yellow lab
 

I have a 26g now with two keyholes, a golden ram, a few serpae tetras,
rasboras and one yellow. I had two but one died a few weeks ago.
Most are juveniles. I'd like to get another lab for a "buddy".

First of all do I need another one(not interested in breeding), or
will this one be happy with it's tank companions. Was pretty shy, but
is now joining in with the others.

I think I have a female. If I did get a male will it upset the
"ambiance" of my tank?

TIA



Larry

Those fish shouldn't be mixed together!!!!!!!!!! TOTALLY different water
requirements!!!! Aswell as diet.

--
Craig
________________________________
www.CanadianCray.tk
www.Bluecrayfish.com
"Larry" wrote in message
...
I have a 26g now with two keyholes, a golden ram, a few serpae tetras,
rasboras and one yellow. I had two but one died a few weeks ago.
Most are juveniles. I'd like to get another lab for a "buddy".

First of all do I need another one(not interested in breeding), or
will this one be happy with it's tank companions. Was pretty shy, but
is now joining in with the others.

I think I have a female. If I did get a male will it upset the
"ambiance" of my tank?

TIA



Larry

CanadianCray wrote:
Those fish shouldn't be mixed together!!!!!!!!!! TOTALLY different water
requirements!!!! Aswell as diet.

"Larry" wrote in message

I have a 26g now with two keyholes, a golden ram, a few serpae tetras,
rasboras and one yellow. I had two but one died a few weeks ago.
Most are juveniles. I'd like to get another lab for a "buddy".

First of all do I need another one(not interested in breeding), or
will this one be happy with it's tank companions. Was pretty shy, but
is now joining in with the others.

I think I have a female. If I did get a male will it upset the
"ambiance" of my tank?

TIA


Such a helpful post from Cray. And even top-posted to break my
newsreader. True, yellow labs prefer hard water, and the rest of the
fish soft. But you're wrong about foods. Yellow labs are insectivorous
open-water fish so will be fine on the same diet as rams and keyholes.
And why holler uselessly about an established tank?

Larry,
First, you might see if you can figure why your yellow lab died. You
may have soft or acidic water which great for all your fish except the
yellow lab. If your water is at or below pH 7, I wouldn't add another lab.

You can try adding a male to your tank. It shouldn't be a problem while
the fish are small, However, expect some chaos if the labs decide to
breed despite your intents. They're mouthbrooders so they don't wreak
quite as much havoc as other mbuna but they do get aggressive nonetheless.

Cichlids don't generally need a "buddy" though. They are quite happy as
the king or queen of their own tiny little world. And you don't have to
worry about a lone lab pairing up and breeding.

--
__ Elaine T __
__' http://eethomp.com/fish.html '__

Hi Elaine,

Such a helpful post from Cray. And even top-posted to break my
newsreader.

Love your style ;-}

snip
Cichlids don't generally need a "buddy" though. They are quite happy as
the king or queen of their own tiny little world. And you don't have to
worry about a lone lab pairing up and breeding.


I was going to ask Craig where I made mistake but decided to check out
the specs on the fish. Most seemed compatible with my soft water- ph
about 7.5-8. Specs said all my fish would eat almost anything so I
just left it at that. You are right about the lab and soft water.
Hope he/she adjusts.

Maybe I can ask you or others about food selection. Right now I mixed
some veggie flakes, tetra mix type flakes and a pinch of dried blood
worms for each small meal. Any other suggestions?

Thanks Elaine and others who might help me on the food thing.

All the best,

Larry
Ontario

"Such a helpful post from Cray. And even top-posted to break my
newsreader. "

This I don't quite understand, but anyway.

Labidochromis caeruleus (Electric Yellow) likes hard alkaline water around
76-82 degrees with a ph of at least 8 but preferably 8.2. It is really not a
good idea to play around with a fish's PH. Most people don't understand how
PH scale works. The pH scale runs from 0 (acidic) to 14 (alkaline), with
neutral pH 7 in the middle. The pH scale is logarithmic, which means, for
example, that pH 5 is ten times more acidic than pH 6. So by taking a fish
that likes 8.2 & placing it in a tank with a Ph of 7 or 7.5 you are
basically placing it in water that is 10X more acidic than they are supposed
to be in. How would you like that. Also in the wild they live between 6 to
120 feet where they feed on mostly insects & snails. So feeding them a
traditional tropical fish diet is not great.

I did not mean to sound crass before but I think people should provide the
proper environment for their fish if they are going to keep them.

Craig
________________________________
www.CanadianCray.tk
www.Bluecrayfish.com
"Larry" wrote in message
...
Hi Elaine,

Such a helpful post from Cray. And even top-posted to break my
newsreader.

Love your style ;-}

snip
Cichlids don't generally need a "buddy" though. They are quite happy as
the king or queen of their own tiny little world. And you don't have to
worry about a lone lab pairing up and breeding.


I was going to ask Craig where I made mistake but decided to check out
the specs on the fish. Most seemed compatible with my soft water- ph
about 7.5-8. Specs said all my fish would eat almost anything so I
just left it at that. You are right about the lab and soft water.
Hope he/she adjusts.

Maybe I can ask you or others about food selection. Right now I mixed
some veggie flakes, tetra mix type flakes and a pinch of dried blood
worms for each small meal. Any other suggestions?

Thanks Elaine and others who might help me on the food thing.

All the best,

Larry
Ontario

CanadianCray wrote:
"Such a helpful post from Cray. And even top-posted to break my

newsreader. "


This I don't quite understand, but anyway.

Labidochromis caeruleus (Electric Yellow) likes hard alkaline water around
76-82 degrees with a ph of at least 8 but preferably 8.2. It is really not a
good idea to play around with a fish's PH. Most people don't understand how
PH scale works. The pH scale runs from 0 (acidic) to 14 (alkaline), with
neutral pH 7 in the middle. The pH scale is logarithmic, which means, for
example, that pH 5 is ten times more acidic than pH 6. So by taking a fish
that likes 8.2 & placing it in a tank with a Ph of 7 or 7.5 you are
basically placing it in water that is 10X more acidic than they are supposed
to be in. How would you like that. Also in the wild they live between 6 to
120 feet where they feed on mostly insects & snails. So feeding them a
traditional tropical fish diet is not great.

I did not mean to sound crass before but I think people should provide the
proper environment for their fish if they are going to keep them.


The tradition on usenet is to post at the bottom of the previous
message. It happens that some newsreaders don't even handle messages
posted above the previous one very well. I had to cut and paste by hand
into Thunderbird to reply to your previous post.

First, one has to ask what the proper environment is for a tank-raised
fish that is probably many generations away from the wild fish. That
fish may have been tapwater pH for all its life - there's no way of
knowing. As for diet, I bet that Larry's fish was raised on prepared
foods. Insects and snails as a natural diet means it can be kept on a
normal or high-protein flake with maybe freeze-dried or frozen
bloodworms as a treat. Tetras, rams and keyholes will do fine on a
similar diet.

As for pH, fish can adapt pretty well to changes. Yes, there are
10-fold changes for each step on the scale, but near neutrality you're
talking about a shift in protons from 10^-7 M to 10^-8 M. There are
many other things in tankwater that can mess with a fish faster than pH
in the range of about 6.5-8.

Now, I'm with you that fish kept at pH ranges, temperature, hardness,
etc. near what they are found in in the wild can live longer and stay
healthier. However, I've read a million stories on this NG of fish
thriving and even breeding in conditions you would never think could
possibly work. Also, the rift lakes are unusual in their stability.
Most streams and rivers where FW fish are found vary seasonally in
hardness, pH, temperature, food availability, and probably a half-dozen
things I haven't even though of.

Anyway, once someone has purchased a fish and has it in the tank, I
believe that providing concrete suggestions for the particular situation
in the tank is the most help in improving fishkeepers' skill and fishes
lives. Thus, my reaction to your first post.

--
__ Elaine T __
__' http://eethomp.com/fish.html '__

Larry wrote:
snip
I was going to ask Craig where I made mistake but decided to check out
the specs on the fish. Most seemed compatible with my soft water- ph
about 7.5-8. Specs said all my fish would eat almost anything so I
just left it at that. You are right about the lab and soft water.
Hope he/she adjusts.

Maybe I can ask you or others about food selection. Right now I mixed
some veggie flakes, tetra mix type flakes and a pinch of dried blood
worms for each small meal. Any other suggestions?


pH 7.5 to 8 doesn't sound so soft to me. Do you get any residue in your
shower or on drinking glasses? You might ask your LFS if they've tested
the local tap water and whether it's soft or hard.

I'm not sure you should be feeding the algae flakes, but I'm curious to
hear what others think. You didn't mention any algae eating fish in
your first post. I'm sure your fish relish the dried bloodworms and
they're great for insectivores like your yellow lab.

I generally maintain all the fish you did mention on TetraMin and/or OSI
freshwater flakes with treats of frozen blooworms. I also like Tetra
ColorBits for midwater feeders like keyholes and rams.

--
__ Elaine T __
__' http://eethomp.com/fish.html '__

pH 7.5 to 8 doesn't sound so soft to me. Do you get any residue in your
shower or on drinking glasses? You might ask your LFS if they've tested
the local tap water and whether it's soft or hard.

I'm not sure you should be feeding the algae flakes, but I'm curious to
hear what others think. You didn't mention any algae eating fish in
your first post. I'm sure your fish relish the dried bloodworms and
they're great for insectivores like your yellow lab.

snip

Thanks Elaine,

Played chemist (my wife thought maybe vacuuming the house would have
been a better use of my time), and here are my specs.

ph 8.0
GH 1
KH 11

I have soft water because of the water softener attachment if that
explains anything. I have no algae eaters yet. Two corys though.
LFS sold me the veggie flakes (not sure why). I'll discontinue them.
Fish seem to prefer the coloured ones anyway ;-}

All the best,

Larry
Ontario

Labs are insectivorous(spelling?)? Everything I read said they need a
diet that consists mostly of vegetable matter. I have 5 in a 29 with a
pleco, and have been feeding them cichlid pelets for ages. I recently
switched from them to using mostly crushed up algae disks (which say the
main ingredient is Spirulina) and they started breeding. I would agree
with what I read and argue that a diet low in protein and high in
vegetable matter is better for labs.

I have also read that a lot of protein in a Yellow Lab's diet will cause
it to catch the untreatable and often fatal Malawi bloat.

Larry, you might consider a softened leaf of lettuce at least once in a
while. If you can weight it to get it down to the lab, I'm sure she
(which she is sure to be if she isn't showing any black) will really
appreciate it.

I agree that a male would be a good addition to your tank, but don't
expect them to breed with a pH of seven. They really should have a
higher pH, and in the long run I don't know what the low pH and hardness
your rams require is going to do to their immune system.

I hope the best for you, but let me go on the record as agreeing that
you probably should not be keeping the labs in those kind of conditions.
They are really cool fish, and I would suggest setting up a 29 with some
slate and coral sand for substrate, and they will more than likely
breed. My lab tank that I have set up like that is my favorite of all of
them that I have. Good luck with your fish.



--
Posted via CichlidFish.com
http://www.cichlidfish.com/portal/forums

Deepseafisher wrote:
Labs are insectivorous(spelling?)? Everything I read said they need a
diet that consists mostly of vegetable matter. I have 5 in a 29 with a
pleco, and have been feeding them cichlid pelets for ages. I recently
switched from them to using mostly crushed up algae disks (which say the
main ingredient is Spirulina) and they started breeding. I would agree
with what I read and argue that a diet low in protein and high in
vegetable matter is better for labs.

I have also read that a lot of protein in a Yellow Lab's diet will cause
it to catch the untreatable and often fatal Malawi bloat.

Larry, you might consider a softened leaf of lettuce at least once in a
while. If you can weight it to get it down to the lab, I'm sure she
(which she is sure to be if she isn't showing any black) will really
appreciate it.

I wonder why the books say insectivore since yours are obviously
omnivores and require algae? How confusing. Thanks for posting better
diet info. I was guessing based on the protein level in an insect-only
diet.

--
__ Elaine T __
__' http://eethomp.com/fish.html '__

What books said they are insectivores? I could be wrong-I don't feed
them exclusively vegetable matter(I feed spirulina one day, off brand
"Cichlid Pellets" the next, and a tropical flake food once in a while).
They didn't start breeding until the spriulina though...that may point
to something. I am going to do some more research on it when I get a chance-
I did all my electric yellow research when I was still really new to all
of this, and may just remember wrong.



--
Posted via CichlidFish.com
http://www.cichlidfish.com/portal/forums

Deepseafisher wrote:
What books said they are insectivores? I could be wrong-I don't feed
them exclusively vegetable matter(I feed spirulina one day, off brand
"Cichlid Pellets" the next, and a tropical flake food once in a while).
They didn't start breeding until the spriulina though...that may point
to something. I am going to do some more research on it when I get a chance-
I did all my electric yellow research when I was still really new to all
of this, and may just remember wrong.


A Fishkeepers Guide to African Cichlids by Paul Loiselle lists all
Labidochromis spp. as micropredators and says to feed high-protein
foods. He doesn't address the yellow lab specifically. Then I found
this listing on the web and figured Loiselle was right about the
specific species. http://www.thetropicaltank.co.uk/Fishindx/caeruleu.htm

Once I read your post, I looked harder and found other articles that say
omnivore. http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/l_caeruleus.php is by
far the best article I have found and explains the interesting history
of the fish in the aquarium trade.

I think our best info by far is your fish breeding after being fed
spirulina. I'll take that over anything on the web or in a book!

--
__ Elaine T __
__' http://eethomp.com/fish.html '__

:) Ok this is not on the main topic. However after reading the posts,
:and noting the relationship of fish in the wildand what they eat. I
:would like to point out, that, what holds true for a fish in its
:natural habitate, may be extremly different, for a fish that is in an
:aquarium. In the wild the fish have developed a nitch, where they live
:and feed. However in an aquarium setting (and most fish here are not
:captured in the wild any more, but bred in captivity) they become much
:more oppertunistic at feeding. For an example of this, I use my own
:fish, Oscars, and plecos. The plecos, while for the most part eat algy,
:mine have found a taste for raw meat. They love the bloodworms, and
:beafheart, it seems more than the Oscars. One of my Oscars, loves the
:spirulina disks. I have not done, any looking around online, I am just
:basing my opinion on many post I have read, and my experence with my
:own fishkeeping.



--
Posted via CichlidFish.com
http://www.cichlidfish.com/portal/forums

wrote:
A Fishkeepers Guide to African Cichlids by Paul Loiselle lists all Labidochromis spp. as
micropredators and says to feed high-protein foods. He doesn't address the yellow lab specifically.
Then I found this listing on the web and figured Loiselle was right about the specific species.
http://www.thetropicaltank.co.uk/Fishindx/caeruleu.htm
Once I read your post, I looked harder and found other articles that say
omnivore. http://www.cichlid- forum.com/articles/l_caeruleus.php is by
far the best article I have found and explains the interesting history
of the fish in the aquarium trade.
I think our best info by far is your fish breeding after being fed
spirulina. I'll take that over anything on the web or in a book!

Elaine T wrote:


I did some more looking into this, and read somewhere that many fish
that are considered insectivores are really more opportunistic in the
wild than anything. While labs undoubtebly eat insects in the wild, they
don't often have the chance.

Just a thought...

I am glad that I started with the spirulina though. The effects have
been great.



--
Posted via CichlidFish.com
http://www.cichlidfish.com/portal/forums

Actually many species of pleco's in the wild change diet depending on their
age. When they are small they eat mostly vegetation because they can easily
find it & it will sustain them. When they get larger they tend to switch to
meat due to the fact its hard to sustain a larger body with just veggies.
That's why a lot of aquarium plecos switch to going after fish or eating
meat when older. Most large pleco don't even bother eating algae.

--
Craig
________________________________
www.CanadianCray.tk
www.Bluecrayfish.com
"Fuzzy" -DONTEMAIL wrote in message
...
:) Ok this is not on the main topic. However after reading the posts,
:and noting the relationship of fish in the wildand what they eat. I
:would like to point out, that, what holds true for a fish in its
:natural habitate, may be extremly different, for a fish that is in an
:aquarium. In the wild the fish have developed a nitch, where they live
:and feed. However in an aquarium setting (and most fish here are not
:captured in the wild any more, but bred in captivity) they become much
:more oppertunistic at feeding. For an example of this, I use my own
:fish, Oscars, and plecos. The plecos, while for the most part eat algy,
:mine have found a taste for raw meat. They love the bloodworms, and
:beafheart, it seems more than the Oscars. One of my Oscars, loves the
:spirulina disks. I have not done, any looking around online, I am just
:basing my opinion on many post I have read, and my experence with my
:own fishkeeping.



--
Posted via CichlidFish.com
http://www.cichlidfish.com/portal/forums

:D It is funny to watch, they sort of suck it in, they will get a peice,
be it on the top of the water, (when they do this, they actually swim
upside down, and grab the peice on the surface from underneath) or one
that floated to the bottom. They just take in there mouth, and sort of
suck it to nothing. If I hadn't seen it, I would never belive it!



--
Posted via CichlidFish.com
http://www.cichlidfish.com/portal/forums

Yeah, this is a bit off-topic, but interesting none-the-less. Your pleco likes meat better than spirulina?:eek: Thats hillarious!!! I didn't know they could even eat meat. Well, ya learn something new every day. Just more proof that the important part in feeding fish is researching them and fullfilling what they need instead of whatever they'll eat best. Talk about an insane pleco, though!



--
Posted via CichlidFish.com
http://www.cichlidfish.com/portal/forums

If it's HBH 8 veggie flake then it's a perfectly fine food for them, mine
thrive on it intersperces with outher foods of course. I'd be more cautious
about the bloodworm though I guess an insectivore might be less susceptible
to the problems other rift lake cichlids can have with them.
My water is also soft(ish) but with a high pH, as is lake Malawi, where the
labs come from originally, so long as there's enough kH to keep things
stable then I think you should be OK, some salt added and some marble or
coral crush substrate would make it a bit harder which wouldn't hurt from
where your water is right now.
My real concern is the 26 gallon part, I know there' anecdotal evidence that
labs are ok in smaller tanks but mine were pretty agressive even in thier
55G and didn't settle (read stop killing each other) till they got into the
7 x 2 x2. However I did have a dispopoortionate amount of male fish which
would definately make them meaner.
I still fear that even being the only of it's kind once it gets bigger other
fish might find thier buttocks being handed to them.

My yellows showed no signs of bloat when pseudotropheus species were
dropping all around them, I keep mine with haps now and the diet has them
spawning constantly.

wrote:
My yellows showed no signs of bloat when pseudotropheus species were
dropping all around them, I keep mine with haps now and the diet has
them spawning constantly. Really? Thats interesting. What are you
feeding (I don't know what typical Hap diet is...)? Mine wouldn't spawn
until they had a large vegetable staple in their diet. My real concern
is the 26 gallon part, I know there' anecdotal evidence that labs areok
in smaller tanks but mine were pretty agressive even in thier 55G I have
had no problem with keeping 6 of them in a 29. I suppose it really
depends upon temperment of an individual fish. I am always reading about
super aggressive fish (like red devils) that for some reason or another
aren't programmed to be killers and end up being kept easily in
community tanks. I guess the opposite could be true as well. I still
fear that even being the only of it's kind once it gets bigger other
fish might find thier buttocks being handed to them.


I agree completely. However, you said the to add crushed coral to a tank
with Rams in it...I've never kept Rams personally, but have looked into
it. Everything I read about them says soft water and low pH, an entirely
opposite set of water conditions that I read about keeping Labs in. My
advice (and I hate to seem to be in direct confliction with what someone
else said) would be to not change your water conditions at all for the
sake of the Rams, Larry. Only remember that I have no personal
experience with Rams. Maybe someone who has some experience with keeping
rams in harder, higher pH conditions could reply and give Larry some
advice about what to do.



--
Posted via CichlidFish.com
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OT

why does top posting matter?

I hate having to scroll down to find the reply to the post i just read . . .

top posting lets me read in sequence . . .

I've always wondered why people make such a big deal about it.

Question on chemistry . . .


if pH 7 is neutral (neither acidic or alkaline)

and pH 8 is 10x more alkaline

10 X 0(neutral) = 0


back to reality (just saying 10X is not really our experience of the log
scale of pH)

a pH between 6.5 and 7.5 hardly affects the biology
my experience is that a consistent pH is far mor important (for fresh water)
than being "right on the number"





"CanadianCray" wrote in message
...
"Such a helpful post from Cray. And even top-posted to break my
newsreader. "

This I don't quite understand, but anyway.

Labidochromis caeruleus (Electric Yellow) likes hard alkaline water around
76-82 degrees with a ph of at least 8 but preferably 8.2. It is really not
a
good idea to play around with a fish's PH. Most people don't understand
how
PH scale works. The pH scale runs from 0 (acidic) to 14 (alkaline), with
neutral pH 7 in the middle. The pH scale is logarithmic, which means, for
example, that pH 5 is ten times more acidic than pH 6. So by taking a fish
that likes 8.2 & placing it in a tank with a Ph of 7 or 7.5 you are
basically placing it in water that is 10X more acidic than they are
supposed
to be in. How would you like that. Also in the wild they live between 6 to
120 feet where they feed on mostly insects & snails. So feeding them a
traditional tropical fish diet is not great.

I did not mean to sound crass before but I think people should provide the
proper environment for their fish if they are going to keep them.

Craig
________________________________
www.CanadianCray.tk
www.Bluecrayfish.com
"Larry" wrote in message
...
Hi Elaine,

Such a helpful post from Cray. And even top-posted to break my
newsreader.

Love your style ;-}

snip
Cichlids don't generally need a "buddy" though. They are quite happy as
the king or queen of their own tiny little world. And you don't have to
worry about a lone lab pairing up and breeding.


I was going to ask Craig where I made mistake but decided to check out
the specs on the fish. Most seemed compatible with my soft water- ph
about 7.5-8. Specs said all my fish would eat almost anything so I
just left it at that. You are right about the lab and soft water.
Hope he/she adjusts.

Maybe I can ask you or others about food selection. Right now I mixed
some veggie flakes, tetra mix type flakes and a pinch of dried blood
worms for each small meal. Any other suggestions?

Thanks Elaine and others who might help me on the food thing.

All the best,

Larry
Ontario

a comment on live food

I raise snails in all my tanks.
Malaysian Trumpet Snails (MTS) are the best for not messing with my live
plants.

RamsHorn are best in an unplanted tank (or a tank wiuth javamoss which grows
faster than anything can eat it)

I daily crush a few snails against the glass as a "live food" treat for my
fish.

Because it is raised in the tank it is gauranteed to have no foreign
parasites or diseases.

Clown loaches seem to eventually get all snails but MTS

weather loaches let a few RamsHorn live, but not overpopulate the tank.







"Phil" wrote in message
...
If it's HBH 8 veggie flake then it's a perfectly fine food for them, mine
thrive on it intersperces with outher foods of course. I'd be more
cautious
about the bloodworm though I guess an insectivore might be less
susceptible
to the problems other rift lake cichlids can have with them.
My water is also soft(ish) but with a high pH, as is lake Malawi, where
the
labs come from originally, so long as there's enough kH to keep things
stable then I think you should be OK, some salt added and some marble or
coral crush substrate would make it a bit harder which wouldn't hurt from
where your water is right now.
My real concern is the 26 gallon part, I know there' anecdotal evidence
that
labs are ok in smaller tanks but mine were pretty agressive even in thier
55G and didn't settle (read stop killing each other) till they got into
the
7 x 2 x2. However I did have a dispopoortionate amount of male fish which
would definately make them meaner.
I still fear that even being the only of it's kind once it gets bigger
other
fish might find thier buttocks being handed to them.

Gordon James wrote:

friendly_mudflinging

why does top posting matter?
See below ;)


I hate having to scroll down to find the reply to the post i just read . . .
I hate having to scroll down, reading everything in my path just to know
what people are responding to

top posting lets me read in sequence . . .
not top posting lets you (and everyone else) know -exactly- what you're
commenting on, without having to cross reference to 10'ish odd posts below.
/friendly_mudflinging


I've always wondered why people make such a big deal about it.
hope this explained it - atleast in part.

/Tommi