Clownfish without anemones, and other newbie questions
 

Allright, I've been considering converting my spare 10 gallon
freshwater to a small sal****er tank, and considering what sort of fish
I would like to start with. My roomates really like "nemo fish," which
I believe are clownfish (not having ever seen "finding nemo" I'm not
sure).

From what I've read clownfish are fairly hardy, but what I haven't been
able to discern is whether or not an anemone is necessary. I searched
the newsgroup back a few years, and some posts say the clownfish will
die without a host aneome, others say they will be fine.

I don't really want to have corals/anemones in this tank, it just
sounds like an awful lot of work and specialized equipment. So if
clownfish desperately need them, I'll have to pick a different fish to
start with.
I'm also slightly confused by names, is there another fish that looks
similar to a clownfish but has a different name? or is there an
alternative term for them? I was in the LFS recently, and saw a fish
that looked like a clownfish to me, but was less than an inch long, and
labeled as something else (can't remember what though).

It'll be at least a month before I really start setting it up, so I
have lots of time to research. I've been going through the old usenet
archives (hooray for google archiving) and a few websites for research,
but any specific advice for my setup is welcome :)

I currently have a 10 gallon tank (cycled) with an undergravel and
Hang-on-back style filter. I think I will use crushed coral as a
substrate, because I already have a *ton* of it (I use it to maintain
the pH in my freshwater tank). I'm already quite familiar with the UGF
debate, but are there any extra caveats for sal****er tanks? I'm not
intensely attatched to it (its practically a religious argument for
some folks) but I did find that my water parameters were a lot more
stable after installing it.

I'm also trying to get a feel for how much this would cost. I have a
feeling I can't afford an amazing ideal setup, but I would like my tank
to be sufficient.

From my understanding I need to add live rock and a protien skimmer to
my setup, and pick up a hydrometer to measure the salinity. I already
have test kits. I also have a heater for the tank, and a ridiculous
number of air pumps ( i swear they breed). So I should be able to
convert my setup to SW for about $100-$150?

The other thing I haven't seen is the frequency/quantity of water
changes. I'm used to doing 30% weekly changes on my 40gallong
freshwater tank.

This ended up a ridiculously long post! My main concern though is the
clownfish question, I'm sure I'll dig up answers to the rest of these
as I do my research.

Hi Kelly(?),

A 10g is very small, but doable. Here is what you need:

A tank that has never had copper used in it.
A simple light, since you only want a couple of fish and no
corals.
A small piece of Live Rock would be nice for the fish to
seek shelter near, and give you more to look at than just
crushed coral
A heater
A powerhead, pointed up slightly to ripple the surface.
A HOB filter is fine. A skilter is a poor man's filter and
protein skimmer built into one, and can be modified to run
relatively silently.
Salt.
Test kits for ammonia, nitrite,nitrate.
Thermometer & Hydrometer.
Cleaning magnet or scrubbing pad that has never been used
with soap.
Frozen food or flake food (preferable both, to vary the
fish's diet.

You don't need an UGF, as they don't benefit a sal****er
tank at all. I had one in my 29g for years, and nitrates
were always up. Once I ripped it out finally, the problem
was solvable.

For fun, read this brief overview:
http://www.melevsreef.com/overview.htm

A clownfish will be absolutely fine without an anemone, and
I've had a mated pair in a 10g for 1.5 years without any
other creatures. They are now in a 29g for the past 5
months with a pair of eels, and a ton of LR (Live Rock).

If you increase your lighting to something better later, you
can add a few easy corals, such as mushrooms.

You should really take the time to navigate my site.
http://www.melevsreef.com

Be sure to click on Hidden Treasures!

Also, there is a site called http://www.nano-reef.com/ for
smaller tanks.

Marc




wrote:
Allright, I've been considering converting my spare 10 gallon
freshwater to a small sal****er tank, and considering what sort of fish
I would like to start with. My roomates really like "nemo fish," which
I believe are clownfish (not having ever seen "finding nemo" I'm not
sure).

From what I've read clownfish are fairly hardy, but what I haven't been
able to discern is whether or not an anemone is necessary. I searched
the newsgroup back a few years, and some posts say the clownfish will
die without a host aneome, others say they will be fine.

I don't really want to have corals/anemones in this tank, it just
sounds like an awful lot of work and specialized equipment. So if
clownfish desperately need them, I'll have to pick a different fish to
start with.
I'm also slightly confused by names, is there another fish that looks
similar to a clownfish but has a different name? or is there an
alternative term for them? I was in the LFS recently, and saw a fish
that looked like a clownfish to me, but was less than an inch long, and
labeled as something else (can't remember what though).

It'll be at least a month before I really start setting it up, so I
have lots of time to research. I've been going through the old usenet
archives (hooray for google archiving) and a few websites for research,
but any specific advice for my setup is welcome :)

I currently have a 10 gallon tank (cycled) with an undergravel and
Hang-on-back style filter. I think I will use crushed coral as a
substrate, because I already have a *ton* of it (I use it to maintain
the pH in my freshwater tank). I'm already quite familiar with the UGF
debate, but are there any extra caveats for sal****er tanks? I'm not
intensely attatched to it (its practically a religious argument for
some folks) but I did find that my water parameters were a lot more
stable after installing it.

I'm also trying to get a feel for how much this would cost. I have a
feeling I can't afford an amazing ideal setup, but I would like my tank
to be sufficient.

From my understanding I need to add live rock and a protien skimmer to
my setup, and pick up a hydrometer to measure the salinity. I already
have test kits. I also have a heater for the tank, and a ridiculous
number of air pumps ( i swear they breed). So I should be able to
convert my setup to SW for about $100-$150?

The other thing I haven't seen is the frequency/quantity of water
changes. I'm used to doing 30% weekly changes on my 40gallong
freshwater tank.

This ended up a ridiculously long post! My main concern though is the
clownfish question, I'm sure I'll dig up answers to the rest of these
as I do my research.


--
Personal Page:
http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com/oanda/index.html
Business Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com
Marine Hobbyist: http://www.melevsreef.com

Thanks! Your site has a ton of information! And that bubble tipped
anemone is huuuuge.

This may seem like a silly question, but are all hyrometers the same or
are the aquarium/salinity ones different? I have a triple mass
hydrometer I use for brewing, is this the same thing?

It sounds like sal****er doesn't need the massive weekly water changes
that freshwater does, is that correct? That changes where I can place
my tank. My 30/40 gallon freshwater (its a strange shape so i dont know
the actual gallonage) takes 30% water changes a week... I would die if
I had to do that with buckets.

Well, on a normal tank, changing 25% one a month will work.
However on a 10g nano, you will probably want to do them
more frequently.

Keep in mind that a smaller tank will suffer greater
parameter swings due to evaporation. You *MUST* add new
water daily to keep the salinity stable. I recommend RO/DI
water for all sal****er keepers, as it is pure and won't add
to nuisance algae issues.

You can buy RO water at the super market in 1g jugs for $.50
or less. Or at your LFS (local fish store) for .40/gal.

Hydrometers are actually pretty flakey, but I got the
impression you didn't want to sink a lot of money into this
setup. Preferably, you would want to use a refractometer,
which is a neat device that lets you look through it like a
telescope, giving you an accurate reading of sality, and is
adjustable when it needs calibration. I've used one for
about 2 years, and love it.

Marc




Kellbot wrote:

Thanks! Your site has a ton of information! And that bubble tipped
anemone is huuuuge.

This may seem like a silly question, but are all hyrometers the same or
are the aquarium/salinity ones different? I have a triple mass
hydrometer I use for brewing, is this the same thing?

It sounds like sal****er doesn't need the massive weekly water changes
that freshwater does, is that correct? That changes where I can place
my tank. My 30/40 gallon freshwater (its a strange shape so i dont know
the actual gallonage) takes 30% water changes a week... I would die if
I had to do that with buckets.


--
Personal Page:
http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com/oanda/index.html
Business Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com
Marine Hobbyist: http://www.melevsreef.com

"Kellbot" wrote in message
oups.com...
|
| It sounds like sal****er doesn't need the massive weekly water
changes
| that freshwater does, is that correct? That changes where I can
place
| my tank. My 30/40 gallon freshwater (its a strange shape so i dont
know
| the actual gallonage) takes 30% water changes a week... I would die
if
| I had to do that with buckets.

If you run a sump with some macro algae in it, have enough live rock,
and have a high-quality skimmer, few water changes are needed. Some
*are* needed on occasion, as the life in the tank will begin to
deplete minerals and such that was provided by the salt mix, and you
can only do so much with over-the-counter additives.
Example, I just ran the full gamut of tests on my 75reef for a
post I'm about to make, and everything checks out beautifully, with
the exception of alkalinity being lower than I'd like. I haven't done
a water change in well over a month. I generally do a small change
monthly, but I recently started a new job, and have barely had time
to run the magfloat over the glass.
And, just for arguments sake, my only remaining freshwater tank
rarely needs changes either...tons of plants. g

"Billy" wrote in message
...
| If you run a sump with some macro algae in it, have enough live
rock,


Doh! Nano-reef! Not likely to run a sump on it are you? sheepish
grin

Wow, 25% a month is nothing! I guess I'm just used to goldfish, which
are giant ammonia farms. I also tend to err on the side of caution, and
do water changes every week regardless of the nitrate level. My FW tank
is pretty understocked so it rarely gets up to 20ppm. I could easily
to 10% every week on the 10 gallon, since that's just a jug full of
water. The grocery store across the street sells R/O water.

This is kind of a "test tank" for sal****er, I figure eventually I'll
stop moving and have a decent job long enough to get a nice big tank
with all the trimmings (the photos of your in-wall 280 made me drool),
and I'd like to start with something small to make sure it's something
I'm really interested in.
I also need something that's easy to move, since I just moved last may
and will probably move again in another year and half. I'm in college
now, and when I graduate I'll be moving wherever I can find a job.

The sump is very interesting, and I'm considering making one, since it
would increase the total amout of water in the system and help
stabalize the water parameters, and get some of the uglier equipment
out of view, if I understand it correctly. Plus I'm always looking for
an excuse to play with my torch (I'm studying metalsmithing so I have a
few of them). But between the cost of the pump and the cost of the
acrylic, I may have to wait for a few more paychecks for that.

I'm very excited :) I always thought sal****er setups cost $500+
regardless of size, and never really looked into them. But if I
understand correctly, I should be able to keep a few small sal****er
fishies with not too much extra investment. Hooray! It must be time to
start cleaning up that extra tank...

heh, probably not at first, although building one sounds like a lot of
fun to me, so I may add it to my list of projects. :)

I'm glad you are reading my website, as it is there for
people just like you.

Each water change you do, salinity much match exactly, and
temperature should be within 1 degree. However, with a 10g
tank, I'd suggest matching temp exactly as well.

A sump would definitely be an excellent option, and you can
do that with a rubbermaid container to keep costs down.

I think a 29g would be a good size for a guy that moves a lot.

Marc


Kellbot wrote:
Wow, 25% a month is nothing! I guess I'm just used to goldfish, which
are giant ammonia farms. I also tend to err on the side of caution, and
do water changes every week regardless of the nitrate level. My FW tank
is pretty understocked so it rarely gets up to 20ppm. I could easily
to 10% every week on the 10 gallon, since that's just a jug full of
water. The grocery store across the street sells R/O water.

This is kind of a "test tank" for sal****er, I figure eventually I'll
stop moving and have a decent job long enough to get a nice big tank
with all the trimmings (the photos of your in-wall 280 made me drool),
and I'd like to start with something small to make sure it's something
I'm really interested in.
I also need something that's easy to move, since I just moved last may
and will probably move again in another year and half. I'm in college
now, and when I graduate I'll be moving wherever I can find a job.

The sump is very interesting, and I'm considering making one, since it
would increase the total amout of water in the system and help
stabalize the water parameters, and get some of the uglier equipment
out of view, if I understand it correctly. Plus I'm always looking for
an excuse to play with my torch (I'm studying metalsmithing so I have a
few of them). But between the cost of the pump and the cost of the
acrylic, I may have to wait for a few more paychecks for that.

I'm very excited :) I always thought sal****er setups cost $500+
regardless of size, and never really looked into them. But if I
understand correctly, I should be able to keep a few small sal****er
fishies with not too much extra investment. Hooray! It must be time to
start cleaning up that extra tank...


--
Personal Page:
http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com/oanda/index.html
Business Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com
Marine Hobbyist: http://www.melevsreef.com

a rubbermaid, eh? What do you use for baffles then? Will the acrylic
bond to it?

I"ve also been looking at designs for DIY protein skimmers, since most
of the ones for sale are overkill for a 10g.

Went down to the LFS this evening, its' really nice and they helped me
figure out exactly how much stuff would cost, what i could keep in the
tank, etc.

"Kellbot" wrote in message
oups.com...
|
| Went down to the LFS this evening, its' really nice and they helped
me
| figure out exactly how much stuff would cost, what i could keep in
the
| tank, etc.
|

Word of caution, even the best LFS is there for one main reason...to
make money. A good LFS won't sell you that which you don't need, but
a store that good is rare.

You can use multiple containers in the sump, with each unit
overflowing into a larger one. This cascading effect is
similar to the baffle routine.

There is a DIY skimmer in ReefCentral.com's DIY Forum called
"Cheap as Pie DIY Skimmer" that costs about $20 to build.

Marc


Kellbot wrote:

a rubbermaid, eh? What do you use for baffles then? Will the acrylic
bond to it?

I"ve also been looking at designs for DIY protein skimmers, since most
of the ones for sale are overkill for a 10g.

Went down to the LFS this evening, its' really nice and they helped me
figure out exactly how much stuff would cost, what i could keep in the
tank, etc.


--
Personal Page:
http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com/oanda/index.html
Business Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com
Marine Hobbyist: http://www.melevsreef.com

great, thanks for the link.

My only concern with all of this is the noise... two pumps (one for the
sump, one for the skimmer) plus cascading water might not be the best
option for me, since the tank will be in my bedroom. How loud is all
this stuff?

The pumps should run very quietly, and most skimmer do have
a soft rumble to them.

To deal with the cascading water, you'll want a silencer in
the overflow box on the back of the tank:
http://www.melevsreef.com/plumbing/90a.jpg
http://www.melevsreef.com/plumbing/90b.jpg
http://www.melevsreef.com/plumbing/90c.jpg

And in the sump:
http://www.melevsreef.com/plumbing/pvc_cut.jpg

Marc


Kellbot wrote:
great, thanks for the link.

My only concern with all of this is the noise... two pumps (one for the
sump, one for the skimmer) plus cascading water might not be the best
option for me, since the tank will be in my bedroom. How loud is all
this stuff?


--
Personal Page:
http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com/oanda/index.html
Business Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com
Marine Hobbyist: http://www.melevsreef.com

"Kellbot" wrote in message
oups.com...
Thanks! Your site has a ton of information! And that bubble tipped
anemone is huuuuge.

This may seem like a silly question, but are all hyrometers the same or
are the aquarium/salinity ones different? I have a triple mass
hydrometer I use for brewing, is this the same thing?

It sounds like sal****er doesn't need the massive weekly water changes
that freshwater does, is that correct? That changes where I can place
my tank. My 30/40 gallon freshwater (its a strange shape so i dont know
the actual gallonage) takes 30% water changes a week... I would die if
I had to do that with buckets.

I don't know what you are doing with your freshwater tank that it needs such a
massive water change every week, unless it is overstocked. I've raised fish
(salt and freshwater) for over thirty years, and have never had to make water
changes like that. Salt water tanks need a lot more care than freshwater tanks.
Of that, you can be cure.

I could get away with less, but my goldfish are pretty messy and I like
to vacuum the tank thoroughly every week to keep it looking nice.
Usually by the time I'm satisfied with the cleanup efforts I've tanken
out 25-35% of the water. It amazes me how 2 fish who are under 2" and
not overfed can make so much waste. I always wonder if they've been
eating the Java Moss, although I've never seen any evidence of it. My
nitrates are always nice and low though.

I guess I also got used to doing big regular changes on my small tank,
which had a nitrate problem (some combination of no plants and having a
UGF to trap crud and decompose it, I think).

My GF tank is bare bottom because I don't have sufficient water
pressure to clean the gravel well with my 25 ft python. There's a lot
of debate on rec.aquaria.freshwater.goldfish about gravel, to the point
where it's as much of a religious "my fish love gravel / gravel kills
fish" ****ing contest, but my fish are happy with gravel less.

Since my smaller tank is higher up I don't have problems getting
suction, so cleaning the substrate shouldn't be a problem.

Don't worry though, I have no delusions that sal****er tanks are low
maintainence or inexpensive. :) But I am pleasantly suprised to find
that if you're good with tools and have some free time it doesn't have
to be a hobby reserved for people with thousands of dollars to spare.

yep, the grocery store across the street sells it.
Although I still haven't figured out how long it would take for the
cost of a RO filter for my tap to equal the amout I'd spend on bottles
of water. Since I don't pay for water in my apartment, that's not an
issue.

Wow, that happens in the freshwater community? We have that
in the sal****er community about DSB (deep sand bed)!!! LOL

Marc


Kellbot wrote:

There's a lot
of debate on rec.aquaria.freshwater.goldfish about gravel, to the point
where it's as much of a religious "my fish love gravel / gravel kills
fish" ****ing contest, but my fish are happy with gravel less.



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My fish want to be back home on the real reef , but they are not going ,lol

--


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www.nydiver.com
ONLINE meeting rooms



"Marc Levenson" wrote in message
om...
Wow, that happens in the freshwater community? We have that in the
sal****er community about DSB (deep sand bed)!!! LOL

Marc


Kellbot wrote:

There's a lot
of debate on rec.aquaria.freshwater.goldfish about gravel, to the point
where it's as much of a religious "my fish love gravel / gravel kills
fish" ****ing contest, but my fish are happy with gravel less.



--
Personal Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com/oanda/index.html
Business Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com
Marine Hobbyist: http://www.melevsreef.com

One caveat.... as you are not putting any invertebrates in the tank you can
use a tank that has had copper used in it. Now if you ever think you may put
an anemone in it then yea.... make sure you have never used copper.

"Marc Levenson" wrote in message
om...
Hi Kelly(?),

A 10g is very small, but doable. Here is what you need:

A tank that has never had copper used in it.
A simple light, since you only want a couple of fish and no corals.
A small piece of Live Rock would be nice for the fish to seek shelter
near, and give you more to look at than just crushed coral
A heater
A powerhead, pointed up slightly to ripple the surface.
A HOB filter is fine. A skilter is a poor man's filter and protein
skimmer built into one, and can be modified to run relatively silently.
Salt.
Test kits for ammonia, nitrite,nitrate.
Thermometer & Hydrometer.
Cleaning magnet or scrubbing pad that has never been used with soap.
Frozen food or flake food (preferable both, to vary the fish's diet.

You don't need an UGF, as they don't benefit a sal****er tank at all. I
had one in my 29g for years, and nitrates were always up. Once I ripped
it out finally, the problem was solvable.

For fun, read this brief overview:
http://www.melevsreef.com/overview.htm

A clownfish will be absolutely fine without an anemone, and I've had a
mated pair in a 10g for 1.5 years without any other creatures. They are
now in a 29g for the past 5 months with a pair of eels, and a ton of LR
(Live Rock).

If you increase your lighting to something better later, you can add a few
easy corals, such as mushrooms.

You should really take the time to navigate my site.
http://www.melevsreef.com

Be sure to click on Hidden Treasures!

Also, there is a site called http://www.nano-reef.com/ for smaller tanks.

Marc




wrote:
Allright, I've been considering converting my spare 10 gallon
freshwater to a small sal****er tank, and considering what sort of fish
I would like to start with. My roomates really like "nemo fish," which
I believe are clownfish (not having ever seen "finding nemo" I'm not
sure).

From what I've read clownfish are fairly hardy, but what I haven't been
able to discern is whether or not an anemone is necessary. I searched
the newsgroup back a few years, and some posts say the clownfish will
die without a host aneome, others say they will be fine.

I don't really want to have corals/anemones in this tank, it just
sounds like an awful lot of work and specialized equipment. So if
clownfish desperately need them, I'll have to pick a different fish to
start with.
I'm also slightly confused by names, is there another fish that looks
similar to a clownfish but has a different name? or is there an
alternative term for them? I was in the LFS recently, and saw a fish
that looked like a clownfish to me, but was less than an inch long, and
labeled as something else (can't remember what though).

It'll be at least a month before I really start setting it up, so I
have lots of time to research. I've been going through the old usenet
archives (hooray for google archiving) and a few websites for research,
but any specific advice for my setup is welcome :)

I currently have a 10 gallon tank (cycled) with an undergravel and
Hang-on-back style filter. I think I will use crushed coral as a
substrate, because I already have a *ton* of it (I use it to maintain
the pH in my freshwater tank). I'm already quite familiar with the UGF
debate, but are there any extra caveats for sal****er tanks? I'm not
intensely attatched to it (its practically a religious argument for
some folks) but I did find that my water parameters were a lot more
stable after installing it.

I'm also trying to get a feel for how much this would cost. I have a
feeling I can't afford an amazing ideal setup, but I would like my tank
to be sufficient.

From my understanding I need to add live rock and a protien skimmer to
my setup, and pick up a hydrometer to measure the salinity. I already
have test kits. I also have a heater for the tank, and a ridiculous
number of air pumps ( i swear they breed). So I should be able to
convert my setup to SW for about $100-$150?

The other thing I haven't seen is the frequency/quantity of water
changes. I'm used to doing 30% weekly changes on my 40gallong
freshwater tank.

This ended up a ridiculously long post! My main concern though is the
clownfish question, I'm sure I'll dig up answers to the rest of these
as I do my research.


--
Personal Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com/oanda/index.html
Business Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com
Marine Hobbyist: http://www.melevsreef.com

yeah, gravel and undergravel filters are the favorite arguments. I've
decided that both have their merits and drawbacks and that I'll go with
whichever one suits my needs better.

I got the tank set up today, or at least I filled it with water,
substrate, and a few peices of live rock rubble.
Despite washing the crushed coral substrate the water is stil
ridiculously cloudy, I can't see more than a few inches into the tank!
The LFS owner assured me that it was just particles of crushed coral
and that it would not harm the life on the live rock, but it does make
it hard to see any of the cool things/critters that might be happening
on my live rock.

Is there anything I can do to help clear this? I know they sell
chemicals for freshwater that help clump the particles together so they
are more likely to get caught by the filter. Are there similar things
for sal****er? Although I've always been of the "dont add chemicals to
a tank unless you NEED to" mindset, so perhaps I should just wait for
it to clear on its own?

One more thing I have yet to understand about the sal****er cycle
despite reading...
I've read that you're not supposed to "feed" the cycle the way one
might feed a freshwater tank, that the live rock will cycle things on
its own.
So what's producing the ammonia for it to cycle?

I wouldn't worry about clearing the water with a chemical.
It will clear on its own over the next couple of days. If
you have a HOB filter, you could use that to trap some
particulates, rinsing out the pad several times over 48 hours.

To start a cycle in a tank, you can toss in a faw (dead)
shrimp from the deli, and let it create ammonia in the tank.
Then remove it and wait the three week period for the
cycle to end.

Marc


Kellbot wrote:
yeah, gravel and undergravel filters are the favorite arguments. I've
decided that both have their merits and drawbacks and that I'll go with
whichever one suits my needs better.

I got the tank set up today, or at least I filled it with water,
substrate, and a few peices of live rock rubble.
Despite washing the crushed coral substrate the water is stil
ridiculously cloudy, I can't see more than a few inches into the tank!
The LFS owner assured me that it was just particles of crushed coral
and that it would not harm the life on the live rock, but it does make
it hard to see any of the cool things/critters that might be happening
on my live rock.

Is there anything I can do to help clear this? I know they sell
chemicals for freshwater that help clump the particles together so they
are more likely to get caught by the filter. Are there similar things
for sal****er? Although I've always been of the "dont add chemicals to
a tank unless you NEED to" mindset, so perhaps I should just wait for
it to clear on its own?

One more thing I have yet to understand about the sal****er cycle
despite reading...
I've read that you're not supposed to "feed" the cycle the way one
might feed a freshwater tank, that the live rock will cycle things on
its own.
So what's producing the ammonia for it to cycle?


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