Uncontrollable High pH
 

The water here is off the chart on my test strips for ph and Total
alkalinity (kH, I believe). Is there anything I can do to lower the
Alkalinity, and then the pH, preferably without changing the hardness?
The hardness is just right, it runs right around 120 ppm. I've tried
just about everything, from using plain pH down by Aquarium
Pharmaceuticals Inc. to a buffer put out by Sea-Chem named pH 7.0
Neutral Regulator. I've also tried boilling the water before adding
these chemicals. I've tried using something like 50 times the
recommended dosage of both on a gallon of water I had sitting in a
bucket only to not have it change at all. I've got some Africans, some
Convicts and some Angelfish, all of which absolutely thrive in this
water (they are all breeding, at least). Will the Rams do okay in this
seemingly unchangable water? If not, is there some way I haven't thought
of to change the pH? I want desperately to try some fish that require
neutral or acidic water such as Rams, but the quest seems hopeless.
Thanks for any help you might be able to provide.



--
Posted via CichlidFish.com
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"Deepseafisher" -DONTEMAIL wrote in message
...
The water here is off the chart on my test strips for ph and Total
alkalinity (kH, I believe). Is there anything I can do to lower the
Alkalinity, and then the pH, preferably without changing the hardness?
The hardness is just right, it runs right around 120 ppm. I've tried
just about everything, from using plain pH down by Aquarium
Pharmaceuticals Inc. to a buffer put out by Sea-Chem named pH 7.0
Neutral Regulator. I've also tried boilling the water before adding
these chemicals. I've tried using something like 50 times the
recommended dosage of both on a gallon of water I had sitting in a
bucket only to not have it change at all. I've got some Africans, some
Convicts and some Angelfish, all of which absolutely thrive in this
water (they are all breeding, at least). Will the Rams do okay in this
seemingly unchangable water? If not, is there some way I haven't
thought
of to change the pH? I want desperately to try some fish that require
neutral or acidic water such as Rams, but the quest seems hopeless.
Thanks for any help you might be able to provide.


What is your pH? Pour a glass of tap water and leave it on your counter
for a day (to outgas any trapped gases) and then measure the pH. One way
to reduce your pH without affecting your hardness is to raise the CO2
level in the water with a CO2 injection system.
--
www.NetMax.tk

--
Posted via CichlidFish.com
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Deepseafisher -DONTEMAIL wrote in news:cq408q
:

The water here is off the chart on my test strips for ph and Total
alkalinity (kH, I believe). Is there anything I can do to lower the
Alkalinity, and then the pH, preferably without changing the hardness?

add some acids?

--
http://www.neopets.com/refer.phtml?username=moosespet

Have you investigated the idea of collecting rainwater to do your water
changes with? I had some really high pH #'s (8.4), Kh was 180, and GH was
300. So I can't just use tap water here.

But what I did (ymmv) was to use distilled water during the water changes as
well as add ph down as well.This really was not a big help. But I read about
a fellow "Frankrkay" describes how he does it and I am trying to do
something similar....


_________

This is from post from December, 1983 by Frankrkay


Rain water, for the most part, is soft, has low pH, and has low kH and gH. I
used it for water changes in quite a few tanks, after running it through a
home
made filter.
Waters buffering capacity (kH) is due to carbonates and bicarbonates, which
gives the water ability to keep pH stable. Rainwater is likely to have low
kH -
kH below 4.5dH will cause unstable pH. Sence most people with a tank or two
doesn't have a kH test kit, you can tell if the kH is getting low by testing
the pH. A pH drop of more than two tenths in 4 weeks, means the water's
buffering capacity is almost used up, and it's time to increase kH. You can
raise kH without raising gH (for soft water fish), by adding baking soda. To
raise both gH and kH together ( for hard water fish), add marble chips or
sea
shells to the filter. With rain water, you should filter out heavy metals
and
volatile organic compounds (unburned fuel) - things that can't be
broke-down
by bacteria. After an initial downpour, catch the rain water in a 30 to 40
gal.
plastic trash can, filtered through filter floss, peat moss (binds heavy
metal
impurities), and
activated carbon, or poly filter...... Frank

_________

Check this site out too http://mike-edwardes.members.beeb.net/rain.html

HTH :-)

--
James





"Deepseafisher" -DONTEMAIL wrote in message
...
| The water here is off the chart on my test strips for ph and Total
| alkalinity (kH, I believe). Is there anything I can do to lower the
| Alkalinity, and then the pH, preferably without changing the hardness?
| The hardness is just right, it runs right around 120 ppm. I've tried
| just about everything, from using plain pH down by Aquarium
| Pharmaceuticals Inc. to a buffer put out by Sea-Chem named pH 7.0
| Neutral Regulator. I've also tried boilling the water before adding
| these chemicals. I've tried using something like 50 times the
| recommended dosage of both on a gallon of water I had sitting in a
| bucket only to not have it change at all. I've got some Africans, some
| Convicts and some Angelfish, all of which absolutely thrive in this
| water (they are all breeding, at least). Will the Rams do okay in this
| seemingly unchangable water? If not, is there some way I haven't thought
| of to change the pH? I want desperately to try some fish that require
| neutral or acidic water such as Rams, but the quest seems hopeless.
| Thanks for any help you might be able to provide.
|
|
|
| --
| Posted via CichlidFish.com
| http://www.cichlidfish.com/portal/forums

How about an RO unit, then re buffer the water yourself from there.

That's always an excellent option if one is receptive to the initial $$$
outlay for a good RO/DI setup. But these can waste a lot of water during the
purification process. But, in my area rainwater still if free ( Don't tell
no one)

If my wife said money was no object.. I'd have a RO/DI installed tomorrow.
LOL :-)

--
James

"Phil" wrote in message
...
| How about an RO unit, then re buffer the water yourself from there.
|
|

One question not yet asked is the age of your kit.

Over time, test kits become less reliable. If yours is over a year old,
I suggest you buy a new kit to confirm the pH level before continuing.

Boy, I'd love to buy an RO unit, but the price is no-where near my range. I haven't tried rainwater yet, next time it rains, I'll certainly give it a shot. I bought one more pharmaceutical from the LFS guy, who said that he almost sells more of it than he does fish. It was Proper pH 7.0 by Aquarium Pharmaceuticals. It took about a triple dose to do it, but it lowered the pH and kept it at 7. A knew problem has arisen though. It removed all of the hardness from my water. Will it be possible to regain hardness without increasing pH? I bought a really nice test kit, and my pH in untreated water runs 9.8..:eek: The kH runs 35 degrees. Well, I appreciate the help.

--Jeff



--
Posted via CichlidFish.com
http://www.cichlidfish.com/portal/forums

I think what you meant to say was that 'pH is hard to control if the
buffer level is too *low*'. A high buffer makes your pH very stable
(hard to change but very stable ;~).

if I understood correctly..
--
www.NetMax.tk

"James" wrote in message
...
pH is hard to control if the buffer level is too high (KH), so deal
with
that 1st. Read these pages and maybe this will get you pointed in the
right
direction.

A word of caution, make any water changes SLOWLY. The slower the more
stability you will have in the total water chemistry


http://www.drhelm.com/aquarium/chemistry.html

http://mike-edwardes.members.beeb.net/rain.html


--
James

"Deepseafisher" -DONTEMAIL wrote in
message
...
| Boy, I'd love to buy an RO unit, but the price is no-where near my
range.
I haven't tried rainwater yet, next time it rains, I'll certainly give
it a
shot. I bought one more pharmaceutical from the LFS guy, who said that
he
almost sells more of it than he does fish. It was Proper pH 7.0 by
Aquarium
Pharmaceuticals. It took about a triple dose to do it, but it lowered
the
pH and kept it at 7. A knew problem has arisen though. It removed all
of
the hardness from my water. Will it be possible to regain hardness
without
increasing pH? I bought a really nice test kit, and my pH in untreated
water runs 9.8..:eek: The kH runs 35 degrees. Well, I appreciate the
help.
|
| --Jeff
|
|
|
| --
| Posted via CichlidFish.com
| http://www.cichlidfish.com/portal/forums

pH is hard to control if the buffer level is too high (KH), so deal with
that 1st. Read these pages and maybe this will get you pointed in the right
direction.

A word of caution, make any water changes SLOWLY. The slower the more
stability you will have in the total water chemistry


http://www.drhelm.com/aquarium/chemistry.html

http://mike-edwardes.members.beeb.net/rain.html


--
James

"Deepseafisher" -DONTEMAIL wrote in message
...
| Boy, I'd love to buy an RO unit, but the price is no-where near my range.
I haven't tried rainwater yet, next time it rains, I'll certainly give it a
shot. I bought one more pharmaceutical from the LFS guy, who said that he
almost sells more of it than he does fish. It was Proper pH 7.0 by Aquarium
Pharmaceuticals. It took about a triple dose to do it, but it lowered the
pH and kept it at 7. A knew problem has arisen though. It removed all of
the hardness from my water. Will it be possible to regain hardness without
increasing pH? I bought a really nice test kit, and my pH in untreated
water runs 9.8..:eek: The kH runs 35 degrees. Well, I appreciate the help.
|
| --Jeff
|
|
|
| --
| Posted via CichlidFish.com
| http://www.cichlidfish.com/portal/forums

LOL, did I say that? I gotta get a real job. ;-)

In my experience, when the total alkalinity (TA), carbonate hardness (KH) aka "the water buffer" , was too high you could drop the pH by adding acid or dilute the total sample with distilled water, but the pH would be resistant to really change and remain changed, until the TA got below 60-80ppm. Since I always have had some seriously hard water out of my tap, it takes quite a bit of tap to make that kind of water change without a "pH crash', shocking and possibly injuring the fish.

I guess the point I was trying to get across, you need the buffer knocked down, get you pH adjusted then reset buffer levels (100ppm)

Whew :)

--
James
"NetMax" wrote in message ...

I think what you meant to say was that 'pH is hard to control if the
buffer level is too *low*'. A high buffer makes your pH very stable
(hard to change but very stable ;~).

if I understood correctly..
--
www.NetMax.tk

"James" wrote in message
...
pH is hard to control if the buffer level is too high (KH), so deal
with
that 1st. Read these pages and maybe this will get you pointed in the
right
direction.

A word of caution, make any water changes SLOWLY. The slower the more
stability you will have in the total water chemistry


http://www.drhelm.com/aquarium/chemistry.html

http://mike-edwardes.members.beeb.net/rain.html


--
James

"Deepseafisher" -DONTEMAIL wrote in
message
...
| Boy, I'd love to buy an RO unit, but the price is no-where near my
range.
I haven't tried rainwater yet, next time it rains, I'll certainly give
it a
shot. I bought one more pharmaceutical from the LFS guy, who said that
he
almost sells more of it than he does fish. It was Proper pH 7.0 by
Aquarium
Pharmaceuticals. It took about a triple dose to do it, but it lowered
the
pH and kept it at 7. A knew problem has arisen though. It removed all
of
the hardness from my water. Will it be possible to regain hardness
without
increasing pH? I bought a really nice test kit, and my pH in untreated
water runs 9.8..:eek: The kH runs 35 degrees. Well, I appreciate the
help.
|
| --Jeff
|
|
|
| --
| Posted via CichlidFish.com
| http://www.cichlidfish.com/portal/forums

My kit is only like 3 days old. I got it for a birthday present. That
oughtn't be a problem, at least I think.



--
Posted via CichlidFish.com
http://www.cichlidfish.com/portal/forums

Thanks for all of the replies. I am currently trying to thaw some snow
that fell (very unusual for Texas) and I will see how that is going to
work to maybe dilute some of the water. I got about 30 or 40 gallons of
well packed snow, who knows how much water that will be when it melts...

Anyway...

Does anyone know where to find Calcium Carbonate? Will Calcium Carbonate
affect pH along with the gH and kH? Is it a household substance, or
something I'll have to buy from the LFS. Are there other ways to
increase gH? Also, what can I buy (short of an RO unit) that will lower
my kH? Is rainwater my only realistic option for lowering kH?

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year

--Jeff



--
Posted via CichlidFish.com
http://www.cichlidfish.com/portal/forums

Deepseafisher wrote:
Thanks for all of the replies. I am currently trying to thaw some snow
that fell (very unusual for Texas) and I will see how that is going to
work to maybe dilute some of the water. I got about 30 or 40 gallons
of well packed snow, who knows how much water that will be when it
melts...

Anyway...

Does anyone know where to find Calcium Carbonate? Will Calcium
Carbonate affect pH along with the gH and kH? Is it a household
substance, or something I'll have to buy from the LFS. Are there
other ways to increase gH? Also, what can I buy (short of an RO unit)
that will lower my kH? Is rainwater my only realistic option for
lowering kH?

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year

--Jeff

The company below have it on their website. I have no idea how good or bad
they are :)

http://www.iowapyrosupply.com/chemical.html

And have a read at this article.

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issu...y2002/chem.htm

Here where I am in Scotland it is trying to snow. Maybe we will have a white
Chrisrmas.

Merry Christmas and a proserous New Year.



--

Don`t Worry, Be Happy
Sandy
--
E-Mail:-
Website:- http://www.ftscotland.co.uk
Looking for a webhost? Try http://www.1and1.co.uk/?k_id=2966019

Well, the snow flopped miserably, but rain water seems to be doing okay.
The second site Sandy gave me seems to be about salt water stuff. I'll
keep y'all posted about how the rainwater turns out.



--
Posted via CichlidFish.com
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sandy, a right schotish name, lol.

as i see it (and im sure we discussed on cichlidfish) fish will ajust to
the water chemestry they are brought up in. any thoughts on this?

i realise that it is hardly ideal, and will yeild strange results during
breeding but if its just a simple case of keeping the fish, then it isnt
that great an issue.

my local water is pretty hard, (by all accounts, never tested it, its
jsut known) and its rerally hard to grow plants in it, but ive kept and
bred many fish, including discus when i was younger and had no idea
about chemstry and things

Craig



--
Posted via CichlidFish.com
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Craig wrote:
sandy, a right schotish name, lol.


As is Craig :)


as i see it (and im sure we discussed on cichlidfish) fish will ajust to
the water chemestry they are brought up in. any thoughts on this?


I haven't tested water in 40+ years of fish keeping.


i realise that it is hardly ideal, and will yeild strange results during
breeding but if its just a simple case of keeping the fish, then it isnt
that great an issue.


Any fish I have kept have bred on there own, I take nothing to do with it
:)


my local water is pretty hard, (by all accounts, never tested it, its
jsut known) and its rerally hard to grow plants in it, but ive kept and
bred many fish, including discus when i was younger and had no idea
about chemstry and things

Craig

Ignorance is usually the best way, then you don't have anything to worry
about other than the fish :)

Keeping the water clean and healthy is better than trying to change what
you have, remember we don't keep fish we keep water, healthy water =
healthy fish, even if they aren't supposed to live in water with the
parameters you have from the tap.

--

Don`t Worry, Be Happy
Sandy
--
E-Mail:-
Website:- http://www.ftscotland.co.uk
Looking for a webhost? Try http://www.1and1.co.uk/?k_id=2966019

here here.

ive once or twice taken a sample of water the local pet store when i was
younger but it seems that any problems can instnatly be fixed by a
really good clean down and a water change ever few days.

ill probley be lynched on the cichlidfish boards now for this (after
preaching to people to get test kits)

but yes, i think that the altering of water params is just another idea
by the pet stores to sell more chemicals.

just my 2 pence

Peace out Craig.

out of interest, what fish do you keep sandy?



--
Posted via CichlidFish.com
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Craig wrote:
here here.



out of interest, what fish do you keep sandy?

ATM. I have 3 Angels, 2 Plecs, 1 Harlequin, 5 Red Eye Tetra, 2 Barbus
schuberti (Golden Barbs) and 1 Rosy Barb.

You can see some pics at the link below.

http://www.ftscotland.co.uk/gallery/...fish-tank.html

--

Don`t Worry, Be Happy
Sandy
--
E-Mail:-
Website:- http://www.ftscotland.co.uk
Looking for a webhost? Try http://www.1and1.co.uk/?k_id=2966019

Where I used to live the pH was between 8 and 9, but very stable.

This was mostly due to "Carbonate hardness"

The secret for me to have happy fish was to forget about the pH reading, and
to concentrate on other aspects of water chemistry (ammonia, nitrate,
nitrate, chlorine, chloramine, DOCs and TDS) that I could influence. (also,
temp and amount of light)

MOST fish will get used to any reasonable pH

Ammonia - from fish waste and rotting food it very toxic - more toxic at
higher temperatures
Nitrate / nitrite, - normal bacterial products from the breakdown of
ammonia. not as toxic as ammonia
The best way to remove these are regular partial water changes and fast
growing live plants.

chlorine / chloramine - these are in "city water" to kill bacteria.
Chlorine will evaporate over time. Chloramine won't.
The best way to remove these are regular partial water changes and good
circulation of your water

DOCs and TDS

Dissolved Organic Compounds are usually fish and bacterial waste products
that have a special chemistry and dissolve in water rather than floating on
the top (like oil) or sinking to the bottom (like indol, a main component of
poop)
The best way to remove these are regular partial water changes and
regular gravel vacuuming.

TDS is Total Dissolved Solutes - I don;t know enough to give intelligent
comment on this
DYAWC (Do Yet Another Water Change) is my first answer to ALMOST ANY
AQUARIUM PROBLEM

You can fight with your pH Best case is to leave it constant rather than
fighting with it.




"Craig" -DONTEMAIL wrote in message
...
sandy, a right schotish name, lol.

as i see it (and im sure we discussed on cichlidfish) fish will ajust to
the water chemestry they are brought up in. any thoughts on this?

i realise that it is hardly ideal, and will yeild strange results during
breeding but if its just a simple case of keeping the fish, then it isnt
that great an issue.

my local water is pretty hard, (by all accounts, never tested it, its
jsut known) and its rerally hard to grow plants in it, but ive kept and
bred many fish, including discus when i was younger and had no idea
about chemstry and things

Craig



--
Posted via CichlidFish.com
http://www.cichlidfish.com/portal/forums