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Comedey of Errors - Wait or Medicate
Hi all!
Welcome to my comedey of errors. I'll tell you the situation briefly first, and then a more detailed version after. 1. New tank setup - less than a week old. - 23 US Gallons - Aquaclear 200 - 1 dose of Hagen Cycle, Aquaclear - PH 7.0 - 7.5 - 79 - 80 degrees F 2. Fish 1 Placostamus 1 Pregnant Female Guppy 1 Pregnant Female Platy 1 Healthy Male Fancy Guppy 1 very sick (will probably die when I get home) Male Fancy Guppy 1 Male Platy 2 healthy Gouramis 2 Neon Tetras (one appears to have a salt grain on it - I think it is ich!) 1 Baby platy in a breeding trap (very cute and healthy looking - 3 days old) 2 Serpae Tetras (I think this is what they are called) 2 Zebra Daneos 1 Clown Loach (it's a bottom feeding fish - I may have the name wrong) 1 Female swordtail 3. Current losses 1 Male swordtail 1 Female Guppy What happened when the fish died : Both fish became lathargic, hovered at the surface of the water, and DIED. My poor wife has become the aquatic grim reaper as she has been putting the corpses in the freezer to bring back to the pet shop for warranty (lucky us!). The sick male guppy listed above is hanging around at the surface of the water and his fancy tail is torn to shreds. QUESTION: I know the tank is very new and it needs to cycle to the proper bacteria and nitrate levels. However, given the ich on the neon tetra, I'm not sure if I should medicate or not. As we don't have a hospital tank, I'm concerned that medications will hurt our baby Platy and cause havoc with the cycling process. The other fish in the tank seem to be ok. Also, is it safe to do a water change? Do I have to be concerned about temperature changes in the tank? Will a waterchange harm the cycling process? If I do a cycle change, can I put the aquaclear in after the water is poured in the tank? Will letting the water stand overnight equally remove chlorine? Here is a little more detail as to what happened: 1. Got a 15 gallon tank. Pet shop thought it was a 20 gallon tank and advertised it as such. I bought too many fish for the size of the tank. It was in this tank that the 2 fish died. I tried treating the fish with Furon-2 for ich (the Neon Tetras I mean). I could only give a 2 day dosage though because I had to swap the tanks. I did not want to put this stuff in the new tank. 2. I got a 23 gallon tank. I started everything fresh without medicine. I put the cycle and chlorine clearing chemicals (Hagen). All the filter materials were replaced with new ones. I transfered the fish. The Platy gave us a baby bundle which is in the breeding trap and is growing fairly quickly. The male guppy is going through a slow, lingering death. Overall, I think the fish are doing better in the bigger tank - but still... Any ideas? Neil |
Comedey of Errors - Wait or Medicate
Maybe too late as an advise....but I think you did not do your homework
before getting your package...I think even for a 20 gal tank, you got way too many fishes...particualry teh tank was not even cycled! IMHO, let the tank cycle and set up....do your weekly water changes.... Also you are mixing agressive fishes qith community ones...and why 2 neons? I am sure they feel miserable.....BUt again...take your time now...check how your tank is doing....and dont add more fishes...at least for the next three months! Then check what you hae left, and how can you balance the rest... Good luck -- Paulo "NSP" wrote in message om... Hi all! Welcome to my comedey of errors. I'll tell you the situation briefly first, and then a more detailed version after. 1. New tank setup - less than a week old. - 23 US Gallons - Aquaclear 200 - 1 dose of Hagen Cycle, Aquaclear - PH 7.0 - 7.5 - 79 - 80 degrees F 2. Fish 1 Placostamus 1 Pregnant Female Guppy 1 Pregnant Female Platy 1 Healthy Male Fancy Guppy 1 very sick (will probably die when I get home) Male Fancy Guppy 1 Male Platy 2 healthy Gouramis 2 Neon Tetras (one appears to have a salt grain on it - I think it is ich!) 1 Baby platy in a breeding trap (very cute and healthy looking - 3 days old) 2 Serpae Tetras (I think this is what they are called) 2 Zebra Daneos 1 Clown Loach (it's a bottom feeding fish - I may have the name wrong) 1 Female swordtail 3. Current losses 1 Male swordtail 1 Female Guppy What happened when the fish died : Both fish became lathargic, hovered at the surface of the water, and DIED. My poor wife has become the aquatic grim reaper as she has been putting the corpses in the freezer to bring back to the pet shop for warranty (lucky us!). The sick male guppy listed above is hanging around at the surface of the water and his fancy tail is torn to shreds. QUESTION: I know the tank is very new and it needs to cycle to the proper bacteria and nitrate levels. However, given the ich on the neon tetra, I'm not sure if I should medicate or not. As we don't have a hospital tank, I'm concerned that medications will hurt our baby Platy and cause havoc with the cycling process. The other fish in the tank seem to be ok. Also, is it safe to do a water change? Do I have to be concerned about temperature changes in the tank? Will a waterchange harm the cycling process? If I do a cycle change, can I put the aquaclear in after the water is poured in the tank? Will letting the water stand overnight equally remove chlorine? Here is a little more detail as to what happened: 1. Got a 15 gallon tank. Pet shop thought it was a 20 gallon tank and advertised it as such. I bought too many fish for the size of the tank. It was in this tank that the 2 fish died. I tried treating the fish with Furon-2 for ich (the Neon Tetras I mean). I could only give a 2 day dosage though because I had to swap the tanks. I did not want to put this stuff in the new tank. 2. I got a 23 gallon tank. I started everything fresh without medicine. I put the cycle and chlorine clearing chemicals (Hagen). All the filter materials were replaced with new ones. I transfered the fish. The Platy gave us a baby bundle which is in the breeding trap and is growing fairly quickly. The male guppy is going through a slow, lingering death. Overall, I think the fish are doing better in the bigger tank - but still... Any ideas? Neil |
Comedey of Errors - Wait or Medicate
Hi
I am not a skilled as some of the people here but I thought I would reply and the other more skilled people will reply later on. First off that is far too many fish for a tank that has been set up only a week. When you set up a new tank it's best to have it running at least a few days before you add fish, and when you add fish you should start with only 3 really hardy fish and then wait at least a week before adding new ones, the longer the better. In reality you should add 3 of the hardy fish and test the water to see if the nitrate, nitrite and ammonim go up and then go back down again, usually takes a few weeks, or you could do a fishless cycle which is usually much better, I'm not sure how they work though as I've always used fish to cycle my tank. I would bring a sample of the water into the pet store and ask to have it tested, most if not all places will test for free. Also if you have bought the fish recently most pet stores will take them back so you can do this properly as the way your tank is now most of the fish are likely to die since it hasn't cycled properly. Also even when the tank is fully cycled that might be too much fish for the tank if you follow the 1 inch per gallon rule, since the guppies and platy's get around 3 inch's and you have 5 of the guppies and platy's total including the sick one. So that's 15 gallons of fish right there, also they are that hardy of a fish, the pleco only gets around 16 inch's depending what kind it is so it will probably out grow your tank. The gouramis are pretty hardy so they might survive the cycling process but it depends on what kins you get they range in size from 2 inchs to 12, you probably got the dwarf gourami's. Neon tetra's are probably one of the least hardy fish that I know of personally since they seem to be the fish most often returned dead, they get 2 inch's each roughly so now you are up to 23 inch's roughly not including the pleco so 23 plus gallons of water. Then i'm not sure on the hardiness of the serpae tetra's but i think they get around 2-3 inchs each so that's an additional 5 gallons, the zebra's are really hardy fish and most likely the ones to survive the cycling and they get 2-3 inch's so that's an additional 5 gallons. The clown loach get's around 11 inchs if i'm not mistaken so that's roughly 11 gallons so that's 44 gallons total. Then the sword get's at least 5 inch each so that totals around 50 inch of fish total not including the pleco. I personally think you should return all the fish except the zebra's, or maybe them also and find yourself a new store to get fish from because the one you are going to now clearly doesn't have a clue, if they ask the right questions. I know where I work we have to ask how long the tank has been set up, how many fish, how big and what kind of fish. Also how long was the 15 gallon set up for, and did you use the gravel from that tank. If the tanks was set up a while and you used the gravel and moved it straight from the one tank to the other you may be ok, but if it wasn't set up long then I would really recommend returning the fish if possible and starting from the beginning. You can search on the net for info on setting up new tanks also. "NSP" wrote in message om... Hi all! Welcome to my comedey of errors. I'll tell you the situation briefly first, and then a more detailed version after. 1. New tank setup - less than a week old. - 23 US Gallons - Aquaclear 200 - 1 dose of Hagen Cycle, Aquaclear - PH 7.0 - 7.5 - 79 - 80 degrees F 2. Fish 1 Placostamus 1 Pregnant Female Guppy 1 Pregnant Female Platy 1 Healthy Male Fancy Guppy 1 very sick (will probably die when I get home) Male Fancy Guppy 1 Male Platy 2 healthy Gouramis 2 Neon Tetras (one appears to have a salt grain on it - I think it is ich!) 1 Baby platy in a breeding trap (very cute and healthy looking - 3 days old) 2 Serpae Tetras (I think this is what they are called) 2 Zebra Daneos 1 Clown Loach (it's a bottom feeding fish - I may have the name wrong) 1 Female swordtail 3. Current losses 1 Male swordtail 1 Female Guppy What happened when the fish died : Both fish became lathargic, hovered at the surface of the water, and DIED. My poor wife has become the aquatic grim reaper as she has been putting the corpses in the freezer to bring back to the pet shop for warranty (lucky us!). The sick male guppy listed above is hanging around at the surface of the water and his fancy tail is torn to shreds. QUESTION: I know the tank is very new and it needs to cycle to the proper bacteria and nitrate levels. However, given the ich on the neon tetra, I'm not sure if I should medicate or not. As we don't have a hospital tank, I'm concerned that medications will hurt our baby Platy and cause havoc with the cycling process. The other fish in the tank seem to be ok. Also, is it safe to do a water change? Do I have to be concerned about temperature changes in the tank? Will a waterchange harm the cycling process? If I do a cycle change, can I put the aquaclear in after the water is poured in the tank? Will letting the water stand overnight equally remove chlorine? Here is a little more detail as to what happened: 1. Got a 15 gallon tank. Pet shop thought it was a 20 gallon tank and advertised it as such. I bought too many fish for the size of the tank. It was in this tank that the 2 fish died. I tried treating the fish with Furon-2 for ich (the Neon Tetras I mean). I could only give a 2 day dosage though because I had to swap the tanks. I did not want to put this stuff in the new tank. 2. I got a 23 gallon tank. I started everything fresh without medicine. I put the cycle and chlorine clearing chemicals (Hagen). All the filter materials were replaced with new ones. I transfered the fish. The Platy gave us a baby bundle which is in the breeding trap and is growing fairly quickly. The male guppy is going through a slow, lingering death. Overall, I think the fish are doing better in the bigger tank - but still... Any ideas? Neil |
Comedey of Errors - Wait or Medicate
[mid-posted/alot of snippage/summary at end]
"NSP" wrote Hi all! Welcome to my comedey of errors. hello neil, welcome to the hobby of fish keeping. a wonderful source of parodies for any comedy of errors. ;-) 1. New tank setup - less than a week old. - 23 US Gallons - Aquaclear 200 - 1 dose of Hagen Cycle, Aquaclear - PH 7.0 - 7.5 - 79 - 80 degrees F 2. Fish 1 Placostamus i'd return this guy. if you really want one you can pick one up again at a later date, but as for now, he's probably not too happy in an uncycled tank. 1 Pregnant Female Guppy 1 Pregnant Female Platy 1 Healthy Male Fancy Guppy 1 very sick (will probably die when I get home) Male Fancy Guppy 1 Male Platy 2 healthy Gouramis i'd return these guys also. unless they are the dwarf type, they (like the pleco) will quickly get to large. 2 Neon Tetras (one appears to have a salt grain on it - I think it is ich!) 1 Baby platy in a breeding trap (very cute and healthy looking - 3 days old) 2 Serpae Tetras (I think this is what they are called) 2 Zebra Daneos 1 Clown Loach (it's a bottom feeding fish - I may have the name wrong) return this guy too. the pleco, gouramis and this guy are generally great fish for people who 1.) have an established set up, 2.) have a large enough set up, and 3.) have a great deal of experience. 1 Female swordtail 3. Current losses My poor wife has become the aquatic grim reaper as she has been putting the corpses in the freezer to bring back to the pet shop for warranty (lucky us!). dont replace the fish that have died! get an in-store credit. you want to do this for two reasons; 1.) the new fish you are bringing in could just be adding new "illnesses" to your already unstable tank. 2.) you're going to lose more fish anyway. slow the process by letting the population in yur tank drop, fewer fish at this point have a better chance of surviving than having alot of fish does. QUESTION: I know the tank is very new and it needs to cycle to the proper bacteria and nitrate levels. However, given the ich on the neon tetra, I'm not sure if I should medicate or not. no. this is of course my opinion, but without the tank having cycled, adding medications is only going to complicate things even more. you really need to let the cycle happen. As we don't have a hospital tank, i'm assuming this means you no longer have the 15 gallon. I'm concerned that medications will hurt our baby Platy and cause havoc with the cycling process. quite right. not so much that the medications could actually "hurt" the young, it is more of a "stabilization" issue, one of the things i've learned is to "leave it alone" in a sense. the more you mess with something with added chemicals and such, the more difficult you make it for the tank to find it's own ballence of cycle. The other fish in the tank seem to be ok. they probably wont be for long. be prepaired, you're going to lose more fish. Also, is it safe to do a water change? Do I have to be concerned about temperature changes in the tank? Will a waterchange harm the cycling process? yes. yes. and no. yes. it is very important at this stage to do lots of water changes, i personally at this point would be doing a 10% per day water change. it will keep the levels of toxins down to a more bearable level. yes. it is important to keep the temperature stable, there are many different ways and opinions on this one, one way is to use "touch" to adjust your tap water (mix of hot and cold) to match your tank temperature, another way is get a digital thermometer and match the temperatures exactly using the same hot/cold method above, another is to let your water sit and adjust to room temperature before adding. no. water changes will not harm your cycling process. but it will make your fish alot happier and healthier through the stress of it. (remember though, you're still going to lose some more). If I do a cycle change, can I put the aquaclear in after the water is poured in the tank? Will letting the water stand overnight equally remove chlorine? make sure you are using a dechlorinizer for chlorine/chloromine otherwise you will kill your cycle and some fish as well. most people i believe add it to their water change bucket as it is filling. although i have seen people add it directly to the tank ad they are adding the new water. because it works instantly (dont ask me how because i dont know, i take it on faith that it does. ;-) ) you sould be safe in either case. (someone disagree with me quick if i am wrong on this one!). letting the water sit overnight will not be effective if your water company uses chloromine instead of chlorine. either find out exacly what your company uses or just dont take the chance, use the dechlorinizer. Here is a little more detail as to what happened: I started everything fresh without medicine. I put the cycle and chlorine clearing chemicals (Hagen). All the filter materials were replaced with new ones. dont do that again if you can help it. the less stuff you are changing around the better. including filter material (actually, especially(!!) filter material). Any ideas? stability. the key word to fish keeping from my perspective. you're tank will create it's own level of stability if you let it. the only thing you need to change at this point is the water, 10% every day till it begins to stabilize, check your ammonia and nitrites every day, you may need to increase the water changes to keep the toxins down to a safe level. do not treat with medications, in my opinion this would only complicate things even more. you may raise the temperature to about 80-82 degree to help flush the ick out. add some aquarium salt also to help get the ick under control, it is debatable as to just how much this helps a tank or the fish, but in my opinion, it cant hurt and it makes me feel better because i am adding something. ;-) getting rid of the pleco, gouramis and loach right now is the best thing for them, other wise they are just going to suffer, make your other fish suffer because of the increased demands on the water, and probably die themselves anyway. replace them after you have an established tank and are a bit more experience with these types of fish (i.e. know more about the fish themselves and the environments they require). of the remaining fish you have, (this is going to sound cold) be prepared to have most of them die, expect it. do not over feed them! if nothing else, underfeed them, i would personally stop all feedings on a daily basis, feed twice a day every other day and only what they will eat in two minutes, no more. if they act hungry (which they will) consider this, they're getting more food now than they were at the pet store. ;-) a worst case scenario is that everything is going to die within a week. if this happens then you can start over again with a bit more experience and succeed. i have never heard of anyone failing to cycle a tank on the second time around but there are lots (myself included) that failed it the first time around. there are lots of people here willing and wanting to help, just keep us informed on how it's going and we'll keep throwing out our opinions and advice. :-) best of luck to you neil, tedd. p.s. one last piece of advice, there is no such thing as a stupid question here. |
Comedey of Errors - Wait or Medicate
Tedd wrote:
p.s. one last piece of advice, there is no such thing as a stupid question here. Although there are some that will draw the ire of our less tolerant co-posters. Set skin thickness to +3. -D P.S. Doing your homework also helps... Try here... http://fins.actwin.com/mirror/ -- "When you've lost your ability to laugh, you've lost your ability to think straight." -To Inherit the Wind |
Comedey of Errors - Wait or Medicate
On Wed, 12 Nov 2003 16:51:07 -0700, "Tedd"
wrote: you may raise the temperature to about 80-82 degree to help flush the ick out. I agree with Tedd on everything but this. Raising the temp will not kill the ich - only speed-up its life cycle, making the fish even more ill. It is sometimes recommended to raise the temp while using ich medication to kill off each generation more quickly, but I think it's a bad idea when you're not using medication. Cris |
Comedey of Errors - Wait or Medicate
Cris wrote:
On Wed, 12 Nov 2003 16:51:07 -0700, "Tedd" wrote: you may raise the temperature to about 80-82 degree to help flush the ick out. I agree with Tedd on everything but this. Raising the temp will not kill the ich - only speed-up its life cycle, making the fish even more ill. It is sometimes recommended to raise the temp while using ich medication to kill off each generation more quickly, but I think it's a bad idea when you're not using medication. Cris If you want to kill it, you're looking at 85 deg F, but there is a recorded case of Ich killing at 93 deg F. See my recent post on r.a.f.goldfish quoting the paper from the Aquaculture Center... -D -- "When you've lost your ability to laugh, you've lost your ability to think straight." -To Inherit the Wind |
killing ich with temperature (was: Comedey of Errors)
"Donald Kerns" wrote See my recent post on r.a.f.goldfish quoting the paper from the Aquaculture Center... donald, could you repost that here, i dont have the r.a.f.g. :-( tedd. (deprived but alive) |
Comedey of Errors - Wait or Medicate
Thanks for the info.
You quoted, "TYPICALLY, ich cannot reproduce properly at water temperatures above 85deg F." Which is good, but it's still a gamble because the already suffering fish won't like temps that high. If the problem was only Ich, I would try it, but with high levels of ammonia and/or nitrite I think I'd skip that. Anyway, if he gets the water back to healthy levels the fishes' immune systems will improve and hopefully no treatment will be needed. If the Ich condition gets bad before then treatment will be needed. He really ought to get a hospital tank so that he can address more than one problem at once. ....Just my opinion. Cris On Wed, 12 Nov 2003 18:49:06 -0800, Donald Kerns wrote: Cris wrote: On Wed, 12 Nov 2003 16:51:07 -0700, "Tedd" wrote: you may raise the temperature to about 80-82 degree to help flush the ick out. I agree with Tedd on everything but this. Raising the temp will not kill the ich - only speed-up its life cycle, making the fish even more ill. It is sometimes recommended to raise the temp while using ich medication to kill off each generation more quickly, but I think it's a bad idea when you're not using medication. Cris If you want to kill it, you're looking at 85 deg F, but there is a recorded case of Ich killing at 93 deg F. See my recent post on r.a.f.goldfish quoting the paper from the Aquaculture Center... -D |
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