Watching nutrient levels
 

Hello, Greg Watson's PMDD formula should be arriving Monday and I was
wondering how should I go about measuring the nutrient levels? I
already have a test kit for nitrate but what about other nutrients?

"I3 I L L" wrote in message
ups.com...
Hello, Greg Watson's PMDD formula should be arriving Monday and I was
wondering how should I go about measuring the nutrient levels? I
already have a test kit for nitrate but what about other nutrients?

Try Tom Barrs formula with 50% water changes weekly, much cheaper and
simpler than screwing with test kits. With only a bit of adjustment you can
work out what is best from that point.
bob

Under dosing or unbalanced dosing generally causes more touble than ever
dosing.

Health fast growing plants will beat algae everything if nurients are fairly
well balanced.

Bob

All the dosing instructions I've seen are for each compound separately.
I was assuming that the PMDD from Greg Watson was 1# of various
fertilizers mixed together. Is this how it is, and would someone have a
link to T. Barr's formula? Thanks

Try Tom Barrs formula with 50% water changes weekly, much cheaper and
simpler than screwing with test kits. With only a bit of adjustment you can
work out what is best from that point.

Yes, that's the way to go. One point though, get your tap water tested
so you know where you're starting from for the purpose of adding ferts
is to bring your levels up to where youwant them to be from where they
are.

Some tapwater is high in phosphate so you wouldn't want to add any
if it's fine out of the tap. If your water is very hard you won't
want to add MgSO4 ("Epsom salts"); if your water is soft, you do.

Once you know the difference between where you are and where you
want to be it should be easy to figure out what to add each week.

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I use distilled water because the tap water is ridiculously high in
phosphates. So I guess I would have to add all the compounds since
there's not any nutrients in the water I'm adding.

In article .com,
I3 I L L wrote:
I use distilled water because the tap water is ridiculously high in
phosphates. So I guess I would have to add all the compounds since
there's not any nutrients in the water I'm adding.

You use nothing but distilled water? I'm shocked anything is still
alive.


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LOL, Of course I add nutrients. I use flourish and iron tabs to
fertilize. I also have pressurized co2 running.

In article .com,
I3 I L L wrote:
LOL, Of course I add nutrients. I use flourish and iron tabs to
fertilize. I also have pressurized co2 running.

Yeah but with nothing to buffer the pH I'm surprised it doesn't
turn into an acidic bubbling mess.

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"I3 I L L" wrote in message
oups.com...
All the dosing instructions I've seen are for each compound separately.
I was assuming that the PMDD from Greg Watson was 1# of various
fertilizers mixed together. Is this how it is, and would someone have a
link to T. Barr's formula? Thanks


http://www.sfbaaps.com/reference/barr_02_01.shtml
try http://www.aquabotanic.com/aquamenu.htm
or join us at http://www.actwin.com/mailman/listinfo/aquatic-plants

or check out http://www.barrreport.com/ there are some free areas.

Bob

"Richard Sexton" wrote in message
...
Try Tom Barrs formula with 50% water changes weekly, much cheaper and
simpler than screwing with test kits. With only a bit of adjustment you
can
work out what is best from that point.

Yes, that's the way to go. One point though, get your tap water tested
so you know where you're starting from for the purpose of adding ferts
is to bring your levels up to where youwant them to be from where they
are.

Some tapwater is high in phosphate so you wouldn't want to add any
if it's fine out of the tap. If your water is very hard you won't
want to add MgSO4 ("Epsom salts"); if your water is soft, you do.

Once you know the difference between where you are and where you
want to be it should be easy to figure out what to add each week.

--
Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
http://www.mbz.org | Mercedes Mailing lists: http://lists.mbz.org
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | Killies, killi.net, Crypts, aquaria.net
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Old wris****ches http://watches.list.mbz.org

Call the water company and ask for a copy of their annual analyses. Tell
them what you are doing so they understand what you need and why and aren't
just some trouble maker. They tend to be paranoid.

Bob

"I3 I L L" wrote in message
oups.com...
I use distilled water because the tap water is ridiculously high in
phosphates. So I guess I would have to add all the compounds since
there's not any nutrients in the water I'm adding.

How high is ridiculously high.....

In that case just minimize the addition of phospates, go for N & K and
traces.

Bob

"I3 I L L" wrote in message
oups.com...
LOL, Of course I add nutrients. I use flourish and iron tabs to
fertilize. I also have pressurized co2 running.

For health plants you"ll need some gH (Ca, Mg) and carbonates & such (kH).
I suspect just adding the right mix of nitrates, potassium and traces plus a
low phosphate fish food would have you doing great. I used to mix R/O and
tap water to bring my water down for my angels and such but moved so now I
fight low kH and low mg. Easier than having to add everything.

Believe it or not there are people out there adding phosphate to balance
their tanks. Even with my fish loads I have to add nitrates to keep the
jungle. I just figured out my tank was Potassium limited. BY adding that I
dopubled the health and size of my Vals. One of these days I'll have to try
adding potash and see what happens.

What is your gH and kH?

Bob

"I3 I L L" wrote in message
oups.com...
All the dosing instructions I've seen are for each compound separately.
I was assuming that the PMDD from Greg Watson was 1# of various
fertilizers mixed together. Is this how it is, and would someone have a
link to T. Barr's formula? Thanks

Here are some good sources .....

Chuck Gadd calculator
on line
http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_p...osage_calc.htm
on you own computer
http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_plant_aquacalc.htm

check out
http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_p...izer_intro.htm

http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/Fertilizer/ and
http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/Fertilizer/pmdd-tim.html

Here is an interesting one on carbon and trace elements I'd missed before
http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/Fertil...ar-carbon.html

Bob

Well, I must be something right if I my plants continue to grow. My kh
is 6 degrees(107ppm) and gh is 6 degrees as well. I add baking soda to
kick up the kh. I was referring to those Chuck Gadd calculators in my
previous post, they are very helpful.

Call the water company and ask for a copy of their annual analyses. Tell
them what you are doing so they understand what you need and why and aren't
just some trouble maker. They tend to be paranoid.

I live way out in the country. I am my water comnpany :-)

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You're in the right ballpark. I'd worry about traces. My tanks were doing
fine too ... but I doubled the growth rate when I started adding K.

So the new stuff is doing well?

I've been having fun... My wife is painting the living room.... I'm kept
busy draining tanks and moving then away from the wall. Oh my back!

enjoy
Bob

"I3 I L L" wrote in message
oups.com...
Well, I must be something right if I my plants continue to grow. My kh
is 6 degrees(107ppm) and gh is 6 degrees as well. I add baking soda to
kick up the kh. I was referring to those Chuck Gadd calculators in my
previous post, they are very helpful.

That makes it a bit more expensive ;-) I've been there ... had iron levels
you could walk on. I tolerated it but my wife couldn't drink it. Of course,
in the days before Gillette, Wyo put in the new water system I even got to
the point I could tolerate the water there. Epson salts :-) made really
dangerous coffee.

Bob

"Richard Sexton" wrote in message
...
Call the water company and ask for a copy of their annual analyses. Tell
them what you are doing so they understand what you need and why and
aren't
just some trouble maker. They tend to be paranoid.

I live way out in the country. I am my water comnpany :-)

--
Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
http://www.mbz.org | Mercedes Mailing lists: http://lists.mbz.org
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | Killies, killi.net, Crypts, aquaria.net
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Old wris****ches http://watches.list.mbz.org

I add baking soda

Ah, ok that explains it. That works.


--
Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
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The PMDD arrived today. I did my 50% water change. Now I mixed one
teaspoon with 1/2 liter of distilled water. Does this sound correct
before I add it to my tank(12G)?

I3 I L L wrote:
The PMDD arrived today. I did my 50% water change. Now I mixed one
teaspoon with 1/2 liter of distilled water. Does this sound correct
before I add it to my tank(12G)?


That only sounds like half the story, Bill. On chuck's page, the
recipie (I think) puts a Tablespoon? in the water? And then, you only
add a few ml of that potion to your tank on a weekly basis. One source
I read said about 4 drops for each 20 gallons or something like that.
Tom Barr recommends, for a full up jungle tank of 75 gallons, with high
lights and C02... 15mil of traces 3 times a week. That's 15 mil of the
diluted solution.

steve

I am rapidly realizing that I should have ordered each ingrediant
seperatly. If I add 2 teaspoons of the PMDD to my 1/2 liter (34mL), I
get 4.45ppm nitrate in KNO3. That's not too bad considering it should
be around 5ppm. Now with that same 2 teaspoons I get 2.81ppm potassium
in KNO3, 3.49 potassium in K2SO4. Potassium levels should be about
15-20 ppm. Lastly, I get .69 ppm magnesium when it should be 5-10ppm.
What should I do at this point???

That should say 34 fluid ounces and I just realized Chuck's calculator
is in mL. WHOOPS. Are my calculations correct, 1005.50ml in 34 fl oz?

In article .com,
I3 I L L wrote:
I am rapidly realizing that I should have ordered each ingrediant
seperatly. If I add 2 teaspoons of the PMDD to my 1/2 liter (34mL), I
get 4.45ppm nitrate in KNO3. That's not too bad considering it should
be around 5ppm. Now with that same 2 teaspoons I get 2.81ppm potassium
in KNO3, 3.49 potassium in K2SO4. Potassium levels should be about
15-20 ppm. Lastly, I get .69 ppm magnesium when it should be 5-10ppm.
What should I do at this point???

Ignore the potassium. As long as you're regularly adding
potassium nitrate your plants won't be potassium limited.

The potasium level is more for people that have enough nitrates
and have to add only potassim.

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I3 I L L wrote:
I am rapidly realizing that I should have ordered each ingrediant
seperatly. If I add 2 teaspoons of the PMDD to my 1/2 liter (34mL), I
get 4.45ppm nitrate in KNO3. That's not too bad considering it should
be around 5ppm. Now with that same 2 teaspoons I get 2.81ppm
potassium
in KNO3, 3.49 potassium in K2SO4. Potassium levels should be about
15-20 ppm. Lastly, I get .69 ppm magnesium when it should be 5-10ppm.
What should I do at this point???


Um, I guess I should suggest what worked for me. I was totally
confused for a week or two, and had to keep going back to the
calculator, Greg Watson's page and the write up on "Estimative Index"
by Tom Barr. After two weeks of thinking I had it down and relearning
it when I once again found myself dumb, I finally grasped the concept
and understood the basic plan.

Here's on point I think you may have missed because it hasn't come up
in your previous posts. The calculator lets you know how much stuff is
in each ml of the solution you've made. But you're making a larger
amount, unless you put "1" in the ml of solution box. Using the
calculator, it gives you several boxes to fill in. I use the teaspoon
box, and fill in the amount of water box with 100 ml. I never click
the recalculate box as that changes the page in a weird way. When you
click on one parameter and then another, the calculation takes affect.
So, try this; Put .5 teaspoon in the amount box for KNO3. Put 100 ml
in the amount of solution box and 20g for tank size. Now the answer
will be .23 ppm nitrate in potassium nitrate, right? FOR EACH
MILLITER. If you multiply the answer by 100, it will tell you the
total effect of the 1/2 teaspoon in your 20g tank.

Now, about PMDD... I ordered the trace mix, and a bag of KNO3 and a
bag of KH2P04. Since I have plenty of phosphates in my water already
from fish food, I don't us the KH2P04 and have since had to buy KCI,
pure potassium. Using the calculator for those, I dose accordingly.

What is the ratio of KNO3, KH2P04 and trace elements in the PMDD
recipie you bought? By knowing that, is that how you're using Chuck's
calculator?

steve

With your calculations, why is it .23ppm nitrate per mL? I thought the
concentration was .23ppm for the entire 100ml mix. But, now that I look
at it more carefully I see that you are right.

Here's the way I had planned on mixing using the Chuck Gadd's
calculator. I would combine 100 ml of water with 3 tablespoons of PMDD
mix and dose for my 12 gallon tank. However, the concentration is too
great after reading your post. With the 3 tablespoons and 100ml of
water, it yields a concentration of 6.8ppm nitrate in KNO3. If I then
multiply by 100, I would get 680ppm, which is way too high. So perhaps
1/8 teaspoon of my mix with 100 ml is a better solution for my tank?
How does that seem?

On the front of the bag it says, "PMDD Pre-mix one pound, contains
equal parts: Plantex CSM + B, MgSO4+7H20, K2SO4, KNO3."

Thanks for the clarifications.

These are the results I get using .12 (1/8) teaspoons in 1 ml water for
10 gallons of water (in a 12 gallon tank):

10.85 ppm Nitrate - target is 5ppm
6.85 ppm Potassium - (from KNO3)
8.54 ppm Potassium - (from K2S04)
15.38 ppm Potassium total - target is 20ppm

1.7 ppm Magnesium - target is 5-10

So yeah, I think that's a good starting point as your're getting near
enough potassium and magnesium without going overboard on the nitrate.
Remember though, your fish food adds an amount of nitrate so I'd only
do the 1/8 teaspoon dose along with a 50 percent water change weekly.
If -a you got lottsa plants, they might use all the nitrates which is
good, then you can start dosing more.

steve

Ok, thanks for all your help. I have very few fish, so my nitrates get
used up very radiply. I normally get 0ppm. But I will watch that very
carefully. Thanks again!

Well you still need some PO4, K+ and NO3.
GH sounds fine.

You can add lots and lots of PO4 ansd have great pl;ant growth, PO4 is
not the issue that causes algae in planted tanks.
Tap water with 1-2ppm ranges are great, then you don't need to add
KH2PO4.

Regards,
Tom Barr