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Overdriving NO Tubes
Is anyone here familiar with overdriving NO fluorescent tubes?
I met a DIYer today (Marc, that's the guy I told you about with those5 stage RO/DI units) that does this to his lamps. Apparently you replace the balast with a higher output Electronic ballast (About $10 from home depot) and it can double even triple the wattage of the bulb. It operates at a higher frequency and does not shorten the life of the bulb much at all. He's had a setup with a twin 30w 36" fixture that with this balast is putting out 130watts after 1 year. Will this trickery work for marine aquaria and corals??? ~Mort |
Overdriving NO Tubes
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Overdriving NO Tubes
"Alex Kilpatrick"
wrote in message ... Yep, it works. I've done it. Have you measured the light output? What are your results compared to nominal wattage electronic balasts? I know going up with frequency (from magnetic to electronic) makes the difference, but I have never heard positive opinions about overdriving tubes powerwise. The hardest part was hunting around to find 6500K 3' tubes. How is overdriving influencing the color rendering/temperature? Do you have any ways to measure effects of your changes at home? |
Overdriving NO Tubes
Mort,
VHO bulbs must be replaced every six months. So if you want to save some money, you can buy Sylvania or Philips 6500K bulbs at Home Depot or Lowes for ~$4.50 each. Great price. IceCap ballasts will overdrive them from 40w to 110w each, but it will shorten their useable lifespan. In six months, their usefullness is over. But that is okay!! It's time to replace them anyway. If you don't change out your bulbs on schedule, you can end up with older bulbs that shift in color spectrum which fuel algae outbreaks. VHO - 6 months MH & PC - 12 months. Marc Mort wrote: Is anyone here familiar with overdriving NO fluorescent tubes? I met a DIYer today (Marc, that's the guy I told you about with those5 stage RO/DI units) that does this to his lamps. Apparently you replace the balast with a higher output Electronic ballast (About $10 from home depot) and it can double even triple the wattage of the bulb. It operates at a higher frequency and does not shorten the life of the bulb much at all. He's had a setup with a twin 30w 36" fixture that with this balast is putting out 130watts after 1 year. Will this trickery work for marine aquaria and corals??? ~Mort -- Personal Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com/oanda/index.html Business Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com Marine Hobbyist: http://www.melevsreef.com |
Overdriving NO Tubes
"Marc Levenson" wrote in message ...
IceCap ballasts will overdrive them from 40w to 110w each, but it will shorten their useable lifespan. In six months, their usefullness is over. But that is okay!! It's time to replace them anyway. I do not understand the reasoning here... If you have to change bulbs every 6 months in their nominal working conditions, and overdriving is shortening their life significantly, then when you overdrive you need to replace them much more often to prevent color shifting and algae blums. What am I missing in this picture? |
Overdriving NO Tubes
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Overdriving NO Tubes
"Richard Reynolds" wrote in message news:50b1b.6287$Qy4.1954@fed1read05...
What am I missing in this picture? that MH is the way to go:) :-))) of course... The best light output ratio. The best visual effects. But running extremely hot and initialy expensive :-( |
Overdriving NO Tubes
"Mort"
wrote in message y.com... Apparently you replace the balast with a higher output Electronic ballast (About $10 from home depot) and it can double even triple the wattage of the bulb. Sounds good, but this will dramaticaly shorten the life of the bulb. And be careful talking about "the wattage of the bulb" - it can be misleading. It operates at a higher frequency and does not shorten the life of the bulb much at all. He's had a setup with a twin 30w 36" fixture that with this balast is putting out 130watts after 1 year. What do you mean by "putting out 130 watts"? You rather say "consumes 130 watts". You do not measure the light output in watts. This is an electric not light output unit... The light efficiency of different light sources is different, and with given tube size and given amount of phosphors coating inside the tube by increasing twice or triple the amount of current flow you would rather increase the heat dissipation than ligth output. Will this trickery work for marine aquaria and corals??? In my personal opinion you should be very sceptical analysing stories like that. Experimenting with light in home environment, without sufficient electical and light measuring equipment could be very misleading and time/money consuming without good results. Let the professionals do their jobs. If GE or Philips could drive their bulbs with three times more light output they would do this to outcompete their rivals but there is reason they do not do this. And reasons a - dramatic shortening bulb life - increased heat production in the fixture - lowered light efficiency (much lower amount of light produced from 1Watt of electricity) - color rendering change due to phosphor emitting color spectrum shifts - color temperature change due to the same spectrum shifts You decide. But in my opinion it is not worth it... |
Overdriving NO Tubes
"Teeb" wrote in message ...
You're only paying $4.50 a bulb instead of more than $30.. (a couple VHO bulbs I saw recently were over $50) and since the $30+ bulbs have to be changed out just as often... there's the reasoning. Just as often? You mean how often? Who has proven that? Have you measured light spectrum of that overdriven tube? How do you know when to change it? You pay $4.50 for a tube which gives really unknown spectrum. Most likely with cheap phosphors giving only what is needed to light the office space... Manufacturer of these tubes do not care about the spectrum and what waves of light does the tube really emit and how does it change over time... You will replace it normally when it stops working or starts flickering with red glow at the end :-) Nobody cares of the colors spectrum over their desks in the office or shop. If you were to replace two tubes twice a year, $30 each it would be $120. Are the savings worth playing over a year? And you do not know what you really get while saving money this way... You risk producing wrong light spectrum and promoting algae grow. The spectrum change mostly, not the intensity decrease is the reason behind the recommendation for changing tubes every 6 months... That is one more reason I haven't upgraded my lighting system.. I could *probably* convince hubby that the initial outlay of over $400 for my 48" tank would be a good investment because then it could be a really cool full blown reef tank.. Full blown reef in four-footer for $400 ? You must be kidding me... but having to replace expensive bulbs so often would get tiresome really quickly for the time being. If you are concerned with long-term savings the MH are the way to go for you. I might just have to look into this myself.... what kind of fixtures can you use those ballasts in? And are there any step by step instructions anywhere? Would it be possible to convert the shoplight fixture I am already using? Or would I have to build a light hood.. I am very comfortable working with electricity and MY small workshop in the garage so I am sure it is something I could handle.. I just gotta see how it's done... :-) Go to any Home Depot and take a closer look at the fluorescent balasts shelf. You will find "replacement balasts" for many different types of tubes... They mostly come with installation instructions in the box to tell you wiring or if they require grounded metal reflector to work with the tube starting or not, etc... But I would rather not do this for a display tank. Macroalgae refugium? maybe... but not the display tank with corals. |
Overdriving NO Tubes
Well, I admit I do not know this man very well, but he claims that someone
he knows has a device that measures the light output and he said that fixture "was clocked at 130watts" So anyway... Naturally I have questions about this and that is why I am here ;) ~Mort |
Overdriving NO Tubes
P(in watts) = I(amps) * E(volts)
P -------- I * E Light is measured in lumens, watts is a measure of power consumed. It gets real tricky though if you try to convert any of these measurements to BTU's (British Thermal Units) JOhn :-) "Mort" wrote in message y.com... Well, I admit I do not know this man very well, but he claims that someone he knows has a device that measures the light output and he said that fixture "was clocked at 130watts" So anyway... Naturally I have questions about this and that is why I am here ;) ~Mort |
Overdriving NO Tubes
Well, I admit I do not know this man very well, but he claims that someone
he knows has a device that measures the light output and he said that fixture "was clocked at 130watts" Yeah well according to my clock - it's time to get the shovel out :) IME, overdriving NO tubes does increase intensity but it also causes a severe spectrum shift. I tried it a year or two ago - I started with Phillips 6500k bulbs from Home Depot, I used PFO electronic VHO ballasts to overdrive them. The output was much brighter than normal but the color was nearly green. I didn't wait around long enough to see what the lifespan of the bulbs would eventually be. Needless to say I put my URI bulbs back in. I think King Marc & I gabbed about this a little while back, his experiences were a little different though. It could have been he was using a different ballast - can't remember (gettin' old ;) James |
Overdriving NO Tubes
Pszemol wrote: I do not understand the reasoning here... If you have to change bulbs every 6 months in their nominal working conditions, and overdriving is shortening their life significantly, then when you overdrive you need to replace them much more often to prevent color shifting and algae blums. What am I missing in this picture? You are missing the dollar signs. When I had 3 VHO bulbs on my tank, each one cost me $25 or more. By replacing the one Daylight VHO with a Daylight NO, I saved $20 every 6 months, or $40 a year. Marc -- Personal Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com/oanda/index.html Business Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com Marine Hobbyist: http://www.melevsreef.com |
Overdriving NO Tubes
Pszemol, why do your responses seem so aggressive? We're all friends here, as far as I
know. Read on.... Pszemol wrote: Just as often? You mean how often? VHO have to be replaced every 6 months. Who has proven that? Have you measured light spectrum of that overdriven tube? How do you know when to change it? I have not measured the spectrum. I know to replace my bulbs systematically every 6 months. You pay $4.50 for a tube which gives really unknown spectrum. Not true. The packaging specifically states 6500K - Philips or Sylvania. Look for yourself. Most likely with cheap phosphors giving only what is needed to light the office space... These are not office lighting fluorescents. Those come by the case, or individually. These 6500K only come individually wrapped in a green or blue covering. Manufacturer of these tubes do not care about the spectrum and what waves of light does the tube really emit and how does it change over time... Really? So they make stuff up? Does Ushio do the same? Who tells the truth and who lies? You will replace it normally when it stops working or starts flickering with red glow at the end :-) Nobody cares of the colors spectrum over their desks in the office or shop. We replace them on schedule. And every time I've done it, the bulb still "looked" fine but I knew it was done. If you were to replace two tubes twice a year, $30 each it would be $120. Are the savings worth playing over a year? Yes, the savings is worth it, and numerous folks are doing this successfully. And you do not know what you really get while saving money this way... You risk producing wrong light spectrum and promoting algae grow. I've had no algae issues, as you know from reading my posts here daily. The spectrum change mostly, not the intensity decrease is the reason behind the recommendation for changing tubes every 6 months... Exactly. We don't replace them because they die. We do because the spectrum has been used up and will shift soon. Full blown reef in four-footer for $400 ? You must be kidding me... Lighting? Yes, $400 or more. I remember a nice lady in our group that paid well over $600 for her MH setup. But there are ways to find it for less, and many do. I've watched one vendor on Ebay for a year but never bought the setup offered daily. I ended up buying mine from a guy on Reef Central, and am delighted to see them finally installed on my 4' reef. If you are concerned with long-term savings the MH are the way to go for you. Hmmm. Go to any Home Depot and take a closer look at the fluorescent balasts shelf. You will find "replacement balasts" for many different types of tubes... They mostly come with installation instructions in the box to tell you wiring or if they require grounded metal reflector to work with the tube starting or not, etc... But I would rather not do this for a display tank. Macroalgae refugium? maybe... but not the display tank with corals. Or buy an IceCap ballast designed for VHO or MH setups. They contain the wiring diagram as well. The ballasts at Home Depot support Mercury Vapor, and NO lighting. If there was one for VHO or T5's, you can bet it would have been posted to death on RC and here. Marc -- Personal Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com/oanda/index.html Business Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com Marine Hobbyist: http://www.melevsreef.com |
Overdriving NO Tubes
Richard Reynolds wrote: now I am jumping in here but I thought that was refering to cheaper bulbs being overdriven are you sure they still last 6 months ?? Yep, the work just fine for 6 months. I never got a sudden algae outbreak, and when I switched to a new set the tank did not react with a bloom as I was expecting. it states 6500K but is that the only spectrum peak or just the strongest, or even worse the chosen one of 2 or 3 ive seen the bulb and its sparked some interest, but not much for me now:) It states 6500K. That is the color spectrum of that bulb. made up, probibly not, but you have to know by now that many makers twist data to make there items look better than the next guy Yes, but some things can't be fudged. They can't say this bulb reduces algae or anything. They state what color to expect. I think that would be a reasonably honest thing to do. didnt you just switch to MH bulbs on one of your tanks ??? Yep, 2 x 175w 10,000K with two 110w URI actinic VHO bulbs. No more cheap daylight bulbs for me now. :( Marc -- Personal Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com/oanda/index.html Business Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com Marine Hobbyist: http://www.melevsreef.com |
Overdriving NO Tubes
"IME, overdriving NO tubes does increase intensity but it also causes a severe
spectrum shift." Yes it does Jim and it also greatly increases internal bulb pressure. Increasing bulb pressure alone increases output, as the argon gas pressure increases, due to added heat and overdrive -- Boomer Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php Want to See More ? Please Join Our Growing Membership www.coralrealm.com If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up "Acrylics" wrote in message ... : Well, I admit I do not know this man very well, but he claims that someone : he knows has a device that measures the light output and he said that : fixture "was clocked at 130watts" : : Yeah well according to my clock - it's time to get the shovel out :) : IME, overdriving NO tubes does increase intensity but it also causes a severe : spectrum shift. : I tried it a year or two ago - I started with Phillips 6500k bulbs from Home : Depot, I used PFO electronic VHO ballasts to overdrive them. The output was : much brighter than normal but the color was nearly green. I didn't wait around : long enough to see what the lifespan of the bulbs would eventually be. : Needless to say I put my URI bulbs back in. I think King Marc & I gabbed about : this a little while back, his experiences were a little different though. It : could have been he was using a different ballast - can't remember (gettin' old : ;) : : James |
Overdriving NO Tubes
meaning Fluro's are filled with Argon gas, the purpose for it in these bulbs is to become
heated and increase the gas pressure. Gas pressure = more lumens / watt.. In MH, MV, HPS and LPS it is used for the same thing, but some of it also get ionized and adds to the light spectrum, so it is a duel purpose in these bulbs. And to much pressure can make the bulbs go Kaboom, such as screwing a 175 watt into a 250 and a 400 for sure. -- Boomer Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php Want to See More ? Please Join Our Growing Membership www.coralrealm.com If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up "Boomer" wrote in message ... : "IME, overdriving NO tubes does increase intensity but it also causes a severe : spectrum shift." : : Yes it does Jim and it also greatly increases internal bulb pressure. Increasing bulb : pressure alone increases output, as the argon gas pressure increases, due to added heat : and overdrive. : -- : Boomer : : Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum : http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php : : Want to See More ? : Please Join Our Growing Membership : www.coralrealm.com : : If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up : "Acrylics" wrote in message : ... : : Well, I admit I do not know this man very well, but he claims that someone : : he knows has a device that measures the light output and he said that : : fixture "was clocked at 130watts" : : : : Yeah well according to my clock - it's time to get the shovel out :) : : IME, overdriving NO tubes does increase intensity but it also causes a severe : : spectrum shift. : : I tried it a year or two ago - I started with Phillips 6500k bulbs from Home : : Depot, I used PFO electronic VHO ballasts to overdrive them. The output was : : much brighter than normal but the color was nearly green. I didn't wait around : : long enough to see what the lifespan of the bulbs would eventually be. : : Needless to say I put my URI bulbs back in. I think King Marc & I gabbed about : : this a little while back, his experiences were a little different though. It : : could have been he was using a different ballast - can't remember (gettin' old : : ;) : : : : James : : |
Overdriving NO Tubes
"Marc Levenson" wrote in message ...
Pszemol, why do your responses seem so aggressive? We're all friends here, as far as I know. What is so aggressive in my responses ? Disagreeing is not a sign of aggression. Friends can disagree and it does not affect the friendship. At least in my opinion... If I see a friend attempting to do something stupid I smack him in the forehead before he hurts himself ;-) No aggression intended. Read on.... Pszemol wrote: Just as often? You mean how often? VHO have to be replaced every 6 months. But we are not talking about VHO, right? We are talking about overdriven NO tubes. Who has measured here the spectrum changing over time given by the overdriven NO tubes? I asked Alex for his experiences but no response. Obviously, he did not test anything. Proper lab equipment to make these test is not easly accessible. This is the reason we need to trust the menufacturer in that matter. Who has proven that? Have you measured light spectrum of that overdriven tube? How do you know when to change it? I have not measured the spectrum. I know to replace my bulbs systematically every 6 months. What is the original source of this "6 months" value? How this derived from? Notice - I do not disagree with a need to replace VHO every 6 months - I just stated overdriving NO tube does not make it VHO tube. VHO have different design than NO. You pay $4.50 for a tube which gives really unknown spectrum. Not true. The packaging specifically states 6500K - Philips or Sylvania. Look for yourself. Last time I check there was only info about the spectrum with normally driven tubes. Not for overdriven ones... Most likely with cheap phosphors giving only what is needed to light the office space... These are not office lighting fluorescents. Those come by the case, or individually. These 6500K only come individually wrapped in a green or blue covering. OK - the question is: is it still really 6500K when overdriven? How is the spectrum change with overdriving the tube? Do you know that and can asure us that nothing changes except the intensity? Manufacturer of these tubes do not care about the spectrum and what waves of light does the tube really emit and how does it change over time... Really? So they make stuff up? Does Ushio do the same? Who tells the truth and who lies? Compare phosphors and spectrums of the tubes dedicated to aquarium usage. You will replace it normally when it stops working or starts flickering with red glow at the end :-) Nobody cares of the colors spectrum over their desks in the office or shop. We replace them on schedule. And every time I've done it, the bulb still "looked" fine but I knew it was done. You are the special one :-) In my office they change tubes when they stop working. And this is not the only office they do this. If you were to replace two tubes twice a year, $30 each it would be $120. Are the savings worth playing over a year? Yes, the savings is worth it, and numerous folks are doing this successfully. OK. And you do not know what you really get while saving money this way... You risk producing wrong light spectrum and promoting algae grow. I've had no algae issues, as you know from reading my posts here daily. Was it to contradict opinion about wrong spectrum promoting algae grow? Or maybe to contradict opinion that overdriven tubes change the spectrum? The spectrum change mostly, not the intensity decrease is the reason behind the recommendation for changing tubes every 6 months... Exactly. We don't replace them because they die. We do because the spectrum has been used up and will shift soon. I agree. So how can you know when to change overdriven tubes? Full blown reef in four-footer for $400 ? You must be kidding me... Lighting? I understood everything for 400. Not lighting - ok. If you are concerned with long-term savings the MH are the way to go for you. Hmmm. Disagree? |
Overdriving NO Tubes
"Mort" wrote in message y.com...
P(in watts) = I(amps) * E(volts) P -------- I * E Light is measured in lumens, watts is a measure of power consumed. It gets real tricky though if you try to convert any of these measurements to BTU's (British Thermal Units) JOhn :-) Not really, there are 3.413 BTUs per watt. I was wondering if someone was gonna bust out ohms law =) I am affraid you are missing the energy conversion ration from electricity to heat/light. Machines to do the conversion (bulbs in case of light) are not perfect, and they loose a lot of electric energy to produce useless heat. Teen percent of electricity is converted to light by the standard incadescent bulb. The rest, over 80% is exchanged to heat. Check the fluorescent tubes manufacturers data on the NO and VHO tubes. They differ, but roughly they not give you more then 30% of light out of electicity. The rest ot electricity is heat again. Wasted while dissipated into air. So be careful calculating things - adding efficiency of conversion makes calculations not so easy anymore... The change of balast from 60W to 130W for the same tube does not tell you ANYTHING about the amount of light this tube will provide. |
Overdriving NO Tubes
"Mort" wrote in message y.com...
Well, I admit I do not know this man very well, but he claims that someone he knows has a device that measures the light output and he said that fixture "was clocked at 130watts" Photographers are using simple device to measure light intensity in a given point, so there is the way to measure light output relatively cheap and easy but measuring the light spectrum, which changes over time and changes when you change tube driving conditions is not so easy. If I were you, I would ask your friend about the details of the measurment process. How exactly he come up with the "was clocked at 130watts" statement. Did you compared the light output to the nominaly driven 130W VHO fixture? Or just added wattage of his balasts he has used? These two are not the same. And I highly doubt the overdriven NO tube will produce the same amount of light as VHO tube, so I would bet he just added wattage of balasts. Which is totaly wrong, because of the nature of the electric current flowing inside the fluorescent tube when driven by electronic balast. So anyway... Naturally I have questions about this and that is why I am here ;) Sure... |
Overdriving NO Tubes
"Boomer" wrote in message ...
meaning Fluro's are filled with Argon gas, the purpose for it in these bulbs is to become heated and increase the gas pressure. Gas pressure = more lumens / watt.. In MH, MV, HPS and LPS it is used for the same thing, but some of it also get ionized and adds to the light spectrum, so it is a duel purpose in these bulbs. Boomer, please, do not dissappoint me in your wisdom and correct yourself, please :-)) From above statement we can read that gases in the fluorescent tubes do not get ionized, which is not true to my knowledge. They do get ionized and they emit UV light, which is turned into visible rays of light by the phosphors mixture on the internal surface of the tubes... The ionization process is started by the high voltage surge when the bulb is powered on. Starting voltage is about 600V and depends highly on the lenght of the tube and the temperature of filaments on both ends. Traditional tubes had filaments heated to support tube starting with lowered voltages. The new designs have rather high voltage and no heating. The bottom line: If you use UV-transparent glass type to make the tube and do not use phosphors you would get the UV fluorescent tube. It is not the pressure which generates light. It is UV rays of ionized gas induce secondary emission from phosphors on the tube surface in the visible part of spectrum. The pressure may influence other factors, but the pressure itself does not generate light - sorry Boomer :-) And to much pressure can make the bulbs go Kaboom, such as screwing a 175 watt into a 250 and a 400 for sure. Exactly - The increased risk of glass shattering is another reason against overdriving. I should mentioned this on my list before :-) p.s. Petition to The King Marc: do not interprete my message as aggressive again :-)))) |
Overdriving NO Tubes
Pszemol wrote: I do not understand the logic - sorry... This is not the sign of aggression, but it does not make sense: you religiosly change VHOs every 6 months for what reason? Does the same reason apply to overdriven NO tubes or not? If so, why do you change them based on the look, while you change VHOs even if they still look good? Overdriving NO does not make it VHO! :-) I religiously change VHOs at 6 months because that is the life span of these bulbs. Now, who's told me that? Tons of people. Is it true? Don't know, but why rock the boat yet again? If that is the lifespan, so be it. Now if I've been misled and they are good for 8 or 9 months, well it's too late now. ;) It states 6500K. That is the color spectrum of that bulb. When overdriven? Sure, why not? talk about opening a can of worms here As you know, I'm in it for the hobby not the science. It *looked* good to me. Yes, but some things can't be fudged. They can't say this bulb reduces algae or anything. They state what color to expect. I think that would be a reasonably honest thing to do. They do not state how this tube behaves when overdriven. True, but the person that suggested this to me in the first place is someone I trust. How much do you save now each year? :-) Nothing. :( However, I can finally get an Table acropora. Yay!! Marc -- Personal Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com/oanda/index.html Business Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com Marine Hobbyist: http://www.melevsreef.com |
Overdriving NO Tubes
"Richard Reynolds" wrote in message news:H4v1b.8737$Qy4.1863@fed1read05...
How much do you save now each year? :-) I dont understand that concept ??? I have indicated my question with :-) sign! The whole thread is about saving money, isn't it? :-)))) If there was not problem with money nobody would bother with overdriving NO tubes... Nothing. :( However, I can finally get an Table acropora. Yay!! I do understand that concept :) Every hobby is very expensive when you become seriously involved. Money are not important anymore when you want to achieve something out of ordinary in your hobby. |
Overdriving NO Tubes
"Marc Levenson" wrote in message ...
It's all in the wording. And in the eyes of the reader. :) I am affraid I can do a little about that then... But we are not talking about VHO, right? Right. But we are using a VHO ballast. So what? :-) Is the balast the reason we replace VHO every 6 months? We are talking about overdriven NO tubes. Who has measured here the spectrum changing over time given by the overdriven NO tubes? I don't know. The guy that pointed me to this idea has contacts with many vendors, and has been in the marine industry for a long time. I figured he might have been told by someone that actually did the tests. I wonder if Sanjay Yoshi might have done it yet? If so, he'd have your answer. If I see him at Macna next month, I'll ask him and post his response. Thank you. It would be much more reliable information than "it looks good for me" :-) You argue too good. Gonna be a lawyer one day? Or simply the Devil's Advocate? ;) I am The Devil myself :-) OK - the question is: is it still really 6500K when overdriven? How is the spectrum change with overdriving the tube? Do you know that and can asure us that nothing changes except the intensity? Maybe Sanjay will know. People in this thread indicated the tubes change slightly in color. And this was visible change. There are probably more hard to notice changes. Lets wait for his answer. Was it to contradict opinion about wrong spectrum promoting algae grow? Or maybe to contradict opinion that overdriven tubes change the spectrum? Statement #1. Interesting... and I can read about this in so many places... Probably in the same places I read about replacing VHO every 6 months :-))) So why do you replace VHO bulbs religiously every 6 months if you do not care too much about the right light spectrum? You said you do not see the difference in light, but you still change them. Why? See? This is the reason I react questioning reasoning here :-))) Do not blame me. I can't say yet. Cost of bulbs, cost of consumed electricity, cost of replacement ballasts.... PCs seem like the best bet economically to me. |
Overdriving NO Tubes
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Overdriving NO Tubes
I do not need to correct myself :-) and might add you have mis-read this and misexplained
some things I think it is more "Sorry Pszemol" please correct yourself : -) "which is not true to my knowledge. They do get ionized and they emit UV light, which is turned into visible rays of light by the phosphors mixture on the internal surface of the tubes... " Well, that is incorrect as the bulb does not generate enough energy to ionize Argon. What makes you think it does.Only HID generate enough energy to ionize Argon. Do you have ref. that states that Argon in fluro lamp gets ionized and produces light or are you just assuming that ? "If you use UV-transparent glass type to make the tube and do not use phosphors you would get the UV fluorescent tube." It is the Mercury that becomes vaporized and ionized that does that, producing UV not Argon. You will only see Argon peaks in HID bulbs. "It is not the pressure which generates light. " I never said pressure generates light, I said "Increasing bulb pressure alone increases output, as the argon gas pressure increases, due to added heat and overdrive" and "Gas pressure = more lumens / watt" Know where did I say pressure produces light, I said pressure increases output. A bulb with no Argon gas, thus less pressure from heating and will have a lower efficacy rating than one with Argon. An Argon filled bulb would have a higher efficacy than a non-Argon filled bulb. The pressure reaches about 2-3 torr. Pressure lowers the wattage required to attain x lumens / W. Nowhere in the GTE manuals does it even mention that Argon adds at all to the spectrum and there is no Argon peak in any SED Curve This is how things work; When a fluro receives electrical current there is a passage of that current through the electrodes, called "Hot Electrodes", sealed at either end of the bulb. The heat generated heats up the tungsten filament and its emissive material such as Barium, Strontium, Calcium Oxide). As then become heated (950 C) they release electrons. These electrons travel at high speed from one electrode to another. Other electrons are also released by the field differences of the electrodes. This produces an electrical discharge arch or plasma. As these electrons and arch are produced it increases internal pressure, causing liquid Mercury in the tube to become heated, causing it to become vaporized and shed electrons. This release of electrons from Mercury produces UV light. These electrons fall back into orbit but only to be re-released again as the bulb is still receiving current. This "reaction" thus formed produces energy in the form of light and heat. The light so produced is UV at 253.7 nm. As this wave length hits the phosphors, materials that are capable of converting wavelengths from short UV to longer visible wave lengths, there is a change in the type of light. In other words these phosphors are excited to fluorescence by UV to the proper wave length. Some known examples of phosphors and their colors Cadmium Borate = Pink Calcium Halophospahte = White Calcium Silicate = Orange Calcium Tungstate = Blue Magnesium Tungstate = Bluish White Strontium Halophosphate = Light Green Zinc Silicate = Green Please consult GTE Sylvania Engineering Bulletin 0-341 (version 1 & 2 ), Fluorescent Lamps, 22 pages -- Boomer Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php Want to See More ? Please Join Our Growing Membership www.coralrealm.com If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up "Pszemol" wrote in message ... : "Boomer" wrote in message ... : meaning Fluro's are filled with Argon gas, the purpose for it in these bulbs is to become : heated and increase the gas pressure. Gas pressure = more lumens / watt.. In MH, MV, HPS : and LPS it is used for the same thing, but some of it also get ionized and adds to the : light spectrum, so it is a duel purpose in these bulbs. : : Boomer, please, do not dissappoint me in your wisdom and correct yourself, please :-)) : From above statement we can read that gases in the fluorescent tubes do not : get ionized, which is not true to my knowledge. They do get ionized and they : emit UV light, which is turned into visible rays of light by the phosphors : mixture on the internal surface of the tubes... The ionization process is started : by the high voltage surge when the bulb is powered on. Starting voltage is about 600V : and depends highly on the lenght of the tube and the temperature of filaments on both : ends. Traditional tubes had filaments heated to support tube starting with lowered : voltages. The new designs have rather high voltage and no heating. : The bottom line: If you use UV-transparent glass : type to make the tube and do not use phosphors you would get the UV fluorescent tube. : It is not the pressure which generates light. It is UV rays of ionized gas induce : secondary emission from phosphors on the tube surface in the visible part of spectrum. : The pressure may influence other factors, but the pressure itself does not : generate light - sorry Boomer :-) : : And to much pressure can make the : bulbs go Kaboom, such as screwing a 175 watt into a 250 and a 400 for sure. : : Exactly - The increased risk of glass shattering is another reason against overdriving. : I should mentioned this on my list before :-) : : p.s. Petition to The King Marc: do not interprete my message as aggressive again :-)))) |
Overdriving NO Tubes
oop's forgot
GTE Sylvania High Intensity Discharge lamps : Metal Arch, Engineering Bulletin 0-344 GTE Sylvania High Intensity Discharge lamps : Lumalux Lamps, Engineering Bulletin 0-348 GTE Sylvania High Intensity Discharge lamps: Mercury Lamps, Engineering Bulletin 0-346 -- Boomer Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php Want to See More ? Please Join Our Growing Membership www.coralrealm.com If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up "Boomer" wrote in message ... : I hope I wasn't to aggressive :-) : : -- : Boomer : : Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum : http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php : : Want to See More ? : Please Join Our Growing Membership : www.coralrealm.com : : If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up : "Boomer" wrote in message ... : : I do not need to correct myself :-) and might add you have mis-read this and : misexplained : : some things : : : : I think it is more "Sorry Pszemol" please correct yourself : -) : : : : "which is not true to my knowledge. They do get ionized and they : : emit UV light, which is turned into visible rays of light by the phosphors : : mixture on the internal surface of the tubes... " : : : : Well, that is incorrect as the bulb does not generate enough energy to ionize Argon. : What : : makes you think it does.Only HID generate enough energy to ionize Argon. Do you have : ref. : : that states that Argon in fluro lamp gets ionized and produces light or are you just : : assuming that ? : : : : "If you use UV-transparent glass : : type to make the tube and do not use phosphors you would get the UV fluorescent tube." : : : : It is the Mercury that becomes vaporized and ionized that does that, producing UV not : : Argon. You will only see Argon peaks in HID bulbs. : : : : : : "It is not the pressure which generates light. " : : : : I never said pressure generates light, I said : : : : "Increasing bulb : : pressure alone increases output, as the argon gas pressure increases, due to added heat : : and overdrive" : : : : and : : : : "Gas pressure = more lumens / watt" : : : : : : Know where did I say pressure produces light, I said pressure increases output. A bulb : : with no Argon gas, thus less pressure from heating and will have a lower efficacy rating : : than one with Argon. An Argon filled bulb would have a higher efficacy than a non-Argon : : filled bulb. The pressure reaches about 2-3 torr. Pressure lowers the wattage required : to : : attain x lumens / W. Nowhere in the GTE manuals does it even mention that Argon adds at : : all to the spectrum and there is no Argon peak in any SED Curve : : : : This is how things work; : : When a fluro receives electrical current there is a passage of that current through the : : electrodes, called "Hot Electrodes", sealed at either end of the bulb. The heat : generated : : heats up the tungsten filament and its emissive material such as Barium, Strontium, : : Calcium Oxide). As then become heated (950 C) they release electrons. These electrons : : travel at high speed from one electrode to another. Other electrons are also released by : : the field differences of the electrodes. This produces an electrical discharge arch or : : plasma. As these electrons and arch are produced it increases internal pressure, causing : : liquid Mercury in the tube to become heated, causing it to become vaporized and shed : : electrons. This release of electrons from Mercury produces UV light. These electrons : fall : : back into orbit but only to be re-released again as the bulb is still receiving current. : : This "reaction" thus formed produces energy in the form of light and heat. The light so : : produced is UV at 253.7 nm. As this wave length hits the phosphors, materials that are : : capable of converting wavelengths from short UV to longer visible wave lengths, there is : a : : change in the type of light. In other words these phosphors are excited to fluorescence : by : : UV to the proper wave length. : : : : Some known examples of phosphors and their colors : : : : Cadmium Borate = Pink : : : : Calcium Halophospahte = White : : : : Calcium Silicate = Orange : : : : Calcium Tungstate = Blue : : : : Magnesium Tungstate = Bluish White : : : : Strontium Halophosphate = Light Green : : : : Zinc Silicate = Green : : : : : : Please consult : : : : GTE Sylvania Engineering Bulletin 0-341 (version 1 & 2 ), Fluorescent Lamps, 22 pages : : : : : : : : -- : : Boomer : : : : Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum : : http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php : : : : Want to See More ? : : Please Join Our Growing Membership : : www.coralrealm.com : : : : If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up : : "Pszemol" wrote in message ... : : : "Boomer" wrote in message : : ... : : : meaning Fluro's are filled with Argon gas, the purpose for it in these bulbs is to : : become : : : heated and increase the gas pressure. Gas pressure = more lumens / watt.. In MH, MV, : : HPS : : : and LPS it is used for the same thing, but some of it also get ionized and adds to : the : : : light spectrum, so it is a duel purpose in these bulbs. : : : : : : Boomer, please, do not dissappoint me in your wisdom and correct yourself, please :-)) : : : From above statement we can read that gases in the fluorescent tubes do not : : : get ionized, which is not true to my knowledge. They do get ionized and they : : : emit UV light, which is turned into visible rays of light by the phosphors : : : mixture on the internal surface of the tubes... The ionization process is started : : : by the high voltage surge when the bulb is powered on. Starting voltage is about 600V : : : and depends highly on the lenght of the tube and the temperature of filaments on both : : : ends. Traditional tubes had filaments heated to support tube starting with lowered : : : voltages. The new designs have rather high voltage and no heating. : : : The bottom line: If you use UV-transparent glass : : : type to make the tube and do not use phosphors you would get the UV fluorescent tube. : : : It is not the pressure which generates light. It is UV rays of ionized gas induce : : : secondary emission from phosphors on the tube surface in the visible part of spectrum. : : : The pressure may influence other factors, but the pressure itself does not : : : generate light - sorry Boomer :-) : : : : : : And to much pressure can make the : : : bulbs go Kaboom, such as screwing a 175 watt into a 250 and a 400 for sure. : : : : : : Exactly - The increased risk of glass shattering is another reason against : overdriving. : : : I should mentioned this on my list before :-) : : : : : : p.s. Petition to The King Marc: do not interprete my message as aggressive again : :-)))) : : : : : : |
Overdriving NO Tubes
Right - I was mistaken - atoms of gases in the tube do not get
ionized but only get excited and then when electrons return to their original state they emit UV - sorry Boomer, you are still The Oracle! :-)) |
Overdriving NO Tubes
"Boomer" wrote in message ...
I hope I wasn't to aggressive :-) No, but I will be put in King's dungeons for sure now :-)))) Am I correct, King Marc? ;-))) p.s. what an excellent newsgroup atmosphere here! |
Overdriving NO Tubes
"Boomer" wrote in message ... I do not need to correct myself :-) and might add you have mis-read this and misexplained some things I think it is more "Sorry Pszemol" please correct yourself : -) "which is not true to my knowledge. They do get ionized and they emit UV light, which is turned into visible rays of light by the phosphors mixture on the internal surface of the tubes... " Well, that is incorrect as the bulb does not generate enough energy to ionize Argon. What makes you think it does.Only HID generate enough energy to ionize Argon. Do you have ref. that states that Argon in fluro lamp gets ionized and produces light or are you just assuming that ? "If you use UV-transparent glass type to make the tube and do not use phosphors you would get the UV fluorescent tube." It is the Mercury that becomes vaporized and ionized that does that, producing UV not Argon. You will only see Argon peaks in HID bulbs. "It is not the pressure which generates light. " I never said pressure generates light, I said "Increasing bulb pressure alone increases output, as the argon gas pressure increases, due to added heat and overdrive" and "Gas pressure = more lumens / watt" Know where did I say pressure produces light, I said pressure increases output. A bulb with no Argon gas, thus less pressure from heating and will have a lower efficacy rating than one with Argon. An Argon filled bulb would have a higher efficacy than a non-Argon filled bulb. The pressure reaches about 2-3 torr. Pressure lowers the wattage required to attain x lumens / W. Nowhere in the GTE manuals does it even mention that Argon adds at all to the spectrum and there is no Argon peak in any SED Curve This is how things work; When a fluro receives electrical current there is a passage of that current through the electrodes, called "Hot Electrodes", sealed at either end of the bulb. The heat generated heats up the tungsten filament and its emissive material such as Barium, Strontium, Calcium Oxide). As then become heated (950 C) they release electrons. These electrons travel at high speed from one electrode to another. Other electrons are also released by the field differences of the electrodes. This produces an electrical discharge arch or plasma. As these electrons and arch are produced it increases internal pressure, causing liquid Mercury in the tube to become heated, causing it to become vaporized and shed electrons. This release of electrons from Mercury produces UV light. These electrons fall back into orbit but only to be re-released again as the bulb is still receiving current. This "reaction" thus formed produces energy in the form of light and heat. The light so produced is UV at 253.7 nm. As this wave length hits the phosphors, materials that are capable of converting wavelengths from short UV to longer visible wave lengths, there is a change in the type of light. In other words these phosphors are excited to fluorescence by UV to the proper wave length. Some known examples of phosphors and their colors Cadmium Borate = Pink Calcium Halophospahte = White Calcium Silicate = Orange Calcium Tungstate = Blue Magnesium Tungstate = Bluish White Strontium Halophosphate = Light Green Zinc Silicate = Green Please consult GTE Sylvania Engineering Bulletin 0-341 (version 1 & 2 ), Fluorescent Lamps, 22 pages -- Boomer Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php Want to See More ? Please Join Our Growing Membership www.coralrealm.com If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up Wow.... |
Overdriving NO Tubes
Yes, but not the Argon, it does not get excited enough and produces nil light in fluro's
and is why there is no Argon peak in a fluro SED curve. Mercury produces most of the light, say + 95 %. and there is some temporary ionization, there has to be, if not where do all the electrons come from that are flying around. Ionization is when something losses or gains an electron. Even once ionized the electrons can fall/come back into orbit.. "These electrons travel at high speed from one electrode to another." "This release of electrons from Mercury produces UV light" -- Boomer Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php Want to See More ? Please Join Our Growing Membership www.coralrealm.com If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up "Pszemol" wrote in message ... : Right - I was mistaken - atoms of gases in the tube do not get : ionized but only get excited and then when electrons return to their : original state they emit UV - sorry Boomer, you are still The Oracle! :-)) |
Overdriving NO Tubes
Boomer wrote: Yes, but not the Argon, it does not get excited enough and produces nil light in fluro's and is why there is no Argon peak in a fluro SED curve. Mercury produces most of the light, say + 95 %. and there is some temporary ionization, there has to be, if not where do all the electrons come from that are flying around. Ionization is when something losses or gains an electron. Even once ionized the electrons can fall/come back into orbit.. ..... and all this proves that overdriven NO bulbs are perfect spectrum-wise and last exactly 180 days before they must be replaced! VBG Marc -- Personal Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com/oanda/index.html Business Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com Marine Hobbyist: http://www.melevsreef.com |
Overdriving NO Tubes
"Marc Levenson" wrote in message ... VHO have to be replaced every 6 months. over on RC someone just told me that with electronic ballast that the VHO's will last a year.........any truth to it? curious as I prefer the looks of VHO's over PC's but my PC's last a year and past VHO's were actually less then 6 months. kc |
Overdriving NO Tubes
I've done it for over a year. It works very well. The selection of vho bulbs sucks but there are so many NO bulbs. I do not use normal 6500k bulbs like some recommend. The color temperature doesn't tell you anything, it's the light spectrum that matters. Photosynthesis mainly happens at particular ranges of blue and orange. Normal 6500k bulbs have little in this range -- their spectral output is mainly green & yellow with a little blue and orange. I replace NO bulbs every 5-6 months, compared with VHO @ 9-10 months. The obvious sign is darkening of the ends. I've kept clams, SPS & LPS under this setup. Look for bulbs with lots of light around 430nm, 480, and 660. That's key and I think that's one reason some people can't keep "difficult" stuff under fluorescents: they're using the wrong bulbs. JJ Mort wrote: Is anyone here familiar with overdriving NO fluorescent tubes? I met a DIYer today (Marc, that's the guy I told you about with those5 stage RO/DI units) that does this to his lamps. Apparently you replace the balast with a higher output Electronic ballast (About $10 from home depot) and it can double even triple the wattage of the bulb. It operates at a higher frequency and does not shorten the life of the bulb much at all. He's had a setup with a twin 30w 36" fixture that with this balast is putting out 130watts after 1 year. Will this trickery work for marine aquaria and corals??? ~Mort |
Overdriving NO Tubes
"If you say there is ionization, this is what I was saying before :-))"
But the gas in question was Argon, so you are still incorrect, at least for Argon :-)) "After all, I was not so wrong :-))))) LOL!" OK, I'm going to let you slide buy today.........so now I will go pick on King Marc for you ;-) -- Boomer Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php Want to See More ? Please Join Our Growing Membership www.coralrealm.com If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up "Pszemol" wrote in message ... : "Boomer" wrote in message ... : Yes, but not the Argon, it does not get excited enough and produces nil light in fluro's : and is why there is no Argon peak in a fluro SED curve. Mercury produces most of the : light, say + 95 %. and there is some temporary ionization, there has to be, if not where : do all the electrons come from that are flying around. Ionization is when something losses : or gains an electron. Even once ionized the electrons can fall/come back into orbit.. : : Maybe I agree with you too quickly then? :-) : If you say there is ionization, this is what I was saying before :-)) : You said the current flow created plasma - what is plasma?? : Plasma is ionized gas :-))) : If it was not ionized, how the current would flow? : After initialy started, the voltage between ends of the tube is smaller, : around 80-90V, not sufficient for electrons to jump from filament to filament :-) : They would need some ionized medium to travel across in the tube... : : So, summing up: gases ARE ionized inside tube and they ARE producing UV rays. : |
Overdriving NO Tubes
"Boomer" wrote in message ... "If you say there is ionization, this is what I was saying before :-))" But the gas in question was Argon, so you are still incorrect, at least for Argon :-)) "After all, I was not so wrong :-))))) LOL!" OK, I'm going to let you slide buy today.........so now I will go pick on King Marc for you ;-) -- Boomer LoL, Run your majesty, RUN! |
Overdriving NO Tubes
"Boomer" wrote in message ...
"If you say there is ionization, this is what I was saying before :-))" But the gas in question was Argon, so you are still incorrect, at least for Argon :-)) I was not talking about Argon but about "gases in the tube" :-)) But I admit, I had no idea about the relation between pressure and output. I was also correct with the three-phosphors tubes change color over time as you stated each kind of phosphor has a different burn-out rate, so if over time, let's say, 2 of 3 phosphors will burn out you will got one phosphor tube after a couple of months, not three-phosphors tube like new one. And overdriving any tube will dresticaly shorten its life - that is the fact. So if 6-12 months rule apply to all "nominaly" driven tubes, those overdriven will change over time much faster and need to be replaced more often to keep their light-output parameters. I guess we both agree in that matter. And this was the point of the main conversation, not the nature of fluoroscence :-) "After all, I was not so wrong :-))))) LOL!" OK, I'm going to let you slide buy today......... so now I will go pick on King Marc for you ;-) Thank you :-)) |
Overdriving NO Tubes
"I was not talking about Argon but about "gases in the tube" :-))"
OK, I'll let you off the hook since you say ""gases in the tube" , in which case the only real "gas" is Mercury vapor and only Mercury vapor, with the very very small addition of some of he emissive material being "gases".Aragon is a true gas and not a vapor. One other thing; "Plasma is ionized gas :-)))" Well, that is only half of it. :-)) A Plasma is a stream of positively charged ions accompanied by about equal proportions of electrons "I was also correct with the three-phosphors tubes " I know the guy personnel, that invented all of the tri lamps with the built in reflectors, Dr. Perry Thrasher, know matter what name is on the bulb. Perry has left the company ,do to illness and I haven't found out where he went other than California for health reasons. Me and JB ( John Burleson) had the first sets :-) http://www.light-sources.com/ -- Boomer Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php Want to See More ? Please Join Our Growing Membership www.coralrealm.com If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up "Pszemol" wrote in message ... : "Boomer" wrote in message ... : "If you say there is ionization, this is what I was saying before :-))" : : But the gas in question was Argon, so you are still incorrect, at least for Argon :-)) : : I was not talking about Argon but about "gases in the tube" :-)) : But I admit, I had no idea about the relation between pressure and output. : I was also correct with the three-phosphors tubes change color over time : as you stated each kind of phosphor has a different burn-out rate, so if : over time, let's say, 2 of 3 phosphors will burn out you will got one : phosphor tube after a couple of months, not three-phosphors tube like new one. : And overdriving any tube will dresticaly shorten its life - that is the fact. : So if 6-12 months rule apply to all "nominaly" driven tubes, those overdriven : will change over time much faster and need to be replaced more often to keep : their light-output parameters. I guess we both agree in that matter. : And this was the point of the main conversation, not the nature of fluoroscence :-) : : "After all, I was not so wrong :-))))) LOL!" : : OK, I'm going to let you slide buy today......... : so now I will go pick on King Marc for you ;-) : : Thank you :-)) |
Overdriving NO Tubes
"Boomer" wrote in message ...
"I was not talking about Argon but about "gases in the tube" :-))" OK, I'll let you off the hook since you say ""gases in the tube" , in which case the only real "gas" is Mercury vapor and only Mercury vapor, with the very very small addition of some of he emissive material being "gases". Ok, thank you for your mercy ;-) Aragon is a true gas and not a vapor. I do not like the "true gas" term... How do you define it? Gas is gas :-) There is no true gas or false gas :-)) Almost every matter can change phase from state to liquid and gas and all of it depends of the temperature. But I guess you call Argon "a true gas" because it has gas phase in a room temperature, right? :-) One other thing; "Plasma is ionized gas :-)))" Well, that is only half of it. :-)) A Plasma is a stream of positively charged ions accompanied by about equal proportions of electrons By "ionized gas" I ment whole gas in state of ionizations. No ions alone, but with electrons detached from original atoms too :-) But some of missunderstanding here can be derived from the fact, that English is my second language, as it was stated correctly on this ng recently :-)) "I was also correct with the three-phosphors tubes " I know the guy personnel, that invented all of the tri lamps with the built in reflectors, Dr. Perry Thrasher, know matter what name is on the bulb. Perry has left the company ,do to illness and I haven't found out where he went other than California for health reasons. Me and JB ( John Burleson) had the first sets :-) http://www.light-sources.com/ Do I understand correctly you are saying design of gas discharge lamps are your profession? |
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