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Starting a reef tank
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Starting a reef tank
"Pszemol" wrote on Mon, 1 Oct 2007 :
"Don Geddis" wrote in message ... Who said here that an anemone should be the first thing he should buy? This all started because the original poster suggested that he was new (although it turned out he had kept sal****er fish before), and asked for advice. One suggestion was that he get a clownfish as a first fish. You replied that he ought to get a clownfish and anemone together. Can you quote with a msg-id of this post, please? Message-ID: From: "Pszemol" "Don Geddis" wrote in message ... Fortunately, clowns do just fine in tanks with no sea anemones. So get the clowns -- but hold off on the sea anemones. So, I was recommending that a brand new reefkeeper get some clownfish as an initial livestock purchase, but not (yet) a sea anemone. Or... get the books I recomended, educate yourself and then it will be easy to not only keep clowns in a healthy anemone [...] But this is not a reason to not keep them - different does not mean they are difficult! [...] Keeping a single clownfish in a tank with other fish is kind of cruel in my view - these are social fish and are best kept in pairs (Maroons) or small groups (any other types, including your well known "Nemo"). I never said get only a single clownfish, but I also think there would be nothing wrong with starting that way. Your advice, to a new reefkeeper, appears to have been: get a sea anemone right away also (after reading books); sea anemones are easy, not difficult; and you MUST get a group of clownfish or else you'll have trouble (what trouble, exactly?). I think your advice, to a new aquarist, was wrong. You will not notice any trouble if you get a single clownfish instead of a group; you will not notice any trouble if you get clownfish without an anemone; and you may well have problems if you start off in your very first tank with a delicate sea anemone, while you're still figuring out the basics of how sal****er tanks work in general. Clownfish in nature are not found without anemones, because there are predators in nature, and clownfish require host anemones as protection. Why do they require anemones as protection? Didn't I answer that already in the very same sentence? Because they get eaten by predators in the wild. Predators which are not present in our captive tanks. Hence, the "need" that clownfish have in the wild for host anemones is not a "need" in captivity. How a clownfish behaves in a tank without anemone? Depends on the clownfish (species, and individuals), but often: just fine. I had four ocellaris clowns for a couple of years, that happily swam in the open water. In fact, books on clownfishes (like Wilkerson) generally recommend NOT keeping anemones, if your goal (for example) is to breed them. Anemones just add an extra, unneeded, layer of complexity. You can breed clowns just fine without any anemones at all. You keep asking these silly Socratic questions, as though I've never thought about this stuff before, and somehow your magic questions will make me realize "oh gosh, you're right, a sea anemone is a must!" Instead, why don't you try giving actual evidence that YOU have. What have you seen, or read about, that makes you believe captive clowns "need" a sea anemone. What -- EXACTLY -- goes wrong with the clowns if they don't have an anemone? Its instinct forces him to desperately search for ANY protection he can possibly find: frilly mushrooms, soft corals or even a water pump mounting bracket. It's true that clowns can find other hosts. And their instincts lead them to seek such hosts. But calling is "desparate" searching is unsupported anthropomorphizing. In any case, clowns using a mushroom as a host aren't suffering either. The mushroom might suffer, depending on the size & number of the clowns, vs. the size the of mushroom. But the clowns are fine either way. I've got three ocellaris clowns right now that are perfectly happy in a huge hammer coral. Put clownfish in a tank with larger fish and you will not see clowns in the open much except when hungry during feeding. As is true with any small, passive fish in the same tank as a large aggressive fish. You'll see EXACTLY the same behavior if you try, say, a yellow coral goby in a tank with a powderblue tang. Good luck seeing the goby again. There's nothing special about clownfish in this regard. I agree that smaller fish in a tank can be terrorized by larger aggressive fish. Not with an anemone... that is the whole idea. You are also correct that it might be possible to have a mixed tank, with a large aggressive fish, and also a small clown who is able to hide in a host anemone. I agree that such a combination might thrive. But another, perfectly good, solution is to have only the clown, and neither the anemone nor the large aggressive fish. You would then also have a happy tank. Clownfish are stressed much more because the way they swim. They are very poor swimers compared to other small fish. They "know" very well their handicap and are stressed much more without a proper hideout. That has not been my experience, nor the experience of the experts who write the books. You can easily keep a large number of clowns in a species-specific tank, and they'll be so happy that they breed constantly. There is no need for a "proper hideout" -- especially a sea anemone. (That said, I love clown/anemone symbiosis too, and have done it before myself numerous times. I think it's a great thing for an aquarist to aspire too. I just wouldn't suggest it as the #1 plan for a first-time reefkeeper.) -- Don __________________________________________________ _____________________________ Don Geddis http://reef.geddis.org/ The Great Roe is a mythological beast with the head of a lion and the body of a lion, though not the same lion. -- Woody Allen |
Starting a reef tank
"Pszemol" wrote on Mon, 1 Oct 2007 :
"Don Geddis" wrote in message ... Another example, mandarin fish - it is difficult because it will only eat live plankton. Because it is usually hard to have plenty of live plankton in the reef tank carying for a mandarin is difficult, but only in certain situations (small tank, new tank etc). After a while, when reef is mature and tank is big enough to support a mandarin, carying for that fish is EASIER than carying for other fish: mandarin will feed itself from the rocks! Yeah, I've got a couple of those too. Even easier than the regular fish: I don't even have to feed them! I have no concern that I can take off on vacation for a week or two, and the mandarins might starve. Maybe the other fish, but not the mandarins. I got a "reef safe" black spiny sea urchin at one point. Only to discover that within half an hour it basically found and devoured one of the rose clones. I pulled the urchin off, but the anemone was hard and bleached white over 3/4 of its body. I'll admit, I threw that one out (and returned the urchin). Well... Urchin damage is only mechanical damage if I am correct Actually, this didn't seem to be. so it would likely survive the injury if given a chance... Different story is with predatory sea stars, they engulf prey with their stomach outside of their body and start digesting the prey even before consuming it. This kind of chemical poisoning would be in my opinion much harder to heal for an anemone than urchin bite. The urchin sure looked like it did exactly what you are talking about with the sea stars. I don't think I saw the stomach come out, but maybe it did. But this was no mechanical ripping. There was no question that 3/4 of the anemone, the part touched by the urchin, was chemically destroyed and already rotting, within an hour. The color went from the usual translucent pink, to solid white. Just horrible. -- Don __________________________________________________ _____________________________ Don Geddis http://reef.geddis.org/ Winner, "Papers I wish I hadn't written" contest: Montagnino, Lucian A., "Test and Evaluation of the Hubble Space Telescope 2.4 Meter Primary Mirror" Proc. SPIE, Large Optics Technology, Vol. 571, August 1985 |
Starting a reef tank
"Don Geddis" wrote in message ...
"Pszemol" wrote on Mon, 1 Oct 2007 : "Don Geddis" wrote in message ... Who said here that an anemone should be the first thing he should buy? This all started because the original poster suggested that he was new (although it turned out he had kept sal****er fish before), and asked for advice. One suggestion was that he get a clownfish as a first fish. You replied that he ought to get a clownfish and anemone together. Can you quote with a msg-id of this post, please? Message-ID: From: "Pszemol" "Don Geddis" wrote in message ... Fortunately, clowns do just fine in tanks with no sea anemones. So get the clowns -- but hold off on the sea anemones. So, I was recommending that a brand new reefkeeper get some clownfish as an initial livestock purchase, but not (yet) a sea anemone. Or... get the books I recomended, educate yourself and then it will be easy to not only keep clowns in a healthy anemone And where in this message do I state he should get them *TOGETHER*? I never said get only a single clownfish, but I also think there would be nothing wrong with starting that way. Your advice, to a new reefkeeper, appears to have been: get a sea anemone right away also (after reading books); It apeared this way only in your INTERPRETATION. I have never stated he should go to the store and get the anemone as his first animal. It is just your vivid imagination, not my words. Clownfish in nature are not found without anemones, because there are predators in nature, and clownfish require host anemones as protection. Why do they require anemones as protection? Didn't I answer that already in the very same sentence? Because they get eaten by predators in the wild. Predators which are not present in our captive tanks. No, you did not answer. You have not explained why clownfish are SPECIAL and they REQUIRE anemone for survival in the wild but other small fish do not require anemone and are doing fine without it. Hence, the "need" that clownfish have in the wild for host anemones is not a "need" in captivity. Good luck explaining this to a clownfish :-) In fact, books on clownfishes (like Wilkerson) generally recommend NOT keeping anemones, if your goal (for example) is to breed them. Anemones just add an extra, unneeded, layer of complexity. You can breed clowns just fine without any anemones at all. Is she recomending mixing clownfish breeding without anemone with other larger fish in the same tank? You keep asking these silly Socratic questions, as though I've never thought about this stuff before, and somehow your magic questions will make me realize "oh gosh, you're right, a sea anemone is a must!" You got it :-) Instead, why don't you try giving actual evidence that YOU have. What have you seen, or read about, that makes you believe captive clowns "need" a sea anemone. What -- EXACTLY -- goes wrong with the clowns if they don't have an anemone? It is just logical reasoning. If you do not see it - oh well, I will not have problems sleeping over this. Its instinct forces him to desperately search for ANY protection he can possibly find: frilly mushrooms, soft corals or even a water pump mounting bracket. It's true that clowns can find other hosts. And their instincts lead them to seek such hosts. But calling is "desparate" searching is unsupported anthropomorphizing. In any case, clowns using a mushroom as a host aren't suffering either. The mushroom might suffer, depending on the size & number of the clowns, vs. the size the of mushroom. But the clowns are fine either way. I've got three ocellaris clowns right now that are perfectly happy in a huge hammer coral. Have you asked them if they are happy? Put clownfish in a tank with larger fish and you will not see clowns in the open much except when hungry during feeding. As is true with any small, passive fish in the same tank as a large aggressive fish. You'll see EXACTLY the same behavior if you try, say, a yellow coral goby in a tank with a powderblue tang. Good luck seeing the goby again. There's nothing special about clownfish in this regard. There is something very special about clownfish in this regard. You can put an anemone in the tank hosting pair of clowns and you will get a great looking tank with clownfish feeling like home and larger, aggressive fish staying with their limits set by anemone. I agree that smaller fish in a tank can be terrorized by larger aggressive fish. Not with an anemone... that is the whole idea. You are also correct that it might be possible to have a mixed tank, with a large aggressive fish, and also a small clown who is able to hide in a host anemone. I agree that such a combination might thrive. But another, perfectly good, solution is to have only the clown, and neither the anemone nor the large aggressive fish. You would then also have a happy tank. Not by my book, but you - go ahead :-) Clownfish are stressed much more because the way they swim. They are very poor swimers compared to other small fish. They "know" very well their handicap and are stressed much more without a proper hideout. That has not been my experience, nor the experience of the experts who write the books. You can easily keep a large number of clowns in a species-specific tank, and they'll be so happy that they breed constantly. There is no need for a "proper hideout" -- especially a sea anemone. (That said, I love clown/anemone symbiosis too, and have done it before myself numerous times. I think it's a great thing for an aquarist to aspire too. Then why are you working so hard convincing new aquarists againt it?? I just wouldn't suggest it as the #1 plan for a first-time reefkeeper.) Nobody else did. |
Starting a reef tank
Big Habeeb wrote:
I'm confused...how would it overflow the sump with the power turned off? With the power off it wont be sucking in any water, nor will it be pushing any back out...so how would it overflow??? That will depend on the design. Some units have been poorly designed. These will have a syphon from the tank to the sump with some sort of shutoff mechanism. Tanks with overflows are designed to have a sump that's bigger than the amount of water above the top of the overflow. If the power goes off, water is no longer being pumped back into the tank. With the first type, if the syphon shutoff mechanism fails, the sump overflows. With the second type, if someone buys a sump that's too small, it will overflow. Sounds like you believe that yours has a pump to pump water out of the tank and down to the sump. If the power goes off, that will be a very effective syphon. George Patterson If you torture the data long enough, eventually it will confess to anything. |
Starting a reef tank
Big Habeeb wrote:
I guess my plan for the moment has changed to 1. add substrate 2. continue adding water till about 60% filled...add salt and allow to stir...make sure salt content is good etc, and then add the live rock 3. Add/take out water as needed to accomodate live rock, and then crank it up and keep my fingers crossed :) Uh.... You haven't added any salt yet? In that case, I would join Wayne and Pzemol in recommending that you fill it all the way and check your equipment out. Then drain off 40%, mix in your salt and continue at step 2. Use a few 5 gallon buckets or a big, new, plastic trash can to collect the water you drained off. You'll need something for mixing up water for water changes anyway. Personally, I would fill the tank, check the equipment out for a day or two, mix the salt in and let it stabilize and then drain off as needed while adding the rock. You might waste $5 worth of salt that way, but the mixing part would be easier. You could drain 4 gallons into a bucket, add rock until the tank is full again, toss the water in the bucket, and repeat until all the rock is in. Then top off the tank from the bucket. George Patterson If you torture the data long enough, eventually it will confess to anything. |
Starting a reef tank
"George Patterson" wrote in message news:tZBMi.621$n92.262@trnddc06...
Sounds like you believe that yours has a pump to pump water out of the tank and down to the sump. If the power goes off, that will be a very effective syphon. Why would you need a pump to move water down to sump? Gravity does this for you for free. Pump is needed to work AGAINST gravity, and pump the water up to the tank. |
Starting a reef tank
On Oct 2, 9:09 pm, George Patterson wrote:
Big Habeeb wrote: I'm confused...how would it overflow the sump with the power turned off? With the power off it wont be sucking in any water, nor will it be pushing any back out...so how would it overflow??? That will depend on the design. Some units have been poorly designed. These will have a syphon from the tank to the sump with some sort of shutoff mechanism. Tanks with overflows are designed to have a sump that's bigger than the amount of water above the top of the overflow. If the power goes off, water is no longer being pumped back into the tank. With the first type, if the syphon shutoff mechanism fails, the sump overflows. With the second type, if someone buys a sump that's too small, it will overflow. Sounds like you believe that yours has a pump to pump water out of the tank and down to the sump. If the power goes off, that will be a very effective syphon. George Patterson If you torture the data long enough, eventually it will confess to anything. George, This was indeed my mistake. I'm very much used to cannister/hanging filters, where the power both pulls water out, and pushes water in. I was actually thinking about this thread last night while looking at my setup and realizing once again that is not the case here. Presumable my sump is large enough, since it fills most of the stand below the tank...but I should find out in the next day or two when I power it on. Tank is currently about 1/4 full of R/O freshwater, no sand or rocks or anything of that kind, obviously. I'm very eager to power on and see how well this thing is going to run! Mitch |
Starting a reef tank
"Pszemol" wrote on Tue, 2 Oct 2007 :
"Don Geddis" wrote in message ... "Don Geddis" wrote in message ... Fortunately, clowns do just fine in tanks with no sea anemones. So get the clowns -- but hold off on the sea anemones. Or... get the books I recomended, educate yourself and then it will be easy to not only keep clowns in a healthy anemone And where in this message do I state he should get them *TOGETHER*? Well, gosh. I post a message that recommends you get the clownfish first, and "hold off" on the sea anemone (i.e., get the anemone later, after you have more experience). You reply: "Or...". What does "or" mean, except that you disagree with my suggestion, and that you DON'T think the new aquarist should "hold off" on getting the sea anemone? All the rest of your message is about how "easy" it is to raise sea anemones (as long as you read books first). I think anyone reading your message would conclude that you believe a new aquarist ought to get clownfish and sea anemones together (after reading some books), right at the beginning. If that's not what you meant, then you don't write very clearly. You have not explained why clownfish are SPECIAL and they REQUIRE anemone for survival in the wild but other small fish do not require anemone and are doing fine without it. Well, that's the niche they have in the wild. They've developed a survival strategy which requires symbiosis with a host anemone to avoid getting eaten. In the absense of an anemone, they're missing the survival skills required by other small fish. For example, they're (relatively) slow swimmers, not great at changing direction, not a "schooling" fish, not a fish that can squeeze into rocks like a hippo tang or eel, etc. But again, NONE of this has anything to do with whether clownfish in a captive tank without an anemone are "happy" or not. In fact, books on clownfishes (like Wilkerson) generally recommend NOT keeping anemones, if your goal (for example) is to breed them. Anemones just add an extra, unneeded, layer of complexity. You can breed clowns just fine without any anemones at all. Is she recomending mixing clownfish breeding without anemone with other larger fish in the same tank? Not particularly, but she's talking about the most reliable way to get regular successful breeding. That includes using species-specific tanks. My only point -- which you seem to keep avoiding -- is that you're conflating two different issues. One is whether clownfish in captivity "need" a sea anemone, or else something goes wrong. The answer is clearly no. The most successful clownfish capitive breeders don't use anemones at all. A totally different question is: in a community reef tank, with lots of different species, if you also have aggressive, larger fish, how do small clownfish do in such a community tank? In that, you're probably right that clownfish have few alternatives for protection other than some kind of host, preferably anemones. But those aren't the only alternatives. You can ALSO have an awesome community reef tank, WITHOUT including large aggressive fish. And in that case, the clownfish once again have no need of a host anemone. Instead, why don't you try giving actual evidence that YOU have. What have you seen, or read about, that makes you believe captive clowns "need" a sea anemone. What -- EXACTLY -- goes wrong with the clowns if they don't have an anemone? It is just logical reasoning. Sorry, that's not going to cut it. This isn't Greek philosophy 2000 years ago, where you can just think happy thoughts and imagine what the world must be like. Science rules these days. Unless you have actual observational evidence, your "just so" stories about what must "logically" be happening are worth nothing. And, on the other side, I have tons of documented evidence that clownfish breeders are hugely successful without anemones, and in fact prefer setting up tanks without them -- I know of no clownfish captive breeder who uses host anemones in their farming practices. And successful repetitive breeding is generally the "gold standard" about whether a species is "happy" in captivity. I'm open to other standards, if you have one to propose. But so far, all you've offered is your so-called "logical" opinion. Given that, vs. the documented evidence of clownfish breeders (and also my own personal experience keeping different species of clowns in my tanks) ... I know which side of the bet I'd put my money on. I've got three ocellaris clowns right now that are perfectly happy in a huge hammer coral. Have you asked them if they are happy? Let's turn the question around. What evidence do you have that they are unhappy? If we were unsure whether or not they were happy -- besides your "logical reasoning", of course -- what could I actually OBSERVE about them that would settle the question? Do you have ANYTHING concrete to say on the subject? As is true with any small, passive fish in the same tank as a large aggressive fish. You'll see EXACTLY the same behavior if you try, say, a yellow coral goby in a tank with a powderblue tang. Good luck seeing the goby again. There's nothing special about clownfish in this regard. There is something very special about clownfish in this regard. You can put an anemone in the tank hosting pair of clowns and you will get a great looking tank with clownfish feeling like home and larger, aggressive fish staying with their limits set by anemone. You are correct that when clownfish are threaten with physical danger, their only real response is to retreat into a host anemone. But this tells you nothing at all about how they would fare in a tank without threats of physical danger. I've mentioned this (common) case many, many times in this thread, and you have yet to respond to it. But another, perfectly good, solution is to have only the clown, and neither the anemone nor the large aggressive fish. You would then also have a happy tank. Not by my book, but you - go ahead :-) Again, nobody cares about your random opinion. Can you provide ANY objective evidence that the clowns are "stressed", in any way? (That said, I love clown/anemone symbiosis too, and have done it before myself numerous times. I think it's a great thing for an aquarist to aspire too. Then why are you working so hard convincing new aquarists againt it?? Haven't I answered this many times? Because caring for (delicate) sea anemones requires learning everything about caring for (very robust) clownfish first, plus some additional things to learn about which can also go wrong. So, the advice for a new aquarist should be: start simple, gain some experience, and as you become more confident and begin to make fewer mistakes, only then start adding more delicate/challenging species. That's the general advice. The specific advice is: go ahead and get clownfish at the beginning (they're as good an initial species as any other), but hold off on the sea anemones until you gain some experience and your tank becomes a little more stable. I just wouldn't suggest it as the #1 plan for a first-time reefkeeper.) Nobody else did. Then why have you been arguing with me? All your responses have been about how anemones are "easy", and "not difficult". And, for that matter, about how clownfish without an anemone would be "stressed" (which is clearly false, in general). If you think anemones are as easy to keep as clownfish, then why NOT get them together as your initial livestock purchase for a new aquarist? What do YOU have against that plan? You're really not making any sense. -- Don __________________________________________________ _____________________________ Don Geddis http://reef.geddis.org/ I am not a vegetarian because I love animals; I am a vegetarian because I hate plants. -- A. Whitney Brown |
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