sabae and long-tentacle green for awhile, then they started killing nearby corals, and I returned them to the LFS. Had a rose anemone for a long time. It grew big, and split: http://reef.geddis.org/55g/life.html#rose Then one of the daughters split again. So I had three for many months. I got a "reef safe" black spiny sea urchin at one point. Only to discover that within half an hour it basically found and devoured one of the rose clones. I pulled the urchin off, but the anemone was hard and bleached white over 3/4 of its body. I'll admit, I threw that one out (and returned the urchin). The other two clones, at different times much later, seemed to grow "sick". When it happened, the anemone would stay deflated 24 hours a day. Its foot would release from the rock, and it would just float all over the tank drifting by the currents. It would refuse to eat. I'd force some meaty food into its mouth, and it wouldn't react, and the food would eventually fall out. The tentacles weren't sticky. Anemones are capable of devouring themselves when in a low-nutrition situation, so the the anemone would slowly get smaller and smaller over weeks. It didn't seem to be water conditions. When it happened to the first clone, the other clone spent the whole time perfectly happy. Full expansion each day, eating happily, etc. Water changes seemed to have no effect. I don't know what went wrong. Much later, my last remaining rose clone had the same kind of failure. I generally left them alone for a few weeks. Aside from trying to reseat them in a rock (which never stuck), and force-feed, I didn't know what to do. Eventually I worried that the animal would decompose and release toxins in the water, potentially endangering my other fish and corals. So I'll admit that, in the end, I did remove each animal before it was completely dead. Note also that during all this, I had only been a reefkeeper for about six months. I think I'm much better at it now, can maintain much more stable water conditions, etc. I don't keep anemones any more, but I've got plenty of sensitive species, such as stony corals and seahorses. And a group of clownfish, which seem perfectly happy adopting a hammer corals (and before that, frogspawn corals) as hosts instead of their natural anemones. OK, your turn. How many anemones have you kept? How many have you killed? How much propagation have you done? -- Don __________________________________________________ _____________________________ Don Geddis http://reef.geddis.org/ Be on the lookout for a leopard which escaped from the zoo early this morning. It was spotted near the corner of 12th and Cherry at around 8am, and in all likelihood still is. |
Starting a reef tank
"Don Geddis" wrote in message ...
"Pszemol" wrote on Sat, 29 Sep 2007: http://reefnest.com/diy/slicinganemone/index.html http://blogs.frags.org/showblog.php?bid=92 Interesting. I'll admit, I didn't know about this forced propagation. Still, there's a huge difference between carefully cutting a large, mature, healthy, well-fed specimen in half; vs. randomly chopping it into ten pieces, or grinding one through a powerhead pump. What difference are you talking about? If you take an Aiptasia, smash it into paste, and pour it into your tank, I'm going to bet that a month later you have an Aiptasia infestation all over tank. No, it would not work. And if you are ready to bet, than we could arrange an experiment in controlled environment (like a aiptasia free tank "inoculated" with smashed aiptasia paste). I have read about people toss away a perfectly good and healthy anemone just because they noticed they expell all water from their bodies, their normal life function, but they look dead to an uneducated owner. So tell me, how do you tell when an anemone actually is dead? Only when you really see/smell it roting. Your nose is your best tool to recognise invertebrate death in reef tank. Does it prove they are "difficult"? No, they are just different. If treated right they are pretty hardy animals and we know very well how to take care about most of the species. It is enough data out there that after reading something about the animal you will not kill it. Of course it's possible to take care of them and even raise them. But that doesn't make it easy, especially compared to some other aquatic species. You are drifting again into a BAD understanding of word "easy" :-) There is nothing difficult in carying for an anemone, I asure you. No special skills are required. Only some minimal knowledge. With this minimum knowledge you can be sure of success. What I understand about "difficult" animal is for example when you need to feed some slug a special kind of sea sponge... It is difficult to buy such sponge, or to keep it in a tank with slugs, so inherently it will be difficult to take care about slug which only diet is such sponge. Another example, mandarin fish - it is difficult because it will only eat live plankton. Because it is usually hard to have plenty of live plankton in the reef tank carying for a mandarin is difficult, but only in certain situations (small tank, new tank etc). After a while, when reef is mature and tank is big enough to support a mandarin, carying for that fish is EASIER than carying for other fish: mandarin will feed itself from the rocks! p.s. how many sea anemones have you killed yourself? I suppose the answer is one, but maybe it depends how you count. I've had up to five anemones over a few years. Had a sabae and long-tentacle green for awhile, then they started killing nearby corals, and I returned them to the LFS. Had a rose anemone for a long time. It grew big, and split: http://reef.geddis.org/55g/life.html#rose Then one of the daughters split again. So I had three for many months. Very nice pictures... I got a "reef safe" black spiny sea urchin at one point. Only to discover that within half an hour it basically found and devoured one of the rose clones. I pulled the urchin off, but the anemone was hard and bleached white over 3/4 of its body. I'll admit, I threw that one out (and returned the urchin). Well... Urchin damage is only mechanical damage if I am correct, so it would likely survive the injury if given a chance... Different story is with predatory sea stars, they engulf prey with their stomach outside of their body and start digesting the prey even before consuming it. This kind of chemical poisoning would be in my opinion much harder to heal for an anemone than urchin bite. But I would ask some marine zoologist to be sure... The other two clones, at different times much later, seemed to grow "sick". When it happened, the anemone would stay deflated 24 hours a day. Its foot would release from the rock, and it would just float all over the tank drifting by the currents. It would refuse to eat. I'd force some meaty food into its mouth, and it wouldn't react, and the food would eventually fall out. The tentacles weren't sticky. Anemones are capable of devouring themselves when in a low-nutrition situation, so the the anemone would slowly get smaller and smaller over weeks. It didn't seem to be water conditions. When it happened to the first clone, the other clone spent the whole time perfectly happy. Full expansion each day, eating happily, etc. Water changes seemed to have no effect. I don't know what went wrong. Much later, my last remaining rose clone had the same kind of failure. Maybe they did not like the spot they were in and decided to move out ;-) I generally left them alone for a few weeks. Aside from trying to reseat them in a rock (which never stuck), and force-feed, I didn't know what to do. Eventually I worried that the animal would decompose and release toxins in the water, potentially endangering my other fish and corals. So I'll admit that, in the end, I did remove each animal before it was completely dead. Sad story.... They are beautiful animals. Note also that during all this, I had only been a reefkeeper for about six months. I think I'm much better at it now, can maintain much more stable water conditions, etc. I don't keep anemones any more, but I've got plenty of sensitive species, such as stony corals and seahorses. And a group of clownfish, which seem perfectly happy adopting a hammer corals (and before that, frogspawn corals) as hosts instead of their natural anemones. OK, your turn. How many anemones have you kept? How many have you killed? How much propagation have you done? I have kept two bubble-tips, one green-brown variety, which is now huge in my 58 gallon reef and a small rose bubble-tip which healed quickly after a power filter intake accident in a small 10 gallons pico reef. This accident was really looking horrible. Whole anemone was sucked into the tube of the power filter. Only base/stump with hanging out guts was left on the rock. It was total surprise for me, because anemone was sittin in one spot for months already. suddenly it moved for a suicidal mission. As I have already described before, it healed quickly. I had major water quality issues in my reef tank about two/three years ago. I lost two tuxedo urchins, 2 sea cukes and my anemone was very sick, similar to what you described: lack of inflation, non-sticky tentacles... Basically I have neglected the tank, let the maroon cyanobacteria overgrown the rocks and probably poison a lot of animals. After taking care of phosphates issues and correcting water quality my anemone recovered fully and sports beautiful bubble tips under the power compacts. Luckily, both are now growing fast and are perfectly healthy. |
Starting a reef tank
"Don Geddis" wrote in message ...
Who said here that an anemone should be the first thing he should buy? This all started because the original poster suggested that he was new (although it turned out he had kept sal****er fish before), and asked for advice. One suggestion was that he get a clownfish as a first fish. You replied that he ought to get a clownfish and anemone together. Can you quote with a msg-id of this post, please? I challenge you again: please back up your assertion that having a single clownfish in a tank will cause that clownfish to be stressed. Can you offer ANY evidence that this is true? Think of some reasons why clownfish are not seen in the nature alone, without an anemone, and you will find the evidence you are looking for. No, that doesn't support your point at all. Clownfish in nature are not found without anemones, because there are predators in nature, and clownfish require host anemones as protection. Why do they require anemones as protection? But we don't need to put those predators in our own tanks, so that "evidence" in nature tells you nothing at all about how a single clownfish would fare in a home tank without an anemone. How a clownfish behaves in a tank without anemone? Its instinct forces him to desperately search for ANY protection he can possibly find: frilly mushrooms, soft corals or even a water pump mounting bracket. Put clownfish in a tank with larger fish and you will not see clowns in the open much except when hungry during feeding. So, rather than all your speculation, and turning the question around, try answering it directly. What positive evidence do YOU have, that supports your claim that a lone clownfish in a reeftank will be "stressed"? See above. Nano tanks are just exception, because single clownfish is usually also a single fish in the tank, so it has no larger fish in the tank to be affraid of... But even in such situation single clownfish looks odd, confused and without a purpose in life as opposite to a mated pair kept together. I agree that smaller fish in a tank can be terrorized by larger aggressive fish. Not with an anemone... that is the whole idea. If that's your only claim, then you have to explain why you think this is any different from any other small fish in the same tank with the same large aggressive fish. _All_ the small fish, of any species (with a few minor exceptions) get stressed in that situation. You were claiming some special problem for clownfish in particular, different from other small fish. Please back up your claim, about why clownfish -- but apparently not other small fish -- "need" to be kept in groups, or else they'll be "stressed". Clownfish are stressed much more because the way they swim. They are very poor swimers compared to other small fish. They "know" very well their handicap and are stressed much more without a proper hideout. Because the actual evidence seems to be the opposite. Namely, that clownfish naturally live in very small territories in nature, so they're among the very best fish to adapt to captive conditions in our limited-volume tanks. Again, where did I say that we should not keep clownfish in our tanks? :-) |
Starting a reef tank
Yea I thought he was talking about the same thing,
now I see that he is talking about a digital one. I think Coralife made digital ones too, but not sure. I just now went to the coralife website, and it's down for remodeling. How stupid is that? Anytime a website is redone, the old one should remain untill the new one replaces it. It amazes me how so many companies run their web sites. I'll check another source later :-) Wayne Sallee Pszemol wrote on 10/1/2007 4:18 PM: "Wayne Sallee" wrote in message ... Pszemol wrote on 10/1/2007 1:03 PM: "Big Habeeb" wrote in message ups.com... Dont have the brand name on me - happened to see it at the LFS ...but yes, the box says in great big letters "2 timers" :) Please check it for me if you have a chance... I was looking for such timer and could not find. Thanks. You can see the details on the Coralife web site. Do you think he is talking about mechanical timer discussed in the thread "Timer Review"? |
Starting a reef tank
Big Habeeb wrote:
I have the tank setup in what will be its final position...unfortunately I realized too late on Saturday that I didn't have a good surge strip around to setup all the various bits and pieces, so tonight I'll pick that up so I can actually get started. You might also want to put most of this on a GFCI outlet. Only use this outlet for things that are actually in the water (like heaters). If the GFCI trips, it will be a real problem trying to figure out which piece of equipment tripped it, but leaving that faulty equipment on the tank can kill fish. 1. Where should I place the heater? The LFS recommended dropping it either into the refugium or into hte overflow box...any opinions on that? Given that choice, I would put it in the overflow box. 2. Protein skimmer. I have one. It's put together and sitting in my refugium. A couple things I'm unsure of: the 'waste' tube...where should that be pointing? The guy at the store said just to stick it into a soda bottle or something...agree on that? Other question...where should the power pump go for the skimmer? I have the pump for the overflow in the 'clean' side of the refugium, but was unsure where to position the pump for the skimmer...Should it be in the water in the ref.? Does it matter if it's on the dirty or clean side? The waste tube can go in any sort of collector - mine is routed to an old coffee jar. Just make sure that the collector is large enough to contain several day's effluent. The location of the input doesn't matter, since the skimmer will pull out stuff that the other filters won't touch. It runs just as well on "clean" water as "dirty." George Patterson If you torture the data long enough, eventually it will confess to anything. |
Starting a reef tank
Big Habeeb wrote:
Dont have the brand name on me - happened to see it at the LFS...but yes, the box says in great big letters "2 timers" :) Does it look like this? http://www.thatpetplace.com/pet/prod.../2/product.web George Patterson If you torture the data long enough, eventually it will confess to anything. |
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