Nitrates?
 

I know this is probably a controversial subject but I am still trying to get
a real grasp of what concerns I should have about nitrates. The opinions
seem to be diverse. Some say the number is not so significant so long as
the fish grow with it. Others say don't worry unless its almost off the
scale. Others say whoa 10ppm max, no 20 well no more than 30-50. I am
hopelessly addicted to my little fishes so I generally think I keep a pretty
good tank. Around 10x gph/tank size with penguin filters. Weekly water
changes and vacuuming. Test 2x/wk. No ammonia or nitrites. But my nitrates
do tend to be a little high (depending on who you talk to).=10-40 I think.
It seems you would have to be an accomplished artist to correctly interpret
those shades:) Frankly my budget is well suited to the inexpensive bio
wheels, but I am tempted to try canisters just so I can add some nitra zorb
or other additives, if it's really necessary. Of course then there are
other vets who say UG filter and a sponge filter, thats all you ever need to
add to a tank. The bottom line is I am going to have a tendency to want to
spend sparingly, add as little as possible and stock heavily and I am trying
to 'learn' to know how many fish I can handle safely. I am willing to put
in more time quicker than I am more money. I really do value each fish so I
don't want to learn by death rates. But, I also pond. From there I know
there are alway those who suggest much lower stocking rates, 'to be safe'
when much higher are possible if you know what you've doing and are willing
to moniter things a little more closely.

Sorry, I know this is a long post and probably some will be tempted to say
give it 4 years and you'll get you 'fish sense'. I'm hoping I can cut down
that time with some of your wisdom.
Thanxx
Bill Brister - Austin, Texas

"Newbie Bill" wrote in message
om...
|I know this is probably a controversial subject but I am still
trying to get
| a real grasp of what concerns I should have about nitrates. The
opinions
| seem to be diverse. Some say the number is not so significant so
long as
| the fish grow with it. Others say don't worry unless its almost
off the
| scale. Others say whoa 10ppm max, no 20 well no more than 30-50.

Most FW fish, in my experience, can tolerate very high levels of
nitrates, well over 100ppm. That is not to say they enjoy it, nor
that it lends to a long, healthy life. In the perfect world, keeping
the nitrates in your freshwater tank under 10 could not be called a
hazard by any means. Like you, however, I'm neither wealthy, nor
overloaded with spare time, likely the reason we're posting on USENET
at this time of night.
The thing to keep in mind is that it is not *necessarily* the
toxins that kill the fish. The worst thing for our fish is
inconsistency. Temp fluctuation. PH variance. Ammonia spikes because
of improper filter maintenance would, in many cases, be more
hazardous than a constant low level of ammonia. The amount of energy
required to handle the changes is enormous, and results in a weakened
fish, which is much more likely to succumb to other maladies.
All that said, I would agree, at least in part, with two of the
statements you related.
"Some say the number is not (necessarily) so significant so long as
the fish grow with it." and "well no more than 30-50". If there is a
maintenance regimen that you can establish and keep to, that will
maintain the water parameters within a small range, your fish should
be very well.

billy

nitrates are harmless. Don't worry about it. In fact in planted tanks
people try to get more nitrates which the aquatic plants need to live. I
would agree with those that say as long as they don't go off the scale it
will be fine. As long as you are doing your weekly water changes, don't
worry about it.

--

Margolis
http://web.archive.org/web/200302152...qs/AGQ2FAQ.htm
http://www.unrealtower.org/faq

Margolis wrote:

nitrates are harmless. Don't worry about it. In fact in planted tanks
people try to get more nitrates which the aquatic plants need to live. I
would agree with those that say as long as they don't go off the scale it
will be fine. As long as you are doing your weekly water changes, don't
worry about it.


Nitrates at high levels are not harmless to fish, it will kill them eventually!

"Margolis" wrote in message
...
| nitrates are harmless. Don't worry about it. In fact in planted
tanks
| people try to get more nitrates

This is because the plants *consume* the nitrates, so while the
plants keep the nitrates low, this in no way suggests that nitrates
don't harm fish. My planted tank usually reads 0 nitrates, despite my
efforts to raise them with the use of fertilizers of various types,
and the fact that I rarely do water changes on it.
Nitrates are not harmless, it's a poison. Not as bad a poison as
ammonia, for example, but a poison just the same. Large amounts will
kill fish.

"Geezer From The Freezer" wrote in message
...


Margolis wrote:

nitrates are harmless. Don't worry about it. In fact in planted tanks
people try to get more nitrates which the aquatic plants need to live. I
would agree with those that say as long as they don't go off the scale it
will be fine. As long as you are doing your weekly water changes, don't
worry about it.


Nitrates at high levels are not harmless to fish, it will kill them
eventually!

So then we change 25% of our water, clean all of our filters, vacuum the
gravel and learn to feed our pets properly (before they get killed) ;)

Oz


--
My Aquatic web Blog is at http://members.optusnet.com.au/ivan.smith

"Newbie Bill" wrote in message
om...
I know this is probably a controversial subject but I am still trying to
get a real grasp of what concerns I should have about nitrates. The
opinions seem to be diverse. Some say the number is not so significant so
long as the fish grow with it. Others say don't worry unless its almost
off the scale. Others say whoa 10ppm max, no 20 well no more than 30-50.

That's the advice I've usually gotten from people who
have really large tanks with a lot of expensive fish. :)
I have small mostly cheap tropicals.

I am
hopelessly addicted to my little fishes so I generally think I keep a
pretty good tank.

I managed to kill off all but my Cory cats before
someone clued me in on nitrates. Now I have heavily
planted tanks and don't worry about nitrates. Plants
are healthy, fish are healthy, and I do partial water
changes about every 2 weeks to replace minerals and
bring pH & kh back up. (Adding baking soda is
helping with that, plus I'm starting to experiment with
a bit of crushed coral.)

Around 10x gph/tank size with penguin filters. Weekly water
changes and vacuuming. Test 2x/wk. No ammonia or nitrites. But my
nitrates do tend to be a little high (depending on who you talk to).=10-40
I think.

Could be you're overfeeding a bit. That's something a
lot of us do, I think. Maybe try throwing in a fast day?
It's hard to walk past a tank knowing I haven't fed
the poor guys that day, but it really doesn't hurt them
and might help keep the nitrates down. Anyhoo, I
schedule Wednesday for my fast days. (by "my" I
mean the fish, but I suppose I could do a fast day
for myself, too. LOL)

It seems you would have to be an accomplished artist to correctly
interpret those shades:) Frankly my budget is well suited to the
inexpensive bio wheels,

I use those, too. And I find natural light (I step just
outside my door) can help compare the results to the
paper scales.

but I am tempted to try canisters just so I can add some nitra zorb
or other additives, if it's really necessary.

I have added stuff in the power filters. Buy small media
bags at Petsmart or wherever. I've never had a canister.
Nothing against them, just prefer power filters.

Of course then there are
other vets who say UG filter and a sponge filter, thats all you ever need
to add to a tank. The bottom line is I am going to have a tendency to
want to spend sparingly, add as little as possible and stock heavily

By "stock heavily" what do you mean? If you're putting
too many fish into your tank(s), that could well be the
source of your higher nitrates (which don't seem excessively
high to me, but could be lower). Better to move up to
a larger tank than overstock.

and I am trying
to 'learn' to know how many fish I can handle safely. I am willing to put
in more time quicker than I am more money. I really do value each fish so
I don't want to learn by death rates. But, I also pond. From there I
know there are alway those who suggest much lower stocking rates, 'to be
safe' when much higher are possible if you know what you've doing and are
willing to moniter things a little more closely.

Sorry, I know this is a long post and probably some will be tempted to say
give it 4 years and you'll get you 'fish sense'. I'm hoping I can cut
down that time with some of your wisdom.
Thanxx
Bill Brister - Austin, Texas

"4 years" ?? I killed off most of my poor little fish over
a 7 year period - never learned a darned thing - until a
favorite elderly (and original inhabitant) Cory cat started
acting weird. In trying to learn what was wrong with her
and how to help, I started learning about water chemistry
(from hobbyist friends and from books), found the aquaria
newsgroups, went from plain gravel w/ fake decorations
to heavily planted tanks.

It takes whatever time it takes, and if you're ready
to learn more now, that's cool. But don't put a
time limit on yourself. You want to do the best for
your fish and that's a great attitude.

Gail
near San Antonio TX
::hi neighbor:: :)

"Newbie Bill" wrote in message
om...
I know this is probably a controversial subject but I am still trying to
get a real grasp of what concerns I should have about nitrates. The
opinions seem to be diverse. Some say the number is not so significant so
long as the fish grow with it. Others say don't worry unless its almost
off the scale. Others say whoa 10ppm max, no 20 well no more than 30-50.
I am hopelessly addicted to my little fishes so I generally think I keep a
pretty good tank. Around 10x gph/tank size with penguin filters. Weekly
water changes and vacuuming. Test 2x/wk. No ammonia or nitrites. But my
nitrates do tend to be a little high (depending on who you talk to).=10-40
I think. It seems you would have to be an accomplished artist to correctly
interpret those shades:) Frankly my budget is well suited to the
inexpensive bio wheels, but I am tempted to try canisters just so I can add
some nitra zorb or other additives, if it's really necessary. Of course
then there are other vets who say UG filter and a sponge filter, thats all
you ever need to add to a tank. The bottom line is I am going to have a
tendency to want to spend sparingly, add as little as possible and stock
heavily and I am trying to 'learn' to know how many fish I can handle
safely. I am willing to put in more time quicker than I am more money. I
really do value each fish so I don't want to learn by death rates. But, I
also pond. From there I know there are alway those who suggest much lower
stocking rates, 'to be safe' when much higher are possible if you know what
you've doing and are willing to moniter things a little more closely.

Sorry, I know this is a long post and probably some will be tempted to say
give it 4 years and you'll get you 'fish sense'. I'm hoping I can cut
down that time with some of your wisdom.
Thanxx
Bill Brister - Austin, Texas

Get some more plants and they will keep the Nitrates in check...

Dan J.S. wrote:
"Newbie Bill" wrote in message
om...

I know this is probably a controversial subject but I am still
trying to
get a real grasp of what concerns I should have about nitrates.


Get some more plants and they will keep the Nitrates in check...


Then get some high quality substrate to keep the plants healthy.

and more wattage, 2 watts per gallon at least!

and add some C02 for super plant health and growth.

and some good trace element ferts for dosing.
Then you can add some Nitrates.....

steve :)

"default" wrote in message
oups.com...

Dan J.S. wrote:
"Newbie Bill" wrote in message
om...

I know this is probably a controversial subject but I am still
trying to
get a real grasp of what concerns I should have about nitrates.


Get some more plants and they will keep the Nitrates in check...


Then get some high quality substrate to keep the plants healthy.

and more wattage, 2 watts per gallon at least!

and add some C02 for super plant health and growth.

and some good trace element ferts for dosing.
Then you can add some Nitrates.....

steve :)

Wow- I'm going to have to same this one in a special file for FUTURE
reference. Unfortunately my current budget doesn't allow for hi quality
this and hi wattage that. This does give me a great idea of what to head
towards though - thanxx.
Bill

"Gail Futoran" wrote in message
...

That's the advice I've usually gotten from people who
have really large tanks with a lot of expensive fish. :)
I have small mostly cheap tropicals.

That's me too:) When I go to the LFS first I scan the pricetags - then the
fish!!

Could be you're overfeeding a bit. That's something a
lot of us do, I think. Maybe try throwing in a fast day?
It's hard to walk past a tank knowing I haven't fed
the poor guys that day, but it really doesn't hurt them
and might help keep the nitrates down. Anyhoo, I
schedule Wednesday for my fast days. (by "my" I
mean the fish, but I suppose I could do a fast day
for myself, too. LOL)

I have read and forgotten about 'fast' days - good idea. btw - the only
tank that is 40ish is my one with fancy GF. I was just trying not to
confuse the issue since I know they are a little dirtier and hardier. I
also give them about 3 gal/inch.

The bottom line is I am going to have a tendency to
want to spend sparingly, add as little as possible and stock heavily

By "stock heavily" what do you mean? If you're putting
too many fish into your tank(s), that could well be the
source of your higher nitrates (which don't seem excessively
high to me, but could be lower). Better to move up to
a larger tank than overstock.

All the tanks I have are pretty much filled at the inch per gallon (with a
*little* growing room left). I can't really add much bigger tanks or they
would be REALLY expensive - I'd have to buy a bigger house:) I am curious
what plants you have. I have been trying to slowly build up my plant life
but thus far with small hood lights the only thing that seems to get bigger
instead of smaller is the anacharis I take from the pond.

"4 years" ?? I killed off most of my poor little fish over
a 7 year period - never learned a darned thing -
ROFL - too funny.

near San Antonio TX
::hi neighbor:: :)
Howdy partner(ess):) Yes I am the same Newbie Bill you have helped from
time to time in rec.ponds. I've just been graviting towards the glass ponds
during the winter.

Thanxx
Bill

"Larry Blanchard" wrote in message
...
|
| This may be a stupid question, but there is a difference in light
per
| watt between fluorescent and incandescent bulbs. It would be nice
if
| posters would define which they are talking about. Or does
everyone
| just assume fluorescent?

Flourescent is assumed. Incandescent lighting at the levels required
for many plants would create WAY too much heat.

Billy wrote:
"Larry Blanchard" wrote in message
...
|
| This may be a stupid question, but there is a difference in light
per
| watt between fluorescent and incandescent bulbs. It would be nice
if
| posters would define which they are talking about. Or does
everyone
| just assume fluorescent?

Flourescent is assumed. Incandescent lighting at the levels required
for many plants would create WAY too much heat.



Expect more confusion when super-cool LED aquarium lighting becomes
available. And the "bulbs" will last years!

"Nikki Casali" wrote in message
...
|
|
| Expect more confusion when super-cool LED aquarium lighting becomes
| available. And the "bulbs" will last years!
|

No doubt. I considered going into a long blather about CF, PC, HO, MH
and whatnot. Decided that was outside the scope of the question. g

"Billy" wrote in message
...


"Nikki Casali" wrote in message
...
|
|
| Expect more confusion when super-cool LED aquarium lighting becomes
| available. And the "bulbs" will last years!
|

No doubt. I considered going into a long blather about CF, PC, HO, MH
and whatnot. Decided that was outside the scope of the question. g

On/along this subject:

Does anyone know what CRI or lumen output Cold Cathode lights have?

I am thinking of using a couple of blue ones for "moon night lighting" on
the new tank.

Oz

--
My Aquatic web Blog is at http://members.optusnet.com.au/ivan.smith

"Larry Blanchard" wrote in message
...
In article 043Gd.17886

This may be a stupid question, but there is a difference in light per
watt between fluorescent and incandescent bulbs. It would be nice if
posters would define which they are talking about. Or does everyone
just assume fluorescent?





flourescent or metal halide. You cannot get incandescents with the proper
spectrum of light for growing plants. Incandescent grow lights are just
colored bulbs, they don't really work for plant growth.

--

Margolis
http://web.archive.org/web/200302152...qs/AGQ2FAQ.htm
http://www.unrealtower.org/faq

"Geezer From The Freezer" wrote in message
...


Margolis wrote:

nitrates are harmless. Don't worry about it. In fact in planted tanks
people try to get more nitrates which the aquatic plants need to live.
I
would agree with those that say as long as they don't go off the scale
it
will be fine. As long as you are doing your weekly water changes, don't
worry about it.


Nitrates at high levels are not harmless to fish, it will kill them
eventually!


I didn't say they were harmless at high levels. They are harmless as long
as they don't get extreme. That is why I qualified my statement by saying.

"As long as you are doing your weekly water changes, don't
worry about it."



--

Margolis
http://web.archive.org/web/200302152...qs/AGQ2FAQ.htm
http://www.unrealtower.org/faq

"Newbie Bill" wrote in message
. com...

"Gail Futoran" wrote in message
...
[snip]
All the tanks I have are pretty much filled at the inch per gallon (with a
*little* growing room left). I can't really add much bigger tanks or they
would be REALLY expensive - I'd have to buy a bigger house:)

I don't know how the experts feel about the system I'm
about to recommend, but I found this really useful
in figuring out how many fish I could reasonably have:
http://www.tropicalresources.net/web..._guide_fw.html
I'm still overstocked a bit in several of my tanks but
since all my fish are small tropicals I don't worry too much.

I am curious
what plants you have.

When I got started buying plants I didn't pay much
attention. Some died off, some did great. I think
I mostly have crypts, and definitely Java Fern (great
tied to driftwood or other surfaces). There's one
plant I mentioned in my other post I can't id and
wish I could. I tried taking photos to post but
none came out. Anyway, plants aren't that expensive
and I just try different ones til I find some that work.

I have been trying to slowly build up my plant life
but thus far with small hood lights the only thing that seems to get
bigger instead of smaller is the anacharis I take from the pond.

Oh yeah I've done that, too. :) My anacharis doesn't
seem to do as well indoors as outdoors. Maybe because
my tanks are warmer? It is worth converting to
flourescent lights, even the mini compacts Wal-Mart
now sells are worth a try. (They'll work in an
incandescent hood - trust me, I've done it.)

"4 years" ?? I killed off most of my poor little fish over
a 7 year period - never learned a darned thing -
ROFL - too funny.

near San Antonio TX
::hi neighbor:: :)
Howdy partner(ess):) Yes I am the same Newbie Bill you have helped from
time to time in rec.ponds. I've just been graviting towards the glass
ponds during the winter.

Thanxx
Bill

"glass ponds" I like that. :)

Gail

"Gail Futoran" wrote in message
...
I don't know how the experts feel about the system I'm
about to recommend, but I found this really useful
in figuring out how many fish I could reasonably have:
http://www.tropicalresources.net/web..._guide_fw.html
I'm still overstocked a bit in several of my tanks but
since all my fish are small tropicals I don't worry too much.

Rats- the site seems to be down right now. I would be very interested in
seeing yet another idea. My reference to pushing the limits (overstocked)
are based on the simple 1"/gallon rule. But like you most of my FW pets are
around 2 inches. I think I am correct in assuming that a 2" gourami is
going to produce more waste than a 2" narrow body tetra just because they
have more girth to support. I have also seen some reference to some fish
just apparently not producing as much waste per inch - platys are the only
one I have seen specifically mentioned. I have always figured that's one of
the reasons that fancy GF are considered so much more 'dirtier' - because
there is much more fish to support.

It is worth converting to
flourescent lights, even the mini compacts Wal-Mart
now sells are worth a try. (They'll work in an
incandescent hood - trust me, I've done it.)

All of my tanks have single florescent bulbs, 2 have the more expensive
'grow lights'. But they still are very minimal compared to the 2-5 watts
per gallon I often see recommended. The artificial plants in the 3rd tank
with regular florescent lighting seem to be doing fine:)

Thanxx
Bill

"Newbie Bill" wrote in message
...

"Gail Futoran" wrote in message
...
I don't know how the experts feel about the system I'm
about to recommend, but I found this really useful
in figuring out how many fish I could reasonably have:
http://www.tropicalresources.net/web..._guide_fw.html
I'm still overstocked a bit in several of my tanks but
since all my fish are small tropicals I don't worry too much.

Rats- the site seems to be down right now. I would be very interested
in seeing yet another idea. My reference to pushing the limits
(overstocked) are based on the simple 1"/gallon rule.

For your reading interests then : )
http://www.2cah.com/netmax/basics/st...stocking.shtml
--
www.NetMax.tk

snip
Thanxx
Bill

"NetMax" wrote in message
.. .
snip
For your reading interests then : )
http://www.2cah.com/netmax/basics/st...stocking.shtml
snip

I have read through this page and it is very informative. It does give me a
little better sense of where I am heading.
Couple more questions please. 1) Could you suggest a site(s) which might
give me a better idea of their tank swimming and activity levels? 2) I'm
sure you talk about it elsewhere but how concerned should you be with fish
suggested pH, gH, temp etc? My tap is normally around 7.5 pH and 150 gH.
3)What's the difference between schooling and shoaling fish?

Thanxx
Bill

schooling fish stay in a tight "military" style precise formation. There
are no "schooling" fish in the aquarium hobby that I know of. Things like
tetras that are called "schooling" are actually in a shoal. A shoal is a
social formation of fish also, but it is looser. Some fish may be facing
left, some right. Some looking down. In schools, all fish face the same
direction and move in precise unison, as if they are just one big fish.

and with your ph, you should be able to keep just about any fish you want
with no problems.

--

Margolis
http://web.archive.org/web/200302152...qs/AGQ2FAQ.htm
http://www.unrealtower.org/faq

Margolis wrote:
schooling fish stay in a tight "military" style precise formation. There
are no "schooling" fish in the aquarium hobby that I know of. Things like
tetras that are called "schooling" are actually in a shoal. A shoal is a
social formation of fish also, but it is looser. Some fish may be facing
left, some right. Some looking down. In schools, all fish face the same
direction and move in precise unison, as if they are just one big fish.

and with your ph, you should be able to keep just about any fish you want
with no problems.

I did have a group of 4 harlequin rasboras once that showed the true
schooling behavior you're describing a lot of the time. I don't know
whether this is unusual for harlequins, but it sure was cool to watch.

--
__ Elaine T __
__' http://eethomp.com/fish.html '__

"Newbie Bill" wrote in message
om...

"NetMax" wrote in message
.. .
snip
For your reading interests then : )
http://www.2cah.com/netmax/basics/st...stocking.shtml
snip

I have read through this page and it is very informative. It does give
me a little better sense of where I am heading.
Couple more questions please. 1) Could you suggest a site(s) which
might give me a better idea of their tank swimming and activity levels?

In a single site, not really, and it might take you a lot if mining. On
my links page, under ID, you will see a lot of the main sites.
Fortunately, general fish behaviour is by family (or genus), with nuances
by genus or species. You can learn a lot by their mouth. Gourami &
tetra mouths open pointing upwards (they feed from the surface, so they
spend lots of time in the top half of the tank) and Oto and cory mouths
point downwards, and these fish are heavier than water (so they are
bottom-feeders which stay on or near the bottom of the tank). Then there
are exceptions, such as Pygmy corys who like to swim in the water and
park in leaves, and some Betta (same family as gouramis) can spend lots
of time hunting along the bottom of a tank, so individual personalities
will factor in too.

2) I'm sure you talk about it elsewhere but how concerned should you
be with fish suggested pH, gH, temp etc? My tap is normally around 7.5
pH and 150 gH.

As I recall, gouramis, tetras, panda corys and otos. I also don't see
any problems with your water. You want to avoid the extremes when the
fish originate from the other extreme. You are more interested in pH, gH
temp etc, when looking for spawning triggers. More problems originate
from messing with the water, than from keeping it where it is and nice
and clean.

3)What's the difference between schooling and shoaling fish?

Already explained by others. Shoaling is to generally behave as a group.

Thanxx
Bill

pleasure : )
--
www.NetMax.tk

In article ,
says...
Couple more questions please. 1) Could you suggest a site(s) which
might give me a better idea of their tank swimming and activity levels?

In a single site, not really, and it might take you a lot if mining. On
my links page, under ID, you will see a lot of the main sites.

I had the luck to pick up a copy of Baensch's (sp?) Aquarium Atlas at a
used book sale. It gives that info (and a lot more) for each fish
listed. Copies should be findable on ABE.

--
Homo sapiens is a goal, not a description

"Margolis" wrote in message
...
"Geezer From The Freezer" wrote in message
...


Nitrates at high levels are not harmless to fish, it will kill them
eventually!


I didn't say they were harmless at high levels. They are harmless as long
as they don't get extreme. That is why I qualified my statement by
saying.

"As long as you are doing your weekly water changes, don't
worry about it."

I'm inclined to agree with this. Apparently I'm a more casual hobbyist than
ya'll. I have never monitored my water for anything, and my fish always seem
to live forever. I do change the water and clean the gravel pretty
regularly, and the rest seems to take care of itself. Algae is my biggest
battle, but it's certainly not overwhelming. The fish don't seem to mind it

A, trying to figure out what "KH" levels are...

KH is a measurement for water hardss .. ie minerals/metallic elements
content.

Passing this along too -- just learned yesterday nitrates ..that
when measuring in conjunction with tank medical treatments -- you may
get false positives ..(ie high problem readings with ammonial
derivatives due to the treating chemical ie a fungal eliminator)

So good husbandry and partial water changes ... etc.

In article , Scott
Connolly wrote:

KH is a measurement for water hardss .. ie minerals/metallic elements
content.

Carbonate hardness, as opposed to GH (or TH) which is calcium/magnesium.
There's a short, non-technical description on the Aquarium
Pharmaceuticals website:

http://www.aquariumpharm.com/articles/gh-kh.asp