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Ready? New 955g tank
Well I did it. Purchased a used 955g on eBay, I will be driving to St.
Louis this weekend to pick it up. Size: Tank 10'3" long 3'10" wide 3'3" tall Fluidized Bed 6' tall 6" wide (cylinder) Reservoir Bed 7' long 2' wide 2' tall. Pictures and description on ebay at http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...e=STRK:MEWA:IT I really don't have enough room for the 250 Gallon Reservoir Tank/Sump that comes with the tank, and want to compact the sump/filter. 1) I really don't know much about "Fluidized Beds". I have searched google, and found some general discussion but most of the topics were comparing other kinds of filters. I am a picture kind of guy, does anyone have a link to a website with drawings and an actual description of the process? 2) I read that sand is the media of choice for the Fluidized Bed. What kind? Silica, Beach Sand w/quarts? My minnow tanks use crushed lava rock and support thousands of fish in 120 gallons of water. Might this make a good filter material? 3) NetMax, will the Reservoir Bed described here work for your idea of an undergravel space to suck up the detritus? (Continuous Gravel Filter) 4) What will I need for a pump to circulate & operate this filter? I read one article that used a 100 gph pump but that seems way to small, I was thinking about 1000 to 1200 gph, am I headed in the right direction? 5) I read that fluidized beds deplete the oxygen in the water, will I have to circulate the water and use spray bars at the top to keep the surface moving? Will this be enough or will I need to add an air pump and a LARGE airstone? 6) This is a game fish aquarium, so the fish are used to a wide variety of water temps. In the winter I can keep the water temp in a 120g tank around 66 to 68 degrees, but in the summer the temp rises to the HIGH 70's. Will 1000g react the same? I know it will take longer to heat up, but any idea if I will need a chiller for this tank? 7) 10,000# of tank, gravel and water. Stands? Concrete Blocks? Lumber? How will I need to support this tank? 8) Using the gravel and filter media from the old 120g tank, how long do you think it will take to cycle this much water? More questions later THANKS for your input. JOhn |
Congrats on that monster tank. Wow. I don't have a clue on most of your
questions except perhaps the temps. I think you can expect pretty much the same as a smaller tank in the same conditions. The water will just heat and cool slower. Bill "John " wrote in message ... Well I did it. Purchased a used 955g on eBay, I will be driving to St. Louis this weekend to pick it up. Size: Tank 10'3" long 3'10" wide 3'3" tall Fluidized Bed 6' tall 6" wide (cylinder) Reservoir Bed 7' long 2' wide 2' tall. Pictures and description on ebay at http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...e=STRK:MEWA:IT I really don't have enough room for the 250 Gallon Reservoir Tank/Sump that comes with the tank, and want to compact the sump/filter. 1) I really don't know much about "Fluidized Beds". I have searched google, and found some general discussion but most of the topics were comparing other kinds of filters. I am a picture kind of guy, does anyone have a link to a website with drawings and an actual description of the process? 2) I read that sand is the media of choice for the Fluidized Bed. What kind? Silica, Beach Sand w/quarts? My minnow tanks use crushed lava rock and support thousands of fish in 120 gallons of water. Might this make a good filter material? 3) NetMax, will the Reservoir Bed described here work for your idea of an undergravel space to suck up the detritus? (Continuous Gravel Filter) 4) What will I need for a pump to circulate & operate this filter? I read one article that used a 100 gph pump but that seems way to small, I was thinking about 1000 to 1200 gph, am I headed in the right direction? 5) I read that fluidized beds deplete the oxygen in the water, will I have to circulate the water and use spray bars at the top to keep the surface moving? Will this be enough or will I need to add an air pump and a LARGE airstone? 6) This is a game fish aquarium, so the fish are used to a wide variety of water temps. In the winter I can keep the water temp in a 120g tank around 66 to 68 degrees, but in the summer the temp rises to the HIGH 70's. Will 1000g react the same? I know it will take longer to heat up, but any idea if I will need a chiller for this tank? 7) 10,000# of tank, gravel and water. Stands? Concrete Blocks? Lumber? How will I need to support this tank? 8) Using the gravel and filter media from the old 120g tank, how long do you think it will take to cycle this much water? More questions later THANKS for your input. JOhn |
http://honors.montana.edu/~weif/firs...luidized.phtml
http://www.aquarticles.com/articles/...d_Filters.html Here are a couple of good sites explaining the FBF & how it works. It is basically a SUPER biological filter. It uses grains of sand to provide a space for the beneficial bacteria to grow on. The surface area provided by millions of individual grains of media in constant suspension, allows virtually complete nitrification in one pass. -- Craig ________________________________ www.CanadianCray.tk www.Bluecrayfish.com "John " wrote in message ... Well I did it. Purchased a used 955g on eBay, I will be driving to St. Louis this weekend to pick it up. Size: Tank 10'3" long 3'10" wide 3'3" tall Fluidized Bed 6' tall 6" wide (cylinder) Reservoir Bed 7' long 2' wide 2' tall. Pictures and description on ebay at http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...e=STRK:MEWA:IT I really don't have enough room for the 250 Gallon Reservoir Tank/Sump that comes with the tank, and want to compact the sump/filter. 1) I really don't know much about "Fluidized Beds". I have searched google, and found some general discussion but most of the topics were comparing other kinds of filters. I am a picture kind of guy, does anyone have a link to a website with drawings and an actual description of the process? 2) I read that sand is the media of choice for the Fluidized Bed. What kind? Silica, Beach Sand w/quarts? My minnow tanks use crushed lava rock and support thousands of fish in 120 gallons of water. Might this make a good filter material? 3) NetMax, will the Reservoir Bed described here work for your idea of an undergravel space to suck up the detritus? (Continuous Gravel Filter) 4) What will I need for a pump to circulate & operate this filter? I read one article that used a 100 gph pump but that seems way to small, I was thinking about 1000 to 1200 gph, am I headed in the right direction? 5) I read that fluidized beds deplete the oxygen in the water, will I have to circulate the water and use spray bars at the top to keep the surface moving? Will this be enough or will I need to add an air pump and a LARGE airstone? 6) This is a game fish aquarium, so the fish are used to a wide variety of water temps. In the winter I can keep the water temp in a 120g tank around 66 to 68 degrees, but in the summer the temp rises to the HIGH 70's. Will 1000g react the same? I know it will take longer to heat up, but any idea if I will need a chiller for this tank? 7) 10,000# of tank, gravel and water. Stands? Concrete Blocks? Lumber? How will I need to support this tank? 8) Using the gravel and filter media from the old 120g tank, how long do you think it will take to cycle this much water? More questions later THANKS for your input. JOhn |
"John " wrote in
message ... Well I did it. Purchased a used 955g on eBay, I will be driving to St. Louis this weekend to pick it up. Size: Tank 10'3" long 3'10" wide 3'3" tall Fluidized Bed 6' tall 6" wide (cylinder) Reservoir Bed 7' long 2' wide 2' tall. Pictures and description on ebay at http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...e=STRK:MEWA:IT Interesting that the ad says 995g, but the dimensions yield 955g and the actual water capacity after the thickness is 875g (if filled to the top) - but that's still one tank of a tank ;~). If you ever need to medicate or do any calculations, I would use 850g (accounting for the substrate and rock work) and add the sump capacity if being used. I really don't have enough room for the 250 Gallon Reservoir Tank/Sump that comes with the tank, and want to compact the sump/filter. 1) I really don't know much about "Fluidized Beds". I have searched google, and found some general discussion but most of the topics were comparing other kinds of filters. I am a picture kind of guy, does anyone have a link to a website with drawings and an actual description of the process? Water is pumped up through the tube, and the sand grains lift up to allow the water to go through. The end result is that there is a tiny gap between most of the grains of sand allowing the water to pass between them. You can modify it in a number of ways, keeping a few principles in mind i) that the tube should be relatively narrow (relative to flow, so you don't have dead spots in the sand becoming compressed and anaerobic), ii) the flow is not so great to cause sand to significantly exit the tube, iii) the flow must be even and uninterrupted, and iv) do not let it get choked with any debris (must be at the output of a mechanical filter). The surface area of the sand grains becomes coated in bacteria, so you have a tremendous biological capacity in a FBF. 2) I read that sand is the media of choice for the Fluidized Bed. What kind? Silica, Beach Sand w/quarts? My minnow tanks use crushed lava rock and support thousands of fish in 120 gallons of water. Might this make a good filter material? I don't think an FBF is an FBF unless you use sand. The water causes the sand bed to become 'fluid' hence the name. Substituting other media just makes it into a regular biological filter. 3) NetMax, will the Reservoir Bed described here work for your idea of an undergravel space to suck up the detritus? (Continuous Gravel Filter) I don't think so. Their reservoir bed appears to be a sump. 4) What will I need for a pump to circulate & operate this filter? I read one article that used a 100 gph pump but that seems way to small, I was thinking about 1000 to 1200 gph, am I headed in the right direction? It's going to depend on your fishload, but 1000 to 2000 gph is the ballpark. Game fish are more carniverous, so with the extra food given you will need more than the usual filtration. The FBF does the biological, but you will need serious mechanical filtration and a good flow to pick up their waste. 5) I read that fluidized beds deplete the oxygen in the water, will I have to circulate the water and use spray bars at the top to keep the surface moving? Will this be enough or will I need to add an air pump and a LARGE airstone? With cool water, your O2 levels will be higher to start with. I would speculate that the O2 use would entirely depend on fish-load and the quantity of fish food you are using, so I think you should be able to adjust this as you go along. 6) This is a game fish aquarium, so the fish are used to a wide variety of water temps. In the winter I can keep the water temp in a 120g tank around 66 to 68 degrees, but in the summer the temp rises to the HIGH 70's. Will 1000g react the same? I know it will take longer to heat up, but any idea if I will need a chiller for this tank? I suspect that on a daily basis, you will not see this tank change temperature significantly. It will settle on the average temperature (per 24 hours) with a significant lag time spread over a few days (especially if you insulate unseen sides). I hope you don't need a chiller, and if you do, design it for your application, so if all you need is something for a few weeks, there are other ways (ie: stainless steel lines and a circulating pump between a coil in your sump and your meat freezer ;~). 7) 10,000# of tank, gravel and water. Stands? Concrete Blocks? Lumber? How will I need to support this tank? Beer cases, start drinking. Seriously, tank weight (750lbs?) plus 875g x 8.75lbs/gal (7,665) plus rockwork (250lbs) = 3.9 tons. Stands are easy, make sure the floor will take it. Personally I would not use concrete or cinder blocks as they can crumble too easily if the weight is poorly distributed. Lumber works fine, making several box frames (ie:4x4) and fastening them together, and then a layer of plywood and expanded polystyrene on top. I would get quotes on a welded steel frame stand. Not pretty (add some wood, aluminium or stainless steel sides), but they leave a lot of usable space underneath. Holding it up is not really the problem, it's holding it up uniformly that's the challenge. You want the 10' length evenly supported (so if using beer cases, make sure the bottles are all the same size ;~). 8) Using the gravel and filter media from the old 120g tank, how long do you think it will take to cycle this much water? If the fish load of the new tank is the same as the 120g (ie: you moved the fish over), then the cycle might not be of any significance. I'd do test measurements for a few days while feeding a little less. More questions later THANKS for your input. JOhn No problem John, lots of us have tanks that size (NOT) and we would be glad to share our experience. For reference though, the only comparably sized tank I've worked on is here http://www.2cah.com/netmax/about/mytanks/POND2.jpg at around 800g, and it used a pool pump and pool sand filter. The waterfall added lots of O2. hint: Peek into the pond newsgroup. They have lots of experience with that size. Just don't ask them about lighting, or they'll catch on that your tank is not a pond ;~). Seriously though, a lot of pond folks do overwinter their Koi in basement tanks which are in the 700-2000g range, so some really do have experience & advice on temperature stability, pumps, filter media in bulk, food in bulk etc. ps: I am sooooo jealous. -- www.NetMax.tk |
I calculated it to be even smaller. I got 121"L X 44"W X 37.25"H interior
dimensions. Taking into account 1" thick on sides & bottom & 3/4" thick on lid. I calculated tank dimensions to be this. Your aquarium can hold gallons of Water. If we assume the water level in your aquarium is 1 inch below the top then the total gallons would be . This however doesn't take into account sump & FBF. -- Craig ________________________________ www.CanadianCray.tk www.Bluecrayfish.com "NetMax" wrote in message ... "John " wrote in message ... Well I did it. Purchased a used 955g on eBay, I will be driving to St. Louis this weekend to pick it up. Size: Tank 10'3" long 3'10" wide 3'3" tall Fluidized Bed 6' tall 6" wide (cylinder) Reservoir Bed 7' long 2' wide 2' tall. Pictures and description on ebay at http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...e=STRK:MEWA:IT Interesting that the ad says 995g, but the dimensions yield 955g and the actual water capacity after the thickness is 875g (if filled to the top) - but that's still one tank of a tank ;~). If you ever need to medicate or do any calculations, I would use 850g (accounting for the substrate and rock work) and add the sump capacity if being used. I really don't have enough room for the 250 Gallon Reservoir Tank/Sump that comes with the tank, and want to compact the sump/filter. 1) I really don't know much about "Fluidized Beds". I have searched google, and found some general discussion but most of the topics were comparing other kinds of filters. I am a picture kind of guy, does anyone have a link to a website with drawings and an actual description of the process? Water is pumped up through the tube, and the sand grains lift up to allow the water to go through. The end result is that there is a tiny gap between most of the grains of sand allowing the water to pass between them. You can modify it in a number of ways, keeping a few principles in mind i) that the tube should be relatively narrow (relative to flow, so you don't have dead spots in the sand becoming compressed and anaerobic), ii) the flow is not so great to cause sand to significantly exit the tube, iii) the flow must be even and uninterrupted, and iv) do not let it get choked with any debris (must be at the output of a mechanical filter). The surface area of the sand grains becomes coated in bacteria, so you have a tremendous biological capacity in a FBF. 2) I read that sand is the media of choice for the Fluidized Bed. What kind? Silica, Beach Sand w/quarts? My minnow tanks use crushed lava rock and support thousands of fish in 120 gallons of water. Might this make a good filter material? I don't think an FBF is an FBF unless you use sand. The water causes the sand bed to become 'fluid' hence the name. Substituting other media just makes it into a regular biological filter. 3) NetMax, will the Reservoir Bed described here work for your idea of an undergravel space to suck up the detritus? (Continuous Gravel Filter) I don't think so. Their reservoir bed appears to be a sump. 4) What will I need for a pump to circulate & operate this filter? I read one article that used a 100 gph pump but that seems way to small, I was thinking about 1000 to 1200 gph, am I headed in the right direction? It's going to depend on your fishload, but 1000 to 2000 gph is the ballpark. Game fish are more carniverous, so with the extra food given you will need more than the usual filtration. The FBF does the biological, but you will need serious mechanical filtration and a good flow to pick up their waste. 5) I read that fluidized beds deplete the oxygen in the water, will I have to circulate the water and use spray bars at the top to keep the surface moving? Will this be enough or will I need to add an air pump and a LARGE airstone? With cool water, your O2 levels will be higher to start with. I would speculate that the O2 use would entirely depend on fish-load and the quantity of fish food you are using, so I think you should be able to adjust this as you go along. 6) This is a game fish aquarium, so the fish are used to a wide variety of water temps. In the winter I can keep the water temp in a 120g tank around 66 to 68 degrees, but in the summer the temp rises to the HIGH 70's. Will 1000g react the same? I know it will take longer to heat up, but any idea if I will need a chiller for this tank? I suspect that on a daily basis, you will not see this tank change temperature significantly. It will settle on the average temperature (per 24 hours) with a significant lag time spread over a few days (especially if you insulate unseen sides). I hope you don't need a chiller, and if you do, design it for your application, so if all you need is something for a few weeks, there are other ways (ie: stainless steel lines and a circulating pump between a coil in your sump and your meat freezer ;~). 7) 10,000# of tank, gravel and water. Stands? Concrete Blocks? Lumber? How will I need to support this tank? Beer cases, start drinking. Seriously, tank weight (750lbs?) plus 875g x 8.75lbs/gal (7,665) plus rockwork (250lbs) = 3.9 tons. Stands are easy, make sure the floor will take it. Personally I would not use concrete or cinder blocks as they can crumble too easily if the weight is poorly distributed. Lumber works fine, making several box frames (ie:4x4) and fastening them together, and then a layer of plywood and expanded polystyrene on top. I would get quotes on a welded steel frame stand. Not pretty (add some wood, aluminium or stainless steel sides), but they leave a lot of usable space underneath. Holding it up is not really the problem, it's holding it up uniformly that's the challenge. You want the 10' length evenly supported (so if using beer cases, make sure the bottles are all the same size ;~). 8) Using the gravel and filter media from the old 120g tank, how long do you think it will take to cycle this much water? If the fish load of the new tank is the same as the 120g (ie: you moved the fish over), then the cycle might not be of any significance. I'd do test measurements for a few days while feeding a little less. More questions later THANKS for your input. JOhn No problem John, lots of us have tanks that size (NOT) and we would be glad to share our experience. For reference though, the only comparably sized tank I've worked on is here http://www.2cah.com/netmax/about/mytanks/POND2.jpg at around 800g, and it used a pool pump and pool sand filter. The waterfall added lots of O2. hint: Peek into the pond newsgroup. They have lots of experience with that size. Just don't ask them about lighting, or they'll catch on that your tank is not a pond ;~). Seriously though, a lot of pond folks do overwinter their Koi in basement tanks which are in the 700-2000g range, so some really do have experience & advice on temperature stability, pumps, filter media in bulk, food in bulk etc. ps: I am sooooo jealous. -- www.NetMax.tk |
Lets try that again....
I calculated it to be even smaller. I got 121"L X 44"W X 37.25"H interior dimensions. Taking into account 1" thick on sides & bottom & 3/4" thick on lid. I calculated tank dimensions to be this. Your aquarium can hold 858.52 gallons of Water. If we assume the water level in your aquarium is 1 inch below the top then the total gallons would be 809.74. This however doesn't take into account sump & FBF. -- Craig ________________________________ www.CanadianCray.tk www.Bluecrayfish.com "CanadianCray" wrote in message ... I calculated it to be even smaller. I got 121"L X 44"W X 37.25"H interior dimensions. Taking into account 1" thick on sides & bottom & 3/4" thick on lid. I calculated tank dimensions to be this. Your aquarium can hold gallons of Water. If we assume the water level in your aquarium is 1 inch below the top then the total gallons would be . This however doesn't take into account sump & FBF. -- Craig ________________________________ www.CanadianCray.tk www.Bluecrayfish.com "NetMax" wrote in message ... "John " wrote in message ... Well I did it. Purchased a used 955g on eBay, I will be driving to St. Louis this weekend to pick it up. Size: Tank 10'3" long 3'10" wide 3'3" tall Fluidized Bed 6' tall 6" wide (cylinder) Reservoir Bed 7' long 2' wide 2' tall. Pictures and description on ebay at http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...e=STRK:MEWA:IT Interesting that the ad says 995g, but the dimensions yield 955g and the actual water capacity after the thickness is 875g (if filled to the top) - but that's still one tank of a tank ;~). If you ever need to medicate or do any calculations, I would use 850g (accounting for the substrate and rock work) and add the sump capacity if being used. I really don't have enough room for the 250 Gallon Reservoir Tank/Sump that comes with the tank, and want to compact the sump/filter. 1) I really don't know much about "Fluidized Beds". I have searched google, and found some general discussion but most of the topics were comparing other kinds of filters. I am a picture kind of guy, does anyone have a link to a website with drawings and an actual description of the process? Water is pumped up through the tube, and the sand grains lift up to allow the water to go through. The end result is that there is a tiny gap between most of the grains of sand allowing the water to pass between them. You can modify it in a number of ways, keeping a few principles in mind i) that the tube should be relatively narrow (relative to flow, so you don't have dead spots in the sand becoming compressed and anaerobic), ii) the flow is not so great to cause sand to significantly exit the tube, iii) the flow must be even and uninterrupted, and iv) do not let it get choked with any debris (must be at the output of a mechanical filter). The surface area of the sand grains becomes coated in bacteria, so you have a tremendous biological capacity in a FBF. 2) I read that sand is the media of choice for the Fluidized Bed. What kind? Silica, Beach Sand w/quarts? My minnow tanks use crushed lava rock and support thousands of fish in 120 gallons of water. Might this make a good filter material? I don't think an FBF is an FBF unless you use sand. The water causes the sand bed to become 'fluid' hence the name. Substituting other media just makes it into a regular biological filter. 3) NetMax, will the Reservoir Bed described here work for your idea of an undergravel space to suck up the detritus? (Continuous Gravel Filter) I don't think so. Their reservoir bed appears to be a sump. 4) What will I need for a pump to circulate & operate this filter? I read one article that used a 100 gph pump but that seems way to small, I was thinking about 1000 to 1200 gph, am I headed in the right direction? It's going to depend on your fishload, but 1000 to 2000 gph is the ballpark. Game fish are more carniverous, so with the extra food given you will need more than the usual filtration. The FBF does the biological, but you will need serious mechanical filtration and a good flow to pick up their waste. 5) I read that fluidized beds deplete the oxygen in the water, will I have to circulate the water and use spray bars at the top to keep the surface moving? Will this be enough or will I need to add an air pump and a LARGE airstone? With cool water, your O2 levels will be higher to start with. I would speculate that the O2 use would entirely depend on fish-load and the quantity of fish food you are using, so I think you should be able to adjust this as you go along. 6) This is a game fish aquarium, so the fish are used to a wide variety of water temps. In the winter I can keep the water temp in a 120g tank around 66 to 68 degrees, but in the summer the temp rises to the HIGH 70's. Will 1000g react the same? I know it will take longer to heat up, but any idea if I will need a chiller for this tank? I suspect that on a daily basis, you will not see this tank change temperature significantly. It will settle on the average temperature (per 24 hours) with a significant lag time spread over a few days (especially if you insulate unseen sides). I hope you don't need a chiller, and if you do, design it for your application, so if all you need is something for a few weeks, there are other ways (ie: stainless steel lines and a circulating pump between a coil in your sump and your meat freezer ;~). 7) 10,000# of tank, gravel and water. Stands? Concrete Blocks? Lumber? How will I need to support this tank? Beer cases, start drinking. Seriously, tank weight (750lbs?) plus 875g x 8.75lbs/gal (7,665) plus rockwork (250lbs) = 3.9 tons. Stands are easy, make sure the floor will take it. Personally I would not use concrete or cinder blocks as they can crumble too easily if the weight is poorly distributed. Lumber works fine, making several box frames (ie:4x4) and fastening them together, and then a layer of plywood and expanded polystyrene on top. I would get quotes on a welded steel frame stand. Not pretty (add some wood, aluminium or stainless steel sides), but they leave a lot of usable space underneath. Holding it up is not really the problem, it's holding it up uniformly that's the challenge. You want the 10' length evenly supported (so if using beer cases, make sure the bottles are all the same size ;~). 8) Using the gravel and filter media from the old 120g tank, how long do you think it will take to cycle this much water? If the fish load of the new tank is the same as the 120g (ie: you moved the fish over), then the cycle might not be of any significance. I'd do test measurements for a few days while feeding a little less. More questions later THANKS for your input. JOhn No problem John, lots of us have tanks that size (NOT) and we would be glad to share our experience. For reference though, the only comparably sized tank I've worked on is here http://www.2cah.com/netmax/about/mytanks/POND2.jpg at around 800g, and it used a pool pump and pool sand filter. The waterfall added lots of O2. hint: Peek into the pond newsgroup. They have lots of experience with that size. Just don't ask them about lighting, or they'll catch on that your tank is not a pond ;~). Seriously though, a lot of pond folks do overwinter their Koi in basement tanks which are in the 700-2000g range, so some really do have experience & advice on temperature stability, pumps, filter media in bulk, food in bulk etc. ps: I am sooooo jealous. -- www.NetMax.tk |
Oh yeah here is some more generic info.
LIGHTING You will need 1710.0 watts of lighting for plants with low light requirements, 2575.5 watts for Plants with medium light requirements and 3434.0 watts for plants with high light requirements. Heater You are going to need a heater (s) with a total capacity of 4292.6watts (Double this if you are in a cold room or basement. Filtering You will need a filter with a flow capacity between 3434.0 and 6009.6 gallons per hour. It will also have a maximum water weight of 7357.54 LBS. -- Craig ________________________________ www.CanadianCray.tk www.Bluecrayfish.com "CanadianCray" wrote in message ... I calculated it to be even smaller. I got 121"L X 44"W X 37.25"H interior dimensions. Taking into account 1" thick on sides & bottom & 3/4" thick on lid. I calculated tank dimensions to be this. Your aquarium can hold gallons of Water. If we assume the water level in your aquarium is 1 inch below the top then the total gallons would be . This however doesn't take into account sump & FBF. -- Craig ________________________________ www.CanadianCray.tk www.Bluecrayfish.com "NetMax" wrote in message ... "John " wrote in message ... Well I did it. Purchased a used 955g on eBay, I will be driving to St. Louis this weekend to pick it up. Size: Tank 10'3" long 3'10" wide 3'3" tall Fluidized Bed 6' tall 6" wide (cylinder) Reservoir Bed 7' long 2' wide 2' tall. Pictures and description on ebay at http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...e=STRK:MEWA:IT Interesting that the ad says 995g, but the dimensions yield 955g and the actual water capacity after the thickness is 875g (if filled to the top) - but that's still one tank of a tank ;~). If you ever need to medicate or do any calculations, I would use 850g (accounting for the substrate and rock work) and add the sump capacity if being used. I really don't have enough room for the 250 Gallon Reservoir Tank/Sump that comes with the tank, and want to compact the sump/filter. 1) I really don't know much about "Fluidized Beds". I have searched google, and found some general discussion but most of the topics were comparing other kinds of filters. I am a picture kind of guy, does anyone have a link to a website with drawings and an actual description of the process? Water is pumped up through the tube, and the sand grains lift up to allow the water to go through. The end result is that there is a tiny gap between most of the grains of sand allowing the water to pass between them. You can modify it in a number of ways, keeping a few principles in mind i) that the tube should be relatively narrow (relative to flow, so you don't have dead spots in the sand becoming compressed and anaerobic), ii) the flow is not so great to cause sand to significantly exit the tube, iii) the flow must be even and uninterrupted, and iv) do not let it get choked with any debris (must be at the output of a mechanical filter). The surface area of the sand grains becomes coated in bacteria, so you have a tremendous biological capacity in a FBF. 2) I read that sand is the media of choice for the Fluidized Bed. What kind? Silica, Beach Sand w/quarts? My minnow tanks use crushed lava rock and support thousands of fish in 120 gallons of water. Might this make a good filter material? I don't think an FBF is an FBF unless you use sand. The water causes the sand bed to become 'fluid' hence the name. Substituting other media just makes it into a regular biological filter. 3) NetMax, will the Reservoir Bed described here work for your idea of an undergravel space to suck up the detritus? (Continuous Gravel Filter) I don't think so. Their reservoir bed appears to be a sump. 4) What will I need for a pump to circulate & operate this filter? I read one article that used a 100 gph pump but that seems way to small, I was thinking about 1000 to 1200 gph, am I headed in the right direction? It's going to depend on your fishload, but 1000 to 2000 gph is the ballpark. Game fish are more carniverous, so with the extra food given you will need more than the usual filtration. The FBF does the biological, but you will need serious mechanical filtration and a good flow to pick up their waste. 5) I read that fluidized beds deplete the oxygen in the water, will I have to circulate the water and use spray bars at the top to keep the surface moving? Will this be enough or will I need to add an air pump and a LARGE airstone? With cool water, your O2 levels will be higher to start with. I would speculate that the O2 use would entirely depend on fish-load and the quantity of fish food you are using, so I think you should be able to adjust this as you go along. 6) This is a game fish aquarium, so the fish are used to a wide variety of water temps. In the winter I can keep the water temp in a 120g tank around 66 to 68 degrees, but in the summer the temp rises to the HIGH 70's. Will 1000g react the same? I know it will take longer to heat up, but any idea if I will need a chiller for this tank? I suspect that on a daily basis, you will not see this tank change temperature significantly. It will settle on the average temperature (per 24 hours) with a significant lag time spread over a few days (especially if you insulate unseen sides). I hope you don't need a chiller, and if you do, design it for your application, so if all you need is something for a few weeks, there are other ways (ie: stainless steel lines and a circulating pump between a coil in your sump and your meat freezer ;~). 7) 10,000# of tank, gravel and water. Stands? Concrete Blocks? Lumber? How will I need to support this tank? Beer cases, start drinking. Seriously, tank weight (750lbs?) plus 875g x 8.75lbs/gal (7,665) plus rockwork (250lbs) = 3.9 tons. Stands are easy, make sure the floor will take it. Personally I would not use concrete or cinder blocks as they can crumble too easily if the weight is poorly distributed. Lumber works fine, making several box frames (ie:4x4) and fastening them together, and then a layer of plywood and expanded polystyrene on top. I would get quotes on a welded steel frame stand. Not pretty (add some wood, aluminium or stainless steel sides), but they leave a lot of usable space underneath. Holding it up is not really the problem, it's holding it up uniformly that's the challenge. You want the 10' length evenly supported (so if using beer cases, make sure the bottles are all the same size ;~). 8) Using the gravel and filter media from the old 120g tank, how long do you think it will take to cycle this much water? If the fish load of the new tank is the same as the 120g (ie: you moved the fish over), then the cycle might not be of any significance. I'd do test measurements for a few days while feeding a little less. More questions later THANKS for your input. JOhn No problem John, lots of us have tanks that size (NOT) and we would be glad to share our experience. For reference though, the only comparably sized tank I've worked on is here http://www.2cah.com/netmax/about/mytanks/POND2.jpg at around 800g, and it used a pool pump and pool sand filter. The waterfall added lots of O2. hint: Peek into the pond newsgroup. They have lots of experience with that size. Just don't ask them about lighting, or they'll catch on that your tank is not a pond ;~). Seriously though, a lot of pond folks do overwinter their Koi in basement tanks which are in the 700-2000g range, so some really do have experience & advice on temperature stability, pumps, filter media in bulk, food in bulk etc. ps: I am sooooo jealous. -- www.NetMax.tk |
"John " wrote in message ... I'm speechless. I hate you. g Pics, man, pics. Every step of the way if possible. :) |
no, you cannot go by the wpg rule with a tank this size. The amount of
light you suggest would burn plants to a crisp ;op -- Margolis http://web.archive.org/web/200302152...qs/AGQ2FAQ.htm http://www.unrealtower.org/faq |
"NetMax" wrote in message ... | much more details though, I'm no expert. | -- I daresay most of us would challenge that statement.....g |
I put 121X44X37.25 into 3 different online calculators & came up with them
same numbers exactly. http://pw2.netcom.com/~ddougal/AquaV...%2FRectangular http://www.drhelm.com/aquarium/areajava.html -- Craig ________________________________ www.CanadianCray.tk www.Bluecrayfish.com "NetMax" wrote in message ... How are you doing the calculation (or are you plugging it into someone's calculator)? I hope I didn't make a mistake. The tank exterior dimensions a 10'3" long 3'10" wide 3'3" tall I convert that to inches and divide the numerator (multiple the length, width & height) by 231 (for US gallons), to give me the tank's reference size. That's 123x46x39/231= 955g For the inside measurement, I subtracted the thickness off of the sides, length and bottom: 121x44x38= 875g You caught the top (121x44x37.25), so another 3/4" = 864g Drop the water an inch and (121x44x36.25) and you have 841g. I can't seem to get 809g. Did you compensate for something else I missed? Regarding heating, filtration, lighting and fishload, the common guidelines are not linear and don't extrapolate well beyond certain tank sizes. They vary in how quickly they become irrelevant, but I think all of them are quite questionable by the time you hit 250g. For example, heat loss is linear to the ratio of surface (sides, top & bottom) to water, and as a tank gets bigger, this surface/volume ratio decreases, so you need less watts to maintain a given difference in temperature. In lighting, the guidelines typically consider the 12 to 24" range of depths, not the 39" depth of this puppy, so the attenuation, type of lights and substrate colour are factors which increase in importance when designing lighting for big tanks. Don't ask me for too much more details though, I'm no expert. -- www.NetMax.tk "CanadianCray" wrote in message ... Lets try that again.... I calculated it to be even smaller. I got 121"L X 44"W X 37.25"H interior dimensions. Taking into account 1" thick on sides & bottom & 3/4" thick on lid. I calculated tank dimensions to be this. Your aquarium can hold 858.52 gallons of Water. If we assume the water level in your aquarium is 1 inch below the top then the total gallons would be 809.74. This however doesn't take into account sump & FBF. -- Craig ________________________________ www.CanadianCray.tk www.Bluecrayfish.com "CanadianCray" wrote in message ... I calculated it to be even smaller. I got 121"L X 44"W X 37.25"H interior dimensions. Taking into account 1" thick on sides & bottom & 3/4" thick on lid. I calculated tank dimensions to be this. Your aquarium can hold gallons of Water. If we assume the water level in your aquarium is 1 inch below the top then the total gallons would be . This however doesn't take into account sump & FBF. -- Craig ________________________________ www.CanadianCray.tk www.Bluecrayfish.com "NetMax" wrote in message ... "John " wrote in message ... Well I did it. Purchased a used 955g on eBay, I will be driving to St. Louis this weekend to pick it up. Size: Tank 10'3" long 3'10" wide 3'3" tall Fluidized Bed 6' tall 6" wide (cylinder) Reservoir Bed 7' long 2' wide 2' tall. Pictures and description on ebay at http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...e=STRK:MEWA:IT Interesting that the ad says 995g, but the dimensions yield 955g and the actual water capacity after the thickness is 875g (if filled to the top) - but that's still one tank of a tank ;~). If you ever need to medicate or do any calculations, I would use 850g (accounting for the substrate and rock work) and add the sump capacity if being used. I really don't have enough room for the 250 Gallon Reservoir Tank/Sump that comes with the tank, and want to compact the sump/filter. 1) I really don't know much about "Fluidized Beds". I have searched google, and found some general discussion but most of the topics were comparing other kinds of filters. I am a picture kind of guy, does anyone have a link to a website with drawings and an actual description of the process? Water is pumped up through the tube, and the sand grains lift up to allow the water to go through. The end result is that there is a tiny gap between most of the grains of sand allowing the water to pass between them. You can modify it in a number of ways, keeping a few principles in mind i) that the tube should be relatively narrow (relative to flow, so you don't have dead spots in the sand becoming compressed and anaerobic), ii) the flow is not so great to cause sand to significantly exit the tube, iii) the flow must be even and uninterrupted, and iv) do not let it get choked with any debris (must be at the output of a mechanical filter). The surface area of the sand grains becomes coated in bacteria, so you have a tremendous biological capacity in a FBF. 2) I read that sand is the media of choice for the Fluidized Bed. What kind? Silica, Beach Sand w/quarts? My minnow tanks use crushed lava rock and support thousands of fish in 120 gallons of water. Might this make a good filter material? I don't think an FBF is an FBF unless you use sand. The water causes the sand bed to become 'fluid' hence the name. Substituting other media just makes it into a regular biological filter. 3) NetMax, will the Reservoir Bed described here work for your idea of an undergravel space to suck up the detritus? (Continuous Gravel Filter) I don't think so. Their reservoir bed appears to be a sump. 4) What will I need for a pump to circulate & operate this filter? I read one article that used a 100 gph pump but that seems way to small, I was thinking about 1000 to 1200 gph, am I headed in the right direction? It's going to depend on your fishload, but 1000 to 2000 gph is the ballpark. Game fish are more carniverous, so with the extra food given you will need more than the usual filtration. The FBF does the biological, but you will need serious mechanical filtration and a good flow to pick up their waste. 5) I read that fluidized beds deplete the oxygen in the water, will I have to circulate the water and use spray bars at the top to keep the surface moving? Will this be enough or will I need to add an air pump and a LARGE airstone? With cool water, your O2 levels will be higher to start with. I would speculate that the O2 use would entirely depend on fish-load and the quantity of fish food you are using, so I think you should be able to adjust this as you go along. 6) This is a game fish aquarium, so the fish are used to a wide variety of water temps. In the winter I can keep the water temp in a 120g tank around 66 to 68 degrees, but in the summer the temp rises to the HIGH 70's. Will 1000g react the same? I know it will take longer to heat up, but any idea if I will need a chiller for this tank? I suspect that on a daily basis, you will not see this tank change temperature significantly. It will settle on the average temperature (per 24 hours) with a significant lag time spread over a few days (especially if you insulate unseen sides). I hope you don't need a chiller, and if you do, design it for your application, so if all you need is something for a few weeks, there are other ways (ie: stainless steel lines and a circulating pump between a coil in your sump and your meat freezer ;~). 7) 10,000# of tank, gravel and water. Stands? Concrete Blocks? Lumber? How will I need to support this tank? Beer cases, start drinking. Seriously, tank weight (750lbs?) plus 875g x 8.75lbs/gal (7,665) plus rockwork (250lbs) = 3.9 tons. Stands are easy, make sure the floor will take it. Personally I would not use concrete or cinder blocks as they can crumble too easily if the weight is poorly distributed. Lumber works fine, making several box frames (ie:4x4) and fastening them together, and then a layer of plywood and expanded polystyrene on top. I would get quotes on a welded steel frame stand. Not pretty (add some wood, aluminium or stainless steel sides), but they leave a lot of usable space underneath. Holding it up is not really the problem, it's holding it up uniformly that's the challenge. You want the 10' length evenly supported (so if using beer cases, make sure the bottles are all the same size ;~). 8) Using the gravel and filter media from the old 120g tank, how long do you think it will take to cycle this much water? If the fish load of the new tank is the same as the 120g (ie: you moved the fish over), then the cycle might not be of any significance. I'd do test measurements for a few days while feeding a little less. More questions later THANKS for your input. JOhn No problem John, lots of us have tanks that size (NOT) and we would be glad to share our experience. For reference though, the only comparably sized tank I've worked on is here http://www.2cah.com/netmax/about/mytanks/POND2.jpg at around 800g, and it used a pool pump and pool sand filter. The waterfall added lots of O2. hint: Peek into the pond newsgroup. They have lots of experience with that size. Just don't ask them about lighting, or they'll catch on that your tank is not a pond ;~). Seriously though, a lot of pond folks do overwinter their Koi in basement tanks which are in the 700-2000g range, so some really do have experience & advice on temperature stability, pumps, filter media in bulk, food in bulk etc. ps: I am sooooo jealous. -- www.NetMax.tk |
I will do pictures every step. Keep an eye on
http://www.noahs-marine.com/aquarium/ Currently there are pics of my existing 120g. These were from last year so the Tiger Muskie is about 20% larger (currently about 28" long) and the Bluegills are about 10% larger. JOhn "Billy" wrote in message ... "John " wrote in message ... I'm speechless. I hate you. g Pics, man, pics. Every step of the way if possible. :) |
I haven't a clue, but I would think a better calculation would be based on
the depth of the water. I know that it will not be enough, but I will start with TWO - 2 Lamp 8' Industrial HO Light fixtures, Bulbs about 110 - 120 Watts each and see where it goes from there. I have my eye on a couple of Orbit 60" PC Moonlight fixtures but about $300 US each, I need to start somewhere. JOhn "CanadianCray" wrote in message ... Oh yeah here is some more generic info. LIGHTING You will need 1710.0 watts of lighting for plants with low light requirements, 2575.5 watts for Plants with medium light requirements and 3434.0 watts for plants with high light requirements. Heater You are going to need a heater (s) with a total capacity of 4292.6watts (Double this if you are in a cold room or basement. Filtering You will need a filter with a flow capacity between 3434.0 and 6009.6 gallons per hour. It will also have a maximum water weight of 7357.54 LBS. -- Craig ________________________________ www.CanadianCray.tk www.Bluecrayfish.com "CanadianCray" wrote in message ... I calculated it to be even smaller. I got 121"L X 44"W X 37.25"H interior dimensions. Taking into account 1" thick on sides & bottom & 3/4" thick on lid. I calculated tank dimensions to be this. Your aquarium can hold gallons of Water. If we assume the water level in your aquarium is 1 inch below the top then the total gallons would be . This however doesn't take into account sump & FBF. -- Craig ________________________________ www.CanadianCray.tk www.Bluecrayfish.com "NetMax" wrote in message ... "John " wrote in message ... Well I did it. Purchased a used 955g on eBay, I will be driving to St. Louis this weekend to pick it up. Size: Tank 10'3" long 3'10" wide 3'3" tall Fluidized Bed 6' tall 6" wide (cylinder) Reservoir Bed 7' long 2' wide 2' tall. Pictures and description on ebay at http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...e=STRK:MEWA:IT Interesting that the ad says 995g, but the dimensions yield 955g and the actual water capacity after the thickness is 875g (if filled to the top) - but that's still one tank of a tank ;~). If you ever need to medicate or do any calculations, I would use 850g (accounting for the substrate and rock work) and add the sump capacity if being used. I really don't have enough room for the 250 Gallon Reservoir Tank/Sump that comes with the tank, and want to compact the sump/filter. 1) I really don't know much about "Fluidized Beds". I have searched google, and found some general discussion but most of the topics were comparing other kinds of filters. I am a picture kind of guy, does anyone have a link to a website with drawings and an actual description of the process? Water is pumped up through the tube, and the sand grains lift up to allow the water to go through. The end result is that there is a tiny gap between most of the grains of sand allowing the water to pass between them. You can modify it in a number of ways, keeping a few principles in mind i) that the tube should be relatively narrow (relative to flow, so you don't have dead spots in the sand becoming compressed and anaerobic), ii) the flow is not so great to cause sand to significantly exit the tube, iii) the flow must be even and uninterrupted, and iv) do not let it get choked with any debris (must be at the output of a mechanical filter). The surface area of the sand grains becomes coated in bacteria, so you have a tremendous biological capacity in a FBF. 2) I read that sand is the media of choice for the Fluidized Bed. What kind? Silica, Beach Sand w/quarts? My minnow tanks use crushed lava rock and support thousands of fish in 120 gallons of water. Might this make a good filter material? I don't think an FBF is an FBF unless you use sand. The water causes the sand bed to become 'fluid' hence the name. Substituting other media just makes it into a regular biological filter. 3) NetMax, will the Reservoir Bed described here work for your idea of an undergravel space to suck up the detritus? (Continuous Gravel Filter) I don't think so. Their reservoir bed appears to be a sump. 4) What will I need for a pump to circulate & operate this filter? I read one article that used a 100 gph pump but that seems way to small, I was thinking about 1000 to 1200 gph, am I headed in the right direction? It's going to depend on your fishload, but 1000 to 2000 gph is the ballpark. Game fish are more carniverous, so with the extra food given you will need more than the usual filtration. The FBF does the biological, but you will need serious mechanical filtration and a good flow to pick up their waste. 5) I read that fluidized beds deplete the oxygen in the water, will I have to circulate the water and use spray bars at the top to keep the surface moving? Will this be enough or will I need to add an air pump and a LARGE airstone? With cool water, your O2 levels will be higher to start with. I would speculate that the O2 use would entirely depend on fish-load and the quantity of fish food you are using, so I think you should be able to adjust this as you go along. 6) This is a game fish aquarium, so the fish are used to a wide variety of water temps. In the winter I can keep the water temp in a 120g tank around 66 to 68 degrees, but in the summer the temp rises to the HIGH 70's. Will 1000g react the same? I know it will take longer to heat up, but any idea if I will need a chiller for this tank? I suspect that on a daily basis, you will not see this tank change temperature significantly. It will settle on the average temperature (per 24 hours) with a significant lag time spread over a few days (especially if you insulate unseen sides). I hope you don't need a chiller, and if you do, design it for your application, so if all you need is something for a few weeks, there are other ways (ie: stainless steel lines and a circulating pump between a coil in your sump and your meat freezer ;~). 7) 10,000# of tank, gravel and water. Stands? Concrete Blocks? Lumber? How will I need to support this tank? Beer cases, start drinking. Seriously, tank weight (750lbs?) plus 875g x 8.75lbs/gal (7,665) plus rockwork (250lbs) = 3.9 tons. Stands are easy, make sure the floor will take it. Personally I would not use concrete or cinder blocks as they can crumble too easily if the weight is poorly distributed. Lumber works fine, making several box frames (ie:4x4) and fastening them together, and then a layer of plywood and expanded polystyrene on top. I would get quotes on a welded steel frame stand. Not pretty (add some wood, aluminium or stainless steel sides), but they leave a lot of usable space underneath. Holding it up is not really the problem, it's holding it up uniformly that's the challenge. You want the 10' length evenly supported (so if using beer cases, make sure the bottles are all the same size ;~). 8) Using the gravel and filter media from the old 120g tank, how long do you think it will take to cycle this much water? If the fish load of the new tank is the same as the 120g (ie: you moved the fish over), then the cycle might not be of any significance. I'd do test measurements for a few days while feeding a little less. More questions later THANKS for your input. JOhn No problem John, lots of us have tanks that size (NOT) and we would be glad to share our experience. For reference though, the only comparably sized tank I've worked on is here http://www.2cah.com/netmax/about/mytanks/POND2.jpg at around 800g, and it used a pool pump and pool sand filter. The waterfall added lots of O2. hint: Peek into the pond newsgroup. They have lots of experience with that size. Just don't ask them about lighting, or they'll catch on that your tank is not a pond ;~). Seriously though, a lot of pond folks do overwinter their Koi in basement tanks which are in the 700-2000g range, so some really do have experience & advice on temperature stability, pumps, filter media in bulk, food in bulk etc. ps: I am sooooo jealous. -- www.NetMax.tk |
snip
sizes. They vary in how quickly they become irrelevant, but I think all of them are quite questionable by the time you hit 250g. For example, heat loss is linear to the ratio of surface (sides, top & bottom) to water, and as a tank gets bigger, this surface/volume ratio decreases, so you need less watts to maintain a given difference in temperature. No Heaters for this tank, Mother Nature will take care of her own. If this were a Tropical or SW tank, it would make a difference. MN is keeping bluegills alive in 34 degree water right now, a drop to 60 - 65 is certainly tolerable. I am more worried about summer increases to the high 70's low 80's. In lighting, the guidelines typically consider the 12 to 24" range of depths, not the 39" depth of this puppy, so the attenuation, type of lights and substrate colour are factors which increase in importance when designing lighting for big tanks. Don't ask me for too much more details though, "I'm no expert." only on lighting big tanks JOhn |
"NetMax" wrote in message ... How are you doing the calculation (or are you plugging it into someone's calculator)? I hope I didn't make a mistake. The tank exterior dimensions a 10'3" long 3'10" wide 3'3" tall I convert that to inches and divide the numerator (multiple the length, width & height) by 231 (for US gallons), to give me the tank's reference size. That's 123x46x39/231= 955g For the inside measurement, I subtracted the thickness off of the sides, length and bottom: 121x44x38= 875g You caught the top (121x44x37.25), so another 3/4" = 864g Drop the water an inch and (121x44x36.25) and you have 841g. I can't seem to get 809g. Did you compensate for something else I missed? Substrate? -- My Aquatic web Blog is at http://members.optusnet.com.au/ivan.smith |
Interesting that the ad says 995g, but the dimensions yield 955g and the actual water capacity after the thickness is 875g (if filled to the top) - but that's still one tank of a tank ;~). If you ever need to Amazing you picked up on that. I saw the "995" on the title of the item, but always (in my mind) figured it was 955 medicate or do any calculations, I would use 850g (accounting for the substrate and rock work) and add the sump capacity if being used. This seems like a good point to start. I just got a reality check. I went broke treating the 120g for fungus, I cannot even imagine if I had an outbreak in this tank. Like treating the ocean for ich. So if I used two cups of rock salt in 120g then 850 / 120 = 7.08 14 Cups of rock salt every month ... Yes the largest Course Solar Water Softner Salt I can find. I really don't have enough room for the 250 Gallon Reservoir Tank/Sump that comes with the tank, and want to compact the sump/filter. What about a 55g wet/dry filter with 3" of foam at eh top and 15 to 30 gallons of bio balls? Water is pumped up through the tube, and the sand grains lift up to allow the water to go through. The end result is that there is a tiny gap I did do some more research and found this info, but your description is short and easier to understand. 3) NetMax, will the Reservoir Bed described here work for your idea of an undergravel space to suck up the detritus? (Continuous Gravel Filter) I don't think so. Their reservoir bed appears to be a sump. Duh - for some reason I was reading it as 7' X 2' X 2" Thinking it was 2" high. It's going to depend on your fishload, but 1000 to 2000 gph is the My guess too biological, but you will need serious mechanical filtration and a good flow to pick up their waste. This I can get away using the sump without the FBF? Beer cases, start drinking. Starting to wish I still drink bear Seriously, tank weight (750lbs?) plus 875g x 8.75lbs/gal (7,665) plus rockwork (250lbs) = 3.9 tons. Stands are easy, make sure the floor will take it. 6" reinforced concrete Lumber works fine, making several box frames (ie:4x4) and fastening them together, Are 4 X 4's structually sounder that 2 X 6's and the uprights spaced 2' apart would only have to support 800# each and 16' apart at 550# OK - 4 X 4 uprights and 2 X 6 cross members. I was more concerned with holding up the middle of the tank then the edges. and then a layer of plywood and expanded polystyrene on top. What is the purpose of the styro layer? 10' length evenly supported (so if using beer cases, make sure the bottles are all the same size ;~). The I better use full strength beer, not light beer. What about a dark lager? If the fish load of the new tank is the same as the 120g (ie: you moved the fish over), then the cycle might not be of any significance. I'd do test measurements for a few days while feeding a little less. The nice think about game fish is that I don't FEED them, they help themselves to the other inhabitants of the tank. http://www.2cah.com/netmax/about/mytanks/POND2.jpg at around 800g, and it Cool, would yo uhelp me build one of those in my next project? used a pool pump and pool sand filter. The waterfall added lots of O2. hint: Peek into the pond newsgroup. They have lots of experience with Not a bad idea. TANKS for the idea's, I will be back. JOhn |
Substrate?
3" deep of 1" to 2" round river rock with a few 6" to 8" boulders scattered here and there. Driftwood, lots of driftwood and some native looking plants. I saw a version of millfoil that was NOT eurasion millfoil, maybee duckweed or pond weed of sone sort. JOhn |
yup, 858.52g (I got that one wrong below, slip of finger I guess), but I
still can't get your 809g number. Not important though, was just curious if one of us had used imperial instead of american gallons or something. I don't use the calculators, just the formula from memory, and my memory ain't the best. -- www.NetMax.tk "CanadianCray" wrote in message ... I put 121X44X37.25 into 3 different online calculators & came up with them same numbers exactly. http://pw2.netcom.com/~ddougal/AquaV...%2FRectangular http://www.drhelm.com/aquarium/areajava.html -- Craig ________________________________ www.CanadianCray.tk www.Bluecrayfish.com "NetMax" wrote in message ... How are you doing the calculation (or are you plugging it into someone's calculator)? I hope I didn't make a mistake. The tank exterior dimensions a 10'3" long 3'10" wide 3'3" tall I convert that to inches and divide the numerator (multiple the length, width & height) by 231 (for US gallons), to give me the tank's reference size. That's 123x46x39/231= 955g For the inside measurement, I subtracted the thickness off of the sides, length and bottom: 121x44x38= 875g You caught the top (121x44x37.25), so another 3/4" = 864g Drop the water an inch and (121x44x36.25) and you have 841g. I can't seem to get 809g. Did you compensate for something else I missed? Regarding heating, filtration, lighting and fishload, the common guidelines are not linear and don't extrapolate well beyond certain tank sizes. They vary in how quickly they become irrelevant, but I think all of them are quite questionable by the time you hit 250g. For example, heat loss is linear to the ratio of surface (sides, top & bottom) to water, and as a tank gets bigger, this surface/volume ratio decreases, so you need less watts to maintain a given difference in temperature. In lighting, the guidelines typically consider the 12 to 24" range of depths, not the 39" depth of this puppy, so the attenuation, type of lights and substrate colour are factors which increase in importance when designing lighting for big tanks. Don't ask me for too much more details though, I'm no expert. -- www.NetMax.tk "CanadianCray" wrote in message ... Lets try that again.... I calculated it to be even smaller. I got 121"L X 44"W X 37.25"H interior dimensions. Taking into account 1" thick on sides & bottom & 3/4" thick on lid. I calculated tank dimensions to be this. Your aquarium can hold 858.52 gallons of Water. If we assume the water level in your aquarium is 1 inch below the top then the total gallons would be 809.74. This however doesn't take into account sump & FBF. -- Craig ________________________________ www.CanadianCray.tk www.Bluecrayfish.com "CanadianCray" wrote in message ... I calculated it to be even smaller. I got 121"L X 44"W X 37.25"H interior dimensions. Taking into account 1" thick on sides & bottom & 3/4" thick on lid. I calculated tank dimensions to be this. Your aquarium can hold gallons of Water. If we assume the water level in your aquarium is 1 inch below the top then the total gallons would be . This however doesn't take into account sump & FBF. -- Craig ________________________________ www.CanadianCray.tk www.Bluecrayfish.com "NetMax" wrote in message ... "John " wrote in message ... Well I did it. Purchased a used 955g on eBay, I will be driving to St. Louis this weekend to pick it up. Size: Tank 10'3" long 3'10" wide 3'3" tall Fluidized Bed 6' tall 6" wide (cylinder) Reservoir Bed 7' long 2' wide 2' tall. Pictures and description on ebay at http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...e=STRK:MEWA:IT Interesting that the ad says 995g, but the dimensions yield 955g and the actual water capacity after the thickness is 875g (if filled to the top) - but that's still one tank of a tank ;~). If you ever need to medicate or do any calculations, I would use 850g (accounting for the substrate and rock work) and add the sump capacity if being used. I really don't have enough room for the 250 Gallon Reservoir Tank/Sump that comes with the tank, and want to compact the sump/filter. 1) I really don't know much about "Fluidized Beds". I have searched google, and found some general discussion but most of the topics were comparing other kinds of filters. I am a picture kind of guy, does anyone have a link to a website with drawings and an actual description of the process? Water is pumped up through the tube, and the sand grains lift up to allow the water to go through. The end result is that there is a tiny gap between most of the grains of sand allowing the water to pass between them. You can modify it in a number of ways, keeping a few principles in mind i) that the tube should be relatively narrow (relative to flow, so you don't have dead spots in the sand becoming compressed and anaerobic), ii) the flow is not so great to cause sand to significantly exit the tube, iii) the flow must be even and uninterrupted, and iv) do not let it get choked with any debris (must be at the output of a mechanical filter). The surface area of the sand grains becomes coated in bacteria, so you have a tremendous biological capacity in a FBF. 2) I read that sand is the media of choice for the Fluidized Bed. What kind? Silica, Beach Sand w/quarts? My minnow tanks use crushed lava rock and support thousands of fish in 120 gallons of water. Might this make a good filter material? I don't think an FBF is an FBF unless you use sand. The water causes the sand bed to become 'fluid' hence the name. Substituting other media just makes it into a regular biological filter. 3) NetMax, will the Reservoir Bed described here work for your idea of an undergravel space to suck up the detritus? (Continuous Gravel Filter) I don't think so. Their reservoir bed appears to be a sump. 4) What will I need for a pump to circulate & operate this filter? I read one article that used a 100 gph pump but that seems way to small, I was thinking about 1000 to 1200 gph, am I headed in the right direction? It's going to depend on your fishload, but 1000 to 2000 gph is the ballpark. Game fish are more carniverous, so with the extra food given you will need more than the usual filtration. The FBF does the biological, but you will need serious mechanical filtration and a good flow to pick up their waste. 5) I read that fluidized beds deplete the oxygen in the water, will I have to circulate the water and use spray bars at the top to keep the surface moving? Will this be enough or will I need to add an air pump and a LARGE airstone? With cool water, your O2 levels will be higher to start with. I would speculate that the O2 use would entirely depend on fish-load and the quantity of fish food you are using, so I think you should be able to adjust this as you go along. 6) This is a game fish aquarium, so the fish are used to a wide variety of water temps. In the winter I can keep the water temp in a 120g tank around 66 to 68 degrees, but in the summer the temp rises to the HIGH 70's. Will 1000g react the same? I know it will take longer to heat up, but any idea if I will need a chiller for this tank? I suspect that on a daily basis, you will not see this tank change temperature significantly. It will settle on the average temperature (per 24 hours) with a significant lag time spread over a few days (especially if you insulate unseen sides). I hope you don't need a chiller, and if you do, design it for your application, so if all you need is something for a few weeks, there are other ways (ie: stainless steel lines and a circulating pump between a coil in your sump and your meat freezer ;~). 7) 10,000# of tank, gravel and water. Stands? Concrete Blocks? Lumber? How will I need to support this tank? Beer cases, start drinking. Seriously, tank weight (750lbs?) plus 875g x 8.75lbs/gal (7,665) plus rockwork (250lbs) = 3.9 tons. Stands are easy, make sure the floor will take it. Personally I would not use concrete or cinder blocks as they can crumble too easily if the weight is poorly distributed. Lumber works fine, making several box frames (ie:4x4) and fastening them together, and then a layer of plywood and expanded polystyrene on top. I would get quotes on a welded steel frame stand. Not pretty (add some wood, aluminium or stainless steel sides), but they leave a lot of usable space underneath. Holding it up is not really the problem, it's holding it up uniformly that's the challenge. You want the 10' length evenly supported (so if using beer cases, make sure the bottles are all the same size ;~). 8) Using the gravel and filter media from the old 120g tank, how long do you think it will take to cycle this much water? If the fish load of the new tank is the same as the 120g (ie: you moved the fish over), then the cycle might not be of any significance. I'd do test measurements for a few days while feeding a little less. More questions later THANKS for your input. JOhn No problem John, lots of us have tanks that size (NOT) and we would be glad to share our experience. For reference though, the only comparably sized tank I've worked on is here http://www.2cah.com/netmax/about/mytanks/POND2.jpg at around 800g, and it used a pool pump and pool sand filter. The waterfall added lots of O2. hint: Peek into the pond newsgroup. They have lots of experience with that size. Just don't ask them about lighting, or they'll catch on that your tank is not a pond ;~). Seriously though, a lot of pond folks do overwinter their Koi in basement tanks which are in the 700-2000g range, so some really do have experience & advice on temperature stability, pumps, filter media in bulk, food in bulk etc. ps: I am sooooo jealous. -- www.NetMax.tk |
Yeah I don't about that one. It was just another figure one of the
calculators gave. -- Craig ________________________________ www.CanadianCray.tk www.Bluecrayfish.com "NetMax" wrote in message ... yup, 858.52g (I got that one wrong below, slip of finger I guess), but I still can't get your 809g number. Not important though, was just curious if one of us had used imperial instead of american gallons or something. I don't use the calculators, just the formula from memory, and my memory ain't the best. -- www.NetMax.tk "CanadianCray" wrote in message ... I put 121X44X37.25 into 3 different online calculators & came up with them same numbers exactly. http://pw2.netcom.com/~ddougal/AquaV...%2FRectangular http://www.drhelm.com/aquarium/areajava.html -- Craig ________________________________ www.CanadianCray.tk www.Bluecrayfish.com "NetMax" wrote in message ... How are you doing the calculation (or are you plugging it into someone's calculator)? I hope I didn't make a mistake. The tank exterior dimensions a 10'3" long 3'10" wide 3'3" tall I convert that to inches and divide the numerator (multiple the length, width & height) by 231 (for US gallons), to give me the tank's reference size. That's 123x46x39/231= 955g For the inside measurement, I subtracted the thickness off of the sides, length and bottom: 121x44x38= 875g You caught the top (121x44x37.25), so another 3/4" = 864g Drop the water an inch and (121x44x36.25) and you have 841g. I can't seem to get 809g. Did you compensate for something else I missed? Regarding heating, filtration, lighting and fishload, the common guidelines are not linear and don't extrapolate well beyond certain tank sizes. They vary in how quickly they become irrelevant, but I think all of them are quite questionable by the time you hit 250g. For example, heat loss is linear to the ratio of surface (sides, top & bottom) to water, and as a tank gets bigger, this surface/volume ratio decreases, so you need less watts to maintain a given difference in temperature. In lighting, the guidelines typically consider the 12 to 24" range of depths, not the 39" depth of this puppy, so the attenuation, type of lights and substrate colour are factors which increase in importance when designing lighting for big tanks. Don't ask me for too much more details though, I'm no expert. -- www.NetMax.tk "CanadianCray" wrote in message ... Lets try that again.... I calculated it to be even smaller. I got 121"L X 44"W X 37.25"H interior dimensions. Taking into account 1" thick on sides & bottom & 3/4" thick on lid. I calculated tank dimensions to be this. Your aquarium can hold 858.52 gallons of Water. If we assume the water level in your aquarium is 1 inch below the top then the total gallons would be 809.74. This however doesn't take into account sump & FBF. -- Craig ________________________________ www.CanadianCray.tk www.Bluecrayfish.com "CanadianCray" wrote in message ... I calculated it to be even smaller. I got 121"L X 44"W X 37.25"H interior dimensions. Taking into account 1" thick on sides & bottom & 3/4" thick on lid. I calculated tank dimensions to be this. Your aquarium can hold gallons of Water. If we assume the water level in your aquarium is 1 inch below the top then the total gallons would be . This however doesn't take into account sump & FBF. -- Craig ________________________________ www.CanadianCray.tk www.Bluecrayfish.com "NetMax" wrote in message ... "John " wrote in message ... Well I did it. Purchased a used 955g on eBay, I will be driving to St. Louis this weekend to pick it up. Size: Tank 10'3" long 3'10" wide 3'3" tall Fluidized Bed 6' tall 6" wide (cylinder) Reservoir Bed 7' long 2' wide 2' tall. Pictures and description on ebay at http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...e=STRK:MEWA:IT Interesting that the ad says 995g, but the dimensions yield 955g and the actual water capacity after the thickness is 875g (if filled to the top) - but that's still one tank of a tank ;~). If you ever need to medicate or do any calculations, I would use 850g (accounting for the substrate and rock work) and add the sump capacity if being used. I really don't have enough room for the 250 Gallon Reservoir Tank/Sump that comes with the tank, and want to compact the sump/filter. 1) I really don't know much about "Fluidized Beds". I have searched google, and found some general discussion but most of the topics were comparing other kinds of filters. I am a picture kind of guy, does anyone have a link to a website with drawings and an actual description of the process? Water is pumped up through the tube, and the sand grains lift up to allow the water to go through. The end result is that there is a tiny gap between most of the grains of sand allowing the water to pass between them. You can modify it in a number of ways, keeping a few principles in mind i) that the tube should be relatively narrow (relative to flow, so you don't have dead spots in the sand becoming compressed and anaerobic), ii) the flow is not so great to cause sand to significantly exit the tube, iii) the flow must be even and uninterrupted, and iv) do not let it get choked with any debris (must be at the output of a mechanical filter). The surface area of the sand grains becomes coated in bacteria, so you have a tremendous biological capacity in a FBF. 2) I read that sand is the media of choice for the Fluidized Bed. What kind? Silica, Beach Sand w/quarts? My minnow tanks use crushed lava rock and support thousands of fish in 120 gallons of water. Might this make a good filter material? I don't think an FBF is an FBF unless you use sand. The water causes the sand bed to become 'fluid' hence the name. Substituting other media just makes it into a regular biological filter. 3) NetMax, will the Reservoir Bed described here work for your idea of an undergravel space to suck up the detritus? (Continuous Gravel Filter) I don't think so. Their reservoir bed appears to be a sump. 4) What will I need for a pump to circulate & operate this filter? I read one article that used a 100 gph pump but that seems way to small, I was thinking about 1000 to 1200 gph, am I headed in the right direction? It's going to depend on your fishload, but 1000 to 2000 gph is the ballpark. Game fish are more carniverous, so with the extra food given you will need more than the usual filtration. The FBF does the biological, but you will need serious mechanical filtration and a good flow to pick up their waste. 5) I read that fluidized beds deplete the oxygen in the water, will I have to circulate the water and use spray bars at the top to keep the surface moving? Will this be enough or will I need to add an air pump and a LARGE airstone? With cool water, your O2 levels will be higher to start with. I would speculate that the O2 use would entirely depend on fish-load and the quantity of fish food you are using, so I think you should be able to adjust this as you go along. 6) This is a game fish aquarium, so the fish are used to a wide variety of water temps. In the winter I can keep the water temp in a 120g tank around 66 to 68 degrees, but in the summer the temp rises to the HIGH 70's. Will 1000g react the same? I know it will take longer to heat up, but any idea if I will need a chiller for this tank? I suspect that on a daily basis, you will not see this tank change temperature significantly. It will settle on the average temperature (per 24 hours) with a significant lag time spread over a few days (especially if you insulate unseen sides). I hope you don't need a chiller, and if you do, design it for your application, so if all you need is something for a few weeks, there are other ways (ie: stainless steel lines and a circulating pump between a coil in your sump and your meat freezer ;~). 7) 10,000# of tank, gravel and water. Stands? Concrete Blocks? Lumber? How will I need to support this tank? Beer cases, start drinking. Seriously, tank weight (750lbs?) plus 875g x 8.75lbs/gal (7,665) plus rockwork (250lbs) = 3.9 tons. Stands are easy, make sure the floor will take it. Personally I would not use concrete or cinder blocks as they can crumble too easily if the weight is poorly distributed. Lumber works fine, making several box frames (ie:4x4) and fastening them together, and then a layer of plywood and expanded polystyrene on top. I would get quotes on a welded steel frame stand. Not pretty (add some wood, aluminium or stainless steel sides), but they leave a lot of usable space underneath. Holding it up is not really the problem, it's holding it up uniformly that's the challenge. You want the 10' length evenly supported (so if using beer cases, make sure the bottles are all the same size ;~). 8) Using the gravel and filter media from the old 120g tank, how long do you think it will take to cycle this much water? If the fish load of the new tank is the same as the 120g (ie: you moved the fish over), then the cycle might not be of any significance. I'd do test measurements for a few days while feeding a little less. More questions later THANKS for your input. JOhn No problem John, lots of us have tanks that size (NOT) and we would be glad to share our experience. For reference though, the only comparably sized tank I've worked on is here http://www.2cah.com/netmax/about/mytanks/POND2.jpg at around 800g, and it used a pool pump and pool sand filter. The waterfall added lots of O2. hint: Peek into the pond newsgroup. They have lots of experience with that size. Just don't ask them about lighting, or they'll catch on that your tank is not a pond ;~). Seriously though, a lot of pond folks do overwinter their Koi in basement tanks which are in the 700-2000g range, so some really do have experience & advice on temperature stability, pumps, filter media in bulk, food in bulk etc. ps: I am sooooo jealous. -- www.NetMax.tk |
"John " wrote in
message ... Interesting that the ad says 995g, but the dimensions yield 955g and the actual water capacity after the thickness is 875g (if filled to the top) - but that's still one tank of a tank ;~). If you ever need to Amazing you picked up on that. I saw the "995" on the title of the item, but always (in my mind) figured it was 955 Everyone rounds up, so I always check. Next someone might go and call it a 1000g tank ;~), (actually with sump, it would be bigger than 1000g). medicate or do any calculations, I would use 850g (accounting for the substrate and rock work) and add the sump capacity if being used. This seems like a good point to start. I just got a reality check. I went broke treating the 120g for fungus, I cannot even imagine if I had an outbreak in this tank. Like treating the ocean for ich. Actually Ich is easy to treat for in large tanks. You can buy the medicine by the gallon. Even the sulphur based drugs are manageable (try not to think about the money too long), but it's the antibiotics that will kill you. If you figure 25 cents a gallon, a typical three treatment dosage will cost you $640 dollars. Recreational fish wholesalers in the US have access to bulk quantites of antibiotics which you then keep in your freezer, but the best is to follow a quarantine program religiously so you don't have to medicate the tank, ever. So if I used two cups of rock salt in 120g then 850 / 120 = 7.08 14 Cups of rock salt every month ... Yes the largest Course Solar Water Softner Salt I can find. I really don't have enough room for the 250 Gallon Reservoir Tank/Sump that comes with the tank, and want to compact the sump/filter. What about a 55g wet/dry filter with 3" of foam at eh top and 15 to 30 gallons of bio balls? That sounds like something I would do, so that doesn't mean that it would actually work ;~). I think the challenge would be to spread the flow uniformly across the top, and provide a 1st stage mechanical filtration which would be easy to clean. Water is pumped up through the tube, and the sand grains lift up to allow the water to go through. The end result is that there is a tiny gap I did do some more research and found this info, but your description is short and easier to understand. 3) NetMax, will the Reservoir Bed described here work for your idea of an undergravel space to suck up the detritus? (Continuous Gravel Filter) I don't think so. Their reservoir bed appears to be a sump. Duh - for some reason I was reading it as 7' X 2' X 2" Thinking it was 2" high. It's going to depend on your fishload, but 1000 to 2000 gph is the My guess too biological, but you will need serious mechanical filtration and a good flow to pick up their waste. This I can get away using the sump without the FBF? I'm not a particular fan of the FBF as it requires a little bit of tweaking to get working just right and keep it working just right (ie: the need to stay within a range of flow rates). I also don't like the idea of centralizing so much biological functionality in a single location (leaving the system more exposed to failure in my way of thinking), but I'm also not a user so my opinion might not be that worthwhile. Personally, if I was going to use FBF, I would design a system just for it, using 2 tubes, 2 pumps and a large pre-filter with a progressive overflow and a visual status indicator that even I wouldn't miss. The original 250g sump was about 30% of the fish-tank, which jives with typical ratios I often see of around 20-30%. I don't know what science was ever used to get to this ratio (a 20 or 30g is the right size to fit in the stand of a 100g tank?), but I want to point out that your proposed 55g sump is around 6.5% of the fish tank. You might be pushing your biological/mechanical limit in that direction, and with your carniverous game fish, you might be pushing your waste production in the opposite direction. While it's hard to imagine that a 55g filter would be too small ;~), if it is, then you will need to service it more frequently, so design and locate it for easy access. Beer cases, start drinking. Starting to wish I still drink bear Seriously, tank weight (750lbs?) plus 875g x 8.75lbs/gal (7,665) plus rockwork (250lbs) = 3.9 tons. Stands are easy, make sure the floor will take it. 6" reinforced concrete Rebar is great stuff : ) Lumber works fine, making several box frames (ie:4x4) and fastening them together, Are 4 X 4's structually sounder that 2 X 6's and the uprights spaced 2' apart would only have to support 800# each and 16' apart at 550# OK - 4 X 4 uprights and 2 X 6 cross members. I was more concerned with holding up the middle of the tank then the edges. and then a layer of plywood and expanded polystyrene on top. What is the purpose of the styro layer? To compensate for surface irregularities between the stand and the bottom of the tank, due to pre-existing interferers (variation in stand and tank flatness, bolt heads, bottom tank trim etc), and irregularities due to uneven expansion (ie: thermal expansion of materials, swelling of wood from water ingress etc). It also provides a thermal insulation increasing the isolation between the water and the ambient air fluctuations. 10' length evenly supported (so if using beer cases, make sure the bottles are all the same size ;~). The I better use full strength beer, not light beer. What about a dark lager? Drink the beer first, the tank is held up with empties. This also helps pay for the move (when you have to switch apartments or homes, you cash in the bottles, and have one less thing to move too ;~). If the fish load of the new tank is the same as the 120g (ie: you moved the fish over), then the cycle might not be of any significance. I'd do test measurements for a few days while feeding a little less. The nice think about game fish is that I don't FEED them, they help themselves to the other inhabitants of the tank. That sounds cruel, so I'm hoping the other 'inhabitants' are shrimps, worms, minnows, grocery seafood etc. http://www.2cah.com/netmax/about/mytanks/POND2.jpg at around 800g, and it Cool, would yo uhelp me build one of those in my next project? Ha, I want to build one for myself first. I actually have one under construction, but it's tiny, only 4' high and I have no live creatures planned for it. used a pool pump and pool sand filter. The waterfall added lots of O2. hint: Peek into the pond newsgroup. They have lots of experience with Not a bad idea. TANKS for the idea's, I will be back. JOhn We know you will be :o) cheers -- www.NetMax.tk |
"Billy" wrote in message
... "NetMax" wrote in message ... | much more details though, I'm no expert. | -- I daresay most of us would challenge that statement.....g I wouldn't . When you consider that the tropical fish hobby started in the 1500s and fish are the third most popular pet today (so I'm told), that would make for a lot of fish-keepers in the world, (though the ones from the 1500s don't count anymore ;~). Then consider that fish people tend to be more technical and inclined to do research (this is commonly observed in the commercial trade). Then consider that no other pet interest will lead you on so many technical inquiries, ie: chemistry (water parameters), biology (cycling tanks), fluid mechanics (filter systems), carpentry (building your own stands and hoods), psychology (introducing new fish), medicine (antibiotics to parasite treatments), physics (light Kelvin frequencies), electronics (heater technologies), geology (rocks to harden water), plumbing (for the DIYer), nutrition (discussions on best fish foods), psychiatry (dealing with your need to buy more aquariums ;~), genetics (line breeding for traits), husbandry (keeping those fry alive), economics (making a business out of the hobby), flora (aquatic plants), fermentation (for CO2 injection - what field is that ... brewmaster? ;~) and so on and so on (I'm sure I've missed many fields). So in this crowd, it's only the very brave or the very foolish who will claim expertise ;~) -- www.NetMax.tk |
NetMax wrote:
So in this crowd, it's only the very brave or the very foolish who will claim expertise You don't have to claim it. We'll be more than happy to thrust the title on you :) -- Eric Schreiber www.ericschreiber.com |
"Eric Schreiber" eric at ericschreiber dot com wrote in message ... | NetMax wrote: | | You don't have to claim it. We'll be more than happy to thrust the | title on you :) | Aye!g Although, I hear what Max is saying. There are so many times I've been at wits end with some problem or project, only to wish out loud that I had a degree in one of the subjects he mentioned.....usually chemistry. |
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