Yes, charcoal is technically a chemical filter. Not everyone uses charcoal
either.
A biological filter is a necessity for an aquarium. There are many
different types (bio-wheels, filter pad, canister, undergravel, etc.) The
principle point of a biofilter is to use nitro-bacteria to convert the toxic
compounds of ammonia and nitrite to the non-toxic nitrate.

Check out information on the Nitrogen cycle for aquariums or information
about "cycling" you tank.

Justin

"robbins876" wrote in message
oups.com...
I have a charcoal filter that that came with my 10 gallon tank
starter-kit. I've been reading up on biological filtration. Am I
correct in the fact that charcoal filters are not the same as bio
filters? Since I don't have a bio filter, how imperative is it that I
get one? IS charcoal just a chemical filter?

Thanks,
Rob

Filtration Question
 

I have a charcoal filter that that came with my 10 gallon tank
starter-kit. I've been reading up on biological filtration. Am I
correct in the fact that charcoal filters are not the same as bio
filters? Since I don't have a bio filter, how imperative is it that I
get one? IS charcoal just a chemical filter?

Thanks,
Rob

"robbins876" wrote in message
oups.com...
I have a charcoal filter that that came with my 10 gallon tank
starter-kit. I've been reading up on biological filtration. Am I
correct in the fact that charcoal filters are not the same as bio
filters?

Yes. Charcoal is chemical filtration, partly a mechanical filter as well,
dependent on the size of the charcoal.

Since I don't have a bio filter, how imperative is it that I
get one? IS charcoal just a chemical filter?

Charcoal is used for removing chemical toxins in the water. It will not act
as a biological filter. What you you should aim for to have biological
filtration, which is where are all of your good bacteria will live, is
remove the carbon and replace it with plain old, cheap filter floss or
sponge. Then your tank will have to go through an establishing cycle, which
could be stressful for some or all or your current fish, so you need to read
up on that before you venture into it.

Try these links for some infomative information:

http://www.2cah.com/netmax/basics/water/water.shtml
http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/doc...t/nitcyc.shtml

They should give you some ideas about what and how to change the filter's
media over and the pitfalls of not doing it patiently or properly.

Is this filter air driven by any chance? One of those little green cartridge
types with carbon at the top and foam in the bottom half? If so, I'd remove
it and replace it with a small sponge filter.

Oz

--
My Aquatic web Blog is at http://members.optusnet.com.au/ivan.smith

Well two people have told you that yes charcoal is a chemical filter
and no it isn't a bio filter. What they haven't told you is that yes it
is a bio filter (indirectly). Just like everything else in your tank.
Nitrifying bacteria are going to grow everywhere whether you ask them
to or not, and as it happens carbon tends to have a large surface area
and be prime spawning grounds for that bacteria.

You don't need to get another filter, the one you have will be fine as
long as you don't overstock your tank. In fact I use cheap hang on the
tank carbon filters almost exclusively in my planted tanks. I put the
carbon in the floss bag at the startup of the tank to help the tank get
through that rocky cycling period and then I just never change the
charcoal. Bacteria grow in the filter and the charcoal gets used up and
eventually leaches stuff back into the aquarium but by then my plants
are established and ready to eat it up.

Even if you don't intend to have a planted tank this filter will
probably be completely adequate for a ten gallon tank. If you want to
be sure then buy a test kit for ammonia and nitrates and keep an eye on
the two of them. If you don't like what you see then add another filter
- but I seriously doubt it will make any difference. Even with no
filtration there is usually enough bacteria growing in the substrate of
a ten gallon tank to completely nitrify any ammonia and as long as your
ammonia reading is zero adding extra biological filters isn't going to
accomplish anything.


-Daniel

Can i also point out that this person HAS overstocked his tank
" just got my first 10 gallon aquarium last Wednesday (5 days ago). I
let the water set-up for 24 hours before putting my two fantail
goldfish and one black moor in the tank"

as noted by his previous post?
"dfreas" wrote in message
ps.com...
Well two people have told you that yes charcoal is a chemical filter
and no it isn't a bio filter. What they haven't told you is that yes it
is a bio filter (indirectly). Just like everything else in your tank.
Nitrifying bacteria are going to grow everywhere whether you ask them
to or not, and as it happens carbon tends to have a large surface area
and be prime spawning grounds for that bacteria.

You don't need to get another filter, the one you have will be fine as
long as you don't overstock your tank. In fact I use cheap hang on the
tank carbon filters almost exclusively in my planted tanks. I put the
carbon in the floss bag at the startup of the tank to help the tank get
through that rocky cycling period and then I just never change the
charcoal. Bacteria grow in the filter and the charcoal gets used up and
eventually leaches stuff back into the aquarium but by then my plants
are established and ready to eat it up.

Even if you don't intend to have a planted tank this filter will
probably be completely adequate for a ten gallon tank. If you want to
be sure then buy a test kit for ammonia and nitrates and keep an eye on
the two of them. If you don't like what you see then add another filter
- but I seriously doubt it will make any difference. Even with no
filtration there is usually enough bacteria growing in the substrate of
a ten gallon tank to completely nitrify any ammonia and as long as your
ammonia reading is zero adding extra biological filters isn't going to
accomplish anything.


-Daniel

On 21 Mar 2005 14:26:03 -0800, "robbins876"
wrote:

I have a charcoal filter that that came with my 10 gallon tank
starter-kit. I've been reading up on biological filtration. Am I
correct in the fact that charcoal filters are not the same as bio
filters? Since I don't have a bio filter, how imperative is it that I
get one? IS charcoal just a chemical filter?

Thanks,
Rob

Hi Rob,

I can't imagine what you are going to do with all the differing
opinions you are getting. The very fact that there are so many ideas
led me to remove the charcoal from my 5 tanks about 6 months ago. I
had noticed that I could never clean the filter media well enough to
get good flow through for the water. I experimented by removing the
charcoal and then washing the bags and was pleased to find it was the
charcoal that was holding the flow and wouldn't clean out.

My 75 gallon tank has two Penguin 330s, thus 4 bio wheels. I got
tired of the things not rotating. I learned all the things to get
them to rotate again, but was having to repeat the procedures more
than I wanted. Then I realized that my other 4 tanks did not have bio
wheels, but were keeping the water clean, so I removed the wheels
several months ago.

In my own opinion only, I think the filter mainly holds the waste
material until it solids break down to a size that can pass through
the media back into the tank. Some bacteria action probably takes
place why being held, but I believe the primary bacteria activity
takes place in the tank.

I have live plants in all my tanks, so I cannot speak for conditions
without live plants. I do regularly change 20% of the water twice
weekly.

I like to keep things as simple as possible and have found no need to
make any chemical adjustments to the tap water. I find my simple
routine is easier to do, thus fewer excuses to not do the water
changes. I love excuses. I don't clean the filter media until most
of the water is flowing around the media.

dick

"anemone" wrote in message ...
Can i also point out that this person HAS overstocked his tank
" just got my first 10 gallon aquarium last Wednesday (5 days ago). I
let the water set-up for 24 hours before putting my two fantail
goldfish and one black moor in the tank"

as noted by his previous post?

I'd say that he has to be extra diligent about the chemical conditions in his tank, as the smaller volume leaves him less time to
react to an adverse event that could occur (e.g. Ammonia spike during cycling, etc.)

If he can GUARANTEE clean, fresh water in his 10 gallon tank with 3 goldfish (e.g. via frequent partial water changes), what other
problem do you see in his current setup?

The Fish Stores have a higher goldfish density than that in their tanks. But they have a constant supply of clean/fresh water.

yeah...they do have a constant supply of fresh water.....and they don't keep
the same goldfish for years either....
"Gfishery" wrote in message
...

"anemone" wrote in message
...
Can i also point out that this person HAS overstocked his tank
" just got my first 10 gallon aquarium last Wednesday (5 days ago). I
let the water set-up for 24 hours before putting my two fantail
goldfish and one black moor in the tank"

as noted by his previous post?

I'd say that he has to be extra diligent about the chemical conditions in
his tank, as the smaller volume leaves him less time to
react to an adverse event that could occur (e.g. Ammonia spike during
cycling, etc.)

If he can GUARANTEE clean, fresh water in his 10 gallon tank with 3
goldfish (e.g. via frequent partial water changes), what other
problem do you see in his current setup?

The Fish Stores have a higher goldfish density than that in their tanks.
But they have a constant supply of clean/fresh water.

Another problem with the setup is that he will stunt the fishs' growth.
Goldfish have the potential to grow 10+ inches.....If their growth is
stunted, internal organs can get deformed, such as the swim bladder, which
means unhappy fish an unecessary hassle later on.....
"Gfishery" wrote in message
...

"anemone" wrote in message
...
Can i also point out that this person HAS overstocked his tank
" just got my first 10 gallon aquarium last Wednesday (5 days ago). I
let the water set-up for 24 hours before putting my two fantail
goldfish and one black moor in the tank"

as noted by his previous post?

I'd say that he has to be extra diligent about the chemical conditions in
his tank, as the smaller volume leaves him less time to
react to an adverse event that could occur (e.g. Ammonia spike during
cycling, etc.)

If he can GUARANTEE clean, fresh water in his 10 gallon tank with 3
goldfish (e.g. via frequent partial water changes), what other
problem do you see in his current setup?

The Fish Stores have a higher goldfish density than that in their tanks.
But they have a constant supply of clean/fresh water.

Right. Whatever. My first aquarium was a ten gallon tank from walmart
that I stuck a lionhead goldfish, two black moors, and a pl*co in. I
never had any problems and I checked the water quality practically
daily. 3 goldfish does not make this tank overstocked. 6 months from
now it may be overstocked but I'd be willing to bet that after six
months he'll have either discovered he doesn't like this hobby and have
gotten rid of his fish or decide he loves the hobby and buy another
tank.

It seems like practically everyone around here is always jumping on
every new person that wanders in about how overstocked their new tank
is. Overstocked is an extremely relative term. I have a 20 gallon
aquarium with about 35 inches worth of fish in it plus clams, snails
and shrimp - it always has less than 10ppm nitrates. Is it overstocked?
No.

The only way to tell if an aquarium is overstocked is to watch the fish
and see if they are comfortable and have enough swimming room and then
test the water to make sure it's healthy. If you can't do that (which
no one here can) then you can't say if the tank is overstocked or not.
The only time we should ever accuse someone of having an overstocked
tank is when they come in here saying "I have 50 fish in my new ten
gallon tank and they keep dying...whats wrong!?!?"

-Daniel

dfreas wrote:

Right. Whatever. My first aquarium was a ten gallon tank from walmart
that I stuck a lionhead goldfish, two black moors, and a pl*co in. I
never had any problems and I checked the water quality practically
daily. 3 goldfish does not make this tank overstocked. 6 months from
now it may be overstocked but I'd be willing to bet that after six
months he'll have either discovered he doesn't like this hobby and have
gotten rid of his fish or decide he loves the hobby and buy another
tank.

It seems like practically everyone around here is always jumping on
every new person that wanders in about how overstocked their new tank
is. Overstocked is an extremely relative term. I have a 20 gallon
aquarium with about 35 inches worth of fish in it plus clams, snails
and shrimp - it always has less than 10ppm nitrates. Is it overstocked?
No.

The only way to tell if an aquarium is overstocked is to watch the fish
and see if they are comfortable and have enough swimming room and then
test the water to make sure it's healthy. If you can't do that (which
no one here can) then you can't say if the tank is overstocked or not.
The only time we should ever accuse someone of having an overstocked
tank is when they come in here saying "I have 50 fish in my new ten
gallon tank and they keep dying...whats wrong!?!?"

-Daniel

How about levels of hormones that are not tested - this can determine
if a fish becomes stunted.

While I am as yet unconvinced this is actually even a valid concern I
would point out that hormones almost certainly build up slower than
nitrates if in fact they do build up. Therefore if your tank
maintenance schedule is keeping nitrates down it is almost certainly
also keeping hormones down.

-Daniel

"anemone" wrote in message
...
Another problem with the setup is that he will stunt the fishs' growth.

A 10-gallon tank with GUARANTEED clean,fresh water can stunt the fish's
growth?
If the fish had no place to swim properly, I can see a problem with the
10-gallon volume.

While I agree about the general 10-gallon per goldfish "rule", the only real
evidence I have been able to find is that the lower the water volume per
goldfish, the less time he has to react to a brewing chemical problem in the
tank that could harm the fish.

I can also see why a more toxic water environment could stunt a fish's
growth.
But one could have a more toxic water environment in a 50 gallon tank than
in a 10 gallon tank if they don't deal with the problem.
And it is easier to dilute a given concentration of toxins in a 10-gallon
tank than it is to dilute the same concentration in a 50-gallon tank (i.e.
less clean, fresh water required for the 10-gallon tank).

I wish someone would manufacture a device that could constantly monitor Ph,
Nitrites and Nitrates, just like Seachem has a device (Ammonia Alert) that
constantly monitors free Ammonia in the tank.

The only time I can see a 30 gallon or larger tank be truly safer for the 3
goldfish in question is if the larger tank could somehow establish a
self-contained ecosystem that the 10-gallon tank was not capable of.

I disagree with the "a 10g with more than i goldfish is not overstocked"
theory sorry...

....A puppy could "look" comfortable in a cage...but its not really
comfortable...Nor is it HUMANE

Come on...more than 1 goldfish IS way too much for a 10g....They produce soo
much ammonia, its incredible... and may i add that if large frequent water
changes are a way to keep the levels down, you are adding to the stress of
the fish aswell as making life harder for yourself by doing the extra
work...

IT IS OVERSTOCKED....but wait...let me finish.....its isnt as bad as some
peoples tanks...

You can't tell if a fish is comfortable ....What do they do....pull out
their recliners, put their pectoral fins behind their heads and sip on
champagne?...Yeah right...you can find fish that looks fine and happy fine
one minute, and the next minute they go belly up....

In overstocking cases, the fishs' outsides may stop growing....but what
about the insides? They don't stop growing....this is where the trouble
starts.
The probability of fish getting diseases and sickness in an overstocked tank
is higher than a safely stocked tank.

Goldfish (such as comets, shubunkins, commons) can grow to at least 10
inches in a matter of 1 year....try fitting one of them in a 10G tank!
Fancies also need more room as they aren't fast swimmers and need room for
error correction.

If a fish fears something, they put out a "fear scent" throught the
tank....in an overstocked tank, this fear scent is concentrated causing them
to dart all over the place and finally getting so stressed that it can cause
them respiration problems.

A big point for the at least 10G per gf rule....disease and polution
prevention...

Like us, gf like the space....could you live in a bus with 3 other people
all day everyday,getting someone to give you food twice a day, having to go
to the toilet there and not be able to get out?? Sounds uncomfortable doesnt
it.......It is uncomfortable for us...so why out your pets through that....

Ive been keeping goldfish and koi in my pond for nearly 15 years, have
several tanks setup up for about 5 years and have worked in Aquaculture for
over 5 years....So please spare me and don't tell me that i don't know what
im talking about......

"dfreas" wrote in message
ups.com...
While I am as yet unconvinced this is actually even a valid concern I
would point out that hormones almost certainly build up slower than
nitrates if in fact they do build up. Therefore if your tank
maintenance schedule is keeping nitrates down it is almost certainly
also keeping hormones down.

-Daniel

Ok, you disagree - I still think you're wrong. It is easy to tell if a
fish is happy - watch its behavior. Unhappy fish do not exhibit natural
behavior patterns. If you have ever had a "fish that looks fine and
happy fine...go belly up" then you don't pay enough attention to your
fish.

I almost always keep my tanks far above the normally accepted stocking
limits yet I am quite sure they are very happy. Why? Because I watch
them breed, I see their colors get brighter as they stay in my tank
longer, I watch them school and interact the way healthy fish do and I
watch them grow quite quickly. I get top dollar from my LFS for any
fish I wish to sell him because my fish look better than the fish from
any other source he has. That doesn't happen unless the fish are "fine
and happy fine"

Most of what you say sounds like something from a petsmart FAQ. Despite
the dogmatic warnings we have all heard about overstocked tanks the
facts are the warnings are simply not true. They are good guidelines
for beginners who may not want to put a lot of time into their tanks
but they don't hold water if you actually test them.

I would be glad to share any information you would like to have about
my "overstocked" aquariums. I assure you they are running far above
their recommended capacity of fish and are completely "happy fine."

-Daniel

anemone wrote:
Come on...more than 1 goldfish IS way too much for a 10g....They
produce soo
much ammonia, its incredible... and may i add that if large frequent
water
changes are a way to keep the levels down, you are adding to the
stress of
the fish aswell as making life harder for yourself by doing the extra

work...

I know you mean well, but when is there a point in time where a
goldfish in a glass tank has enough volume/space?
Wouldn't 20gallons/goldfish be better than 10g/goldfish? 50g/goldfish?
100g/goldfish?

Could it be possible that the water in a particular 10g (or smaller)
tank is better for a goldfish than the water in some other 40g tank? Or
have we come to the conclusion that the water in a 10g tank is ALWAYS
worse (i.e. more toxic) than the water in any 40g tank, for more than 1
goldfish?
And have we come to a conclusion that providing more than 10g per
goldfish WILL guarantee a healthy fish?

I have 3 goldfish in a 10g tank, and my wife won't let me buy a bigger
tank right now.
The 3rd goldfish she insisted on adding (during tank cycling days with
already 2 goldfish in the tank!) had what looked like ammonia burns
when we got it from the chain fish store (we didn't know anything about
ammonia burns then, and thought it was nice fin-coloring!), but it
actually recovered in my 10g tank!
Ammonia Alert(tm) indicated grey during cycling, and is currently
yellow (safe).
I did 1g/day water changes.
Now I do 2gallons every 2 or 3 days.
So where is all that Ammonia that the 3 goldfish (in my 10g tank) is
excreting?

When the fish get bigger, I foresee getting a bigger tank.
In retrospect, I should have bought the larger tank at the beginning,
but I (and I am NOT a fish expert) feel that unless fish have no space
to swim properly (a relative term), the quality of the water in the
tank is the most important consideration.
Yes, one has to work a little more often to ensure that the water in a
10g tank is acceptable for 3 goldfish.

My wife had raised 6 goldfish for 8 years in what looked like a 40
gallon tank.
She did not use tap water de-chlorinators.
she did not know that the power filter had a cartridge that could be
changed.
But she did 80% (or more) water changes almost weekly, and I believe
that is what kept the fish alive for 8 years. I'm not sure if I would
have done the same thing, but that system worked for 8 (possibly more)
years.
(One of her tenants accidentally washed the tank with detergent in her
absence, and that killed all 6 goldfish)


You can't tell if a fish is comfortable

If one can't tell if goldfish are uncomfortable by watching them, how
does one tell that they are comfortable in any given tank?
To me, a change in their normal behavior/breathing/swimming pattern
would indicate a possible problem.

If the 6 goldfish survived 8 years in a 40 gallon glass tank, my wife
was definitely doing something right.
Sure, they may have been happier in a tank twice that size.
And they may have been even happier not being in any glasss tank at
all.

The also would have had the potential to live twice as long. 8 years isn't
that much for a goldfish dude.
"Gfishery" wrote in message
oups.com...

anemone wrote:
Come on...more than 1 goldfish IS way too much for a 10g....They
produce soo
much ammonia, its incredible... and may i add that if large frequent
water
changes are a way to keep the levels down, you are adding to the
stress of
the fish aswell as making life harder for yourself by doing the extra

work...

I know you mean well, but when is there a point in time where a
goldfish in a glass tank has enough volume/space?
Wouldn't 20gallons/goldfish be better than 10g/goldfish? 50g/goldfish?
100g/goldfish?

Could it be possible that the water in a particular 10g (or smaller)
tank is better for a goldfish than the water in some other 40g tank? Or
have we come to the conclusion that the water in a 10g tank is ALWAYS
worse (i.e. more toxic) than the water in any 40g tank, for more than 1
goldfish?
And have we come to a conclusion that providing more than 10g per
goldfish WILL guarantee a healthy fish?

I have 3 goldfish in a 10g tank, and my wife won't let me buy a bigger
tank right now.
The 3rd goldfish she insisted on adding (during tank cycling days with
already 2 goldfish in the tank!) had what looked like ammonia burns
when we got it from the chain fish store (we didn't know anything about
ammonia burns then, and thought it was nice fin-coloring!), but it
actually recovered in my 10g tank!
Ammonia Alert(tm) indicated grey during cycling, and is currently
yellow (safe).
I did 1g/day water changes.
Now I do 2gallons every 2 or 3 days.
So where is all that Ammonia that the 3 goldfish (in my 10g tank) is
excreting?

When the fish get bigger, I foresee getting a bigger tank.
In retrospect, I should have bought the larger tank at the beginning,
but I (and I am NOT a fish expert) feel that unless fish have no space
to swim properly (a relative term), the quality of the water in the
tank is the most important consideration.
Yes, one has to work a little more often to ensure that the water in a
10g tank is acceptable for 3 goldfish.

My wife had raised 6 goldfish for 8 years in what looked like a 40
gallon tank.
She did not use tap water de-chlorinators.
she did not know that the power filter had a cartridge that could be
changed.
But she did 80% (or more) water changes almost weekly, and I believe
that is what kept the fish alive for 8 years. I'm not sure if I would
have done the same thing, but that system worked for 8 (possibly more)
years.
(One of her tenants accidentally washed the tank with detergent in her
absence, and that killed all 6 goldfish)


You can't tell if a fish is comfortable

If one can't tell if goldfish are uncomfortable by watching them, how
does one tell that they are comfortable in any given tank?
To me, a change in their normal behavior/breathing/swimming pattern
would indicate a possible problem.

If the 6 goldfish survived 8 years in a 40 gallon glass tank, my wife
was definitely doing something right.
Sure, they may have been happier in a tank twice that size.
And they may have been even happier not being in any glasss tank at
all.

blue sky wrote:
The also would have had the potential to live twice as long. 8 years
isn't
that much for a goldfish dude.

They did not die "normally" after 8 years.
Someone washed the tank with detergent in her absence, and that killed
all 6 goldfish the next day.

Has anyone here had the same goldfish for 15 years?

"Gfishery" wrote in message
oups.com...

blue sky wrote:
The also would have had the potential to live twice as long. 8 years
isn't
that much for a goldfish dude.

They did not die "normally" after 8 years.
Someone washed the tank with detergent in her absence, and that killed
all 6 goldfish the next day.

Has anyone here had the same goldfish for 15 years?

Not yet, but I expect to. And he's my first, too.

A