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Now I'm really worried!
Oh dear,
Following on from the Sad Day thread: I lost two of my SAE's and two more Neon Tetras suddenly this evening, just when I thought everything was okay. I didn't understand why after changing the water two days in a row (100% changed in two days) and getting my chemistry right and back to stable levels, why my fish were still passing away. Some of you may remember I posted a while back about a Serpae Tetra female that had what appeared to be an eaten away lower jaw due to "fungus"? (read on because it's a major sign of what I now suspect is happening) Well all of the Neons that have passed away have had this white-ish band across their head from gill to gill. The band appears seemingly over night, then they gasp at the surface, become disorientated and then die. My SAE's that passed tonight had darker bands from gill to gill and one of them was being chased literally to death by a rampant Hockey Stick Tetra who just wouldn't leave it alone. Considering that several factors have occurred of late in my tank, such as high temperature (30 C), dirty substrate (only discovered this two days ago and have vacuumed it clean each day since), low dissolved oxygen (a fairly rapid raise in hardness and CO2 combined with the high temperature), stress (trying to catch 5 BATs and disturbing one and all in the process - also there has been some inter-species, and in-species (being bothered by mates) spats) and a pretty big fluctuation in water quality, and slight over feeding it seems, over the last 3 weeks or so; I have come to the conclusion that what is now really killing my fish of could very well be *Columnaris flexibacter*. All the conditions have been there for it to develop and some of the dead fish have shown mild external symptoms of it (the bands on the heads, the dissolved lower jaw of the Serpae, and in the case of the bigger of the SAE's that died - rapid respiration, lethargy and a complete change in behavior several hours before and leading up to death). The two Swords that died a few days ago showed no symptoms what-so-ever - they just died very quickly, and they were both young and visibly very healthy. As Columnaris is gram-negative and contagious in warm de-oxygenated water, I can state that I am *very worried* it's going to wipe the entire fish population in my tank out. The treatment I believe, and I need the more experienced people in the groups to help me out here with this, is to lower the water temperature, oxygenate, siphon gravel daily (it reportedly can grow on excess food and waste on the gravel), change water daily and as a final resort dose with Potassium Permanganate or Sulfur compounds? Does this sound right? I have to act quickly on this or it's going to wipe the whole tank out, if it is C.f.. I honestly can't see it being anything other than this because my water and gravel are right on spec. I am also guessing this is the price you pay too for not home quarantining fish before they go into a tank? or are these bacteria always present in the water column waiting for the right conditions? If the worst happens and the entire population gets sick and dies, what is the procedure for the tank itself? Would you advise breaking the entire tank down, steralising everything (especially filters and gravel), dosing the plants in Potassium Permanganate/Bleach/H2O2 or something? Oh boy, please help if you can - I think I am in big trouble and I'm about to lose all of my fish :( Many thanks in advance, Oz -- My Aquatic web Blog is at http://members.optusnet.com.au/ivan.smith |
HI Oz,
A good old fall back that I always keep to hand is Malachite Green. Try the site http://www.fishdoc.co.uk/ It's very good but always read all the instructions as some things are not mixable or may need a drop in temp etc. One thing that is often recommended but oft forgotten is to turn off UV lighting. Hope that's of some help. Old Salt |
"Ozdude" wrote in message u... Oh dear, Following on from the Sad Day thread: I lost two of my SAE's and two more Neon Tetras suddenly this evening, just when I thought everything was okay. I didn't understand why after changing the water two days in a row (100% changed in two days) and getting my chemistry right and back to stable levels, why my fish were still passing away. Some of you may remember I posted a while back about a Serpae Tetra female that had what appeared to be an eaten away lower jaw due to "fungus"? (read on because it's a major sign of what I now suspect is happening) Well all of the Neons that have passed away have had this white-ish band across their head from gill to gill. The band appears seemingly over night, then they gasp at the surface, become disorientated and then die. My SAE's that passed tonight had darker bands from gill to gill and one of them was being chased literally to death by a rampant Hockey Stick Tetra who just wouldn't leave it alone. Considering that several factors have occurred of late in my tank, such as high temperature (30 C), dirty substrate (only discovered this two days ago and have vacuumed it clean each day since), low dissolved oxygen (a fairly rapid raise in hardness and CO2 combined with the high temperature), stress (trying to catch 5 BATs and disturbing one and all in the process - also there has been some inter-species, and in-species (being bothered by mates) spats) and a pretty big fluctuation in water quality, and slight over feeding it seems, over the last 3 weeks or so; I have come to the conclusion that what is now really killing my fish of could very well be *Columnaris flexibacter*. All the conditions have been there for it to develop and some of the dead fish have shown mild external symptoms of it (the bands on the heads, the dissolved lower jaw of the Serpae, and in the case of the bigger of the SAE's that died - rapid respiration, lethargy and a complete change in behavior several hours before and leading up to death). The two Swords that died a few days ago showed no symptoms what-so-ever - they just died very quickly, and they were both young and visibly very healthy. As Columnaris is gram-negative and contagious in warm de-oxygenated water, I can state that I am *very worried* it's going to wipe the entire fish population in my tank out. The treatment I believe, and I need the more experienced people in the groups to help me out here with this, is to lower the water temperature, oxygenate, siphon gravel daily (it reportedly can grow on excess food and waste on the gravel), change water daily and as a final resort dose with Potassium Permanganate or Sulfur compounds? Does this sound right? I have to act quickly on this or it's going to wipe the whole tank out, if it is C.f.. I honestly can't see it being anything other than this because my water and gravel are right on spec. I am also guessing this is the price you pay too for not home quarantining fish before they go into a tank? or are these bacteria always present in the water column waiting for the right conditions? If the worst happens and the entire population gets sick and dies, what is the procedure for the tank itself? Would you advise breaking the entire tank down, steralising everything (especially filters and gravel), dosing the plants in Potassium Permanganate/Bleach/H2O2 or something? Oh boy, please help if you can - I think I am in big trouble and I'm about to lose all of my fish :( Many thanks in advance, Oz -- My Aquatic web Blog is at http://members.optusnet.com.au/ivan.smith Not experienced, even remotely, but just done some research....from what I can see Potassium Permanganate is not the way to go - it can become more toxic the higher the pH level. Have you considered using Melafix/Pimafix? I also read that something containing Phenoxyethanol can help (don't know if it is contained in Melafix/Pimafix) - apparently it can be found in some proprietary medicines...Also read that an antibiotic such as oxytetracycline might be needed Apart from that it is water changes, gravel cleaning, trying to keep the temp down and the water oxygenated as you say.... Flexibacter columnaris apparently is quite commonly present in aquarium water, on dead organic matter and even on healthy fish skin.... Gill |
Oz, I think it's our Aussie climate. I have not added new fish for over
a year and about 6 weeks ago developed the same sort of symptoms you describe and I also put it down to Columnaris. My tanks temps have been regularly over 27 and for quite some time were over 30. I gravel vacc twice a week without fail. I have read over and over that Columnaris is nearly always present in a tank and something triggers it to blow out. I reckon the heat is a trigger. I'm hoping to have something sorted out for cooling by next summer although I doubt it will be for the same fish as I'm losing one a week. I've learned that: * Melafix and Pimafix are expensive and can lower the pH of your tank dramatically. It only slows down the problem, doesn't cure it. * Malachite green seems only available with formalin which can cause major damage to your good bacteria * UV sterilization seems complicated if you don't have the right filter to push the water through the device to start with. * I can't find a dose rate for potassium permanganate * A water cooling system seems also comlicated and untidy (I am a female :) * We don't seem to have access to antibiotics formulated for fish here in Oz and if you buy them from the vet, apart from expense, it will be in a form for some other animal and may have additives unsuitable for fish ie. an injectable form of the drug that has some liquid to "carry" the drug. If you come up with any answers PLEASE tell me. Good Luck! miskairal Ozdude wrote: Oh dear, Following on from the Sad Day thread: I lost two of my SAE's and two more Neon Tetras suddenly this evening, just when I thought everything was okay. I didn't understand why after changing the water two days in a row (100% changed in two days) and getting my chemistry right and back to stable levels, why my fish were still passing away. Some of you may remember I posted a while back about a Serpae Tetra female that had what appeared to be an eaten away lower jaw due to "fungus"? (read on because it's a major sign of what I now suspect is happening) Well all of the Neons that have passed away have had this white-ish band across their head from gill to gill. The band appears seemingly over night, then they gasp at the surface, become disorientated and then die. My SAE's that passed tonight had darker bands from gill to gill and one of them was being chased literally to death by a rampant Hockey Stick Tetra who just wouldn't leave it alone. Considering that several factors have occurred of late in my tank, such as high temperature (30 C), dirty substrate (only discovered this two days ago and have vacuumed it clean each day since), low dissolved oxygen (a fairly rapid raise in hardness and CO2 combined with the high temperature), stress (trying to catch 5 BATs and disturbing one and all in the process - also there has been some inter-species, and in-species (being bothered by mates) spats) and a pretty big fluctuation in water quality, and slight over feeding it seems, over the last 3 weeks or so; I have come to the conclusion that what is now really killing my fish of could very well be *Columnaris flexibacter*. All the conditions have been there for it to develop and some of the dead fish have shown mild external symptoms of it (the bands on the heads, the dissolved lower jaw of the Serpae, and in the case of the bigger of the SAE's that died - rapid respiration, lethargy and a complete change in behavior several hours before and leading up to death). The two Swords that died a few days ago showed no symptoms what-so-ever - they just died very quickly, and they were both young and visibly very healthy. As Columnaris is gram-negative and contagious in warm de-oxygenated water, I can state that I am *very worried* it's going to wipe the entire fish population in my tank out. The treatment I believe, and I need the more experienced people in the groups to help me out here with this, is to lower the water temperature, oxygenate, siphon gravel daily (it reportedly can grow on excess food and waste on the gravel), change water daily and as a final resort dose with Potassium Permanganate or Sulfur compounds? Does this sound right? I have to act quickly on this or it's going to wipe the whole tank out, if it is C.f.. I honestly can't see it being anything other than this because my water and gravel are right on spec. I am also guessing this is the price you pay too for not home quarantining fish before they go into a tank? or are these bacteria always present in the water column waiting for the right conditions? If the worst happens and the entire population gets sick and dies, what is the procedure for the tank itself? Would you advise breaking the entire tank down, steralising everything (especially filters and gravel), dosing the plants in Potassium Permanganate/Bleach/H2O2 or something? Oh boy, please help if you can - I think I am in big trouble and I'm about to lose all of my fish :( Many thanks in advance, Oz |
Go to the University of Florida website and read for yourself on the
preferred treatment for columinaris (sp?) its potassium permanganate. Thjis problem is perhaps the loargest problem any pond or fish keeper or fish farmer is going to encounter in this part. And PP is the approved preferred treatment in addition to antibiotic feeds....... check it out at: http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu Look for the articles on: Fungal Diseases of Fish (Fact Sheet VM97) Use of PP to Control External Infections of Ornamental Fish (Fact Sheet FA-37) Columnaris Disease ( SRAC pub #479) Potassium Permanganate in Fish Ponds (Fact Sheet FA-23) Oh and nowhere doe sit mention any warnings as to Ph requirements, but the use of MG does have warnings about PH as does other meds) Ph is not much of a concern with PP) Other than just visual signs have you scoped your fish to make a firm diagnosis..........If your going by seat of the pants diagnosis, you may well be in left field, but PP would still be applicable in most all but say for Ick, where a copper of MG/F would be the best choice) ============================================== Put some color in your cheeks...garden naked! |
"Old Salt" wrote in message oups.com... HI Oz, A good old fall back that I always keep to hand is Malachite Green. Try the site http://www.fishdoc.co.uk/ It's very good but always read all the instructions as some things are not mixable or may need a drop in temp etc. One thing that is often recommended but oft forgotten is to turn off UV lighting. Hope that's of some help. Hi, I am in Australia and the ambient temperatures here are keeping my water up at 28-30 degrees C, and there isn't a lot I can do to lower it. I am going to commission a 50L plastic storage container as a Q/H tank because I can cool 50L of water easier than 220L. I'll go up to the LFS today and see what they have. Thanks for your advice. Oz -- My Aquatic web Blog is at http://members.optusnet.com.au/ivan.smith |
On Fri, 04 Mar 2005 09:02:21 +1000, miskairal
wrote: Oz, I think it's our Aussie climate. I have not added new fish for over a year and about 6 weeks ago developed the same sort of symptoms you describe and I also put it down to Columnaris. Excuse me for my ignorance if it shows but are your homes air conditioned in Australia? In Canada, if the temp gets to 30C plus for weeks on end most have air conditioners installed to keep it at 22-25C. All the best, Larry |
"Gill Passman" gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk wrote in message .. . Not experienced, even remotely, but just done some research....from what I can see Potassium Permanganate is not the way to go - it can become more toxic the higher the pH level. Have you considered using Melafix/Pimafix? I also read that something containing Phenoxyethanol can help (don't know if it is contained in Melafix/Pimafix) - apparently it can be found in some proprietary medicines...Also read that an antibiotic such as oxytetracycline might be needed Apart from that it is water changes, gravel cleaning, trying to keep the temp down and the water oxygenated as you say.... Flexibacter columnaris apparently is quite commonly present in aquarium water, on dead organic matter and even on healthy fish skin.... Hi Gill, I am off to the LFS today to ask their advice too. They probably have the chemical resolutions but I know they don't carry medicated foods. I read about MelaFix/PimaFix myself, on a few sites, but it seems it doesn't really rid the tank of it. I went to AP's web site and checked out the FAQ on these products and I like it that they are natural and don't affect snail, plants or pH, and there is a small possibility I may be able to use these two products, but there is some discussion around on the forum boards (particularly Cichlid and Betta boards) that say it doesn't really fix the problem. I find this hard to believe personally, as I know what Melaluca (Tea Tree) can do for human bacterial infections, and I have no reason to think it won't do the same for fish. Roy has stated that Flex is present always in everyone's tank, and considering that fact, it makes sense that if a fish becomes stressed through what-ever reason it's natural defense to it is going to break down. I am shocked at how filthy my gravel was and I can't begin to stress how important it is you get a really good gravel cleaner that suits your tank. I was using a cleaner suitable for a small tank and when I bought the new 22" one I'd say it sucked up 400% more junk on it's first use that the little one just wasn't able to pull up out of the substrate. Any way, I'll visit the LFS and I also am going to remove all of my plants from their plastic pots full of clay kitty litter and replant them into the substrate proper. I am suspicious that the clay in the litter is part of my bacterial problem because I lifted a pot out a while ago and noticed at the line where gravel and litter met there was a thin bright green band of what looked like algae - I suspect now it isn't - it's probably bacterial. I will wait a while to do this though unless it (Flex) gets so bad it gets out of control. I don't think I should stress the fish if I can help it - I need them to build up as much natural immunity/ability as possible right now - there is war on! ;) Regards, Oz -- My Aquatic web Blog is at http://members.optusnet.com.au/ivan.smith |
"miskairal" wrote in message ... Oz, I think it's our Aussie climate. I have not added new fish for over a year and about 6 weeks ago developed the same sort of symptoms you describe and I also put it down to Columnaris. I totally agree with you. My water has been at 29/30C for ages now and I can't get it down for more than a few hours. This in itself is enough to stress some weak fish IMO. I am in total agreement that temperature has more than a passing contribution to this. My tanks temps have been regularly over 27 and for quite some time were over 30. I gravel vacc twice a week without fail. I have read over and over that Columnaris is nearly always present in a tank and something triggers it to blow out. I reckon the heat is a trigger. I have had several of the other factors like dirty gravel, unstable water, stress, sudden water quality shifts and low dissolved oxygen. I am getting into a routine now of daily gravel vacuuming and generally tidying the tank up and I think this is going to be the norm from now on if I don't want to lose fish left right and centre for no apparent reason.. I'm hoping to have something sorted out for cooling by next summer although I doubt it will be for the same fish as I'm losing one a week. Sorry to hear that. It's terrible that it's so sudden and unexpected too. One minute they are fine and the next they're dead! I've learned that: * Melafix and Pimafix are expensive and can lower the pH of your tank dramatically. It only slows down the problem, doesn't cure it. I am finding this out too by visiting discussion boards. * Malachite green seems only available with formalin which can cause major damage to your good bacteria Shouldn't be an issue if I use it in a temporary hospital tank. * UV sterilization seems complicated if you don't have the right filter to push the water through the device to start with. I can't begin to even think about this through lack of financial resources;) * I can't find a dose rate for potassium permanganate If I do, I'll post it for you. I am looking at this seriously and I can get PP very easily. * A water cooling system seems also comlicated and untidy (I am a female :) * We don't seem to have access to antibiotics formulated for fish here in Oz and if you buy them from the vet, apart from expense, it will be in a form for some other animal and may have additives unsuitable for fish ie. an injectable form of the drug that has some liquid to "carry" the drug. I wonder why we can't buy medicated food in this country? I think it's time to really get the tank clean and keep it clean. That's the first thing I should do. And ultimately hope that summer passes, so we can all get our water down to a reasonable temperature, but then at lower temps we get ich if we're not careful - it's a minefield this aquarium thing! ;) If you come up with any answers PLEASE tell me. Don't worry I will ;) Good Luck! Thanks. Oz -- My Aquatic web Blog is at http://members.optusnet.com.au/ivan.smith |
"Larry" wrote in message ... On Fri, 04 Mar 2005 09:02:21 +1000, miskairal wrote: Oz, I think it's our Aussie climate. I have not added new fish for over a year and about 6 weeks ago developed the same sort of symptoms you describe and I also put it down to Columnaris. Excuse me for my ignorance if it shows but are your homes air conditioned in Australia? In Canada, if the temp gets to 30C plus for weeks on end most have air conditioners installed to keep it at 22-25C. No, not all. It's quite common in Queensland and the Northern Territory, for instance to use large ceiling fans. I myself use a fan. Air conditioning is causing our state power grids to struggle and is actually a big issue at the moment as to energy use. Power isn't cheap in this country and most people on lower incomes can't afford either the power or the air-con in the first place. Personally, heat doesn't bother me - I like it and you learn if you come from the the driest inhabited state on the planet (South Australia) as I do, how to cool a house using naural methods. It involves "farming" cool air from the night and trapping it in the house - un-airconditioned homes are ususally the ones on a 40C day with all the windows and blinds shut - to keep the solar radiation out and keep the cool air farmed from the night in. It all seems strange to those who have air conditioners to level out their cooling and heating, and I have been chuckling a bit lately because of a program they show on TV here called "A Place In ....." where English couples go looking for houses in Europe somewhere - they always whinge on about central heating or air conditioning and won't buy a place if it doesn't have one or the other or both :) Oz -- My Aquatic web Blog is at http://members.optusnet.com.au/ivan.smith |
"Ozdude" wrote in message ... "Gill Passman" gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk wrote in message .. . Not experienced, even remotely, but just done some research....from what I can see Potassium Permanganate is not the way to go - it can become more toxic the higher the pH level. Have you considered using Melafix/Pimafix? I also read that something containing Phenoxyethanol can help (don't know if it is contained in Melafix/Pimafix) - apparently it can be found in some proprietary medicines...Also read that an antibiotic such as oxytetracycline might be needed Apart from that it is water changes, gravel cleaning, trying to keep the temp down and the water oxygenated as you say.... Flexibacter columnaris apparently is quite commonly present in aquarium water, on dead organic matter and even on healthy fish skin.... Hi Gill, I am off to the LFS today to ask their advice too. They probably have the chemical resolutions but I know they don't carry medicated foods. I read about MelaFix/PimaFix myself, on a few sites, but it seems it doesn't really rid the tank of it. I went to AP's web site and checked out the FAQ on these products and I like it that they are natural and don't affect snail, plants or pH, and there is a small possibility I may be able to use these two products, but there is some discussion around on the forum boards (particularly Cichlid and Betta boards) that say it doesn't really fix the problem. I find this hard to believe personally, as I know what Melaluca (Tea Tree) can do for human bacterial infections, and I have no reason to think it won't do the same for fish. Roy has stated that Flex is present always in everyone's tank, and considering that fact, it makes sense that if a fish becomes stressed through what-ever reason it's natural defense to it is going to break down. I am shocked at how filthy my gravel was and I can't begin to stress how important it is you get a really good gravel cleaner that suits your tank. I was using a cleaner suitable for a small tank and when I bought the new 22" one I'd say it sucked up 400% more junk on it's first use that the little one just wasn't able to pull up out of the substrate. Any way, I'll visit the LFS and I also am going to remove all of my plants from their plastic pots full of clay kitty litter and replant them into the substrate proper. I am suspicious that the clay in the litter is part of my bacterial problem because I lifted a pot out a while ago and noticed at the line where gravel and litter met there was a thin bright green band of what looked like algae - I suspect now it isn't - it's probably bacterial. I will wait a while to do this though unless it (Flex) gets so bad it gets out of control. I don't think I should stress the fish if I can help it - I need them to build up as much natural immunity/ability as possible right now - there is war on! ;) Regards, Oz -- My Aquatic web Blog is at http://members.optusnet.com.au/ivan.smith Hi Oz, Just one thing, which isn't really important at the moment...I tried taking the plants out of their pots and got into a total mess (especially with the clowns digging them up). Also makes it a bit harder when cleaning the gravel - a job normally reserved for "hubby" as he's got more strength in his arms than I do these days - plants go everywhere - (wish he was as vigourous with the vaccuum cleaner in the house - lol)....at least it is easier to reposition them if they are contained in pots.... When it comes to adding chemicals pH has to be a major concern....chemicals can react differently depending on whether added to acid, alkaline or neutral substances. I would research very carefully before going down this route. Yours is borderline acid/neutral at the moment in the tank and your tap water is alkaline as far as I can tell from your postings....I'm not a chemist so I'm not sure of the exact implications of adding the Potassium Permanganate but I know someone who is...too late to phone them now but I should be able to talk to them tomorrow if it would help.... If this is always present in the water - which seems to be what everyone is saying - maybe it is down to treating the symptoms right now to sort the fish and then taking a step back and review to stopping it happening again....maybe it isn't possible to get rid of permanently, maybe we all have it in our tanks..... Anyway see what your LFS says... Good Luck and best wishes Gill |
"Ozdude" wrote in message ... "Larry" wrote in message ... On Fri, 04 Mar 2005 09:02:21 +1000, miskairal wrote: Oz, I think it's our Aussie climate. I have not added new fish for over a year and about 6 weeks ago developed the same sort of symptoms you describe and I also put it down to Columnaris. Excuse me for my ignorance if it shows but are your homes air conditioned in Australia? In Canada, if the temp gets to 30C plus for weeks on end most have air conditioners installed to keep it at 22-25C. No, not all. It's quite common in Queensland and the Northern Territory, for instance to use large ceiling fans. I myself use a fan. Air conditioning is causing our state power grids to struggle and is actually a big issue at the moment as to energy use. Power isn't cheap in this country and most people on lower incomes can't afford either the power or the air-con in the first place. Personally, heat doesn't bother me - I like it and you learn if you come from the the driest inhabited state on the planet (South Australia) as I do, how to cool a house using naural methods. It involves "farming" cool air from the night and trapping it in the house - un-airconditioned homes are ususally the ones on a 40C day with all the windows and blinds shut - to keep the solar radiation out and keep the cool air farmed from the night in. It all seems strange to those who have air conditioners to level out their cooling and heating, and I have been chuckling a bit lately because of a program they show on TV here called "A Place In ....." where English couples go looking for houses in Europe somewhere - they always whinge on about central heating or air conditioning and won't buy a place if it doesn't have one or the other or both :) Oz -- My Aquatic web Blog is at http://members.optusnet.com.au/ivan.smith Sorry I can't let this pass being English - lol Having spent the last few weeks (coldest this winter) with no Central Heating (boiler dead) some of us English are capable of controlling our temps...I do a better job with the fish than the kids granted - OK in the winter we usually use the CH but in the summer it's all blinds and fans - bit worried it will get too hot for the fish though later in the year (this will be our first full summer with them) - so watch this space when I ask you guys on how to cool things down :-) ....might get tempted to buy an AirCon unit but only for the fish of course.... So the English are now farming out their "more interesting" TV progs to you guys...hey it might be revenge for Neighbours - lol Gill |
Organic latent (uneaten foods and fish waste) waters create conditions
that encourage disease, parasites, and opportunistic bacteria, besides the build-up of DOCs, which by the way, adds to the TDS level. NitrAte levels can get quite high. As these organics decay, they use a lot of oxygen - the process is called eutrophication. The same thing happens within your filter if you don't pre-filter, or clean the intrapment media - the filter itself becomes the source of organic pollution! It also enhances conversion of nitrAte to nitrite. Docs (dissolved organic compounds) inhibit nitrification and increase BOD (bio-chemical oxygen demand) - high BOD reduces amount of oxygen in tank. DOCs are not detected by a hardness test, however they will measure on a conductivity meter. By comparing the differences between the two test you can determine DOC levels. DOCs become part of the TDS reading - while the TDS value may very slighty, it must be maintained within a nerrow range (slowly increased or decreased - 20%) - thus, a water change of no more than 20% on a tank with little or no maintenance...... The symptoms you gave don't add up to Flex. disease - no white fuzzy lesions of the mouth or white fuzzy patches scattered over the body! I would suspect another gram-negative bacterium called Aeromonas - fits your symptoms better - a secondary bacterial infection as is Flex. Treated the same as you would treat Flex. disease, sometimes infects at the same time as Flex. Feeding a medicated food along with adding an antibiotic to the tank is the best treatment. Tetra's medicated foods don't work on Flex. disease - get a Waterlife product called Protozin and Myxazin (medicated food). For treating the tank, Potassium Permanganate works, 1/2 tsp. per 10 gals, but takes longer than Maracyn-Two or Kanamycin. Oxytetracycline, Erythromycin or Enrofloxacin (baytril) are faster but they would also knock out your bio-filter...... You say your water parameters/quality is good - your temp. got to high, tanks substrate dirty, and you did a 100% water change in two days - a bit of fluctuation going on there. Here is the five points of defining water quality; #1 - organic pollution, #2 - ammonia, nitrite and nitrAte, #3 - dH, pH, temperature. #4 chemically clean, ie; chlorine, heavy metals, treatment chemicals, organophosphates, #5 - ***stability***, not fluctuation............ Frank |
On 3 Mar 2005 17:07:54 -0800, "Frank" wrote:
snip ===For treating the tank, Potassium ===Permanganate works, 1/2 tsp. per 10 gals, but takes longer than ===Maracyn-Two or Kanamycin. Oxytetracycline, Erythromycin or Enrofloxacin ===(baytril) are faster but they would also knock out your ===bio-filter......snip I don't quite understand this statement about PP working but not as fast as Maracyn-2 etc etc... PP is not a medication. Its an oxidizer. The other items are antibiotics. While antibiotic levels in water will kill some things, it usually takes alot longer for it to do any good, as its usually a 3 or more day treatment. PP on the other hand will knock out any nasties within 4 to 8 hours........but will do nothing in the line of providing antibiotic supplement to the fish. Therefore its always best to follow up with antibiotics in the water or feed, when using PP. Even though the fish may be cured with PP, it is still susceptible to reinfection as its immune system is down or low....... I'm missing something here.................. ============================================== Put some color in your cheeks...garden naked! |
Ozdude wrote:
* UV sterilization seems complicated if you don't have the right filter to push the water through the device to start with. I can't begin to even think about this through lack of financial resources;) Well the same here really but I thought I should at least look into it. * I can't find a dose rate for potassium permanganate If I do, I'll post it for you. I am looking at this seriously and I can get PP very easily. * A water cooling system seems also comlicated and untidy (I am a female :) * We don't seem to have access to antibiotics formulated for fish here in Oz and if you buy them from the vet, apart from expense, it will be in a form for some other animal and may have additives unsuitable for fish ie. an injectable form of the drug that has some liquid to "carry" the drug. I wonder why we can't buy medicated food in this country? I dont' think you can get it in the UK either??? Because there are too many idiots out there who do one of the following a) Don't continue the course long enough and cause drug resistance b) Don't use the correct strength and cause drug resistance c) Dump water in our creeks etc and cause nature problems d) Put it in the food of animals that are going to be slaughtered for human consumption ....to name a few. Now if it were in medicated food, how would you get the correct dosage to the fish? If the fish is sick, it probably is not eating enough (if at all) and therefore you would be exposing those bacteria to an antibiotic but not in the strength to kill it or all of them. The survivors are the ones who are resistant to that antibiotic. If those fish being treated were from a fish farm then those bacteria that are resistant could enter the human food chain and the time is already here when many human bacteria are now resistant to most, if not all, antibiotics. I get annoyed that I can't get antibiotics for fish until I start to think of what could happen. In the long run I don't suppose it will help Aust. b/c the countries that allow free use of antibiotics will bring in their resistant bugs here anyway. I think it's time to really get the tank clean and keep it clean. That's the first thing I should do. And ultimately hope that summer passes, so we can all get our water down to a reasonable temperature, but then at lower temps we get ich if we're not careful - it's a minefield this aquarium thing! ;) I just heard it is forecast to get to 36 here tomorrow - it's autumn isn't it? If you come up with any answers PLEASE tell me. Don't worry I will ;) Good Luck! ThankYOU! Thanks. Oz |
Roy~ wrote:
Go to the University of Florida website and read for yourself on the preferred treatment for columinaris (sp?) its potassium permanganate. Thjis problem is perhaps the loargest problem any pond or fish keeper or fish farmer is going to encounter in this part. And PP is the approved preferred treatment in addition to antibiotic feeds....... check it out at: http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu Look for the articles on: Fungal Diseases of Fish (Fact Sheet VM97) Use of PP to Control External Infections of Ornamental Fish (Fact Sheet FA-37) Columnaris Disease ( SRAC pub #479) Potassium Permanganate in Fish Ponds (Fact Sheet FA-23) Oh and nowhere doe sit mention any warnings as to Ph requirements, but the use of MG does have warnings about PH as does other meds) Ph is not much of a concern with PP) Other than just visual signs have you scoped your fish to make a firm diagnosis..........If your going by seat of the pants diagnosis, you may well be in left field, but PP would still be applicable in most all but say for Ick, where a copper of MG/F would be the best choice) ============================================== Put some color in your cheeks...garden naked! I can't seem to get anywhere at that website. I keep getting this message java.rmi.ConnectException: Connection refused to host: 128.227.96.39; nested exception is: java.net.ConnectException: Connection refused at sun.rmi.transport.tcp.TCPEndpoint.newSocket(TCPEnd point.java:567) at firefox 1.0 any ideas? |
Frank wrote:
The symptoms you gave don't add up to Flex. disease - no white fuzzy lesions of the mouth or white fuzzy patches scattered over the body! I would suspect another gram-negative bacterium called Aeromonas - fits your symptoms better - a secondary bacterial infection as is Flex. Treated the same as you would treat Flex. disease, sometimes infects at the same time as Flex. Feeding a medicated food along with adding an antibiotic to the tank is the best treatment. Tetra's medicated foods don't work on Flex. disease - get a Waterlife product called Protozin and Myxazin (medicated food). Apparently Myxazin and Protozin will no longer be available in Australia. |
In article .com,
Old Salt wrote: HI Oz, A good old fall back that I always keep to hand is Malachite Green. All I've ever managed to do with that stuff is kill fish. I have much better luck with Acriflavine. Not quite as toxic; contains no copper. One of the problems with copper (besides being letah to invertebrates) is it precipitates out into copper carbonate. So you need to add more. then when the pH goes more acidic it all comes back into solution at once. Nasty stuff. -- Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org http://www.mbz.org | Mercedes Mailing lists: http://lists.mbz.org 633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | Killies, killi.net, Crypts, aquaria.net 1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Old wris****ches http://watches.list.mbz.org |
I successfully cure columnaris ("flex") woth Acriflavine. There are good
reasons to never use antibiotics in aquarium water. Acriflavine takes about 3 weeks. The disease loevs heat so keep them cool as possible. Bettas are realy prone to this disease. -- Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org http://www.mbz.org | Mercedes Mailing lists: http://lists.mbz.org 633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | Killies, killi.net, Crypts, aquaria.net 1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Old wris****ches http://watches.list.mbz.org |
conditioned in Australia? In Canada, if the temp gets to 30C plus for
weeks on end most have air conditioners installed to keep it at 22-25C. Yes, indeed. But only in summer. Last year this happened on a tuesday in August. -- Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org http://www.mbz.org | Mercedes Mailing lists: http://lists.mbz.org 633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | Killies, killi.net, Crypts, aquaria.net 1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Old wris****ches http://watches.list.mbz.org |
1/2 tsp per 10 gal. of PP is the dose amount. Treatment takes 4 days,
but reinfection is high. Because it is *not* a medication or antibiotic, with Flex. disease, most or all the fish will likely be dead by the end of the second day. PP will raise the pH, and the tanks temp is to warm - two things that speeds up the killing time when it comes to Flex. disease. Antibiotics on the other hand, kills the bacteria for the most part, the 1st. day. A 10 day treatment is tipical with antibiotics, well over twice as long as really needed as for as treating the fish. The extra time is to cover your behind, making sure not to end up with a resistance bacteria/disease. ........ Frank |
Ozdude wrote:
Oh dear, Following on from the Sad Day thread: I lost two of my SAE's and two more Neon Tetras suddenly this evening, just when I thought everything was okay. I didn't understand why after changing the water two days in a row (100% changed in two days) and getting my chemistry right and back to stable levels, why my fish were still passing away. Some of you may remember I posted a while back about a Serpae Tetra female that had what appeared to be an eaten away lower jaw due to "fungus"? (read on because it's a major sign of what I now suspect is happening) Well all of the Neons that have passed away have had this white-ish band across their head from gill to gill. The band appears seemingly over night, then they gasp at the surface, become disorientated and then die. My SAE's that passed tonight had darker bands from gill to gill and one of them was being chased literally to death by a rampant Hockey Stick Tetra who just wouldn't leave it alone. Considering that several factors have occurred of late in my tank, such as high temperature (30 C), dirty substrate (only discovered this two days ago and have vacuumed it clean each day since), low dissolved oxygen (a fairly rapid raise in hardness and CO2 combined with the high temperature), stress (trying to catch 5 BATs and disturbing one and all in the process - also there has been some inter-species, and in-species (being bothered by mates) spats) and a pretty big fluctuation in water quality, and slight over feeding it seems, over the last 3 weeks or so; I have come to the conclusion that what is now really killing my fish of could very well be *Columnaris flexibacter*. All the conditions have been there for it to develop and some of the dead fish have shown mild external symptoms of it (the bands on the heads, the dissolved lower jaw of the Serpae, and in the case of the bigger of the SAE's that died - rapid respiration, lethargy and a complete change in behavior several hours before and leading up to death). The two Swords that died a few days ago showed no symptoms what-so-ever - they just died very quickly, and they were both young and visibly very healthy. As Columnaris is gram-negative and contagious in warm de-oxygenated water, I can state that I am *very worried* it's going to wipe the entire fish population in my tank out. The treatment I believe, and I need the more experienced people in the groups to help me out here with this, is to lower the water temperature, oxygenate, siphon gravel daily (it reportedly can grow on excess food and waste on the gravel), change water daily and as a final resort dose with Potassium Permanganate or Sulfur compounds? Does this sound right? I have to act quickly on this or it's going to wipe the whole tank out, if it is C.f.. I honestly can't see it being anything other than this because my water and gravel are right on spec. I am also guessing this is the price you pay too for not home quarantining fish before they go into a tank? or are these bacteria always present in the water column waiting for the right conditions? If the worst happens and the entire population gets sick and dies, what is the procedure for the tank itself? Would you advise breaking the entire tank down, steralising everything (especially filters and gravel), dosing the plants in Potassium Permanganate/Bleach/H2O2 or something? Oh boy, please help if you can - I think I am in big trouble and I'm about to lose all of my fish :( Many thanks in advance, Oz If you can get it, feed food soaked in dissolved oxytetracycline for 10 days. The advantage of medicated food is that it won't affect your filter the way PP, acriflavine, or dissolved antibiotics would. I agree with others that it doesn't sound like flexibacter, but oxytetracycline is broad-spectrum and good for many fish diseases. You're already cleaning the tank and keeping the fish in very clean water, which is the other key for managing a disease. BTW, chin up! You're beating yourself up unfairly. This can be a challenging hobby at time and you've been doing your absolute best. -- __ Elaine T __ __' http://eethomp.com/fish.html '__ |
In article .com,
Frank wrote: 1/2 tsp per 10 gal. of PP is the dose amount. Treatment takes 4 days, but reinfection is high. Because it is *not* a medication or antibiotic, with Flex. disease, most or all the fish will likely be dead by the end of the second day. PP will raise the pH, and the tanks Nonsense. It may be a quick or slow death or the fish may not die at all. Dieter Untergasser in _Handbook of fish diseases_ discusses this at some length. Anything used to cure the fish is a "medication". Oddly he does not list permanganate as a cure. I believe Jungle labs makes a proprietary flex cure. (I use acriflavine which seems to work) -- Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org http://www.mbz.org | Mercedes Mailing lists: http://lists.mbz.org 633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | Killies, killi.net, Crypts, aquaria.net 1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Old wris****ches http://watches.list.mbz.org |
"Gill Passman" gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk wrote in message .. . Hi Oz, Just one thing, which isn't really important at the moment...I tried taking the plants out of their pots and got into a total mess (especially with the clowns digging them up). Also makes it a bit harder when cleaning the gravel - a job normally reserved for "hubby" as he's got more strength in his arms than I do these days - plants go everywhere - (wish he was as vigourous with the vaccuum cleaner in the house - lol)....at least it is easier to reposition them if they are contained in pots.... I don't find an issue with potted plants in my tank. The root systems seem to really take off in this tank. I lifted (or tried to;) one of my giant Hygro. this evening and I couldn't get it out of the gravel. What roots I did see where a brilliant white, so that's a good thing - my plants are very healthy generally it seems. They were all pearling away again today, so I think it's all about right on the aqua-flora front ;) I find with plants in substrate, the sooner and better their root balls develop the less chance they have of being up-rooted by accident or digging fish. Most of my plants have been there long enough to have developed natural anchoring, except the newest additions, which were the Dwarf Blue Strica, Hygrophilia polysperma and a plant that looks like a large leafed Pennywort (the name escapes me atm). They have up-rooted at various times during the last few days from gravel siphoning, but what has lifted has revealed root balls well on their way. I also figure that if I am going to replant then the transplant shock will be less on these newer plants than on the quite established ones. I had to cut the polysperma back this evening actually because it was starting to grow out of the top of the tank ;) I am amazed at how easy and rewarding aquatic gardening can be as lonng as you properly light, fertilize and plant in the first place. It's actually funny in a way - I thought I would have the most trouble with the plants, but it's actually the reverse - trouble with the fish and success with the plants. When it comes to adding chemicals pH has to be a major concern....chemicals can react differently depending on whether added to acid, alkaline or neutral substances. I would research very carefully before going down this route. Yours is borderline acid/neutral at the moment in the tank and your tap water is alkaline as far as I can tell from your postings....I'm not a chemist so I'm not sure of the exact implications of adding the Potassium Permanganate but I know someone who is...too late to phone them now but I should be able to talk to them tomorrow if it would help.... I can't get PP atm, so the lovely lady at the LFS I frequent most (LFS#1 I call it) gave me a bottle each of MelaFix and PimaFix on credit. I have performed a 30% water change and gravel vacuuming, and I rinsed the the sponges and changed to new filter floss in the filters before a dosing of Tri-sulfur medication which I already had. This turned the water white milky for an hour or so and no-one seemed to be bothered by it. When I moved the second filter to get the basket off it I also discovered the dead Neon I haven't been able to find for the last 24 hours, trapped behind the bracket. I then waited another hour or so and I dosed with a combination of MelaFix and PimaFix at the recommended dose (5ml per 40L). The fish did something quite amazing - they all got into their species and shoaled around the tank. The MelaFix really stank of Tea Tree and I thought I may have over dosed, in combination with the Tri-sulfur a few hours before. I noticed about 30 minutes later after the shoaling behaviour stopped a couple of the Serpaes and both female Swordtails dashing themselves on the substrate breifly - I was actually glad to see this - I think it was behaviour indicative of ridding themselves of parasites, flukes or other pests. I haven't seen anything come out of the fish, and at lights out all of their coats looked very healthy. The Serpae males are the darkest orange I've ever seen them and they fluttering about the place and "dancing" around the females. The male Black Phantoms were doing the same thing but they were almost jet black - a blue black - beautiful to see and watch. I then topped the remainder of the tank up with about 15% of it's water with an ammonia neutralising water conditioner for my peace of mind. Then I noticed my lone Mystery Snail having resparitory problems at the front of the tank on the substrate, so I removed it immediately and washed it in some of the prechange tank water and placed it in the tank with the BATs. I may lose it because it wasn't that active in the smaller tank. I think the Tri-Sulfur may have had an effect on it because I'm pretty sure the XXXXfix meds didn't do it. Perhaps I should have waited for a day before dosing with the XXXXfix solutions, but apart from the snail there is nothing more than a white covering on the glass surfaces (I expected this because the filters would have been knocked out by the Tri-Sulfur and the XXXXfix add organics to the water - so any bacteria I would expect to turn white). I'll actually leave it for now as the deaths seem to have stopped and there are no visible symptoms at all on any of the remaining fish, and seeing the glass turned cloudy white, I am pretty sure all bacteria in the tank was actually gotten at by these combo meds. Time will tell now. I'll do a water change in 3 days time and keep my eye on the creatures. The pH was measured at hourly intervals over about 5 hours and never went off neutral (7.0) the whole time. I didn't measure hardness this time beacuse I was too busy freaking out about over-dosing ;) If after the water change, in 3 day, I notice any more symptoms then I have enough XXXXfix solutions to apply the recommended dosages for 7 days as advised on the bottles. I could do another tri-sulfur too, but I am hesitant to use that stuff because it's pretty severe. I don't fancy turning the tank pink with PP and then oxidising/neutralising it with Hydrogen Peroxide (H2O2)/ Too much messing with quite dangerous chemicals for my liking - there is too much at stake atm. Just waiting and monitoring for now.... ;) If this is always present in the water - which seems to be what everyone is saying - maybe it is down to treating the symptoms right now to sort the fish and then taking a step back and review to stopping it happening again....maybe it isn't possible to get rid of permanently, maybe we all have it in our tanks..... Anyway see what your LFS says... LFS lady tells me it's always in every tank and in almost every fish. It's a matter of providing the right seeding conditions for it to break out. She assures me that applying the tri-sulfur in combination with the XXXXfix'es will kill it everywhere it is in the tank atm, but warns me that it could return if I don't keep my gravel clean, water changed and stable or I introduce stressed fish without quaranting them. She also states that most Flex comes on fish from a LFS and really drummed it into me that I should be quarantining all of the fish, even the ones from her for a minimum of 3 weeks, if I don't want it to break out again. She also pointed out that none of the sale tanks had any substrate in them because she has had a store wide Flex outbreak - I'd never considered that was why ;) I guess, I could personally say that all this carry on about tank maintinence is actually for a reason, and a very good reason. I also can't stress enough to people now, that an appropriate gravel cleaner is imperative for each tank you have. You live and learn ;) Good Luck and best wishes Thanks so much. I hope the worst is now over and I can get on with a more balanced tank. I'm sure more aware now of possible problems which can occur if certain conditions are presented. ;) Regards, Oz -- My Aquatic web Blog is at http://members.optusnet.com.au/ivan.smith |
"Richard Sexton" wrote in message ... I believe Jungle labs makes a proprietary flex cure. (I use acriflavine which seems to work) You know what? I use a crystaline water conditioner available here at K-Mart which contains Acriflavin; I stopped using it two weeks ago and up until stopping using, apart from the Female Serpae with the eaten away mouth (most definately Flex) that one time, I've never had a parasitic or bacterial infection. It seems when i stopped using it, the tank got sick - it could be just timing because I really didn't know how dirty my substrate actually was and I think this was a major contributer. Could be just serendipity. Oz -- My Aquatic web Blog is at http://members.optusnet.com.au/ivan.smith |
"miskairal" wrote in message ... Because there are too many idiots out there who do one of the following a) Don't continue the course long enough and cause drug resistance b) Don't use the correct strength and cause drug resistance c) Dump water in our creeks etc and cause nature problems d) Put it in the food of animals that are going to be slaughtered for human consumption ...to name a few. And all of us that have come home on International Flights know how staunch Australian quarantine restirictions are. These are all very good reasons. It's clear to me now that medicated food isn't the only answer. Prevention is definately better than cure, to start with, but even so if cure is called for because prevention failed, it's seemingly quite possible to treat the water column and all inhabitants. If Flex and bacteria live on substrate and in filters etc., then it makes more sense to treat globally than specifically. As a few people have already pointed out - treating the fish only is part of the answer but not the whole. I read on a betta site last night that C.f. actually does have some highly resistant strains now, something like the super-bug in hospitals that no anti-biotic can beat. There is always the option too of breaking the tank down - completely disinfecting and steralizing it and starting again, which in itself isn't such a bad thing. At least you get a second chance to get your aquascaping and things you got wrong first time around, right ;) Now if it were in medicated food, how would you get the correct dosage to the fish? If the fish is sick, it probably is not eating enough (if at all) and therefore you would be exposing those bacteria to an antibiotic but not in the strength to kill it or all of them. The survivors are the ones who are resistant to that antibiotic. If those fish being treated were from a fish farm then those bacteria that are resistant could enter the human food chain and the time is already here when many human bacteria are now resistant to most, if not all, antibiotics. I treated my tank with tri-sulphur and the two XXXXfix fluids today and I had a bit of a brainstorm about mediacted food - instead of flakes, pellets or bloodworms - they got fed sinking wafers in a DIY feeder which prevents it from settling on the substrate (an inverted plastic lid with a sucker attached - half way down the water column which acts as a platform). As the food absorbs the water it takes up the meds and you have a sort of crude medicated feed. I figured it wouldn't hurt them because it's also getting into their blood via respiration through the gill membranes. I get annoyed that I can't get antibiotics for fish until I start to think of what could happen. In the long run I don't suppose it will help Aust. b/c the countries that allow free use of antibiotics will bring in their resistant bugs here anyway. This is why our quarantine is so full on - Australia prides itself on it's freedom from o/s problems like this. BSE is a good example of this policy in action. I just heard it is forecast to get to 36 here tomorrow - it's autumn isn't it? It is indeed, but over the last decade at least I've noticed the seasons moving to slightly later into the year. There are also the El Ninio and La Nina effects we have influencing the weather here ;( Oz -- My Aquatic web Blog is at http://members.optusnet.com.au/ivan.smith |
"miskairal" wrote in message ... I can't seem to get anywhere at that website. I keep getting this message java.rmi.ConnectException: Connection refused to host: 128.227.96.39; nested exception is: java.net.ConnectException: Connection refused at sun.rmi.transport.tcp.TCPEndpoint.newSocket(TCPEnd point.java:567) at firefox 1.0 any ideas? I'm using Forefox 1.0.1 and just got through. I couldn't last night though. Try again with 1.0.1? Oz -- My Aquatic web Blog is at http://members.optusnet.com.au/ivan.smith |
Ozdude wrote: I am shocked at how filthy my gravel was and I can't begin to stress how important it is you get a really good gravel cleaner that suits your tank. I was using a cleaner suitable for a small tank and when I bought the new 22" one I'd say it sucked up 400% more junk on it's first use that the little one just wasn't able to pull up out of the substrate. If this is true, don't you think people who use soil or even mammal dung in their tank substrate would have massive water quality problems? A large portion of the planted tank keepers do no deep gravel vac'ing at all. steve |
"Elaine T" wrote in message om... If you can get it, feed food soaked in dissolved oxytetracycline for 10 days. The advantage of medicated food is that it won't affect your filter the way PP, acriflavine, or dissolved antibiotics would. I agree with others that it doesn't sound like flexibacter, but oxytetracycline is broad-spectrum and good for many fish diseases. You're already cleaning the tank and keeping the fish in very clean water, which is the other key for managing a disease. BTW, chin up! You're beating yourself up unfairly. This can be a challenging hobby at time and you've been doing your absolute best. Thnaks for your encouraging words. I'm not really beating myself up as far as I can see. It's just one of the many aspects to this hobby. I was a little astounded that a substrate that *looked healthy* was actually a festering mess just below the surface. I've treated with a broad-spectrum tri-suphur and Pima and MelaFix. I am well aware, and prapared to lose my filter bacteria during this period, but I have ammonia quelling water conditioner (in an emergency) and a mature filter sponge set I can restablish (seed) the main tank with pretty quickly once all the meds are finished with. I figure if it isn't Flex but it's still a baterial thing then global cleansing is needed, not just the fish. I just hope what I have done so far is enough. Lowering the temperature just isn't possible at the moment because the ambient temperature is so high during the day. I did notice the heaters come on in the big tank tonight, so I pulled their power, but it still hasn't dropped below 27C. Daily gravel cleaning and water changes are the order of the day after the next three days, for approximately a fortnight and if there is another outbreak then I will consider shifting all remaining fish to a holding/Hospital tank, same for the plants, breaking the display tank down and steralizing everything in it, including the gravel, all filters and media replacement, and then restarting it with a fishless cycling and re populate it slowly after the cycle has completed. It's an opportunity to get it more right than currently, more than anything else. I have my eye on a 100L cube tank at LFS#1 which can hold the fish (substrateless to begin with) while I medicate them some more and while the main tank is being made safe. It may be a little crowded in the holding tank and some of them may feel a little exposed because the plants will not be in that tank as they need a seperate steralizing technique. I told you I was catching MTS ;) I agree that a diligent cleaning routine is now required and i'm about 70% there to preventing it happening again. I see it as more of an opportunity than a problem, truth be known. I feel for the fish that are dying, but I also have a perspective on that and I know it's not really my direct intentional doing - more ignorance. **** happens, and it's just really what you make of it more than it happening ;) Oz -- My Aquatic web Blog is at http://members.optusnet.com.au/ivan.smith |
"steve" wrote in message oups.com... Ozdude wrote: I am shocked at how filthy my gravel was and I can't begin to stress how important it is you get a really good gravel cleaner that suits your tank. I was using a cleaner suitable for a small tank and when I bought the new 22" one I'd say it sucked up 400% more junk on it's first use that the little one just wasn't able to pull up out of the substrate. If this is true, don't you think people who use soil or even mammal dung in their tank substrate would have massive water quality problems? A large portion of the planted tank keepers do no deep gravel vac'ing at all. steve Steve,; points taken. I never said I did a deep gravel vaccing. I haven't - perhaps 0.5cm is the deepest I've gone. There was a lot of waste on and just below the surface and it appears the bacteria took hold on it.. I don't advocate regular deep vaccing at all, never have, especially if you have a planted tank. Most of the advice sites I've read about substrates give warnings about soil mixtures, dung and peat under/in substrates and there are many beautiful planted tanks around using these types of substrates. It's almost definitely a ymmv area. I have lots of plants myself but I am of the opinion that if you have a good working substrate (aerobic and good CEC) then the less disturbed it is the better. I've also seen tanks with Val. planted in sand and every time I've seen the owners vacuum, they only do the surface mulm and detritus on the sand surface - they never dig the siphon in - my point is actually you need a vac with good suction so it can gently pick up most of the top surface mess, where the bacteria have the most chance of getting a hold on the fish, particularly bottom feeders. All the best. Oz -- My Aquatic web Blog is at http://members.optusnet.com.au/ivan.smith |
steve wrote: Ozdude wrote: I am shocked at how filthy my gravel was and I can't begin to stress how important it is you get a really good gravel cleaner that suits your tank. I was using a cleaner suitable for a small tank and when I bought the new 22" one I'd say it sucked up 400% more junk on it's first use that the little one just wasn't able to pull up out of the substrate. If this is true, don't you think people who use soil or even mammal dung in their tank substrate would have massive water quality problems? A large portion of the planted tank keepers do no deep gravel vac'ing at all. I always found that using sand prevented any build-up of waste. Also, with large gravel, fish food always makes its way in between the stones before it's eaten. All my aquariums have a top layer of sand. One has a bottom layer of Fluorite, a top layer of sand and then a light sprinkling of pea gravel. There's really no point in vacuuming unless there's an unsightly collection of fish poops. The drawback with sand is that the muck will build up in the filter, if it's powerful enough to draw it in. Nikki |
"Gill Passman" gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk wrote in message .. . So the English are now farming out their "more interesting" TV progs to you guys...hey it might be revenge for Neighbours - lol Gill A Place In Spain is currently airing on ABC1 - Oh dear they even whinge and carry on in Wales by the looks of it :) We've had A Place in Italy (disliked Paul immensly and I thought they were a pair of snobby losers to be honest), A Place in Greece and A Place in France, which was the best of them so far imo. I'm sure we'll get the whole series one after the other when ABC2 (digital) starts up on Monday. I know we're getting that fantastic NZ production "The Tribe" on ABC2 Digital :) Sorry for being OT but I couldn't help commenting on these programs. I am glad I'm an ex-pat brit - proud to be an Ozzy/Aussie ;) Oz -- My Aquatic web Blog is at http://members.optusnet.com.au/ivan.smith |
Ozdude wrote: I've also seen tanks with Val. planted in sand and every time I've seen the owners vacuum, they only do the surface mulm and detritus on the sand surface - they never dig the siphon in The most I can do is shake the gravel vac above the sand substrate. This causes turbulence which detaches the detritus matter from its resting place and then goes straight up the tube. If I dig in I'll decapitate some leaves. Nikki |
Elaine T wrote: BTW, chin up! You're beating yourself up unfairly. This can be a challenging hobby at time and you've been doing your absolute best. This, I'm in total agreement with. You are doing a fantastic job, Oz. Keep up the good work. Not only do you show ample ability to research and learn, you are also obviously a very caring guy. good luck, steve |
"Ozdude" wrote in message ... "Elaine T" wrote in message om... If you can get it, feed food soaked in dissolved oxytetracycline for 10 days. The advantage of medicated food is that it won't affect your filter the way PP, acriflavine, or dissolved antibiotics would. I agree with others that it doesn't sound like flexibacter, but oxytetracycline is broad-spectrum and good for many fish diseases. You're already cleaning the tank and keeping the fish in very clean water, which is the other key for managing a disease. BTW, chin up! You're beating yourself up unfairly. This can be a challenging hobby at time and you've been doing your absolute best. Thnaks for your encouraging words. I'm not really beating myself up as far as I can see. It's just one of the many aspects to this hobby. I was a little astounded that a substrate that *looked healthy* was actually a festering mess just below the surface. I've treated with a broad-spectrum tri-suphur and Pima and MelaFix. I am well aware, and prapared to lose my filter bacteria during this period, but I have ammonia quelling water conditioner (in an emergency) and a mature filter sponge set I can restablish (seed) the main tank with pretty quickly once all the meds are finished with. I figure if it isn't Flex but it's still a baterial thing then global cleansing is needed, not just the fish. I just hope what I have done so far is enough. Lowering the temperature just isn't possible at the moment because the ambient temperature is so high during the day. I did notice the heaters come on in the big tank tonight, so I pulled their power, but it still hasn't dropped below 27C. Daily gravel cleaning and water changes are the order of the day after the next three days, for approximately a fortnight and if there is another outbreak then I will consider shifting all remaining fish to a holding/Hospital tank, same for the plants, breaking the display tank down and steralizing everything in it, including the gravel, all filters and media replacement, and then restarting it with a fishless cycling and re populate it slowly after the cycle has completed. It's an opportunity to get it more right than currently, more than anything else. I have my eye on a 100L cube tank at LFS#1 which can hold the fish (substrateless to begin with) while I medicate them some more and while the main tank is being made safe. It may be a little crowded in the holding tank and some of them may feel a little exposed because the plants will not be in that tank as they need a seperate steralizing technique. I told you I was catching MTS ;) I agree that a diligent cleaning routine is now required and i'm about 70% there to preventing it happening again. I see it as more of an opportunity than a problem, truth be known. I feel for the fish that are dying, but I also have a perspective on that and I know it's not really my direct intentional doing - more ignorance. **** happens, and it's just really what you make of it more than it happening ;) Oz -- My Aquatic web Blog is at http://members.optusnet.com.au/ivan.smith All of this really emphasises that any changes we make need to be monitored for the effect that they have on the tank, fish and the balance in there.....and I've just had the lesson drummed into me (fortunately everyone in the tank looks happy and healthy at the moment).... Last weekend I took the Internal Pump out of my Community Tank and put it into my son's new tank in order to save a "crisis" - external has been running for over 2 months so I thought this would be OK but I promised myself I would keep close tabs on my tank but with one thing or another workwise didn't :-(. Tested the water today (day earlier than usual) prompted by what's being going on with Oz - and yep detected ammonia. It's somewhere between 0.6 and 1.2 mg/L - the highest I've ever had. pH is 7.5, nitrite 0 and nitrate 5 - kicking myself for not testing sooner. Anyway just done a 25% change and good vacuum of the gravel (not too bad at the front but pretty dirty at the back where the plants are). So it's continual monitoring and water changes for the next few days....and checking out the external pump. |
Ozdude wrote:
I read on a betta site last night that C.f. actually does have some highly resistant strains now, something like the super-bug in hospitals that no anti-biotic can beat. I was a nurse, hence my dislike of over use of antibiotics ;) There is always the option too of breaking the tank down - completely disinfecting and steralizing it and starting again, which in itself isn't such a bad thing. At least you get a second chance to get your aquascaping and things you got wrong first time around, right ;) An opiton here too right now. I treated my tank with tri-sulphur and the two XXXXfix fluids today and I had a bit of a brainstorm about mediacted food - instead of flakes, pellets or bloodworms - they got fed sinking wafers in a DIY feeder which prevents it from settling on the substrate (an inverted plastic lid with a sucker attached - half way down the water column which acts as a platform). As the food absorbs the water it takes up the meds and you have a sort of crude medicated feed. I figured it wouldn't hurt them because it's also getting into their blood via respiration through the gill membranes. Where did you get the tri-sulphur? I like you combination of medications. I get annoyed that I can't get antibiotics for fish until I start to think of what could happen. In the long run I don't suppose it will help Aust. b/c the countries that allow free use of antibiotics will bring in their resistant bugs here anyway. This is why our quarantine is so full on - Australia prides itself on it's freedom from o/s problems like this. BSE is a good example of this policy in action. Yeah, but the humans can still walk right through :( I'm a farmer now and get quite cranky when people say how they managed to get such and such through customs. I just heard it is forecast to get to 36 here tomorrow - it's autumn isn't it? It is indeed, but over the last decade at least I've noticed the seasons moving to slightly later into the year. There are also the El Ninio and La Nina effects we have influencing the weather here ;( SOI has fairly dropped so we are on our way to another El Nino probably. Oz Up in one of your other posts (which I cna't now find) I saw that you can't get PP. Did you try a chemist? When I was nursing we used to use it for bathing kids with infected scabies. I can now get into that website btw. Also, does anyone know if PP will stain any tank equipment? It sure makes a mess of a white bathtub. Oz, it is so good having you here as a fellow Aussie who understands the problems of the antibiotic lack. So much of the net where I've asked questions the replies have been to use this or that antibiotic and when you say you can't, it's like, tough titty or what planet do you come from. You have dragged much more info out of everyone here than I have been able to anywhere - GREAT WORK!!! miskairal |
"steve" wrote in message oups.com... This, I'm in total agreement with. You are doing a fantastic job, Oz. Keep up the good work. Not only do you show ample ability to research and learn, you are also obviously a very caring guy. Thanks so much for the kind words of support. I am a forearmed is forewarned/All Things..type of guy, but I didn't expect this to happen, but then again who does? ;) I checked the tank this morning and everything seems to be fine - first day of not waking to losses. The Serpae and Black Phantoms Tetras are doing their little vibrational mating dances all over the tank and are really getting in to the Blue Stricta Forrest ;) I am just going to keep my daily cleaning routine up now for 10 more days or so, and we'll see how that pans out. If that's what's required then I'll par it back to 2 X a week then back to weekly. Talk about scary! ;) Still it adds variety to life ;) good luck, Thanks and the same to you. Oz -- My Aquatic web Blog is at http://members.optusnet.com.au/ivan.smith |
"Gill Passman" gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk wrote in message .. . All of this really emphasises that any changes we make need to be monitored for the effect that they have on the tank, fish and the balance in there.....and I've just had the lesson drummed into me (fortunately everyone in the tank looks happy and healthy at the moment).... It brings me to a generalised method: "small changes, one at a time and monitor". ;) Last weekend I took the Internal Pump out of my Community Tank and put it into my son's new tank in order to save a "crisis" - external has been running for over 2 months so I thought this would be OK but I promised myself I would keep close tabs on my tank but with one thing or another workwise didn't :-(. The great thing about these "accidents" though is that we learn and move and on. It's only a fool that keep making the same mistakes;) Tested the water today (day earlier than usual) prompted by what's being going on with Oz - and yep detected ammonia. It's somewhere between 0.6 and 1.2 mg/L - the highest I've ever had. pH is 7.5, nitrite 0 and nitrate 5 - kicking myself for not testing sooner. Anyway just done a 25% change and good vacuum of the gravel (not too bad at the front but pretty dirty at the back where the plants are). So it's continual monitoring and water changes for the next few days....and checking out the external pump. I think it *is* possible to strike a balance between maintainence and enjoyment with tanks ;) You can't apparently have the blance the whole time but most of the time if you do the ground work first ;) Have a great day! Oz -- My Aquatic web Blog is at http://members.optusnet.com.au/ivan.smith |
"miskairal" wrote in message ... Ozdude wrote: I read on a betta site last night that C.f. actually does have some highly resistant strains now, something like the super-bug in hospitals that no anti-biotic can beat. I was a nurse, hence my dislike of over use of antibiotics ;) I avoid them for myself. Result? A pretty robust immune system - I don't get sick, or very, very rarely ;) I treated my tank with tri-sulphur and the two XXXXfix fluids today and I had a bit of a brainstorm about mediacted food - instead of flakes, pellets or bloodworms - they got fed sinking wafers in a DIY feeder which prevents it from settling on the substrate (an inverted plastic lid with a sucker attached - half way down the water column which acts as a platform). As the food absorbs the water it takes up the meds and you have a sort of crude medicated feed. I figured it wouldn't hurt them because it's also getting into their blood via respiration through the gill membranes. Where did you get the tri-sulphur? I like you combination of medications. From the LFS a while ago. They're Aqua Master brand Tri-Sulfa Tablets - yellow label. 1 tablet dissolved for each 40L of water. They contain Sulfadiazine 135.5mg, Sulfadimine 154.7mg and Slufamerazine 154.1mg as monosudium salts. The label states in part "As an aid in control...Mouth and Body Fungus (Culmnaris spp.)...." I try not to use them unless I have to because they knock out all bacteria and they are a pretty full-on thing to use by my estimation. Still, when I do use them they seem to work in just one doseage. SOI has fairly dropped so we are on our way to another El Nino probably. I just want the dams to fill up again ;) I'm used to El Ninio, but I'm over dry weather - some rain for a few days would be wonderful ;) Up in one of your other posts (which I cna't now find) I saw that you can't get PP. Did you try a chemist? When I was nursing we used to use it for bathing kids with infected scabies. I can now get into that website btw. I can get it - it's not a sourcing issue - it's my finance issue ;) Also, does anyone know if PP will stain any tank equipment? It sure makes a mess of a white bathtub. I believe it does. I've read many a aquatic medication page on the web where they talk about PP treatments and every one of them has mentioned that it will stain things orange or pink. Apparently H2O2 will oxydise/neutralise it, but then we start going down a chemical spiral road as far as I'm concerned - this is why I'm a bit hesitant to use it in the first place. I don't think I would treat a whole display tank with it. Oz, it is so good having you here as a fellow Aussie who understands the problems of the antibiotic lack. So much of the net where I've asked questions the replies have been to use this or that antibiotic and when you say you can't, it's like, tough titty or what planet do you come from. You have dragged much more info out of everyone here than I have been able to anywhere - GREAT WORK!!! Hey! that's what these discussion groups are for. It's why I love them and frequent them daily - the exchange of information, views and thoughts are far beyond days worth of Gooogling. I fugure, especially with aquaria, there is every chance that someone has had either the specific problem or something like it and can relate some experience on the matters. You also meet some really nice people, as people too ;) There are also the more experienced people around who are just wonderful, mature and compassionate. Truth be known, if it wasn't for the help and non-judgmental advice received over these last few months, I would have sold the fish plants and equipment and given the hobby up. There was a time where it just seemed too much bother for me to be bothered with, but I am now very into it, AND I also have better than average skills and knowledge which gives me a leg-up when I go for that job at the pet shop, in the aquatic section ;) :) Have a great day! and stay cool (fish as well). Oz -- My Aquatic web Blog is at http://members.optusnet.com.au/ivan.smith |
Ozdude wrote:
"miskairal" wrote in message ... Ozdude wrote: I read on a betta site last night that C.f. actually does have some highly resistant strains now, something like the super-bug in hospitals that no anti-biotic can beat. I was a nurse, hence my dislike of over use of antibiotics ;) I avoid them for myself. Result? A pretty robust immune system - I don't get sick, or very, very rarely ;) Me too. My 21 year old son recently thanked a doctor for being the first not to try and fob him off with antibiotics I treated my tank with tri-sulphur and the two XXXXfix fluids today and I had a bit of a brainstorm about mediacted food - instead of flakes, pellets or bloodworms - they got fed sinking wafers in a DIY feeder which prevents it from settling on the substrate (an inverted plastic lid with a sucker attached - half way down the water column which acts as a platform). As the food absorbs the water it takes up the meds and you have a sort of crude medicated feed. I figured it wouldn't hurt them because it's also getting into their blood via respiration through the gill membranes. Where did you get the tri-sulphur? I like you combination of medications. From the LFS a while ago. They're Aqua Master brand Tri-Sulfa Tablets - yellow label. 1 tablet dissolved for each 40L of water. They contain Sulfadiazine 135.5mg, Sulfadimine 154.7mg and Slufamerazine 154.1mg as monosudium salts. The label states in part "As an aid in control...Mouth and Body Fungus (Culmnaris spp.)...." I try not to use them unless I have to because they knock out all bacteria and they are a pretty full-on thing to use by my estimation. Still, when I do use them they seem to work in just one doseage. Thanks! I will try to get the lfs in my tiny town to get some in. I might lose the good bacteria but it's better than losing the fish and I have another tank I can steal from :) SOI has fairly dropped so we are on our way to another El Nino probably. I just want the dams to fill up again ;) I'm used to El Ninio, but I'm over dry weather - some rain for a few days would be wonderful ;) You ought to see the dust here. I actually bought an eye bath thingy to use b/c our eyes are so gritted up :( Up in one of your other posts (which I cna't now find) I saw that you can't get PP. Did you try a chemist? When I was nursing we used to use it for bathing kids with infected scabies. I can now get into that website btw. I can get it - it's not a sourcing issue - it's my finance issue ;) I just assumed it would be cheap. I might end up thinking twice about it myself when I find out a price. Also, does anyone know if PP will stain any tank equipment? It sure makes a mess of a white bathtub. I believe it does. I've read many a aquatic medication page on the web where they talk about PP treatments and every one of them has mentioned that it will stain things orange or pink. Apparently H2O2 will oxydise/neutralise it, but then we start going down a chemical spiral road as far as I'm concerned - this is why I'm a bit hesitant to use it in the first place. I don't think I would treat a whole display tank with it. Oz, it is so good having you here as a fellow Aussie who understands the problems of the antibiotic lack. So much of the net where I've asked questions the replies have been to use this or that antibiotic and when you say you can't, it's like, tough titty or what planet do you come from. You have dragged much more info out of everyone here than I have been able to anywhere - GREAT WORK!!! Hey! that's what these discussion groups are for. It's why I love them and frequent them daily - the exchange of information, views and thoughts are far beyond days worth of Gooogling. I fugure, especially with aquaria, there is every chance that someone has had either the specific problem or something like it and can relate some experience on the matters. You also meet some really nice people, as people too ;) There are also the more experienced people around who are just wonderful, mature and compassionate. Truth be known, if it wasn't for the help and non-judgmental advice received over these last few months, I would have sold the fish plants and equipment and given the hobby up. There was a time where it just seemed too much bother for me to be bothered with, but I am now very into it, AND I also have better than average skills and knowledge which gives me a leg-up when I go for that job at the pet shop, in the aquatic section ;) :) Have a great day! and stay cool (fish as well). It's 11.30am and already up to 30 :) Air con might be the solution to owning tropical fish in a tropical climate eh? Cheers miskairal |
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