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PH in new tank
On thrid week of patiently waiting while my live rock, live sand, salt
water and bacteria cycle. Ph is still 7.4-7.8 I was under the assumption that I should be using distilled water to top off evaporated tank. Then someone told me distilled had a ph of 5. Any suggestions? |
"smartbomb" wrote in message oups.com...
Ph is still 7.4-7.8 I was under the assumption that I should be using distilled water to top off evaporated tank. Then someone told me distilled had a ph of 5. pH of distilled water is not important in this case. Low pH of distilled water is caused by small amount of CO2 dissolved in it. This effect is normal, due to the surface air access. The same amount of CO2 will dissolve in your tank water, but it will not cause pH drop due to buffers existing in the water. Distilled water is lacking buffers so CO2 influences pH strongly. Don't know what salt mix you use and how do you measure pH but maybe you need more reef buffers in your water... Check your alkalinity levels. Also read this very informative article: http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issu...e2002/chem.htm Be carefull in playing with pH level - even relatively low pH level like yours is better than large pH variations you might cause... The bottom line is: adding distilled water will NOT drop your pH level in the tank. Adding distilled (or purified in other ways, i.e. RO/DI) water is the only way of properly replace evaporated water and adjust salnity level to the normal level. Feel free to ask if you need to know more. |
"Pszemol" wrote in message ... "smartbomb" wrote in message oups.com... Ph is still 7.4-7.8 I was under the assumption that I should be using distilled water to top off evaporated tank. Then someone told me distilled had a ph of 5. pH of distilled water is not important in this case. Low pH of distilled water is caused by small amount of CO2 dissolved in it. This effect is normal, due to the surface air access. The same amount of CO2 will dissolve in your tank water, but it will not cause pH drop due to buffers existing in the water. Distilled water is lacking buffers so CO2 influences pH strongly. Don't know what salt mix you use and how do you measure pH but maybe you need more reef buffers in your water... Check your alkalinity levels. Also read this very informative article: http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issu...e2002/chem.htm Be carefull in playing with pH level - even relatively low pH level like yours is better than large pH variations you might cause... The bottom line is: adding distilled water will NOT drop your pH level in the tank. Adding distilled (or purified in other ways, i.e. RO/DI) water is the only way of properly replace evaporated water and adjust salnity level to the normal level. Feel free to ask if you need to know more. Hmmm. See my earlier post called "RO and pH issues. |
"George" wrote in message news:4OH8e.24934$8Z6.409@attbi_s21...
Hmmm. See my earlier post called "RO and pH issues. You do NOT need to add buffers to the top off RO water. You do NOT need to add Calcium additives either. Try not to reinvent the wheel - read more chemistry articles and do this stuff the right way. If 100% of marine tank keepers do not play with top-off water, also, if the Nature just drops rain water without any added buffering to the ocean - you do not need to process ro water either... Acid pH level of RO water is not important! If you leave it in the bucket for several hours any excess of CO2 will escape the water (and other gases will equalize as well). After several hours in the bucket the water will have NORMAL level of CO2 and other gases (Nitrogen, Oxygen) dissolved in it. So in terms of gases, what RO membrane stops or leaves behind there is not important! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partial_pressure If your tank water is unable to support high calcium levels and the level is 280mg/l check the water parameters to find out the reason why it is this way. There are several good articles about keeping right calcium levels, check out the website I gave the link to before... Adding calcium to the ro water and then pouring this water to the tank water might cause calcium precipitation and covering everything with white snow... If your tank water does not support high calcium levels you will not force the water to high levels this way... sorry. Do not experiment unless you are sure what you are doing (i.e. have good background of basic chemistry courses). Change your focus from your RO - your top off water or its pH is NOT the problem here. Try to focus on your tank water parameters instead. |
"Pszemol" wrote in message ... "George" wrote in message news:4OH8e.24934$8Z6.409@attbi_s21... Hmmm. See my earlier post called "RO and pH issues. You do NOT need to add buffers to the top off RO water. You do NOT need to add Calcium additives either. Try not to reinvent the wheel - read more chemistry articles and do this stuff the right way. I have two years of college chemistry, have a masters in Geology, and have raised fish for most of my 46 years. What more chemistry do you think I need in order to understand that if you add unbuffered water with a pH of 5.0, you are going to dilute the buffers in the existing salt water, and will affect the pH, especially since that make up water has a lot of CO2 in it with a pH of 5.0? If 100% of marine tank keepers do not play with top-off water, also, if the Nature just drops rain water without any added buffering to the ocean The oceans are miles deep, so overall rainwater has little affect. However, the topmost layer at the surface is in fact affected by rainwater. - you do not need to process ro water either... Acid pH level of RO water is not important! If that is the case, you won't mind if I pour a bottle of HCL into your aquarium, since pH is not important to you. If you leave it in the bucket for several hours any excess of CO2 will escape the water (and other gases will equalize as well). This is incorrect. The RO water I tested for pH was in an unsealed five gallon plastic container, and had been made at least four days before I tested it. The pH was 5.0, indicating high concentrations of CO2 in the water. Once I add buffers and aerated the water, the pH rose to 7.5. After several hours in the bucket the water will have NORMAL level of CO2 and other gases (Nitrogen, Oxygen) dissolved in it. Wrong, wrong, wrong. Make up a gallon of RO water, test the pH, then leave the water in an unsealed plastic container for four days, and then test the pH again. Then come back and tell me that the pH has stabilized to an acceptable reading (5.0, in my case, is not acceptable, and since the pH was at 5.0 after four days, I can imagine what the pH level was at one day. I plan to find out tonight). So in terms of gases, what RO membrane stops or leaves behind there is not important! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partial_pressure See above. If your tank water is unable to support high calcium levels and the level is 280mg/l check the water parameters to find out the reason why it is this way. I'm sure it is able to support higher calcium levels. The thing is that all marine reef tanks use up calcium so it has to be added. I hadn't added any calcium since my last partial water change (about a month). That is why the calcium levels were low. I had been adding buffer periodically, however, which is why I was suprised that my pH was only 7.5. I have a wave maker which causes a lot of evaporation, so I have to add makeup water frequently. This is why I am convinced that the unbuffered RO water was the culprit. There are several good articles about keeping right calcium levels, check out the website I gave the link to before... Adding calcium to the ro water and then pouring this water to the tank water might cause calcium precipitation and covering everything with white snow... I only add enough clacium to the RO water to make it the same as my tap water, which is 60 mg/L, not enough to cause precipitation since even at that level, adding it to the tank water (which has a concentration of 280 mg/L) is still diluting the tank water. After a couple of days, I will check the calcium concentration in the tank water to see if addition calcium is needed. If your tank water does not support high calcium levels you will not force the water to high levels this way... sorry. Why would my tank water not support high calcium levels? The only reason for the levels to drop in the first place is because the animals and macroalgae in the tanks are using it. That is why you have to add calcium periodically to reef tanks. I have 4 inches of aragonite sea sand in the tank and three inches of it in the refugium, so the pH isn't going to fall below about 7.5. Do not experiment unless you are sure what you are doing (i.e. have good background of basic chemistry courses). See above. Ok Einstein, what is the vapor pressure of CO2? Note. I've had reef tanks for 14 years (but have only used RO for the last two years), have a maroon clown fish that is also 14 years old, have a 1,200 gallon garden pond, and have raised tropical fish since I was 11 years old. I am also a geologist (more specifically, a hydrogeologist). Change your focus from your RO - your top off water or its pH is NOT the problem here. Try to focus on your tank water parameters instead. The other parameters are fine Temp = 78 F, Nitrate = 0, Nitrite = O, Ammonia = 0, hydrometer reading 1.023. The problem is NOT the tank water. The problem IS the make up water. I never had this problem when using an ion resin filter (DI). It was only after I started using the RO filter that the problem occurred. Note: I took the RO water that had a pH reading of 5.0 and added buffers and calcium to it, to bring it up to a pH of 8.0 and a calcium concentration of 60 mg/L. I did this last night. Today, I added this water (three gallons) slowly to the tank. The tank water is now at 8.0 and the calcium reading is at 360, which is just below the normal level for a tank after you've added fresh seawater to it. The pH is still low, so I will change it over the course of the next few days. |
"George" wrote in message news:xCX8e.639$c24.236@attbi_s72...
I have two years of college chemistry, have a masters in Geology, and have raised fish for most of my 46 years. What more chemistry do you think I need in order to understand that if you add unbuffered water with a pH of 5.0, you are going to dilute the buffers in the existing salt water, and will affect the pH, especially since that make up water has a lot of CO2 in it with a pH of 5.0? I think it is going too far... Look, I do not want to make an enemy out of you, but I still think you have it wrong. I am trying to explain what I know, but you do not make it easy... I would fail as a teacher - I am happy I am not one of them... ;-) Mr. Boomer! Where are you!??! You had a gift of explaining chemistry to everybody... Let me point some simple facts again, you figure out what you are missing: - it does NOT take a lot of CO2 to lower pH of purified water with no buffers, in fact, it takes VERY LITTLE CO2 to change pH, due to the lack of buffers. - it does not *dilute* buffers, it rather brings them BACK to the level before water evaporated leaving higher concentration of buffers there. When water evaporates it does not take with it your buffers, the same is true when opposite process happens: you do not "need" to add buffers to replace evaporated water (but of course you are free to do so...) - animals building their tissues (and their metabolic products) use up the buffers, not processes of evaporation/toping off with purified water. So the problem is NOT in your top-off purified water - that is for sure... If you had alk level 10, then you let 10 gallons of water to evaporate and then you add 10 gallons of purified water you will be back to ~10 alk level. - pH is not an "easy" unit of measurement, so simple math does NOT apply to mixing (mixing equal amounts of water of pH 5 with water pH 8 DOES NOT GIVE you pH 7!) You should not worry adding small amounts of purified water with pH 5. It will simply NOT AFFECT significantly the pH of your tank water. - you do not need to process ro water either... Acid pH level of RO water is not important! If that is the case, you won't mind if I pour a bottle of HCL into your aquarium, since pH is not important to you. Wrong. Adding purified water at pH 5 IS NOT THE SAME as adding a bottle of HCl to your fish tank... And you should know it better. I would not mind to pour purified water (without CO2) with a *small* addition of HCl to cause *same pH 5 of the water*. That is correct: I wouldn't mind! The single serious mistake in your thinking process is that you seem to miss the fact that it takes VERY LITTLE of acid to drop pH of pure water (pure = without any buffers in it...) Based on this mistake the rest of conclusions is wrong, too. This is incorrect. The RO water I tested for pH was in an unsealed five gallon plastic container, and had been made at least four days before I tested it. The pH was 5.0, indicating high concentrations of CO2 in the water. Once I add buffers and aerated the water, the pH rose to 7.5. It did not indicate "high concentrations of CO2"! (high/low is very vague anyway...) See, this is exactly what takes you off track here... High buffering capacity of water means it is hard to CHANGE pH of water with addition of acid. Low buffering capacity of water means it is very easy to change pH of water with even very small addition of acid (like CO2). If you do not believe me, try to challenge yourself with calculation of HOW MUCH CO2 does it take to change pH of purified water (18Mohms) from 7 to 5. I asure you, it does not take much CO2 to make significant drop in pH assuming there is no buffers in the water. In fact, by adding buffers to the water you probably DID NOT CHANGE THE AMOUNT OF DILUTED CO2 in the bucket... So pouring the bucket with or without buffers you actually add THE SAME amount of CO2 into your tank. The buffer just makes you feel better, you see pH 8 :-) After several hours in the bucket the water will have NORMAL level of CO2 and other gases (Nitrogen, Oxygen) dissolved in it. Wrong, wrong, wrong. Make up a gallon of RO water, test the pH, then leave the water in an unsealed plastic container for four days, and then test the pH again. Then come back and tell me that the pH has stabilized to an acceptable reading (5.0, in my case, is not acceptable, and since the pH was at 5.0 after four days, I can imagine what the pH level was at one day. I plan to find out tonight). After couple of hours of aerating, the level of CO2 in solution will reach equilibrium with the ambient CO2 levels. The same will happen with oxygen and nitrogen. This *very small* amount of CO2 will always cause significant pH drop in water lacking buffers, but this effect should not worry us, tank keepers! There is simply nothing in the water to neutralize acidity of dissolved CO2 - oxygen or nitrogen solutions are neutral and they do not cause any pH shift. I'm sure it is able to support higher calcium levels. The thing is that all marine reef tanks use up calcium so it has to be added. I hadn't added any calcium since my last partial water change (about a month). That is why the calcium levels were low. I had been adding buffer periodically, however, which is why I was suprised that my pH was only 7.5. I have a wave maker which causes a lot of evaporation, so I have to add makeup water frequently. This is why I am convinced that the unbuffered RO water was the culprit. And this was my point - you just need to increase dosage of buffers&calcium into your tank due to the animals activity and NOT due to the effects you have discribed ("diluting your buffers with RO water containing a lot of CO2"). You want to add buffers to ro-water before adding it to the tank? Fine... But this is not important. The same effect you would achieve adding buffers directly to the tank. The dosage of buffers and calcium should be related to the uptake of animals/plants/algae you keep in your tank and NOT related to the pH or amount of water you use to top-off the tank to replace what has evaporated. I only add enough clacium to the RO water to make it the same as my tap water, which is 60 mg/L, not enough to cause precipitation since even at that level, adding it to the tank water (which has a concentration of 280 mg/L) is still diluting the tank water. After a couple of days, I will check the calcium concentration in the tank water to see if addition calcium is needed. As I said before, switch your focus from the bogus effects of "diluting" your buffers to REAL effects of animals uptake of buffers/calcium... Adding RO water just REPLACES WHAT HAS EVAPORATED. It does not affect significantly anything else in your tank in comparison to animals uptake. Why would my tank water not support high calcium levels? The only reason for the levels to drop in the first place is because the animals and macroalgae in the tanks are using it. That is why you have to add calcium periodically to reef tanks. I have 4 inches of aragonite sea sand in the tank and three inches of it in the refugium, so the pH isn't going to fall below about 7.5. So why do you worry about minuscule levels of CO2 in your RO water? Do not experiment unless you are sure what you are doing (i.e. have good background of basic chemistry courses). See above. Ok Einstein, what is the vapor pressure of CO2? Note. I've had reef tanks for 14 years (but have only used RO for the last two years), have a maroon clown fish that is also 14 years old, have a 1,200 gallon garden pond, and have raised tropical fish since I was 11 years old. I am also a geologist (more specifically, a hydrogeologist). Well- true, I am not Einstein - in fact, I do not even have a degree in chemistry. So I should probably shut up and wait for you to easily figure out how much CO2 does it take to lover pH of purified water from 7 to 5... Then you can compare how much CO2 does it take to drive normal sea water to pH 5... Please do yourself a favor and present these calculations. The problem is NOT the tank water. The problem IS the make up water. Ok... your are wrong. But I am not going to continue this thread. I understand you invested too much in this discussion and it will be hard for you now to admit you made a mistake... Especially after you were throwing your degree at us here and years of fish keeping experience... So I will shut up now and leave you alone. Your tank - your problem... :-) Maybe in the last act of desperation I will suggest following reading: http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/may2002/chem.htm There are some charts in this article - try to match amount of CO2 which will cause pH drop to 5 in water having 0 buffering capacity. |
"Pszemol" wrote in message ... "George" wrote in message news:xCX8e.639$c24.236@attbi_s72... I have two years of college chemistry, have a masters in Geology, and have raised fish for most of my 46 years. What more chemistry do you think I need in order to understand that if you add unbuffered water with a pH of 5.0, you are going to dilute the buffers in the existing salt water, and will affect the pH, especially since that make up water has a lot of CO2 in it with a pH of 5.0? I think it is going too far... Look, I do not want to make an enemy out of you, but I still think you have it wrong. I am trying to explain what I know, but you do not make it easy... I would fail as a teacher - I am happy I am not one of them... ;-) If you don't want to make an enemy of me then don't make suggestions that I learn something about basic water chemistry. Mr. Boomer! Where are you!??! You had a gift of explaining chemistry to everybody... Let me point some simple facts again, you figure out what you are missing: - it does NOT take a lot of CO2 to lower pH of purified water with no buffers, in fact, it takes VERY LITTLE CO2 to change pH, due to the lack of buffers. - it does not *dilute* buffers, it rather brings them BACK to the level before water evaporated leaving higher concentration of buffers there. Please explain how water with no buffers can bring water with buffers "BACK to the level before water evaporated leaving higher concentration of buffers there". My sal****er was already depleted of buffer before I added the RO water (as indicated by the low pH - 7.5 as opposed to 8.4). If the purified water with no buffer has a low pH due to its CO2 content, adding this low pH water to the salt water will in fact deplete the buffer in that sal****er because it will use up however much buffer it takes to neutralize the CO2. When water evaporates it does not take with it your buffers, No it does not. What takes the buffers is CO2, which is added to the water by micro/macroalgae at night, and by the animals in the aquarium. the same is true when opposite process happens: you do not "need" to add buffers to replace evaporated water (but of course you are free to do so...) - animals building their tissues (and their metabolic products) use up the buffers, not processes of evaporation/toping off with purified water. So do plants. I never said it was a problem of evaporation. So the problem is NOT in your top-off purified water - that is for sure... If you had alk level 10, then you let 10 gallons of water to evaporate and then you add 10 gallons of purified water you will be back to ~10 alk level. Unless something else, such as the plants and animals in the tank are using up the buffer, which we've established that they do. - pH is not an "easy" unit of measurement, so simple math does NOT apply to mixing (mixing equal amounts of water of pH 5 with water pH 8 DOES NOT GIVE you pH 7!) You should not worry adding small amounts of purified water with pH 5. It will simply NOT AFFECT significantly the pH of your tank water. Small amounts don't. That is true. However, my wavemaker causes a lot of evaporation, so I have to add water to the tank daily. - you do not need to process ro water either... Acid pH level of RO water is not important! If that is the case, you won't mind if I pour a bottle of HCL into your aquarium, since pH is not important to you. Wrong. Adding purified water at pH 5 IS NOT THE SAME as adding a bottle of HCl to your fish tank... I know. I was being a smartass. And you should know it better. I would not mind to pour purified water (without CO2) with a *small* addition of HCl to cause *same pH 5 of the water*. That is correct: I wouldn't mind! The single serious mistake in your thinking process is that you seem to miss the fact that it takes VERY LITTLE of acid to drop pH of pure water (pure = without any buffers in it...) Based on this mistake the rest of conclusions is wrong, too. This is incorrect. The RO water I tested for pH was in an unsealed five gallon plastic container, and had been made at least four days before I tested it. The pH was 5.0, indicating high concentrations of CO2 in the water. Once I add buffers and aerated the water, the pH rose to 7.5. It did not indicate "high concentrations of CO2"! (high/low is very vague anyway...) See, this is exactly what takes you off track here... High buffering capacity of water means it is hard to CHANGE pH of water with addition of acid. Low buffering capacity of water means it is very easy to change pH of water with even very small addition of acid (like CO2). Point taken. I guess where I got this all mixed up was the fact that I never had to worry about low pH in my take up water before, because I used DI water. If you do not believe me, try to challenge yourself with calculation of HOW MUCH CO2 does it take to change pH of purified water (18Mohms) from 7 to 5. I asure you, it does not take much CO2 to make significant drop in pH assuming there is no buffers in the water. In fact, by adding buffers to the water you probably DID NOT CHANGE THE AMOUNT OF DILUTED CO2 in the bucket... So pouring the bucket with or without buffers you actually add THE SAME amount of CO2 into your tank. The buffer just makes you feel better, you see pH 8 :-) I also aerated the water, which should help drive off the CO2. Right? By the way, I just made up a new batch of RO water today, and it tested below 4.5 (the lowest range of my test kit). After several hours in the bucket the water will have NORMAL level of CO2 and other gases (Nitrogen, Oxygen) dissolved in it. Wrong, wrong, wrong. Make up a gallon of RO water, test the pH, then leave the water in an unsealed plastic container for four days, and then test the pH again. Then come back and tell me that the pH has stabilized to an acceptable reading (5.0, in my case, is not acceptable, and since the pH was at 5.0 after four days, I can imagine what the pH level was at one day. I plan to find out tonight). After couple of hours of aerating, the level of CO2 in solution will reach equilibrium with the ambient CO2 levels. With aeration, yes. The same will happen with oxygen and nitrogen. This *very small* amount of CO2 will always cause significant pH drop in water lacking buffers, but this effect should not worry us, tank keepers! There is simply nothing in the water to neutralize acidity of dissolved CO2 - oxygen or nitrogen solutions are neutral and they do not cause any pH shift. Doesn't calcium react with CO2 in solution to form calcium carbonate (CaCO3)? Yes, it sure does. Of course, any CO2 sequestered this way will only be replaced by CO2 from the atmosphere. Correct? I'm sure it is able to support higher calcium levels. The thing is that all marine reef tanks use up calcium so it has to be added. I hadn't added any calcium since my last partial water change (about a month). That is why the calcium levels were low. I had been adding buffer periodically, however, which is why I was suprised that my pH was only 7.5. I have a wave maker which causes a lot of evaporation, so I have to add makeup water frequently. This is why I am convinced that the unbuffered RO water was the culprit. And this was my point - you just need to increase dosage of buffers&calcium into your tank due to the animals activity and NOT due to the effects you have discribed ("diluting your buffers with RO water containing a lot of CO2"). You want to add buffers to ro-water before adding it to the tank? Fine... But this is not important. The same effect you would achieve adding buffers directly to the tank. The dosage of buffers and calcium should be related to the uptake of animals/plants/algae you keep in your tank and NOT related to the pH or amount of water you use to top-off the tank to replace what has evaporated. Point taken. However, there is a direct relationship between alkalinity and pH. And it makes sense to me to add the buffer to the make up water instead of putting it directly into the tank. I only add enough clacium to the RO water to make it the same as my tap water, which is 60 mg/L, not enough to cause precipitation since even at that level, adding it to the tank water (which has a concentration of 280 mg/L) is still diluting the tank water. After a couple of days, I will check the calcium concentration in the tank water to see if addition calcium is needed. As I said before, switch your focus from the bogus effects of "diluting" your buffers to REAL effects of animals uptake of buffers/calcium... Adding RO water just REPLACES WHAT HAS EVAPORATED. It does not affect significantly anything else in your tank in comparison to animals uptake. And if you test the tank water, and find that the Calcium, alkalinity and pH are off before you add unbuffered water, low pH water? Why would my tank water not support high calcium levels? The only reason for the levels to drop in the first place is because the animals and macroalgae in the tanks are using it. That is why you have to add calcium periodically to reef tanks. I have 4 inches of aragonite sea sand in the tank and three inches of it in the refugium, so the pH isn't going to fall below about 7.5. So why do you worry about minuscule levels of CO2 in your RO water? Because I saw a notable drop in the pH of my tank after I introduced the RO water. That was the reason for my concern in the first place, and why I investigated the pH of the RO water. Do not experiment unless you are sure what you are doing (i.e. have good background of basic chemistry courses). See above. Ok Einstein, what is the vapor pressure of CO2? Note. I've had reef tanks for 14 years (but have only used RO for the last two years), have a maroon clown fish that is also 14 years old, have a 1,200 gallon garden pond, and have raised tropical fish since I was 11 years old. I am also a geologist (more specifically, a hydrogeologist). Well- true, I am not Einstein - in fact, I do not even have a degree in chemistry. So I should probably shut up and wait for you to easily figure out how much CO2 does it take to lover pH of purified water from 7 to 5... Then you can compare how much CO2 does it take to drive normal sea water to pH 5... Please do yourself a favor and present these calculations. The problem is NOT the tank water. The problem IS the make up water. Ok... your are wrong. But I am not going to continue this thread. I understand you invested too much in this discussion and it will be hard for you now to admit you made a mistake... Especially after you were throwing your degree at us here and years of fish keeping experience... So I will shut up now and leave you alone. Your tank - your problem... :-) Maybe in the last act of desperation I will suggest following reading: http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/may2002/chem.htm There are some charts in this article - try to match amount of CO2 which will cause pH drop to 5 in water having 0 buffering capacity. Thanks for the link. I'll get back to you. I'm running some more tests. |
"George" wrote in message news:gC09e.516$r53.251@attbi_s21...
- it does NOT take a lot of CO2 to lower pH of purified water with no buffers, in fact, it takes VERY LITTLE CO2 to change pH, due to the lack of buffers. No comment on above?? ;-) - it does not *dilute* buffers, it rather brings them BACK to the level before water evaporated leaving higher concentration of buffers there. Please explain how water with no buffers can bring water with buffers "BACK to the level before water evaporated leaving higher concentration of buffers there". My sal****er was already depleted of buffer before I added the RO water (as indicated by the low pH - 7.5 as opposed to 8.4). If the purified water with no buffer has a low pH due to its CO2 content, adding this low pH water to the salt water will in fact deplete the buffer in that sal****er because it will use up however much buffer it takes to neutralize the CO2. You are partially right, but not the ro water is the problem here... Actually in terms of buffers you do not care about dilutions - if your water has buffering capabilities to neutralize addition of 1 mol of HCl before top off then after adding even additional 10% of pure water it will STILL HAVE CAPABILITIES TO NEUTRALIZE same amount of acid. When you have not enough buffer for your animals then you have not enough buffer, period. Adding pure water does not decrease or increase your total tank buffering capabilities. When water evaporates it does not take with it your buffers, No it does not. What takes the buffers is CO2, which is added to the water by micro/macroalgae at night, and by the animals in the aquarium. CO2 is only part of the problem here. And as you noticed yourself now, the problem is in your tank water, not your top-off purified water... Totaly opposite to what you were arguing before. So the problem is NOT in your top-off purified water - that is for sure... If you had alk level 10, then you let 10 gallons of water to evaporate and then you add 10 gallons of purified water you will be back to ~10 alk level. Unless something else, such as the plants and animals in the tank are using up the buffer, which we've established that they do. So, once again, the problem is not related to your top off water with pH 5. Small amounts don't. That is true. However, my wavemaker causes a lot of evaporation, so I have to add water to the tank daily. Mee too. It still does not make any difference! CO2 freely dissolves in your tank water exactly as in your ro water. The difference is in the buffers: you do not have them in the ro-water so that is why you see pH drop. See, this is exactly what takes you off track here... High buffering capacity of water means it is hard to CHANGE pH of water with addition of acid. Low buffering capacity of water means it is very easy to change pH of water with even very small addition of acid (like CO2). Point taken. I guess where I got this all mixed up was the fact that I never had to worry about low pH in my take up water before, because I used DI water. And this is another strange thing in your description. DI water SHOULD have the same issues as RO or distilled water. Real DI water should be even cleaner than RO water, so it should be even more easy to change its pH with CO2 introduction... If you never noticed low pH of your DI water I would bet it was not very pure water... I also aerated the water, which should help drive off the CO2. Right? Yes. But if you have a lot of CO2 in your indoor air (humans, pets, etc) the equilibrium after aerating will be on the higher levels of CO2 in the water, which translates to lower pH levels of the pure water. By the way, I just made up a new batch of RO water today, and it tested below 4.5 (the lowest range of my test kit). And this does not surprise me. What I do not understand is why do you even bother measuring pH level of purified water... It is completely irrelevant to our situation. The pH of mixed salt water before a water change is a totally different story and you need to measure it for sure... But RO water? Forget it. DI water? Forget it. Distilled ? The same. All these water types will always have low pH readings when after being in contact with air containing CO2. This is a fact of life. After couple of hours of aerating, the level of CO2 in solution will reach equilibrium with the ambient CO2 levels. With aeration, yes. Without aeration the same. But it just take a little longer. As long as you have water/air surface contact the gases will diffuse and will exchange between water and air... Plain and simple physics. Doesn't calcium react with CO2 in solution to form calcium carbonate (CaCO3)? Yes, it sure does. Of course, any CO2 sequestered this way will only be replaced by CO2 from the atmosphere. Correct? You do not want this process to occur. This is the snowy precipitation of calcium from the solution. When you see this something bad happened to your water. You need to do everything to prevent this from happening. Point taken. However, there is a direct relationship between alkalinity and pH. And it makes sense to me to add the buffer to the make up water instead of putting it directly into the tank. It really does not matter. The way I put the buffer is I dissolve a tablespoon of buffer powder in luke warm cup of purified water and add the solution directly to the tank, in the high velocity spot, usually into the outlet of the return water from the sump... The point is that you not need to worry about pH of pure water. If you like it better to add buffer to top off water - do it... But don't you tell me you do it "because this water has scarry pH level 5"... You do it because you do not have enough buffer IN YOUR TANK WATER due to the living processes taking part in it. Addition of CO2 to your system with top-off water is so small that any pH fluctuations of pH after top-off would be worrying. You need MUCH MOOOOORE buffering capacity in your tank than it is needed to buffer small addition of CO2 from ambient air. You will see details after you read the article by Mr. Randy Holmes. And if you test the tank water, and find that the Calcium, alkalinity and pH are off before you add unbuffered water, low pH water? Again, it really does not matter. So why do you worry about minuscule levels of CO2 in your RO water? Because I saw a notable drop in the pH of my tank after I introduced the RO water. That was the reason for my concern in the first place, and why I investigated the pH of the RO water. Very interesting. How much water you have added and how fast? Did you take measurements just before adding water and just after? What is your normal error of pH measurement and what pH change you call "notable drop"? I would guess you need to do a massive top off and do it very fast to notice any influence of CO2 on pH. Maybe in the last act of desperation I will suggest following reading: http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/may2002/chem.htm There are some charts in this article - try to match amount of CO2 which will cause pH drop to 5 in water having 0 buffering capacity. Thanks for the link. I'll get back to you. I'm running some more tests. Calcium level of 280 and pH 7.5 is worrying. What salt mix do you use? BTW - To really know your pH changes you need to replace your color pH tests with electronic pH-meter and make sure it is correctly calibrated... I am using one and had been using color test - I am speaking from experience. Of course, pH-meter is not good for directly testing pH of ro/di/distiled water. |
"Pszemol" wrote in message ... "George" wrote in message news:gC09e.516$r53.251@attbi_s21... - it does NOT take a lot of CO2 to lower pH of purified water with no buffers, in fact, it takes VERY LITTLE CO2 to change pH, due to the lack of buffers. No comment on above?? ;-) - it does not *dilute* buffers, it rather brings them BACK to the level before water evaporated leaving higher concentration of buffers there. Please explain how water with no buffers can bring water with buffers "BACK to the level before water evaporated leaving higher concentration of buffers there". My sal****er was already depleted of buffer before I added the RO water (as indicated by the low pH - 7.5 as opposed to 8.4). If the purified water with no buffer has a low pH due to its CO2 content, adding this low pH water to the salt water will in fact deplete the buffer in that sal****er because it will use up however much buffer it takes to neutralize the CO2. You are partially right, but not the ro water is the problem here... Actually in terms of buffers you do not care about dilutions - if your water has buffering capabilities to neutralize addition of 1 mol of HCl before top off then after adding even additional 10% of pure water it will STILL HAVE CAPABILITIES TO NEUTRALIZE same amount of acid. When you have not enough buffer for your animals then you have not enough buffer, period. Adding pure water does not decrease or increase your total tank buffering capabilities. When water evaporates it does not take with it your buffers, No it does not. What takes the buffers is CO2, which is added to the water by micro/macroalgae at night, and by the animals in the aquarium. CO2 is only part of the problem here. And as you noticed yourself now, the problem is in your tank water, not your top-off purified water... Totaly opposite to what you were arguing before. So the problem is NOT in your top-off purified water - that is for sure... If you had alk level 10, then you let 10 gallons of water to evaporate and then you add 10 gallons of purified water you will be back to ~10 alk level. Unless something else, such as the plants and animals in the tank are using up the buffer, which we've established that they do. So, once again, the problem is not related to your top off water with pH 5. Small amounts don't. That is true. However, my wavemaker causes a lot of evaporation, so I have to add water to the tank daily. Mee too. It still does not make any difference! CO2 freely dissolves in your tank water exactly as in your ro water. The difference is in the buffers: you do not have them in the ro-water so that is why you see pH drop. See, this is exactly what takes you off track here... High buffering capacity of water means it is hard to CHANGE pH of water with addition of acid. Low buffering capacity of water means it is very easy to change pH of water with even very small addition of acid (like CO2). Point taken. I guess where I got this all mixed up was the fact that I never had to worry about low pH in my take up water before, because I used DI water. And this is another strange thing in your description. DI water SHOULD have the same issues as RO or distilled water. Real DI water should be even cleaner than RO water, so it should be even more easy to change its pH with CO2 introduction... If you never noticed low pH of your DI water I would bet it was not very pure water... DI resins remove dissolved gases like CO2, so you shouldn't see the same level of pH drop you see with RO. That was my point. I also aerated the water, which should help drive off the CO2. Right? Yes. But if you have a lot of CO2 in your indoor air (humans, pets, etc) the equilibrium after aerating will be on the higher levels of CO2 in the water, which translates to lower pH levels of the pure water. Not much I could do about that, since my tank is in the basement. By the way, I just made up a new batch of RO water today, and it tested below 4.5 (the lowest range of my test kit). And this does not surprise me. What I do not understand is why do you even bother measuring pH level of purified water... Sigh. Because I didn't realize that RO membranes allowed CO2 to pass through. CO2 not only lowers pH, but promotes algae growth. When I saw the low pH levels in my tank (which, in 14 years of running, I've seen it maybe twice), I decided to test the make up water. It is completely irrelevant to our situation. The pH of mixed salt water before a water change is a totally different story and you need to measure it for sure... But RO water? Forget it. DI water? Forget it. Distilled ? The same. All these water types will always have low pH readings when after being in contact with air containing CO2. This is a fact of life. After couple of hours of aerating, the level of CO2 in solution will reach equilibrium with the ambient CO2 levels. With aeration, yes. Without aeration the same. But it just take a little longer. Well, after four days with no aeration, the pH was 5.0. That bothers me, if for no other reason than it makes me wonder what the CO2 levels are in my basement. As long as you have water/air surface contact the gases will diffuse and will exchange between water and air... Plain and simple physics. Doesn't calcium react with CO2 in solution to form calcium carbonate (CaCO3)? Yes, it sure does. Of course, any CO2 sequestered this way will only be replaced by CO2 from the atmosphere. Correct? You do not want this process to occur. This is the snowy precipitation of calcium from the solution. When you see this something bad happened to your water. You need to do everything to prevent this from happening. I know that. I've never had that problem. I don't let my calicum levels get that high. Point taken. However, there is a direct relationship between alkalinity and pH. And it makes sense to me to add the buffer to the make up water instead of putting it directly into the tank. It really does not matter. The way I put the buffer is I dissolve a tablespoon of buffer powder in luke warm cup of purified water and add the solution directly to the tank, in the high velocity spot, usually into the outlet of the return water from the sump... The point is that you not need to worry about pH of pure water. If you like it better to add buffer to top off water - do it... But don't you tell me you do it "because this water has scarry pH level 5"... You do it because you do not have enough buffer IN YOUR TANK WATER due to the living processes taking part in it. Addition of CO2 to your system with top-off water is so small that any pH fluctuations of pH after top-off would be worrying. You need MUCH MOOOOORE buffering capacity in your tank than it is needed to buffer small addition of CO2 from ambient air. You will see details after you read the article by Mr. Randy Holmes. And if you test the tank water, and find that the Calcium, alkalinity and pH are off before you add unbuffered water, low pH water? Again, it really does not matter. So why do you worry about minuscule levels of CO2 in your RO water? Because I saw a notable drop in the pH of my tank after I introduced the RO water. That was the reason for my concern in the first place, and why I investigated the pH of the RO water. Very interesting. How much water you have added and how fast? I added a couple of gallons over the course of a day during the weekend to a 55 gallon tank with an 18 gallon refugium. Did you take measurements just before adding water and just after? What is your normal error of pH measurement and what pH change you call "notable drop"? I would guess you need to do a massive top off and do it very fast to notice any influence of CO2 on pH. The pH went from 8.2 to 7.5. I measured the pH before I added the water,then after, well about two hours after. Maybe in the last act of desperation I will suggest following reading: http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/may2002/chem.htm There are some charts in this article - try to match amount of CO2 which will cause pH drop to 5 in water having 0 buffering capacity. Thanks for the link. I'll get back to you. I'm running some more tests. Calcium level of 280 and pH 7.5 is worrying. What salt mix do you use? Instant Ocean. I've always used this brand. BTW - To really know your pH changes you need to replace your color pH tests with electronic pH-meter and make sure it is correctly calibrated... Yeah, I'll do that as soon as I pay off my car! I used to have access to a really good probe when I worked at an Environmental Engineering firm here in town. But since I've been working at another firm out of town, I don't have that access (this firm doesn't have as much equiptment as the other one did). I am using one and had been using color test - I am speaking from experience. Of course, pH-meter is not good for directly testing pH of ro/di/distiled water. |
"George" wrote in message news:2599e.1229$r53.744@attbi_s21...
And this is another strange thing in your description. DI water SHOULD have the same issues as RO or distilled water. Real DI water should be even cleaner than RO water, so it should be even more easy to change its pH with CO2 introduction... If you never noticed low pH of your DI water I would bet it was not very pure water... DI resins remove dissolved gases like CO2, so you shouldn't see the same level of pH drop you see with RO. That was my point. After couple of hours of aeration the concentration of CO2 in the water will be in equilibrium, regardless of the water origins... DI or RO water should have the same pH at this point, if equally pure. DI water tends to be cleaner than an average RO water, so the pH of DI water would be lower than pH of RO water, but - again - it does not matter at all. Yes. But if you have a lot of CO2 in your indoor air (humans, pets, etc) the equilibrium after aerating will be on the higher levels of CO2 in the water, which translates to lower pH levels of the pure water. Not much I could do about that, since my tank is in the basement. And this could be the most important reason for your low pH 7.5. High concentration of CO2 in the ambient air will cause high concentration of CO2 in the tank water. To increase ventilation of the fish room is the only way to cope with this issue... The same high concentration of CO2 causes problems in my tank. Sigh. Because I didn't realize that RO membranes allowed CO2 to pass through. CO2 not only lowers pH, but promotes algae growth. When I saw the low pH levels in my tank (which, in 14 years of running, I've seen it maybe twice), I decided to test the make up water. I do not care how much CO2 does RO stop/pass - since I am not using RO water right from the filter but aerate it in an open bucket... After couple of hours of aerating, the level of CO2 in solution will reach equilibrium with the ambient CO2 levels. With aeration, yes. Without aeration the same. But it just take a little longer. Well, after four days with no aeration, the pH was 5.0. That bothers me, if for no other reason than it makes me wonder what the CO2 levels are in my basement. You can simply find out using some CO2 meter - like this one: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tem=4374263171 You could even think of running automated ventilation system based on your CO2 level in the basement air :-) Of course it would influence your whole house ventilation as well. Yeah, I'll do that as soon as I pay off my car! I used to have access to a really good probe when I worked at an Environmental Engineering firm here in town. But since I've been working at another firm out of town, I don't have that access (this firm doesn't have as much equiptment as the other one did). You do not need state of the art meter... $50 one would be fine. I got some used one from eBay made by Thermo Orion about 10 years ago. Excellent condition, fully automatic, two channels (if you like to monitor ORP levels as well) fluorescent blue display nicely visible at night, AC powered - highly recommend: Thermo Orion 525A. Good luck with your tank. Keep us posted how is it going with pH... |
"Pszemol" wrote in message ... "George" wrote in message news:2599e.1229$r53.744@attbi_s21... And this is another strange thing in your description. DI water SHOULD have the same issues as RO or distilled water. Real DI water should be even cleaner than RO water, so it should be even more easy to change its pH with CO2 introduction... If you never noticed low pH of your DI water I would bet it was not very pure water... DI resins remove dissolved gases like CO2, so you shouldn't see the same level of pH drop you see with RO. That was my point. After couple of hours of aeration the concentration of CO2 in the water will be in equilibrium, regardless of the water origins... Again my point is that DI water removes CO2, regardless of equilibrium conditions afterwards. I do understand the meaning of equilibrium. What I'm trying to say is that with my DI unit, I never had low pH with my make up water, so I am reasonably certain that the CO2 is not coming from the air in my house. It has to be in the water. Considering that Iive in a region that has lots of carbonate rocks, the feed water is likely the source of the CO2, not the air in my house. DI or RO water should have the same pH at this point, if equally pure. Ok, back to the aeration bit. I've been aerating the water I made up yesterday. Before I aerated the water, it had a pH of 4.5, as I mentioned before. It has now been nearly 12 hours and the pH is only 6.0. So for me, it is going to take a longer period of time to aerate the water. This is in line with what was suggested at the link I provided earlier. DI water tends to be cleaner than an average RO water, so the pH of DI water would be lower than pH of RO water, but - again - it does not matter at all. I don't know how I can say it any clearer. DI units remove dissolved gases like chlorine and CO2, so the pH will not be as low as it will with RO, which doesn't remove CO2. Yes. But if you have a lot of CO2 in your indoor air (humans, pets, etc) the equilibrium after aerating will be on the higher levels of CO2 in the water, which translates to lower pH levels of the pure water. Not much I could do about that, since my tank is in the basement. And this could be the most important reason for your low pH 7.5. High concentration of CO2 in the ambient air will cause high concentration of CO2 in the tank water. To increase ventilation of the fish room is the only way to cope with this issue... The same high concentration of CO2 causes problems in my tank. I would tend to agree except that I didn't have this pH problem when I was using the DI water, so I really don't think CO2 in my basement is the issue at all. Sigh. Because I didn't realize that RO membranes allowed CO2 to pass through. CO2 not only lowers pH, but promotes algae growth. When I saw the low pH levels in my tank (which, in 14 years of running, I've seen it maybe twice), I decided to test the make up water. I do not care how much CO2 does RO stop/pass - since I am not using RO water right from the filter but aerate it in an open bucket... After couple of hours of aerating, the level of CO2 in solution will reach equilibrium with the ambient CO2 levels. With aeration, yes. Without aeration the same. But it just take a little longer. Well, after four days with no aeration, the pH was 5.0. That bothers me, if for no other reason than it makes me wonder what the CO2 levels are in my basement. You can simply find out using some CO2 meter - like this one: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tem=4374263171 I've got access to a Drager air sampler, so I will see if I can borrow it, but I really don't think that CO2 in the air in my house is the problem, but we'll see: http://www.envisupply.com/rentals/in...AirSampler.htm You could even think of running automated ventilation system based on your CO2 level in the basement air :-) Of course it would influence your whole house ventilation as well. Sorry. I like my aquarium, but not that much. Yeah, I'll do that as soon as I pay off my car! I used to have access to a really good probe when I worked at an Environmental Engineering firm here in town. But since I've been working at another firm out of town, I don't have that access (this firm doesn't have as much equiptment as the other one did). You do not need state of the art meter... $50 one would be fine. I got some used one from eBay made by Thermo Orion about 10 years ago. Excellent condition, fully automatic, two channels (if you like to monitor ORP levels as well) fluorescent blue display nicely visible at night, AC powered - highly recommend: Thermo Orion 525A. Good luck with your tank. Keep us posted how is it going with pH... Since I work in environmental consulting, I've used a lot of different meters. If I am going to buy one (which may be a while before I do), I'll likely buy one like this one: http://www.coleparmer.com/catalog/pr...=&lstBool=true |
Hi George,
Your problems are in no way related to the use of RO or DI or RO/DI water for evaporation top of, a PH of between 4 and 5 is quite normal for an efficient RO/DI unit, commercially produced RO/DI water has a buffer added to it as the law in most countrys requires drinking water to be not less than neutral i.e. PH 7.0. My 300g system has an evaporation rate of 20 litres per day which is replaced daily with RO/DI water at PH 5, taken before the buffer is added (we have a commercial RO/DI water plant in the family), my PH is constant at 8.3 or 8.4 in all my tanks, I do occasionally add 'Kalk' to my top of water as as when it is necessary. Your problem is in your tank water, as has already been stated and you should know evaporation does not remove buffers or anything else. (leaks will though !!). For someone claiming to have done a 2 year chemistry course and hold a masters degree in Hydro geology and was it 30 odd years in the hobby? you are not talking much sense, a lot of your statements are 'iffy' to put it mildly. regards, unclenorm. George wrote: "Pszemol" wrote in message ... "George" wrote in message news:2599e.1229$r53.744@attbi_s21... And this is another strange thing in your description. DI water SHOULD have the same issues as RO or distilled water. Real DI water should be even cleaner than RO water, so it should be even more easy to change its pH with CO2 introduction... If you never noticed low pH of your DI water I would bet it was not very pure water... DI resins remove dissolved gases like CO2, so you shouldn't see the same level of pH drop you see with RO. That was my point. After couple of hours of aeration the concentration of CO2 in the water will be in equilibrium, regardless of the water origins... Again my point is that DI water removes CO2, regardless of equilibrium conditions afterwards. I do understand the meaning of equilibrium. What I'm trying to say is that with my DI unit, I never had low pH with my make up water, so I am reasonably certain that the CO2 is not coming from the air in my house. It has to be in the water. Considering that Iive in a region that has lots of carbonate rocks, the feed water is likely the source of the CO2, not the air in my house. DI or RO water should have the same pH at this point, if equally pure. Ok, back to the aeration bit. I've been aerating the water I made up yesterday. Before I aerated the water, it had a pH of 4.5, as I mentioned before. It has now been nearly 12 hours and the pH is only 6.0. So for me, it is going to take a longer period of time to aerate the water. This is in line with what was suggested at the link I provided earlier. DI water tends to be cleaner than an average RO water, so the pH of DI water would be lower than pH of RO water, but - again - it does not matter at all. I don't know how I can say it any clearer. DI units remove dissolved gases like chlorine and CO2, so the pH will not be as low as it will with RO, which doesn't remove CO2. Yes. But if you have a lot of CO2 in your indoor air (humans, pets, etc) the equilibrium after aerating will be on the higher levels of CO2 in the water, which translates to lower pH levels of the pure water. Not much I could do about that, since my tank is in the basement. And this could be the most important reason for your low pH 7.5. High concentration of CO2 in the ambient air will cause high concentration of CO2 in the tank water. To increase ventilation of the fish room is the only way to cope with this issue... The same high concentration of CO2 causes problems in my tank. I would tend to agree except that I didn't have this pH problem when I was using the DI water, so I really don't think CO2 in my basement is the issue at all. Sigh. Because I didn't realize that RO membranes allowed CO2 to pass through. CO2 not only lowers pH, but promotes algae growth. When I saw the low pH levels in my tank (which, in 14 years of running, I've seen it maybe twice), I decided to test the make up water. I do not care how much CO2 does RO stop/pass - since I am not using RO water right from the filter but aerate it in an open bucket... After couple of hours of aerating, the level of CO2 in solution will reach equilibrium with the ambient CO2 levels. With aeration, yes. Without aeration the same. But it just take a little longer. Well, after four days with no aeration, the pH was 5.0. That bothers me, if for no other reason than it makes me wonder what the CO2 levels are in my basement. You can simply find out using some CO2 meter - like this one: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tem=4374263171 I've got access to a Drager air sampler, so I will see if I can borrow it, but I really don't think that CO2 in the air in my house is the problem, but we'll see: http://www.envisupply.com/rentals/in...AirSampler.htm You could even think of running automated ventilation system based on your CO2 level in the basement air :-) Of course it would influence your whole house ventilation as well. Sorry. I like my aquarium, but not that much. Yeah, I'll do that as soon as I pay off my car! I used to have access to a really good probe when I worked at an Environmental Engineering firm here in town. But since I've been working at another firm out of town, I don't have that access (this firm doesn't have as much equiptment as the other one did). You do not need state of the art meter... $50 one would be fine. I got some used one from eBay made by Thermo Orion about 10 years ago. Excellent condition, fully automatic, two channels (if you like to monitor ORP levels as well) fluorescent blue display nicely visible at night, AC powered - highly recommend: Thermo Orion 525A. Good luck with your tank. Keep us posted how is it going with pH... Since I work in environmental consulting, I've used a lot of different meters. If I am going to buy one (which may be a while before I do), I'll likely buy one like this one: http://www.coleparmer.com/catalog/pr...=&lstBool=true |
"unclenorm" wrote in message ups.com... Hi George, Your problems are in no way related to the use of RO or DI or RO/DI water for evaporation top of, a PH of between 4 and 5 is quite normal for an efficient RO/DI unit, commercially produced RO/DI water has a buffer added to it as the law in most countrys requires drinking water to be not less than neutral i.e. PH 7.0. My 300g system has an evaporation rate of 20 litres per day which is replaced daily with RO/DI water at PH 5, taken before the buffer is added (we have a commercial RO/DI water plant in the family), my PH is constant at 8.3 or 8.4 in all my tanks, I do occasionally add 'Kalk' to my top of water as as when it is necessary. Your problem is in your tank water, as has already been stated and you should know evaporation does not remove buffers or anything else. (leaks will though !!). For someone claiming to have done a 2 year chemistry course and hold a masters degree in Hydro geology and was it 30 odd years in the hobby? you are not talking much sense, a lot of your statements are 'iffy' to put it mildly. regards, unclenorm. Plants and animals will cause changes in the tanks buffer system, particularly plants. The buffers don't stay in solution indefinitely, whether there is evaporation or not. Some of it gets used up. And yes I've been in the aquarium hobby all of my life, though have only had a salt water tank for 14 years. |
George,
That's rather an odd reply from someone with all your stated experience, while your statement is true the changes are insignificant and would take along time to show in a salt water system unlike fresh water. regards, unclenorm. PS. I've been n the hobby for more than 50 years. |
"unclenorm" wrote in message oups.com... George, That's rather an odd reply from someone with all your stated experience, while your statement is true the changes are insignificant and would take along time to show in a salt water system unlike fresh water. regards, unclenorm. PS. I've been n the hobby for more than 50 years. That has been the assumption for a long time by a lot of aquarists. I'm not so sure that it is insignificant. I guess I'll have to wait and see how things change in the hobby over the next few years. Remember, things have changed tremendously over the last few years alone. We are finding things ouot all the time. I'm still open to the suggestion that it might be insignificant, yet my own experience suggests that it may not be. |
Hi again George,
Here's an example of my experience with one of my smaller tanks. It's a DIY 111g system :- 68g display with 30g refugium/13g sump, this system was set up about 3.5 years ago using RO/DI water, 'Marinium' artificial sea salt and some Sodium Bicarbonate about days 3,4 and 5 to raise the PH to 8.4 the display has a 3"/3.5" live sand bed with 140lbs live rock, mostly dead corals in large pieces, sitting on a 1/2" PVC pipe framework closed loop at the sand surface, drilled with small holes like a spray bar and fed by a 2000L/hr power head to give good circulation through the live rock. The display tank has a total flow of 2,560g/hr about 37 tanks per hour made up of the return pump, the closed loop mentioned above and 3 power heads, one of which is quite small, 600L/hr it's function is to keep the 2 overflow bends permanently primed by drawing any air out of the top of the bends via air line tubing and fitting glued in the highest points. (fool proof and fail safe). The refugium has a 7" live deep sand bed. I also have a Jebo quadplex spraying protein skimmer in the sump processing 2,000L/hr. this system evaporates about 8 to 10Lt per day depending on the ambient temp. ( today at noon it was 37C (98F) the tank runs at 29/33C. My top of water is straight RO/DI PH5/6. In 3.5 years I've added very small amounts of Sodium Bicarbonate 3 times and 1.5Kg of salt mix once to make up for salinity lose through salt creep, I also add Limewater every couple of weeks to repace consumed calcium and essential elements when required. I do not do water changes because I don't think they are necessary in a well managed system, ( also the cost would be prohibitive in my case with my total volume of water). My water parameters a- Flow 37 tank volumes per hour Temp. 32C SPG 1.023 (about 35 PPT) PH 8.4 KH 115mg/L Ca 430mg/L Fe Less than 0.1- more than 0.0mg/L NH3/NH4 0.0 NO2 0.0 NO3 Less than 5mg/L PO4 0.25mg/L PS. I do use activated carbon for about a week maybe twice a year to polish the water. Also I have 5W/G lighting via 20,000k MH, 10,000 Fluorescents and O3 actinic's and 10,000K on the refugium on reverse cycle to stablize the PH. regards, unclenorm. |
I will look at all this tomorrow if I can. It is a real mess :-)
For now; George you have allot of things messed up you don't understand. Most is the misunderstanding of RO/DI pH and what Alk is and means and its relationship or no relationship to CO2. For starts CO2 has no effect on Ak and vise versa. I don't care if your alk is 20 meq/ l. If I blow in the water with a straw the pH will crash period. And you can prove this to yourself. When ever you add a buffer it increases both the alk and CO2. You CAN NOT measure the pH of RO/D water, there is nothing in the water to measure the pH. The readings are false, until it has some "salts" in it. Just because your kit says pH 5 means nothing. There is nothing wrong, if one wishes, to add some buffer to RO/DI water, for top-off water. Why in gods name would you want to mess with buffers, for your reasons, with calcium chloride and sodium bicarbonate in top-of water. You would have to get out the calculator to figure how much of each so it is BALANCED. It would be smarter to add kalk, a balanced additive. It adds Calcium, removers CO2, phosphates, produces buffers like HCO3 (bicarbonate) and raises the pH You kill four birds with one stone. My background is also geology :-) -- Boomer Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php Former US Army Bomb Technician (EOD) Member; IABTI, NATEODA, WEODF, ISEE & IPS If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up |
"Boomer" wrote in message ... I will look at all this tomorrow if I can. It is a real mess :-) For now; George you have allot of things messed up you don't understand. Most is the misunderstanding of RO/DI pH and what Alk is and means and its relationship or no relationship to CO2. For starts CO2 has no effect on Ak and vise versa. I don't care if your alk is 20 meq/ l. If I blow in the water with a straw the pH will crash period. And you can prove this to yourself. When ever you add a buffer it increases both the alk and CO2. You CAN NOT measure the pH of RO/D water, there is nothing in the water to measure the pH. The readings are false, until it has some "salts" in it. Just because your kit says pH 5 means nothing. There is nothing wrong, if one wishes, to add some buffer to RO/DI water, for top-off water. Why in gods name would you want to mess with buffers, for your reasons, with calcium chloride and sodium bicarbonate in top-of water. You would have to get out the calculator to figure how much of each so it is BALANCED. It would be smarter to add kalk, a balanced additive. It adds Calcium, removers CO2, phosphates, produces buffers like HCO3 (bicarbonate) and raises the pH You kill four birds with one stone. My background is also geology :-) -- Boomer My my, Boomer. You certainly said a lot here. Apparently, you don't understand what pH is measuring. pH is a measure of the concentration of the H+ ion relative to OH- ion in solution. It measures nothing else. Your comment that there is nothing in RO/DI water to measure indicates that you misunderstand what pH is measuring. If pH cannot be measured in RO/DI water, that would suggest that it really isn't water, which is totally absurd since water is a solution containing relative abundences of H+ and OH- ions. Pure water has a pH of 7 because the concentrations of the H+ ion relative to OH- ion are balanced. RO water removes nearly everything from ther water except dissolved gases like CO2, which easily pass through the membrane. This is why the pH of RO water is often much lower than that of pure water. It certainly does have something in it. It contains dissolved CO2 gas along with H+ and OH- ions. The OH- will combine with the CO2 to make the water acidic by producing the dibasic acid carbonic acid (H2CO3), lowering the concentration of free OH- relative to H+ in the water, and producing a low pH. The measurement is not false. Of course, the amount of CO2 in the RO water depends on the concentrations of CO2 in the source water you are using. Apparently, given the absence of buffersin RO water, it only takes a small amount of CO2 to lower the pH in the RO water. As for kalk, it is composed of calcium hydroxide. As such, it cannot add the carbonate ion to your water because carbonate is not in kalkwaser. The OH- in kalkwaser can combine with CO2 already in the water to produce HCO3- in a reaction that takes place in the water. This is certainly true. But then the HCO3- will combine with H+ in the water in a further reaction to make H2CO3 (carbonic acid, which lowers pH). When you add kalkwaser to your water, you are adding Ca+ and OH-, which is alkaline, and raises alkalinity as well as calcium concentrations, but will only do so if the concenration of CAOH is high enough to overcome the generation of H2CO3. On the other hand, Carbonate certainly is in sodium bicarbonate. If you add calcium chloride and sodium bicarbonate to your water, your result is calcium carbonate and sodium chloride. Now, in doing this, you certainly aren't adding enough sodium chloride to the system wo hurt anything. You are, however adding the needed calcium carbonate, which is what you are trying to add in the first place. |
As I thought I'm dealing with what others thought is an idiot, that does not understand
chemistry at all but thinks he does. You are not the first one to try this. You understand what pH is but not what entails its analytical measurement. I guess all the chemists I know with PhD's, Like Dr Randy Holmes Farley and Dr.Craig Bingman who are famous as chemists not only in their field of chemistry but also in this Hobby are a bunch of air-heads. No go down and L@@K , if you have the balls, to at the link in my sig and dare to come there and make these statements. Then of course there is Dr. Frank Milero, a chemical oceanographer at the Roesentiel School of Marine and Atmospheric Science who also must be talking out of his butt. Go to the library, make some phone calls to anyalical labs, that make pH meters and test kits. Get a source on the web or book on pH measuremnt and ITS CHEMISTRY OF MEASUREMENT, not what pH issssssssssss Let me show you how stupid you are When you add kalkwaser to your water, you are adding Ca+ and OH-, which is alkaline, and raises alkalinity as well as calcium concentrations, but will only do so if the concenration of CAOH is high enough to overcome the generation of H2CO3 Ok, we will go with your ass backwards understanding of the subject When you add bicarbonate to the water it can do this HCO3 + H --- H2CO3...so how are you going to "overcome the generation of H2CO3" For 20 years reefers have been adding kalk to their make-up water to maintain pH, alk and Ca. I guess you just told a few 100,000 reefers they are all wrong.YOU look at reactions in a book but DO NOT understand what they hell the mean or are saying. Buy the way YOU may want to tell some reefers who's RO/DI water is a pH of 8 or 9 that it is a real value. So, you need to come to our Chem forum and explain that to Dr. Randy Holmes Farley who's RO/DI pH is 9 !!!!!. Here is some stuff he has written and Craig Bingman. I guess it is all wrong according to you.. Before you speak again get your fat swelled head out of your ass AND LEARN SOMETHING Solving Common Problems Solving Calcium and Alkalinity Problems http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/nov2002/chem.htm Low pH: Causes and Cures http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-09/rhf/index.htm High pH: Causes and Cures http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-03/rhf/index.htm How to Select a Calcium and Alkalinity Supplementation Scheme http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/feb2003/chem.htm Phosphorus: Algae's Best Friend http://www.advancedaquarist.com/iss...pt2002/chem.htm Nitrate in the Reef Aquarium http://www.advancedaquarist.com/iss...st2003/chem.htm Calcium and Alkalinity When Do Calcium and Alkalinity Demand Not Exactly Balance? http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-12/rhf/index.htm A Homemade Two-Part Calcium and Alkalinity Additive System http://www.advancedaquarist.com/iss...il2004/chem.htm Solving Calcium and Alkalinity Problems http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/nov2002/chem.htm How to Select a Calcium and Alkalinity Supplementation Scheme http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/feb2003/chem.htm Limewater (kalkwasser) What Your Grandmother Never Told You About Lime http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-01/rhf/index.htm The Self Purification of Limewater (Kalkwasser) http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/may2003/chem.htm The Degradation of Limewater (Kalkwasser) in Air http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-...ature/index.htm Magnesium and Strontium in Limewater http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/dec2003/chem.htm How to Select a Calcium and Alkalinity Supplementation Scheme http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/feb2003/chem.htm Carbon Dioxide tests http://web.archive.org/web/20030704...n=&RecordNo=279 Limewater, Acetic Acid and Sand Clumping http://web.archive.org/web/20030608...n=&RecordNo=181 Calcium and Alkalinity http://web.archive.org/web/20030608...bio/default.asp Calculation of Calcium Carbonate Saturation States in Reef Aquaria http://web.archive.org/web/20030418...bio/default.asp Calcification Rates in Several Tropical Coral Reef Aquaria http://web.archive.org/web/20030608...bio/default.asp Limits To Limewater...Revisited http://web.archive.org/web/20030618...bio/default.asp Expanding the Limits of Limewater: Adding Organic Carbon Sources (vinegar) http://web.archive.org/web/20030418...bio/default.asp Magnesium Ion Precipitation in Reef Aquaria: A Tempest in a Teapot http://web.archive.org/web/20030624...bio/default.asp Magnesium - Part I http://web.archive.org/web/20030624...bio/default.asp Magnesium - Part II http://web.archive.org/web/20030418...bio/default.asp A Homemade Magnesium Supplement http://web.archive.org/web/20030624...bio/default.asp Simulating the Effect of Calcium Chloride and Sodium Bicarbonate Additions on Reef Systems http://web.archive.org/web/20010210...bio/default.asp Additional Simulations: The Combined Effect Of Calcium Chloride /Sodium Bicarbonate Additions And Water Exchanges http://web.archive.org/web/20030624...bio/default.asp -- Boomer Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php Former US Army Bomb Technician (EOD) Member; IABTI, NATEODA, WEODF, ISEE & IPS If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up |
"Boomer" wrote in message ... As I thought I'm dealing with what others thought is an idiot, that does not understand chemistry at all but thinks he does. You are not the first one to try this. You understand what pH is but not what entails its analytical measurement. I guess all the chemists I know with PhD's, Like Dr Randy Holmes Farley and Dr.Craig Bingman who are famous as chemists not only in their field of chemistry but also in this Hobby are a bunch of air-heads. No go down and L@@K , if you have the balls, to at the link in my sig and dare to come there and make these statements. Then of course there is Dr. Frank Milero, a chemical oceanographer at the Roesentiel School of Marine and Atmospheric Science who also must be talking out of his butt. Go to the library, make some phone calls to anyalical labs, that make pH meters and test kits. Get a source on the web or book on pH measuremnt and ITS CHEMISTRY OF MEASUREMENT, not what pH issssssssssss Let me show you how stupid you are Wow, I respond to your post in a rational way and you resort to insults. And this demonstrates your maturity, how? When you add kalkwaser to your water, you are adding Ca+ and OH-, which is alkaline, and raises alkalinity as well as calcium concentrations, but will only do so if the concenration of CAOH is high enough to overcome the generation of H2CO3 Ok, we will go with your ass backwards understanding of the subject When you add bicarbonate to the water it can do this HCO3 + H --- H2CO3...so how are you going to "overcome the generation of H2CO3" CaCO3 = Ca2+ + CO3- HCO3 + H --- H2CO3 CaCO3 + 2 H+ = Ca2+ + H2O + CO2 CaCO3 + H2O = Ca2+ + HCO3- + OH- CaCO3 + H2O + CO2 = Ca2+ + 2HCO3- Ca(OH)2 + CO2 - CaCO3 + H2O CaCO3 + H2CO3 --- CaCO3 + H2O + CO2 Ca(OH)2 + H2CO3 --- CaCO3 + 2H2O Any questions? Did I leave something out? For 20 years reefers have been adding kalk to their make-up water to maintain pH, alk and Ca. I guess you just told a few 100,000 reefers they are all wrong. No, I simply pointed out that YOU apparently don't understand what pH is measuring, or what the reactions are that go on in solutions. Whether you PhD buddies do is a different matter altogether. I see no reason for you to get insulting over this discussion. YOU look at reactions in a book but DO NOT understand what they hell the mean or are saying. Buy the way YOU may want to tell some reefers who's RO/DI water is a pH of 8 or 9 that it is a real value. I know of no one who is using RO water who is getting a pH of 8-9 from fresh, unaltered batches. If so, there is something wrong with the RO units they are using, or there is something in the source water that is getting past the membranes. It you do, then perhaps you could get that person to come here him/her self and explain how that is possible. Theoretically at least, DI water should be neutral since it removes all charged ions from the water. So, you need to come to our Chem forum and explain that to Dr. Randy Holmes Farley who's RO/DI pH is 9 !!!!!. Here is some stuff he has written and Craig Bingman. I guess it is all wrong according to you.. Before you speak again get your fat swelled head out of your ass AND LEARN SOMETHING If everyone at the forums you listed is as ill-mannered as you, I see no reason why I should come to any of those forums and participate in a flame war over simple chemistry. snip |
"Boomer" wrote in message ...
Buy the way YOU may want to tell some reefers who's RO/DI water is a pH of 8 or 9 that it is a real value. So, you need to come to our Chem forum and explain that to Dr. Randy Holmes Farley who's RO/DI pH is 9 !!!!!. Just curious, how does he measure pH of RO/DI water to get such a high value ? |
You did not respond to many post in rational way. Ever time some tried to help you it came
a debate that they don't understand and you do.Often it is time to slap on to get their attention. You can post all the equations you want from a text book and it dos not mean you understand them. You seem to think that some how that is going to scare people into thinking you know your stuff when you don't. If you took the time to read any of those articles you would know how in correct you are. If you took the time on this newsgroup and did a search on chemistry questions I've answered you would not be tooting all this nonsense. The one that is not mature is you. Please go back and read my first post to you, it was polite. Your reply was I don't know what I'm talking about and the an explanation of what pH is. That in short ****ed me off. Here is just one example of where you are confused; "On the other hand, Carbonate certainly is in sodium bicarbonate. If you add calcium chloride and sodium bicarbonate to your water, your result is calcium carbonate and sodium chloride. Now, in doing this, you certainly aren't adding enough sodium chloride to the system wo hurt anything. You are, however adding the needed calcium carbonate, which is what you are trying to add in the first place. " Lets take this apart. "your result is calcium carbonate and sodium chloride" No you are not, put the book down. Calcium Carbonate is Calcite or Aragonite, you say you are a geologists and that is a solid. Sodium Chloride is Halite also a solid. You DO NOT want solids forming in a reef tank. You could not get Sodium Chloride to from in a reef tank if you life depended on it. One would have to remove 90 % of the original volume of water before it forms. When Calcite forms it pulls the Ca and CO3 out of the water, lowers the Ca levels, the Alk and the pH crashes it has no or little buffers left. This is often called a snowstorm and you don 't want that happening. It is quite common when reefers don 't know what they are doing or make a mistakes when adding supplements. It is called abiotic precipitation. You also see this on heaters.When you use a two part supplement, such baking soda and calcium chloride you are adding to the N a + and Cl- ions concentration. There have been studies on it if you looked at the articles I posted. It time this will dis proportionally your salinity and create an ionic imbalance. kalk does not do that, it is only OH - and Ca++ More "RO water removes nearly everything from ther water except dissolved gases like CO2" RO water has virtually no CO2, that is why when it is exposed to ambient air the pH drops. "Pure water has a pH of 7 because the concentrations of the H+ ion relative to OH- ion are balanced" No, actually it is a balance between H3O + and OH-. Go to a search engine and look up Hydronium Ion The pH scale based on a 1M HCl and 1 M of NaOH. What you don't understand is the pH measurement has many interferences with things in the water or not in the water. Such is the case with SEE ( Salt Effect Error), which means pH test kits and meters have problems giving the right readings with high concentration of Cl- ions, such is the case with seawater. "The measurement is not false" Please go to Senorex and tell Mike Russ, who is a pH expert and designs pH probes that he does not know what he is taking about. "The OH- in kalkwaser can combine with CO2 already in the water to produce HCO3- in a reaction that takes place in the water. This is certainly true. But then the HCO3- will combine with H+ in the water in a further reaction to make H2CO3 (carbonic acid, which lowers pH). " Your sodium bicarbonate also picks up H + and yields H2CO3. H + + HCO3- -- H2CO3-. Your pH will fall lower than the kalk as the kalk is generating HCO3 first, as the OH- combines with CO2, which means it will handle and buffer the water better than HCO3, as it has to go through one more step, just like sodium carbonate has one more step like kalk, CO3 + H --- +HCO3- + H + ---H2CO3---H20 + CO2. So you are saying that bicarbonate buffers the water better than carbonate (that is a good trick same for kalk as both yield a much higher pH). No, as 1 eq of bicarbonate = 1 eq of CO2 and 1 eq of CO3, while 1 eq of carbonate = 1 eq of CO2 and 2 eq of carbonate. By the way, if you ever had a pH monitor that logs pH over time you would learn a quick lesson. When you add baking soda the pH falls at first, this does not happen with kalk. So, so much for your theory on pH and understanding it. By the way as I said before thousands of reefers and chemists use Limewater, that is RO/DI water with kalk for their top-off water. Please inform the world they are all wrong and you are right sssssssh. I guess all those articles on using Limewater, written and tested by chemists are all nuts but George has it all together. "Did I leave something out?" Yah, you left quite a few out. I guess that book you got does not mention them all and you cant' figure them out on your own. Many of them are in those articles I posted and I posted one above, just for giggles. It is not on your list is it ? "simple chemistry." YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND SIMPLE CHEMISTRY THAT IS THE ISSUE " If so, there is something wrong with the RO units they are using, or there is something in the source water that is getting past the membranes." That person is Dr Randy Holmes Farley, yah know, the one that wrote all those articles and has PhD in chemistry "No, I simply pointed out that YOU apparently don't understand what pH is measuring, or what the reactions are that go on in solutions" Really, please explain how a pH meter works and measures pH.....hint.... Nernst Equation When you finish that, please explain the pH measurement of how water reacts with Metacresol Purple and yields x pH and how Phenol Red reacts with water and yields x pH and what is the difference in chemistry between the two, which yields the same x pH. Make sure you show all your work . When you are all done there try to explain to everyone here how you can calculate the pH in your tank by knowing the CO2 and Alk concentrations....hint.....Buch-Park Equations. -- Boomer Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php Former US Army Bomb Technician (EOD) Member; IABTI, NATEODA, WEODF, ISEE & IPS If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up |
I forgot to mention that pH is not real, it is a false reading just like others are, be
they 4, 6, 7, 7, 8.2 or what ever. pH indicators and meters get confused, when there is nothing in the water other than H3O + and OH- -- Boomer Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php Former US Army Bomb Technician (EOD) Member; IABTI, NATEODA, WEODF, ISEE & IPS If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up "Boomer" wrote in message ... :A $ 400 pH meter : : -- : Boomer : : Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum : http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php : : : Former US Army Bomb Technician (EOD) : Member; IABTI, NATEODA, WEODF, ISEE & IPS : : If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up : : : "Pszemol" wrote in message ... :: "Boomer" wrote in message : ... :: Buy the way YOU may want to tell some reefers who's RO/DI water is a pH of 8 or 9 :: that it is a real value. So, you need to come to our Chem forum and explain that :: to Dr. Randy Holmes Farley who's RO/DI pH is 9 !!!!!. :: :: Just curious, how does he measure pH of RO/DI water to get such a high value ? : : |
I forgot sorry :-)
"My question is does anyone know of a computer program that I can use to make calculations of how much of each to add? " Being the wiz that you are you should be able to do this easily. Why a program ? You do know what molar values are correct and meq's. What would you do if you had to take a chemistry test and they asked you this ? You don't get to use a program, that is cheating. Ok, I'll shut one now for good, have a nice day really. -- Boomer Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php Former US Army Bomb Technician (EOD) Member; IABTI, NATEODA, WEODF, ISEE & IPS If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up "Boomer" wrote in message ... : You did not respond to many post in rational way. Ever time some tried to help you it came : a debate that they don't understand and you do.Often it is time to slap on to get their : attention. You can post all the equations you want from a text book and it dos not mean : you understand them. You seem to think that some how that is going to scare people into : thinking you know your stuff when you don't. If you took the time to read any of those : articles you would know how in correct you are. If you took the time on this newsgroup and : did a search on chemistry questions I've answered you would not be tooting all this : nonsense. The one that is not mature is you. Please go back and read my first post to you, : it was polite. Your reply was I don't know what I'm talking about and the an explanation : of what pH is. That in short ****ed me off. Here is just one example of where you are : confused; : : "On the other hand, Carbonate certainly is : in sodium bicarbonate. If you add calcium chloride and sodium bicarbonate to : your water, your result is calcium carbonate and sodium chloride. Now, in doing : this, you certainly aren't adding enough sodium chloride to the system wo hurt : anything. You are, however adding the needed calcium carbonate, which is what : you are trying to add in the first place. " : : Lets take this apart. : : "your result is calcium carbonate and sodium chloride" : : No you are not, put the book down. Calcium Carbonate is Calcite or Aragonite, you say you : are a geologists and that is a solid. Sodium Chloride is Halite also a solid. You DO NOT : want solids forming in a reef tank. You could not get Sodium Chloride to from in a reef : tank if you life depended on it. One would have to remove 90 % of the original volume of : water before it forms. When Calcite forms it pulls the Ca and CO3 out of the water, lowers : the Ca levels, the Alk and the pH crashes it has no or little buffers left. This is often : called a snowstorm and you don 't want that happening. It is quite common when reefers don : 't know what they are doing or make a mistakes when adding supplements. It is called : abiotic precipitation. You also see this on heaters.When you use a two part supplement, : such baking soda and calcium chloride you are adding to the N a + and Cl- ions : concentration. There have been studies on it if you looked at the articles I posted. It : time this will dis proportionally your salinity and create an ionic imbalance. kalk does : not do that, it is only OH - and Ca++ : : More : : "RO : water removes nearly everything from ther water except dissolved gases like CO2" : : RO water has virtually no CO2, that is why when it is exposed to ambient air the pH drops. : : "Pure water has a pH of 7 : because the concentrations of the H+ ion relative to OH- ion are balanced" : : No, actually it is a balance between H3O + and OH-. Go to a search engine and look up : Hydronium Ion : The pH scale based on a 1M HCl and 1 M of NaOH. What you don't understand is the pH : measurement has many interferences with things in the water or not in the water. Such is : the case with SEE ( Salt Effect Error), which means pH test kits and meters have : problems giving the right readings with high concentration of Cl- ions, such is the case : with seawater. : : "The measurement is not false" : : Please go to Senorex and tell Mike Russ, who is a pH expert and designs pH probes that he : does not know what he is taking about. : : "The OH- in : kalkwaser can combine with CO2 already in the water to produce HCO3- in a : reaction that takes place in the water. This is certainly true. But then the : HCO3- will combine with H+ in the water in a further reaction to make H2CO3 : (carbonic acid, which lowers pH). " : : Your sodium bicarbonate also picks up H + and yields H2CO3. H + + HCO3- -- H2CO3-. Your : pH will fall lower than the kalk as the kalk is generating HCO3 first, as the OH- combines : with CO2, which means it will handle and buffer the water better than HCO3, as it has to : go through one more step, just like sodium carbonate has one more step like kalk, CO3 + : H --- +HCO3- + H + ---H2CO3---H20 + CO2. So you are saying that bicarbonate buffers : the water better than carbonate (that is a good trick same for kalk as both yield a much : higher pH). No, as 1 eq of bicarbonate = 1 eq of CO2 and 1 eq of CO3, while 1 eq of : carbonate = 1 eq of CO2 and 2 eq of carbonate. By the way, if you ever had a pH monitor : that logs pH over time you would learn a quick lesson. When you add baking soda the pH : falls at first, this does not happen with kalk. So, so much for your theory on pH and : understanding it. : : : By the way as I said before thousands of reefers and chemists use Limewater, that is : RO/DI water with kalk for their top-off water. Please inform the world they are all wrong : and you are right sssssssh. I guess all those articles on using Limewater, written and : tested by chemists are all nuts but George has it all together. : : : "Did I leave something out?" : : Yah, you left quite a few out. I guess that book you got does not mention them all and you : cant' figure them out on your own. Many of them are in those articles I posted and I : posted one above, just for giggles. It is not on your list is it ? : : : "simple chemistry." : : YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND SIMPLE CHEMISTRY THAT IS THE ISSUE : : : " If so, there is something wrong with the RO units they are : using, or there is something in the source water that is getting past the : membranes." : : That person is Dr Randy Holmes Farley, yah know, the one that wrote all those articles and : has PhD in chemistry : : "No, I simply pointed out that YOU apparently don't understand what pH is : measuring, or what the reactions are that go on in solutions" : : Really, please explain how a pH meter works and measures pH.....hint.... Nernst Equation : : When you finish that, please explain the pH measurement of how water reacts with : Metacresol Purple and yields x pH and how Phenol Red reacts with water and yields x pH and : what is the difference in chemistry between the two, which yields the same x pH. : : Make sure you show all your work . : : When you are all done there try to explain to everyone here how you can calculate the pH : in your tank by knowing the CO2 and Alk concentrations....hint.....Buch-Park Equations. : : : : -- : Boomer : : Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum : http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php : : : Former US Army Bomb Technician (EOD) : Member; IABTI, NATEODA, WEODF, ISEE & IPS : : If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up : : : : |
"Boomer" wrote in message ...
I forgot to mention that pH is not real, it is a false reading just like others are, be they 4, 6, 7, 7, 8.2 or what ever. pH indicators and meters get confused, when there is nothing in the water other than H3O + and OH- I asked my question, because I happened to measure pH of my RO/DI water (conductance 1uS) and I am getting values around pH 6, which is kind of expected... What I use is Thermo Orion 525A with a standard Orion glass electrode, forgot the probe model number - 95002BN? Something like that... That is why I was surprised hearing about measurements of pH 9. Have you ever tried to figure out what in the water exaclty is confusing the glass probe to produce strange milivolts like these shown by the pH meter as pH 9? |
"Boomer" wrote in message ... I forgot sorry :-) "My question is does anyone know of a computer program that I can use to make calculations of how much of each to add? " Being the wiz that you are you should be able to do this easily. Why a program ? You do know what molar values are correct and meq's. What would you do if you had to take a chemistry test and they asked you this ? You don't get to use a program, that is cheating. Ok, I'll shut one now for good, have a nice day really. -- Boomer Dude. You know as well as I do that once you are out of college, most of the time, you refer to a table, graph, or a chart to get most of the answers you need. Chemists do it, physicists do it, engineers do it, bilogists do it, and so do geologists. Why repeat calculations that have already been done a zillion times? Its called "convenience". Call me lazy if that makes you feel any better. Just answer the question yes or no or go away. |
"Boomer" wrote in message ... I forgot to mention that pH is not real, it is a false reading just like others are, be they 4, 6, 7, 7, 8.2 or what ever. pH indicators and meters get confused, when there is nothing in the water other than H3O + and OH- -- Boomer If there is nothing but pure water, then the pH will be 7. Are you saying that everytime one's pH gets close to 7 on the pH scale, we should ask for a refund from the manufacturer of our probes and pH kits? So you are still insisting that RO water cannot be acidic, that it cannot contain CO2, and that it is all a myth of the pH meters? Hmmm. Some RO manufacturers think that you are full of bull****: http://www.spectrapure.com/support_faq.htm Aeration or de-gassification of RO product water is recommended for removal of carbon dioxide. Contact SpectraPure® for more information: . http://www.grundfos.com/web/grfosweb...256E2B0043DE88 All impurities will be rejected, but oxygen (O2) and CO2 that is a gas and smaller than the water molecule, will slip through the reverse osmosis membrane and affect the pH of the product water. http://www.roconn.com/troubleshooting.html |
You do ? I have never seen a calculator that does chemistry equations. I would love to
have one. C6H12N2 + 4HNO3 + 2NH4NO3 + 6(CH3CO)2O2 = ???????????????????????????? and how many mM of each you need to get ??????????? x amount of ????????????? Ok fun is over. For use a year ago a computer guy we know did two of them. One of them is now in version two and does more to include Mg. He just released a new visual-aid one after I had him make a change toe the NSW target area.You can use the first on reef tanks or FW, however, YOU CAN NOT type 0 Ca or 0 anything anywhere, it must be at least 1 for Ca. For Alk you can do 10's, as in .1 Still do not due the bicarb and chloride but the kalk http://home.comcast.net/~jdieck1/chem_calc3.html Visual Aid ..........You may not be able to see this if you are not running java scripting http://www.reefnerds.com/ChemPlot/ChemPlot.html If I go away who will correct your errors :-) -- Boomer Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php Former US Army Bomb Technician (EOD) Member; IABTI, NATEODA, WEODF, ISEE & IPS If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up |
"Have you ever tried to figure out what in the water exaclty is confusing the glass probe to produce strange milivolts like these shown by the pH meter as pH" No Pse and I don't know of anyone that cares. I could ask Mike Ross of Sensorex who designs pH and ORP probes -- Boomer Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php Former US Army Bomb Technician (EOD) Member; IABTI, NATEODA, WEODF, ISEE & IPS If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up "Pszemol" wrote in message ... : "Boomer" wrote in message ... : I forgot to mention that pH is not real, it is a false reading just like others are, be : they 4, 6, 7, 7, 8.2 or what ever. pH indicators and meters get confused, when there is : nothing in the water other than H3O + and OH- : : I asked my question, because I happened to measure pH of my RO/DI water : (conductance 1uS) and I am getting values around pH 6, which is kind of : expected... What I use is Thermo Orion 525A with a standard Orion glass : electrode, forgot the probe model number - 95002BN? Something like that... : : That is why I was surprised hearing about measurements of pH 9. : Have you ever tried to figure out what in the water exaclty is : confusing the glass probe to produce strange milivolts like these : shown by the pH meter as pH 9? |
"Boomer" wrote in message ... You do ? I have never seen a calculator that does chemistry equations. I would love to have one. C6H12N2 + 4HNO3 + 2NH4NO3 + 6(CH3CO)2O2 = ???????????????????????????? There are, in fact computer programs out there that do, in fact, calculate chemical reactions. This was my original question. I was asking where I could get a copy of one. and how many mM of each you need to get ??????????? x amount of ????????????? Ok fun is over. For use a year ago a computer guy we know did two of them. One of them is now in version two and does more to include Mg. He just released a new visual-aid one after I had him make a change toe the NSW target area.You can use the first on reef tanks or FW, however, YOU CAN NOT type 0 Ca or 0 anything anywhere, it must be at least 1 for Ca. For Alk you can do 10's, as in .1 Still do not due the bicarb and chloride but the kalk http://home.comcast.net/~jdieck1/chem_calc3.html This is similar to what I'm looking for, but I'd like to enter more parameters. Visual Aid ..........You may not be able to see this if you are not running java scripting http://www.reefnerds.com/ChemPlot/ChemPlot.html I like this one too. Thanks for the links. If I go away who will correct your errors :-) -- Boomer Oh, I'm sure that there are other trolls lurcking about. |
George you just like to get beat on don't you :-)
Lets take these apart now "If there is nothing but pure water, then the pH will be 7. Are you saying that everytime one's pH gets close to 7 on the pH scale, we should ask for a refund from the manufacturer of our probes and pH kits?" THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS ABSOLUTE PURE WATER WITH A pH OF 7. The water that come closest is triple distilled water. Just because a sample of water has a pH 7 does not mean it is pure. My tap water is 7 and comes from a big lake. Where did you come up with this pH 7 anyway ? pH is a function of temp, conductivity and mostly its CO2 and Alk. It goes like this, in Dick & Jane terms CO2 x Alk = pH. They are sometimes referred to as Buch-Park Equations. I have posted on them before here and extensively, do a search. You can have a pH of 7.00 with a low CO2 and Alk or a pH of 7.00 with a high CO2 and Alk, or for that mater a pH of 6, 8 ,9, pick one. I have them programmed in to my calculator, so when people ask what is my CO2 level if my pH is x and the Alk is y, as you can not measure CO2 in seawater with any test kit, even if they say you can. There are also tables on the net on CO2 but only FW. B-P Eq. are given in many seawater chemistry books and I have about 10 of them. I have talked to the worlds leading expert on the subject, Dr. Frank Milero, look his name up on a search engine. I also have his office phone number. Many test kits are inaccurate. Why do think people come here and to forums and say this; " I just bought another pH test kit.........MAD.......now I have three and one says pH 8.3, one 8.0 and the other 7.8, which one do I believe. It is a very, very common question George, same for other kits. Where did I say that as the meter/kit approaches pH 7 it is more inaccurate, no where. Quite dreaming things up :-) "So you are still insisting that RO water cannot be acidic, that it cannot contain CO2, and that it is all a myth of the pH meters? Hmmm. Some RO manufacturers think that you are full of bull****:" Where did I say RO water cannot be acidic George, no where, you just made that up, show me where ....a quote please.Where did I say RO water can not have CO2. Quite reading into things they will get you in trouble. It is well known that RO water can be acidic and is the reason behind names like "aggressive water", "reactive water". I never said RO water had a pH that was not acid now did I , please give a quote. If you are going to make claims then quote it. I said a kit or meter can give false readings arcos the board. The readings are not reliably. So you want to post Spectra Pure's website yeh. Where on that website does it say what the expected pH of RO water is OR WHERE on that website do they tell you about measuring the pH of RO water. I wonder why that is. So George, if you have a RO unit with a TFM, 65 PSI of water pressure, a recovery rate of 4:1 and the tap water has 10 ppm CO2. how much of that CO2 gets through the membrane all or some or what. One of the biggest problems for most with RO/DI water, is that it sits in a container and gets exposed to ambient CO2, which just races into the water and lowers the pH "Aeration or de-gassification of RO product water is recommended for removal of carbon dioxide" Well, I would hope so, especially that sitting I said this "RO water has virtually no CO2", that is why when it is exposed to ambient air the pH drops." That was in error somewhat, as RO water CO2 content, is a function of the tap water CO2 level and how much gets through the membrane. Also, "virtually no CO2" does not mean it can't lower the pH, as it does not take much with about 0 buffers. "All impurities will be rejected, but oxygen (O2) and CO2 that is a gas and smaller than the water molecule, will slip through the reverse osmosis membrane and affect the pH of the product water." Not all of the CO2 and O2 slips by and...... O2 has NO EFFECT on pH ....PERIOD Did you see this on your own link "Bitter/astringent - excess CO2 in RO water lowers pH", which means not all RO has excess CO2 From George Slusarczuk "Hello Michael, You are absolutely right! Even among chemists it is a very little known fact, that the pH of distilled (and RO) water can not be measured. Let me correct that: It CAN be measured, but the value is meaningless! (That does NOT mean that distilled water has "no pH" -- just that we can not measure it using methods available to a hobbyist -- and that includes "research grade" electronic pH meters!) I know of only one commonly available reference (the ASTM volume on water) where this is spelled out in plain English (if only in a footnote). I will not go into the technical reasons for it. The pH of RO water probably will not be the same as that of starting water, because the exclusion of ions by the RO membrane is not uniform across the periodic table and the residual ionic equilibrium will be different from that in the source water. But, as you mentioned, the RO water is not buffered, so it really does not matter: anything added to it will change its pH. "You are, obviously, right that the dissociation constant of pure water is 10^-14. But do you think that a *hobbyist* can determine such a dissociation constant in the fish-room? I don't think so! As I mentioned in my original post, The ASTM volume on water (I think that it is volume 18 A & B, but am not certain) in the section on measuring pH, gives that warning about measuring pH of pure water. Right now I don't have access to that work, so can not cite the exact page reference. The classic reference is Clark's "Determination of Hydrogen Ions", from the 1920's. If we take a medium-grade distilled water, resistivity of, say, 1 megohm or better, then in a colorimetric determination one drop of an indicator solution will be the dominant source of hydrogen ions. You will get a measurement, but it will be that of the resulting diluted indicator solution, not of the original water. An electronic pH meter is just a high impedance Volt meter. If the resistance of the medium is too high, and one is using a *glass* electrode, (not quinhydrone/sat. calomel half-cells) -- the reading will drift -- because the instrument can not reliably measure the 59 mV/decade that it is required to do, to measure pH. This is easily provable, if one has access to *fresh* (without dissolved CO2) 10 megohm (or better) water then the drift is very obvious. (The quinhydrone/sat. calomel half-cells are not something that a hobbyist would want to try either.) I know of one way to circumvent this problem but, again, that is not something a hobbyist should try in his/her fishroom (because of danger of contamination and subsequent false measurements): Per 25 mL of sample add 1 drop of a 10 mM KCl solution of 99.9999% (6N) purity, prepared in an acid-washed Teflon volumetric flask, using 10 megohm (or better) water. It will lower the resistivity sufficiently, that a "research grade" (very high impedance) pH meter, equipped with a quality glass electrode, will be able to measure it with some assurance of accuracy and precision. Best, George There are George special and expensive pH sensor probes for measuring RO/DI water. Do you think that there would be such a thing if one could use a normal test kit or pH meter ??? http://www.rodisystems.com/PDF%20fil...odel%20105.pdf Boomer Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php Former US Army Bomb Technician (EOD) Member; IABTI, NATEODA, WEODF, ISEE & IPS If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up |
"There are, in fact computer programs out there that do, in fact, calculate
chemical reactions. This was my original question. I was asking where I could get a copy of one." I have never seen one yet but that doe not mean there's not one. "Oh, I'm sure that there are other trolls lurcking about." That is a bad word here and is the reason why many have left this NG -- Boomer Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php Former US Army Bomb Technician (EOD) Member; IABTI, NATEODA, WEODF, ISEE & IPS If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up "George" wrote in message news:gQFce.37076$NU4.25483@attbi_s22... : : "Boomer" wrote in message : ... : You do ? I have never seen a calculator that does chemistry equations. I would : love to : have one. : : C6H12N2 + 4HNO3 + 2NH4NO3 + 6(CH3CO)2O2 = ???????????????????????????? : : There are, in fact computer programs out there that do, in fact, calculate : chemical reactions. This was my original question. I was asking where I could : get a copy of one. : : and how many mM of each you need to get ??????????? x amount of ????????????? : : Ok fun is over. For use a year ago a computer guy we know did two of them. One : of them is : now in version two and does more to include Mg. He just released a new : visual-aid one : after I had him make a change toe the NSW target area.You can use the first on : reef tanks : or FW, however, YOU CAN NOT type 0 Ca or 0 anything anywhere, it must be at : least 1 for : Ca. For Alk you can do 10's, as in .1 Still do not due the bicarb and : chloride but the : kalk : : http://home.comcast.net/~jdieck1/chem_calc3.html : : This is similar to what I'm looking for, but I'd like to enter more parameters. : : : Visual Aid ..........You may not be able to see this if you are not running : java scripting : http://www.reefnerds.com/ChemPlot/ChemPlot.html : : I like this one too. Thanks for the links. : : If I go away who will correct your errors :-) : -- : Boomer : : Oh, I'm sure that there are other trolls lurcking about. : : |
I forgot, getting old
We have been helping Randy , collecting data and such, on a new article, it will be out soon, it is on RO/DI units and the chemistry of them. Later, don't know when yet, we have been collecting stuff for a long time but there will be one out when ever, on pH test kits and their chemistry -- Boomer Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php Former US Army Bomb Technician (EOD) Member; IABTI, NATEODA, WEODF, ISEE & IPS If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up "Boomer" wrote in message ... : George you just like to get beat on don't you :-) : : Lets take these apart now : : "If there is nothing but pure water, then the pH will be 7. Are you saying that : everytime one's pH gets close to 7 on the pH scale, we should ask for a refund : from the manufacturer of our probes and pH kits?" : : THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS ABSOLUTE PURE WATER WITH A pH OF 7. The water that come closest : is triple distilled water. Just because a sample of water has a pH 7 does not mean it is : pure. My tap water is 7 and comes from a big lake. Where did you come up with this pH 7 : anyway ? pH is a function of temp, conductivity and mostly its CO2 and Alk. It goes like : this, in Dick & Jane terms CO2 x Alk = pH. They are sometimes referred to as Buch-Park : Equations. I have posted on them before here and extensively, do a search. You can have a : pH of 7.00 with a low CO2 and Alk or a pH of 7.00 with a high CO2 and Alk, or for that : mater a pH of 6, 8 ,9, pick one. I have them programmed in to my calculator, so when : people ask what is my CO2 level if my pH is x and the Alk is y, as you can not measure CO2 : in seawater with any test kit, even if they say you can. There are also tables on the net : on CO2 but only FW. B-P Eq. are given in many seawater chemistry books and I have about 10 : of them. I have talked to the worlds leading expert on the subject, Dr. Frank Milero, look : his name up on a search engine. I also have his office phone number. : : Many test kits are inaccurate. Why do think people come here and to forums and say this; " : I just bought another pH test kit.........MAD.......now I have three and one says pH 8.3, : one 8.0 and the other 7.8, which one do I believe. It is a very, very common question : George, same for other kits. Where did I say that as the meter/kit approaches pH 7 it is : more inaccurate, no where. Quite dreaming things up :-) : : : "So you are still insisting that RO water cannot be acidic, that it cannot : contain CO2, and that it is all a myth of the pH meters? Hmmm. Some RO : manufacturers think that you are full of bull****:" : : Where did I say RO water cannot be acidic George, no where, you just made that up, show me : where ....a quote please.Where did I say RO water can not have CO2. Quite reading into : things they will get you in trouble. It is well known that RO water can be acidic and is : the reason behind names like "aggressive water", "reactive water". I never said RO water : had a pH that was not acid now did I , please give a quote. If you are going to make : claims then quote it. I said a kit or meter can give false readings arcos the board. The : readings are not reliably. So you want to post Spectra Pure's website yeh. Where on that : website does it say what the expected pH of RO water is OR WHERE on that website do they : tell you about measuring the pH of RO water. I wonder why that is. : : So George, if you have a RO unit with a TFM, 65 PSI of water pressure, a recovery rate of : 4:1 and the tap water has 10 ppm CO2. how much of that CO2 gets through the membrane all : or some or what. One of the biggest problems for most with RO/DI water, is that it sits in : a container and gets exposed to ambient CO2, which just races into the water and lowers : the pH : : "Aeration or de-gassification of RO product water is recommended for removal of : carbon dioxide" : : Well, I would hope so, especially that sitting : : I said this "RO water has virtually no CO2", that is why when it is exposed to ambient air : the pH drops." That was in error somewhat, as RO water CO2 content, is a function of the : tap water CO2 level and how much gets through the membrane. Also, "virtually no CO2" does : not mean it can't lower the pH, as it does not take much with about 0 buffers. : : "All impurities will be rejected, but oxygen (O2) and CO2 that is a gas and : smaller than the water molecule, will slip through the reverse osmosis membrane : and affect the pH of the product water." : : Not all of the CO2 and O2 slips by and...... O2 has NO EFFECT on pH ....PERIOD : : Did you see this on your own link "Bitter/astringent - excess CO2 in RO water lowers pH", : which means not all RO has excess CO2 : : : : From George Slusarczuk : : "Hello Michael, : : You are absolutely right! Even among chemists it is a very little known : fact, that the pH of distilled (and RO) water can not be measured. Let : me correct that: It CAN be measured, but the value is meaningless! (That : does NOT mean that distilled water has "no pH" -- just that we can not : measure it using methods available to a hobbyist -- and that includes : "research grade" electronic pH meters!) : : I know of only one commonly available reference (the ASTM volume on : water) where this is spelled out in plain English (if only in a : footnote). I will not go into the technical reasons for it. : : The pH of RO water probably will not be the same as that of starting : water, because the exclusion of ions by the RO membrane is not uniform : across the periodic table and the residual ionic equilibrium will be : different from that in the source water. But, as you mentioned, the RO : water is not buffered, so it really does not matter: anything added to : it will change its pH. : : "You are, obviously, right that the dissociation constant of pure water : is 10^-14. But do you think that a *hobbyist* can determine such a : dissociation constant in the fish-room? I don't think so! : : As I mentioned in my original post, The ASTM volume on water (I think : that it is volume 18 A & B, but am not certain) in the section on : measuring pH, gives that warning about measuring pH of pure water. Right : now I don't have access to that work, so can not cite the exact page : reference. The classic reference is Clark's "Determination of Hydrogen : Ions", from the 1920's. : : If we take a medium-grade distilled water, resistivity of, say, 1 megohm : or better, then in a colorimetric determination one drop of an indicator : solution will be the dominant source of hydrogen ions. You will get a : measurement, but it will be that of the resulting diluted indicator : solution, not of the original water. : : An electronic pH meter is just a high impedance Volt meter. If the : resistance of the medium is too high, and one is using a *glass* : electrode, (not quinhydrone/sat. calomel half-cells) -- the reading will : drift -- because the instrument can not reliably measure the 59 : mV/decade that it is required to do, to measure pH. This is easily : provable, if one has access to *fresh* (without dissolved CO2) 10 megohm : (or better) water then the drift is very obvious. (The quinhydrone/sat. : calomel half-cells are not something that a hobbyist would want to try : either.) : : I know of one way to circumvent this problem but, again, that is not : something a hobbyist should try in his/her fishroom (because of danger : of contamination and subsequent false measurements): Per 25 mL of sample : add 1 drop of a 10 mM KCl solution of 99.9999% (6N) purity, prepared in : an acid-washed Teflon volumetric flask, using 10 megohm (or better) : water. It will lower the resistivity sufficiently, that a "research : grade" (very high impedance) pH meter, equipped with a quality glass : electrode, will be able to measure it with some assurance of accuracy : and precision. : : : Best, George : : : There are George special and expensive pH sensor probes for measuring RO/DI water. Do you : think that there would be such a thing if one could use a normal test kit or pH meter ??? : : http://www.rodisystems.com/PDF%20fil...odel%20105.pdf : : : : Boomer : : Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum : http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php : : : Former US Army Bomb Technician (EOD) : Member; IABTI, NATEODA, WEODF, ISEE & IPS : : If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up : : : |
"Boomer" wrote in message ... George you just like to get beat on don't you :-) Lets take these apart now "If there is nothing but pure water, then the pH will be 7. Are you saying that everytime one's pH gets close to 7 on the pH scale, we should ask for a refund from the manufacturer of our probes and pH kits?" THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS ABSOLUTE PURE WATER WITH A pH OF 7. The water that come closest is triple distilled water. Just because a sample of water has a pH 7 does not mean it is pure. My tap water is 7 and comes from a big lake. Where did you come up with this pH 7 anyway ? pH is a function of temp, conductivity and mostly its CO2 and Alk. It goes like this, in Dick & Jane terms CO2 x Alk = pH. They are sometimes referred to as Buch-Park Equations. I have posted on them before here and extensively, do a search. You can have a pH of 7.00 with a low CO2 and Alk or a pH of 7.00 with a high CO2 and Alk, or for that mater a pH of 6, 8 ,9, pick one. I have them programmed in to my calculator, so when people ask what is my CO2 level if my pH is x and the Alk is y, as you can not measure CO2 in seawater with any test kit, even if they say you can. There are also tables on the net on CO2 but only FW. B-P Eq. are given in many seawater chemistry books and I have about 10 of them. I have talked to the worlds leading expert on the subject, Dr. Frank Milero, look his name up on a search engine. I also have his office phone number. Many test kits are inaccurate. Why do think people come here and to forums and say this; " I just bought another pH test kit.........MAD.......now I have three and one says pH 8.3, one 8.0 and the other 7.8, which one do I believe. It is a very, very common question George, same for other kits. Where did I say that as the meter/kit approaches pH 7 it is more inaccurate, no where. Quite dreaming things up :-) I realize that pH kits are innacurate. That is not the issue here. You said that pH is not real. If that were the case, then why bother ever measuring it? "So you are still insisting that RO water cannot be acidic, that it cannot contain CO2, and that it is all a myth of the pH meters? Hmmm. Some RO manufacturers think that you are full of bull****:" Where did I say RO water cannot be acidic George, no where, you just made that up, show me where ....a quote please.Where did I say RO water can not have CO2. I posted the fact that my RO water had a pH reading of 4.5. Do you remember your response, or do I have to juggle your memory? You said that "You CAN NOT measure the pH of RO/D water, there is nothing in the water to measure the pH. The readings are false, until it has some "salts" in it." And I've responded here that that is simply bonk, since RO water certainly does have something in it, especially if the source water contains CO2 in solution. Even RO manufacturers report that the pH of RO water is often low (i.e., 4-5). They do not say that the readings are false. They DO suggest that the reason for this is that CO2 in the source water will pass through the membrane, and that because there are no buffers in the water, the water will have a low pH. I've posted links to manufacturers web sites where they state this fact. Then you posted that RO water has a pH of 9 without ever explaining why this would be if all of the "salts" have been removed. If I was getting pH readings of 4.5 on time, and a pH of 9 another time, I would definitely believe that my pH measurements were way out of line. This has not been the case. My readings have been very consistent, regardless of whether I measure my salt water in my aquarium, the water from my tap, or the RO water. I can measure them repeatedly and get within 0.2 of the exact same readings every time. Quite reading into things they will get you in trouble. It is well known that RO water can be acidic and is the reason behind names like "aggressive water", "reactive water". I never said RO water had a pH that was not acid now did I , please give a quote. If you are going to make claims then quote it. I said a kit or meter can give false readings arcos the board. The readings are not reliably. So you want to post Spectra Pure's website yeh. Where on that website does it say what the expected pH of RO water is OR WHERE on that website do they tell you about measuring the pH of RO water. I wonder why that is. So George, if you have a RO unit with a TFM, 65 PSI of water pressure, a recovery rate of 4:1 and the tap water has 10 ppm CO2. how much of that CO2 gets through the membrane all or some or what. One of the biggest problems for most with RO/DI water, is that it sits in a container and gets exposed to ambient CO2, which just races into the water and lowers the pH I can and have taken readings as the water is being made up and still get 4.5-5.0. "Aeration or de-gassification of RO product water is recommended for removal of carbon dioxide" Well, I would hope so, especially that sitting I said this "RO water has virtually no CO2", that is why when it is exposed to ambient air the pH drops." That was in error somewhat, as RO water CO2 content, is a function of the tap water CO2 level and how much gets through the membrane. Also, "virtually no CO2" does not mean it can't lower the pH, as it does not take much with about 0 buffers. Ahem. This is what I said about 20 posts back. "All impurities will be rejected, but oxygen (O2) and CO2 that is a gas and smaller than the water molecule, will slip through the reverse osmosis membrane and affect the pH of the product water." Not all of the CO2 and O2 slips by and...... O2 has NO EFFECT on pH ....PERIOD Did you see this on your own link "Bitter/astringent - excess CO2 in RO water lowers pH", which means not all RO has excess CO2 Why the hell would I care if other RO doesn't have excess CO2? And whether there is "excess" or not is not an issue. If there are no buffers, but CO2 is present, the pH will be low, which is the case with MY unit, and what I've been saying all though this thread. From George Slusarczuk "Hello Michael, You are absolutely right! Even among chemists it is a very little known fact, that the pH of distilled (and RO) water can not be measured. Let me correct that: It CAN be measured, but the value is meaningless! (That does NOT mean that distilled water has "no pH" -- just that we can not measure it using methods available to a hobbyist -- and that includes "research grade" electronic pH meters!) http://www.finishing.com/258/08.shtml Here is some theory- H2O molecules have infinite resistance. It is ions that cause solutions to be conductive. Even perfectly pure water has some ions because of the equillibrium between H2O, H+ (ions), and OH- (ions). The concentration of the ions H+ and OH- in perfect water is 0.0000001 molar at 25º C. The pH of this water is exactly 7. |
"Boomer" wrote in message ...
"Have you ever tried to figure out what in the water exaclty is confusing the glass probe to produce strange milivolts like these shown by the pH meter as pH" No Pse and I don't know of anyone that cares. I could ask Mike Ross of Sensorex who designs pH and ORP probes If you dont forget, please do ask :-) p.s. is this the same guy Ross electrodes from Thermo Orion took name from ? |
Very nice read guys!!!
George - Sounds like Boomer is already using large lag bolts to close your coffin on this subject, why are you begging for him to weld it shut also? Your not Houdini reincarnate are you? I'm seeing what he is saying as measuring your RO water will give you meaningless measurements so there is not really a point in doing it hence not a stable place to make water chemistry decisions from, especially the sort you mention. Though I could be wrong and he may be just exercising our minds and I'm confused. Boomer- If I'm not still in your killfile... Cantankerous as ever, keep it up! :-) My question- Could either of you explain the reasoning why many recommend using a balanced additive to RO or RO/DI water prior to the addition of salt while others say do it after? Are there chemical reaction reasons one way is better? Thanks again, -- -- "George" wrote in message news:KLGce.29590$c24.28180@attbi_s72... "Boomer" wrote in message ... George you just like to get beat on don't you :-) Lets take these apart now "If there is nothing but pure water, then the pH will be 7. Are you saying that everytime one's pH gets close to 7 on the pH scale, we should ask for a refund from the manufacturer of our probes and pH kits?" THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS ABSOLUTE PURE WATER WITH A pH OF 7. The water that come closest is triple distilled water. Just because a sample of water has a pH 7 does not mean it is pure. My tap water is 7 and comes from a big lake. Where did you come up with this pH 7 anyway ? pH is a function of temp, conductivity and mostly its CO2 and Alk. It goes like this, in Dick & Jane terms CO2 x Alk = pH. They are sometimes referred to as Buch-Park Equations. I have posted on them before here and extensively, do a search. You can have a pH of 7.00 with a low CO2 and Alk or a pH of 7.00 with a high CO2 and Alk, or for that mater a pH of 6, 8 ,9, pick one. I have them programmed in to my calculator, so when people ask what is my CO2 level if my pH is x and the Alk is y, as you can not measure CO2 in seawater with any test kit, even if they say you can. There are also tables on the net on CO2 but only FW. B-P Eq. are given in many seawater chemistry books and I have about 10 of them. I have talked to the worlds leading expert on the subject, Dr. Frank Milero, look his name up on a search engine. I also have his office phone number. Many test kits are inaccurate. Why do think people come here and to forums and say this; " I just bought another pH test kit.........MAD.......now I have three and one says pH 8.3, one 8.0 and the other 7.8, which one do I believe. It is a very, very common question George, same for other kits. Where did I say that as the meter/kit approaches pH 7 it is more inaccurate, no where. Quite dreaming things up :-) I realize that pH kits are innacurate. That is not the issue here. You said that pH is not real. If that were the case, then why bother ever measuring it? "So you are still insisting that RO water cannot be acidic, that it cannot contain CO2, and that it is all a myth of the pH meters? Hmmm. Some RO manufacturers think that you are full of bull****:" Where did I say RO water cannot be acidic George, no where, you just made that up, show me where ....a quote please.Where did I say RO water can not have CO2. I posted the fact that my RO water had a pH reading of 4.5. Do you remember your response, or do I have to juggle your memory? You said that "You CAN NOT measure the pH of RO/D water, there is nothing in the water to measure the pH. The readings are false, until it has some "salts" in it." And I've responded here that that is simply bonk, since RO water certainly does have something in it, especially if the source water contains CO2 in solution. Even RO manufacturers report that the pH of RO water is often low (i.e., 4-5). They do not say that the readings are false. They DO suggest that the reason for this is that CO2 in the source water will pass through the membrane, and that because there are no buffers in the water, the water will have a low pH. I've posted links to manufacturers web sites where they state this fact. Then you posted that RO water has a pH of 9 without ever explaining why this would be if all of the "salts" have been removed. If I was getting pH readings of 4.5 on time, and a pH of 9 another time, I would definitely believe that my pH measurements were way out of line. This has not been the case. My readings have been very consistent, regardless of whether I measure my salt water in my aquarium, the water from my tap, or the RO water. I can measure them repeatedly and get within 0.2 of the exact same readings every time. Quite reading into things they will get you in trouble. It is well known that RO water can be acidic and is the reason behind names like "aggressive water", "reactive water". I never said RO water had a pH that was not acid now did I , please give a quote. If you are going to make claims then quote it. I said a kit or meter can give false readings arcos the board. The readings are not reliably. So you want to post Spectra Pure's website yeh. Where on that website does it say what the expected pH of RO water is OR WHERE on that website do they tell you about measuring the pH of RO water. I wonder why that is. So George, if you have a RO unit with a TFM, 65 PSI of water pressure, a recovery rate of 4:1 and the tap water has 10 ppm CO2. how much of that CO2 gets through the membrane all or some or what. One of the biggest problems for most with RO/DI water, is that it sits in a container and gets exposed to ambient CO2, which just races into the water and lowers the pH I can and have taken readings as the water is being made up and still get 4.5-5.0. "Aeration or de-gassification of RO product water is recommended for removal of carbon dioxide" Well, I would hope so, especially that sitting I said this "RO water has virtually no CO2", that is why when it is exposed to ambient air the pH drops." That was in error somewhat, as RO water CO2 content, is a function of the tap water CO2 level and how much gets through the membrane. Also, "virtually no CO2" does not mean it can't lower the pH, as it does not take much with about 0 buffers. Ahem. This is what I said about 20 posts back. "All impurities will be rejected, but oxygen (O2) and CO2 that is a gas and smaller than the water molecule, will slip through the reverse osmosis membrane and affect the pH of the product water." Not all of the CO2 and O2 slips by and...... O2 has NO EFFECT on pH ....PERIOD Did you see this on your own link "Bitter/astringent - excess CO2 in RO water lowers pH", which means not all RO has excess CO2 Why the hell would I care if other RO doesn't have excess CO2? And whether there is "excess" or not is not an issue. If there are no buffers, but CO2 is present, the pH will be low, which is the case with MY unit, and what I've been saying all though this thread. From George Slusarczuk "Hello Michael, You are absolutely right! Even among chemists it is a very little known fact, that the pH of distilled (and RO) water can not be measured. Let me correct that: It CAN be measured, but the value is meaningless! (That does NOT mean that distilled water has "no pH" -- just that we can not measure it using methods available to a hobbyist -- and that includes "research grade" electronic pH meters!) http://www.finishing.com/258/08.shtml Here is some theory- H2O molecules have infinite resistance. It is ions that cause solutions to be conductive. Even perfectly pure water has some ions because of the equillibrium between H2O, H+ (ions), and OH- (ions). The concentration of the ions H+ and OH- in perfect water is 0.0000001 molar at 25º C. The pH of this water is exactly 7. |
That is what Randy asked me. No, Ross probes are part of Orion a competitor of Sensorex
-- Boomer Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php Former US Army Bomb Technician (EOD) Member; IABTI, NATEODA, WEODF, ISEE & IPS If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up "Pszemol" wrote in message ... : "Boomer" wrote in message ... : : "Have you ever tried to figure out what in the water exaclty is : confusing the glass probe to produce strange milivolts like these : shown by the pH meter as pH" : : No Pse and I don't know of anyone that cares. I could ask Mike Ross : of Sensorex who designs pH and ORP probes : : If you dont forget, please do ask :-) : : p.s. is this the same guy Ross electrodes from Thermo Orion took name from ? |
George there is no sense in continuing this, you seem to refuse anything and everything,
which tells me you know you are incorrect but are trying to make an attempt to make yourself look good for the guys here. George before you post links you should read them, that way you won't look so bad. "It is nearly impossible to measure the pH of ultrapure water" "You can not measure pH of ultrapure water with a pH sensor. There is not enough conductivity for the sensor to work" "First, pH of ultra pure water is difficult to do. There are some special techniques that can be used. " THE SAME FOR RO/DI water -- Boomer Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php Former US Army Bomb Technician (EOD) Member; IABTI, NATEODA, WEODF, ISEE & IPS If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up "George" wrote in message news:KLGce.29590$c24.28180@attbi_s72... : : "Boomer" wrote in message : ... : George you just like to get beat on don't you :-) : : Lets take these apart now : : "If there is nothing but pure water, then the pH will be 7. Are you saying : that : everytime one's pH gets close to 7 on the pH scale, we should ask for a refund : from the manufacturer of our probes and pH kits?" : : THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS ABSOLUTE PURE WATER WITH A pH OF 7. The water that : come closest : is triple distilled water. Just because a sample of water has a pH 7 does not : mean it is : pure. My tap water is 7 and comes from a big lake. Where did you come up with : this pH 7 : anyway ? pH is a function of temp, conductivity and mostly its CO2 and Alk. It : goes like : this, in Dick & Jane terms CO2 x Alk = pH. They are sometimes referred to as : Buch-Park : Equations. I have posted on them before here and extensively, do a search. You : can have a : pH of 7.00 with a low CO2 and Alk or a pH of 7.00 with a high CO2 and Alk, or : for that : mater a pH of 6, 8 ,9, pick one. I have them programmed in to my calculator, : so when : people ask what is my CO2 level if my pH is x and the Alk is y, as you can not : measure CO2 : in seawater with any test kit, even if they say you can. There are also tables : on the net : on CO2 but only FW. B-P Eq. are given in many seawater chemistry books and I : have about 10 : of them. I have talked to the worlds leading expert on the subject, Dr. Frank : Milero, look : his name up on a search engine. I also have his office phone number. : : Many test kits are inaccurate. Why do think people come here and to forums and : say this; " : I just bought another pH test kit.........MAD.......now I have three and one : says pH 8.3, : one 8.0 and the other 7.8, which one do I believe. It is a very, very common : question : George, same for other kits. Where did I say that as the meter/kit approaches : pH 7 it is : more inaccurate, no where. Quite dreaming things up :-) : : : I realize that pH kits are innacurate. That is not the issue here. You said : that pH is not real. If that were the case, then why bother ever measuring it? : : "So you are still insisting that RO water cannot be acidic, that it cannot : contain CO2, and that it is all a myth of the pH meters? Hmmm. Some RO : manufacturers think that you are full of bull****:" : : Where did I say RO water cannot be acidic George, no where, you just made that : up, show me : where ....a quote please.Where did I say RO water can not have CO2. : : I posted the fact that my RO water had a pH reading of 4.5. Do you remember : your response, or do I have to juggle your memory? You said that "You CAN NOT : measure the pH of RO/D water, there is nothing in the water to measure the pH. : The readings are false, until it has some "salts" in it." And I've responded : here that that is simply bonk, since RO water certainly does have something in : it, especially if the source water contains CO2 in solution. Even RO : manufacturers report that the pH of RO water is often low (i.e., 4-5). They do : not say that the readings are false. They DO suggest that the reason for this : is that CO2 in the source water will pass through the membrane, and that because : there are no buffers in the water, the water will have a low pH. I've posted : links to manufacturers web sites where they state this fact. Then you posted : that RO water has a pH of 9 without ever explaining why this would be if all of : the "salts" have been removed. If I was getting pH readings of 4.5 on time, and : a pH of 9 another time, I would definitely believe that my pH measurements were : way out of line. This has not been the case. My readings have been very : consistent, regardless of whether I measure my salt water in my aquarium, the : water from my tap, or the RO water. I can measure them repeatedly and get : within 0.2 of the exact same readings every time. : : Quite reading into : things they will get you in trouble. It is well known that RO water can be : acidic and is : the reason behind names like "aggressive water", "reactive water". I never : said RO water : had a pH that was not acid now did I , please give a quote. If you are going : to make : claims then quote it. I said a kit or meter can give false readings arcos the : board. The : readings are not reliably. So you want to post Spectra Pure's website yeh. : Where on that : website does it say what the expected pH of RO water is OR WHERE on that : website do they : tell you about measuring the pH of RO water. I wonder why that is. : : So George, if you have a RO unit with a TFM, 65 PSI of water pressure, a : recovery rate of : 4:1 and the tap water has 10 ppm CO2. how much of that CO2 gets through the : membrane all : or some or what. One of the biggest problems for most with RO/DI water, is : that it sits in : a container and gets exposed to ambient CO2, which just races into the water : and lowers : the pH : : I can and have taken readings as the water is being made up and still get : 4.5-5.0. : : "Aeration or de-gassification of RO product water is recommended for removal : of : carbon dioxide" : : Well, I would hope so, especially that sitting : : I said this "RO water has virtually no CO2", that is why when it is exposed to : ambient air : the pH drops." That was in error somewhat, as RO water CO2 content, is a : function of the : tap water CO2 level and how much gets through the membrane. Also, "virtually : no CO2" does : not mean it can't lower the pH, as it does not take much with about 0 buffers. : : Ahem. This is what I said about 20 posts back. : : "All impurities will be rejected, but oxygen (O2) and CO2 that is a gas and : smaller than the water molecule, will slip through the reverse osmosis : membrane : and affect the pH of the product water." : : Not all of the CO2 and O2 slips by and...... O2 has NO EFFECT on pH ....PERIOD : : Did you see this on your own link "Bitter/astringent - excess CO2 in RO water : lowers pH", : which means not all RO has excess CO2 : : Why the hell would I care if other RO doesn't have excess CO2? And whether : there is "excess" or not is not an issue. If there are no buffers, but CO2 is : present, the pH will be low, which is the case with MY unit, and what I've been : saying all though this thread. : : : : From George Slusarczuk : : "Hello Michael, : : You are absolutely right! Even among chemists it is a very little known : fact, that the pH of distilled (and RO) water can not be measured. Let : me correct that: It CAN be measured, but the value is meaningless! (That : does NOT mean that distilled water has "no pH" -- just that we can not : measure it using methods available to a hobbyist -- and that includes : "research grade" electronic pH meters!) : : http://www.finishing.com/258/08.shtml : : Here is some theory- H2O molecules have infinite resistance. It is ions that : cause solutions to be conductive. Even perfectly pure water has some ions : because of the equillibrium between H2O, H+ (ions), and OH- (ions). The : concentration of the ions H+ and OH- in perfect water is 0.0000001 molar at 25º : C. The pH of this water is exactly 7. : : |
Ben, I don't ever have anyone in my kill file, don't believe in it :-) I don't even
remember why you would be there if I had one... lol The balanced thing Ben is just hogwash, to get you to buy something. I think George is just another troll. I see George likes to argue allot, and not just me, hence a troll. In one of his posts he even used the word he was a troll. Just for ****s and giggles more of Georges' nonsense "I think he meant malachite, which is a water-soluble form of copper carbonate." He is getting his heavy molecular weight organic-inorganic dyes, actually a triphenylmethane dye, use as a therapeutic agent. It is called Malachite or Malachite Green and he is getting it mixed up with Malachite, a cooper carbonate hydroxide mineral. Even didn't get that part right. Yet, he claims to have a master degree in geology ... lol It is called malachite only because it has a similar color to Malachite the mineral. It has 000000000 cooper in it. But George wants to play chemist and geologist ..lol Now if George had any smarts at all, he would e-mail a real manufacture of RO units and ask them the question, such as Dupont or Osmonics, who make RO's. The ones people buy are just companies that assemble parts, like Spectra-Pure, they don 't really make anything. He could also come to our chem forum and ask Mr. Water Quality......GUESS Ben what he makes ???????????? -- Boomer Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php Former US Army Bomb Technician (EOD) Member; IABTI, NATEODA, WEODF, ISEE & IPS If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up |
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