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Clown Loaches (Not acting normally?)
So I put these Clown Loaches in the tank 2 days ago, 3 of them, to eat the
snails. I was told per my previous posts to use three because they like the company of other Loaches and that they would eat the snails. Per the Petsmart instructions I am feeding them dried shrimp. So far they dont seem to be very active, they found tier holes inside of a few different pieces of tank decoration (Shells) and they pretty much stay there doing nothing. They definitly arent eating the snails and they just lay around doing nothing and dont interact at all. I have a 20 gallon tank with 18 fish (8 of them are Neon Tetras), Gouramis, 3 Molly's, the Clown Loaches and others. The tanks strip readings are all in the normal range and the other fish are VERY active. Tank water temp is 81 degrees F. |
Clown Loaches (Not acting normally?)
On Wed, 28 Dec 2005 14:17:08 GMT, "JeffinMississippi"
wrote: So I put these Clown Loaches in the tank 2 days ago, 3 of them, to eat the snails. I was told per my previous posts to use three because they like the company of other Loaches and that they would eat the snails. Per the Petsmart instructions I am feeding them dried shrimp. So far they dont seem to be very active, they found tier holes inside of a few different pieces of tank decoration (Shells) and they pretty much stay there doing nothing. They definitly arent eating the snails and they just lay around doing nothing and dont interact at all. I have a 20 gallon tank with 18 fish (8 of them are Neon Tetras), Gouramis, 3 Molly's, the Clown Loaches and others. The tanks strip readings are all in the normal range and the other fish are VERY active. Tank water temp is 81 degrees F. I have about 12 Clowns in 3 tanks. Their behavior is different in the different tanks. Their behavior has also changed over the last 2 1/2 years. My tanks are kept at about 77F. I have 2 Clowns in a 10 gallon tank. One rarely leaves a large ornament. Its companion is out much more often. None of the tanks that have Clowns have any snails. Over the years none have survived. However, given the special diet you offer of dried shrimp, why should they eat snails? I would stop the special feeding for awhile. Don't worry, they will survive and maybe the snails won't. g BTW, how big/old are the Clowns? dick |
Clown Loaches (Not acting normally?)
"Dick" wrote in message ... On Wed, 28 Dec 2005 14:17:08 GMT, "JeffinMississippi" wrote: So I put these Clown Loaches in the tank 2 days ago, 3 of them, to eat the snails. I was told per my previous posts to use three because they like the company of other Loaches and that they would eat the snails. Per the Petsmart instructions I am feeding them dried shrimp. So far they dont seem to be very active, they found tier holes inside of a few different pieces of tank decoration (Shells) and they pretty much stay there doing nothing. They definitly arent eating the snails and they just lay around doing nothing and dont interact at all. I have a 20 gallon tank with 18 fish (8 of them are Neon Tetras), Gouramis, 3 Molly's, the Clown Loaches and others. The tanks strip readings are all in the normal range and the other fish are VERY active. Tank water temp is 81 degrees F. I have about 12 Clowns in 3 tanks. Their behavior is different in the different tanks. Their behavior has also changed over the last 2 1/2 years. My tanks are kept at about 77F. I have 2 Clowns in a 10 gallon tank. One rarely leaves a large ornament. Its companion is out much more often. None of the tanks that have Clowns have any snails. Over the years none have survived. However, given the special diet you offer of dried shrimp, why should they eat snails? I would stop the special feeding for awhile. Don't worry, they will survive and maybe the snails won't. g BTW, how big/old are the Clowns? They are about 2 inches long and I just got them 3 days ago, dont know how old. But from reading see they can live for 50 years. |
Clown Loaches (Not acting normally?)
"JeffinMississippi" wrote in message
... "Dick" wrote in message ... On Wed, 28 Dec 2005 14:17:08 GMT, "JeffinMississippi" wrote: So I put these Clown Loaches in the tank 2 days ago, 3 of them, to eat the snails. I was told per my previous posts to use three because they like the company of other Loaches and that they would eat the snails. Per the Petsmart instructions I am feeding them dried shrimp. So far they dont seem to be very active, they found tier holes inside of a few different pieces of tank decoration (Shells) and they pretty much stay there doing nothing. They definitly arent eating the snails and they just lay around doing nothing and dont interact at all. I have a 20 gallon tank with 18 fish (8 of them are Neon Tetras), Gouramis, 3 Molly's, the Clown Loaches and others. The tanks strip readings are all in the normal range and the other fish are VERY active. Tank water temp is 81 degrees F. I have about 12 Clowns in 3 tanks. Their behavior is different in the different tanks. Their behavior has also changed over the last 2 1/2 years. My tanks are kept at about 77F. I have 2 Clowns in a 10 gallon tank. One rarely leaves a large ornament. Its companion is out much more often. None of the tanks that have Clowns have any snails. Over the years none have survived. However, given the special diet you offer of dried shrimp, why should they eat snails? I would stop the special feeding for awhile. Don't worry, they will survive and maybe the snails won't. g BTW, how big/old are the Clowns? They are about 2 inches long and I just got them 3 days ago, dont know how old. But from reading see they can live for 50 years. I agree with Dick. First off, they are still acclimating, so their behaviour for several days will probably not be typical. This applies to almost all fish (except large predators who need to quickly establish themselves). After that, their behaviour depends on the environment they came from (dark, light, sheltered, crowded ? etc), and the environment they are in now (exposed, strange fish, shadows, brightness? etc), and Clowns are not particularly predictable anyways. You might find that whatever your trio does, they do in 2 groups as one becomes a loner. Part of what makes this hobby interesting (and frustrating) is a certain amount of unpredictability. -- www.NetMax.tk |
Clown Loaches (Not acting normally?)
Hi..
So I put these Clown Loaches in the tank 2 days ago, 3 of them, to eat the snails. I have a 20 gallon tank with 18 fish (8 of them are Neon Tetras), Gouramis, 3 Molly's, the Clown Loaches and others. Sorry, personally I would _never_ recommend keeping Clown Loaches in such a small tank. Do you possibly have any other (bigger) aquarium? 20g tank: Substract glas, gravel, roots, stones eventually filter volume and look what's finally netto.. -- cu Marco |
Clown Loaches (Not acting normally?)
I will toss in my 2 pennies in agreement with the others. Give the
fish a few days to become accustomed to the tank before you worry about them behaviorally. Also, since clowns eventually reach a foot long or more, your 20 gal tank is no more than a temporary home, and with the other fish in that tank, it's already pretty overstocked in my opinion. Test your water frequently and watch for trouble. billy -- ¼á "JeffinMississippi" wrote in message ... So I put these Clown Loaches in the tank 2 days ago, 3 of them, to eat the snails. I was told per my previous posts to use three because they like the company of other Loaches and that they would eat the snails. Per the Petsmart instructions I am feeding them dried shrimp. So far they dont seem to be very active, they found tier holes inside of a few different pieces of tank decoration (Shells) and they pretty much stay there doing nothing. They definitly arent eating the snails and they just lay around doing nothing and dont interact at all. I have a 20 gallon tank with 18 fish (8 of them are Neon Tetras), Gouramis, 3 Molly's, the Clown Loaches and others. The tanks strip readings are all in the normal range and the other fish are VERY active. Tank water temp is 81 degrees F. |
Clown Loaches (Not acting normally?)
"Billy" wrote in message . .. I will toss in my 2 pennies in agreement with the others. Give the fish a few days to become accustomed to the tank before you worry about them behaviorally. Also, since clowns eventually reach a foot long or more, your 20 gal tank is no more than a temporary home, and with the other fish in that tank, it's already pretty overstocked in my opinion. Test your water frequently and watch for trouble. billy I definitly agree it looks overstocked. But on one of my previous posts/questions I was told 1 fish per gallon of water. I figured the Neon Tetras being so small wouldnt be a problem. I already knew about the Loaches, temporary. It was suggested in this group that I put the loaches in the tank, let them clean up the snails and possibly the fish store would buy them back or I could sell them. |
Clown Loaches (Not acting normally?)
1 fish per gallon of water?!
I don't know who told you that, but I wouldn't take it. What kind of fish? 1 adult Oscar in 1 gallon of water? What about an Arawana, Bala Shark? Tetra's may be a different story, but still... Fishman "Jeff" wrote in message ... "Billy" wrote in message . .. I will toss in my 2 pennies in agreement with the others. Give the fish a few days to become accustomed to the tank before you worry about them behaviorally. Also, since clowns eventually reach a foot long or more, your 20 gal tank is no more than a temporary home, and with the other fish in that tank, it's already pretty overstocked in my opinion. Test your water frequently and watch for trouble. billy I definitly agree it looks overstocked. But on one of my previous posts/questions I was told 1 fish per gallon of water. I figured the Neon Tetras being so small wouldnt be a problem. I already knew about the Loaches, temporary. It was suggested in this group that I put the loaches in the tank, let them clean up the snails and possibly the fish store would buy them back or I could sell them. |
Clown Loaches (Not acting normally?)
In article ,
"Jeff" wrote: I definitly agree it looks overstocked. But on one of my previous posts/questions I was told 1 fish per gallon of water. I figured the Neon No, that's one *inch* of fish per gallon of water. Tetras being so small wouldnt be a problem. Correct, because they are only about an inch anyway. -- Dan Abel Petaluma, California, USA |
Clown Loaches (Not acting normally?)
On Wed, 28 Dec 2005 18:28:25 +0100, Marco Schwarz
wrote: Hi.. So I put these Clown Loaches in the tank 2 days ago, 3 of them, to eat the snails. I have a 20 gallon tank with 18 fish (8 of them are Neon Tetras), Gouramis, 3 Molly's, the Clown Loaches and others. Sorry, personally I would _never_ recommend keeping Clown Loaches in such a small tank. Do you possibly have any other (bigger) aquarium? 20g tank: Substract glas, gravel, roots, stones eventually filter volume and look what's finally netto.. Marco, I am curious about the attitude that Clowns need more space. Perhaps size is part of the reason. None of my Clowns have grown much more than 5 inches. The 2 in my 10 gallon tank seem no different than the 6 in my 75 gallon tank, similar size, color and behavior. These Clowns have been in their respective tanks about 2 1/2 years. Do you have any personal experience which causes your caution about smaller tanks? dick |
Clown Loaches (Not acting normally?)
On Thu, 29 Dec 2005 04:08:50 GMT, "Fishman" wrote:
1 fish per gallon of water?! I don't know who told you that, but I wouldn't take it. What kind of fish? 1 adult Oscar in 1 gallon of water? What about an Arawana, Bala Shark? Tetra's may be a different story, but still... Fishman I imagine he meant 1 fish-inch per gallon. I have exceeded this measure with no problems. Frequent partial water changes over come many problems in my opinion. dick "Jeff" wrote in message . .. "Billy" wrote in message . .. I will toss in my 2 pennies in agreement with the others. Give the fish a few days to become accustomed to the tank before you worry about them behaviorally. Also, since clowns eventually reach a foot long or more, your 20 gal tank is no more than a temporary home, and with the other fish in that tank, it's already pretty overstocked in my opinion. Test your water frequently and watch for trouble. billy I definitly agree it looks overstocked. But on one of my previous posts/questions I was told 1 fish per gallon of water. I figured the Neon Tetras being so small wouldnt be a problem. I already knew about the Loaches, temporary. It was suggested in this group that I put the loaches in the tank, let them clean up the snails and possibly the fish store would buy them back or I could sell them. |
Clown Loaches (Not acting normally?)
Dick, I also am curiuos about this. I have three clown loaches in a 100
gallon tank, along with a few miscellanous other fish. They are only about 4 or 5 inches long also. I have had them about a year and a half and they just don't seem to grow any larger. I was told when I got them that they needed to be in a very large tank because they would get very big, but it's just not happening yet. Sarah Marco, I am curious about the attitude that Clowns need more space. Perhaps size is part of the reason. None of my Clowns have grown much more than 5 inches. The 2 in my 10 gallon tank seem no different than the 6 in my 75 gallon tank, similar size, color and behavior. These Clowns have been in their respective tanks about 2 1/2 years. Do you have any personal experience which causes your caution about smaller tanks? dick |
Clown Loaches (Not acting normally?)
My Clowns are only 4" long and I've had them for 2 years in a 70g.
Either they are not eating well enough or my water is too hard, and I should look around to find someone who will take them from me. Generally they can be slow growing, especially at certain sizes, but I've found their growth rates are very much affected by water quality and diet. I think the issue with sizing the tank to the fish is two-fold. Many people only have one tank, so they need to be warned about the eventual size of the fish, to be sure they are prepared to adequately accommodate them. Others like myself & Dick have many tanks, so we can simply rotate them through increasingly larger tanks as required, or not, if not needed. The other issue is that tank size will affect their growth rate, or more particularly, water quality (which is poorer in small tanks) may stunt the fish. If moving the fish through tank upgrades, you need to be slightly ahead of their requirements to not stunt their growth (imo). A few more issues particular to botia a - they are shoaling fish, so you need many of them. - they are bottom dwellers, reducing their useable space to the square footage of the bottom. - they can be light sensitive and burrow for shelter and darkness, further reducing their usable habitat. Each of these points, should influence us to providing larger habitats. jmo -- www.NetMax.tk "Sarah Navarro" wrote in message nk.net... Dick, I also am curiuos about this. I have three clown loaches in a 100 gallon tank, along with a few miscellanous other fish. They are only about 4 or 5 inches long also. I have had them about a year and a half and they just don't seem to grow any larger. I was told when I got them that they needed to be in a very large tank because they would get very big, but it's just not happening yet. Sarah Marco, I am curious about the attitude that Clowns need more space. Perhaps size is part of the reason. None of my Clowns have grown much more than 5 inches. The 2 in my 10 gallon tank seem no different than the 6 in my 75 gallon tank, similar size, color and behavior. These Clowns have been in their respective tanks about 2 1/2 years. Do you have any personal experience which causes your caution about smaller tanks? dick |
Clown Loaches (Not acting normally?)
"Dan Abel" wrote in message ... In article , "Jeff" wrote: I definitly agree it looks overstocked. But on one of my previous posts/questions I was told 1 fish per gallon of water. I figured the Neon No, that's one *inch* of fish per gallon of water. Tetras being so small wouldnt be a problem. Correct, because they are only about an inch anyway. -- Ive got about 35 inches of fish in a 20 gallon tank. |
Clown Loaches (Not acting normally?)
"JeffinMississippi" wrote in message
... "Dan Abel" wrote in message ... In article , "Jeff" wrote: I definitly agree it looks overstocked. But on one of my previous posts/questions I was told 1 fish per gallon of water. I figured the Neon No, that's one *inch* of fish per gallon of water. Tetras being so small wouldnt be a problem. Correct, because they are only about an inch anyway. -- Ive got about 35 inches of fish in a 20 gallon tank. There are many ways to calculate fish-load. The fish-inch-gallon is a guideline which works very poorly at the extremes of high mass (Oscars) and low mass (Neon tetra). http://www.2cah.com/netmax/basics/st...stocking.shtml When in doubt, filter according to your fish-load and not your tank size. If you think you should have a 40g tank, then you should be filtering your 20g as at least a 40g (generally 25% larger), but as your tank is small, you want lower turbulence filters (ie: a small Eheim canister filter to augment what you already have). -- www.NetMax.tk |
Clown Loaches (Not acting normally?)
Hi..
[...Clown Loaches...] Do you have any personal experience which causes your caution about smaller tanks? First contact: ~37 years ago. A few years later I started keeping a group for some years in my at that time biggest tank 140/40/40cm (~55/15/15"). These days I thaught their maximal size were 13-15cm (~5-6"). Mine were finally 16+ cm (~7") when I read they grow up to 30cm (~ 12"). So I gave them to a fish keeper who had a 2000 liter tank (~530g) with some 7 years old Clowns of about 25cm (~10"). There mine grew up to 21cm (~8"), but his Clowns up to 27cm (~11"). It was too late for mine to reach a normal (healthy) size. ;-( Now I agree to keepers which demand a minimal tank of 150cm (~60") or 500 liter (~132g) for a group of them. That experience made me thoughtful so I stopped keeping fish like Clowns and Goldfish. We use a word named "Verbutterung". I don't know how to translate. It describes what happens if fish is forced to live in much to small tank: it will stay small(er), will be less healthier and will get morphological and physiological problems.. -- cu Marco |
Clown Loaches (Not acting normally?)
NetMax wrote:
My Clowns are only 4" long and I've had them for 2 years in a 70g. Either they are not eating well enough or my water is too hard, and I should look around to find someone who will take them from me. Generally they can be slow growing, especially at certain sizes, but I've found their growth rates are very much affected by water quality and diet. I think the issue with sizing the tank to the fish is two-fold. Many people only have one tank, so they need to be warned about the eventual size of the fish, to be sure they are prepared to adequately accommodate them. Others like myself & Dick have many tanks, so we can simply rotate them through increasingly larger tanks as required, or not, if not needed. The other issue is that tank size will affect their growth rate, or more particularly, water quality (which is poorer in small tanks) may stunt the fish. If moving the fish through tank upgrades, you need to be slightly ahead of their requirements to not stunt their growth (imo). A few more issues particular to botia a - they are shoaling fish, so you need many of them. - they are bottom dwellers, reducing their useable space to the square footage of the bottom. - they can be light sensitive and burrow for shelter and darkness, further reducing their usable habitat. Each of these points, should influence us to providing larger habitats. jmo At one of my LFS they have a cl loach for sail that is about 8" in size, appently the fish is about 15y old. |
Clown Loaches (Not acting normally?)
"Marco Schwarz" wrote in message ... We use a word named "Verbutterung". I don't know how to translate. It describes what happens if fish is forced to live in much to small tank: it will stay small(er), will be less healthier and will get morphological and physiological problems.. ================= I think we would call that "stunted." -- Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995... Aquariums since 1952 My Pond & Aquarium Pages: NEW PAGE: Aquariums: http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastada...ium-Page4.html http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy ~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o |
Clown Loaches (Not acting normally?)
Hi Netmax,
I do have several tanks, but as I gain experience I am more and more hesitant about moving my fish between tanks. I have seen "sick" fish recover in their community tanks. As to other's comment about "stunted" Clowns, this sounds negative as I associated stunted with sickness. All of my Clowns healthy and active. If they are stunted, so much the better. After I got my Clowns I read the posts warning about potential size. That was over 2 years ago. It has been over a year since I have noticed any new growth. I will be quite happy if they remain at their current sizes. dick On Thu, 29 Dec 2005 10:56:12 -0500, "NetMax" wrote: My Clowns are only 4" long and I've had them for 2 years in a 70g. Either they are not eating well enough or my water is too hard, and I should look around to find someone who will take them from me. Generally they can be slow growing, especially at certain sizes, but I've found their growth rates are very much affected by water quality and diet. I think the issue with sizing the tank to the fish is two-fold. Many people only have one tank, so they need to be warned about the eventual size of the fish, to be sure they are prepared to adequately accommodate them. Others like myself & Dick have many tanks, so we can simply rotate them through increasingly larger tanks as required, or not, if not needed. The other issue is that tank size will affect their growth rate, or more particularly, water quality (which is poorer in small tanks) may stunt the fish. If moving the fish through tank upgrades, you need to be slightly ahead of their requirements to not stunt their growth (imo). A few more issues particular to botia a - they are shoaling fish, so you need many of them. - they are bottom dwellers, reducing their useable space to the square footage of the bottom. - they can be light sensitive and burrow for shelter and darkness, further reducing their usable habitat. Each of these points, should influence us to providing larger habitats. jmo |
Clown Loaches (Not acting normally?)
'Stunted' tends to have a negative connotation, and if it's due to bad
conditions, then it's deserved. It's interesting to note that stunted fish (I call them runts) are also naturally occurring. I think this is part of their evolutionary strategy of constant diversification through mutation. Non-natural runts (stunted by environment rather than genetics) can occur from a variety of reasons. The most predominant would appear to be diet (ie: feeding only a flake food), but it was explained to me that water parameter dilution also plays a major part, especially with certain species. The explanation was as follows: A growing fish will release hormones which it can then detect back from the water. If the hormones are not detectable or very low, then the body of water is large and/or there is no or little competition from similar species, so the proper action would be to expend more energy on growth (until some other constraint develops, such as genetics, food supply etc). If the hormones detected back are high, then the body of water is small (or shrinking), or there is significant competition from similar species (both indicating a reduced food supply), so a proper action might be to not expand energy on growth, and stay small (surviving on less food). If this analysis is correct (and I suspect that there is significant truth behind it), then it would go a long way to explaining why total sizes for fish are so different from an aquarium (where these hormones are in high concentration) and from nature. Loaches in particular are mostly from the Mekong river system fed from mountain ranges (refreshed from heavy rainfall and snowmelt), so their reaction (stunting) to accumulated elements in an aquarium (nitrates, hormones etc) might be much more acute than lake fish, such as African mbuna, which do approach and even exceed their natural size in nature. -- www.NetMax.tk "Dick" wrote in message ... Hi Netmax, I do have several tanks, but as I gain experience I am more and more hesitant about moving my fish between tanks. I have seen "sick" fish recover in their community tanks. As to other's comment about "stunted" Clowns, this sounds negative as I associated stunted with sickness. All of my Clowns healthy and active. If they are stunted, so much the better. After I got my Clowns I read the posts warning about potential size. That was over 2 years ago. It has been over a year since I have noticed any new growth. I will be quite happy if they remain at their current sizes. dick On Thu, 29 Dec 2005 10:56:12 -0500, "NetMax" wrote: My Clowns are only 4" long and I've had them for 2 years in a 70g. Either they are not eating well enough or my water is too hard, and I should look around to find someone who will take them from me. Generally they can be slow growing, especially at certain sizes, but I've found their growth rates are very much affected by water quality and diet. I think the issue with sizing the tank to the fish is two-fold. Many people only have one tank, so they need to be warned about the eventual size of the fish, to be sure they are prepared to adequately accommodate them. Others like myself & Dick have many tanks, so we can simply rotate them through increasingly larger tanks as required, or not, if not needed. The other issue is that tank size will affect their growth rate, or more particularly, water quality (which is poorer in small tanks) may stunt the fish. If moving the fish through tank upgrades, you need to be slightly ahead of their requirements to not stunt their growth (imo). A few more issues particular to botia a - they are shoaling fish, so you need many of them. - they are bottom dwellers, reducing their useable space to the square footage of the bottom. - they can be light sensitive and burrow for shelter and darkness, further reducing their usable habitat. Each of these points, should influence us to providing larger habitats. jmo |
Clown Loaches (Not acting normally?)
NetMax wrote:
'Stunted' tends to have a negative connotation, and if it's due to bad conditions, then it's deserved. It's interesting to note that stunted fish (I call them runts) are also naturally occurring. I think this is part of their evolutionary strategy of constant diversification through mutation. Non-natural runts (stunted by environment rather than genetics) can occur from a variety of reasons. The most predominant would appear to be diet (ie: feeding only a flake food), but it was explained to me that water parameter dilution also plays a major part, especially with certain species. The explanation was as follows: A growing fish will release hormones which it can then detect back from the water. If the hormones are not detectable or very low, then the body of water is large and/or there is no or little competition from similar species, so the proper action would be to expend more energy on growth (until some other constraint develops, such as genetics, food supply etc). If the hormones detected back are high, then the body of water is small (or shrinking), or there is significant competition from similar species (both indicating a reduced food supply), so a proper action might be to not expand energy on growth, and stay small (surviving on less food). If this analysis is correct (and I suspect that there is significant truth behind it), then it would go a long way to explaining why total sizes for fish are so different from an aquarium (where these hormones are in high concentration) and from nature. Loaches in particular are mostly from the Mekong river system fed from mountain ranges (refreshed from heavy rainfall and snowmelt), so their reaction (stunting) to accumulated elements in an aquarium (nitrates, hormones etc) might be much more acute than lake fish, such as African mbuna, which do approach and even exceed their natural size in nature. Hmmm....interesting I have a "stunted" Platy. He's around 1 year old and has never grown above 1cm. Platy fry from the same parents but in the "parent" tank grow rapidly to "adult" size. The "stunted" Platy has always lived in a 5gall tank (was born in it). His last contact with Platys was at around 2 months old when I netted out the fry and took them to the LFS - he remained only because he jumped out of the bag and so I decided that he may as well stay. His only fishy companions have been single bettas. Diet has always been varied - flake and frozen and the odd bits of pea that have been fed to the betta yet he has always remained small. My guess is that he is a "natural runt" but as he had never had any competition from other platys I've also wondered if this has been another reason for the lack of growth. Maybe sharing the tank with a betta might also have meant that staying small has been to his advantage in keeping out of trouble. I actually spotted some dinky platys (I'm guessing very young) at the LFS and bought him 3 small companions today - his days as a betta companion are over. If they get too big they will move on to a larger tank. It will be interesting to see if he grows at all now he is mixing with his "own kind" Gill |
Clown Loaches (Not acting normally?)
"Fishman" wrote in message news:mjJsf.28955$x%2.4606@trnddc06... 1 fish per gallon of water?! I don't know who told you that, but I wouldn't take it. What kind of fish? 1 adult Oscar in 1 gallon of water? What about an Arawana, Bala Shark? Tetra's may be a different story, but still... It's not a hard rule, just a guideline. Many fish would not tolerate such conditions, such as large fish, or very aggressive fish. There are no hard rules in aquaria, give me one, and I'm sure I could find someone who has broken the rule and had good results. g b |
Clown Loaches (Not acting normally?)
"Gill Passman" wrote in message
.. . NetMax wrote: 'Stunted' tends to have a negative connotation, and if it's due to bad conditions, then it's deserved. It's interesting to note that stunted fish (I call them runts) are also naturally occurring. I think this is part of their evolutionary strategy of constant diversification through mutation. Non-natural runts (stunted by environment rather than genetics) can occur from a variety of reasons. The most predominant would appear to be diet (ie: feeding only a flake food), but it was explained to me that water parameter dilution also plays a major part, especially with certain species. The explanation was as follows: A growing fish will release hormones which it can then detect back from the water. If the hormones are not detectable or very low, then the body of water is large and/or there is no or little competition from similar species, so the proper action would be to expend more energy on growth (until some other constraint develops, such as genetics, food supply etc). If the hormones detected back are high, then the body of water is small (or shrinking), or there is significant competition from similar species (both indicating a reduced food supply), so a proper action might be to not expand energy on growth, and stay small (surviving on less food). If this analysis is correct (and I suspect that there is significant truth behind it), then it would go a long way to explaining why total sizes for fish are so different from an aquarium (where these hormones are in high concentration) and from nature. Loaches in particular are mostly from the Mekong river system fed from mountain ranges (refreshed from heavy rainfall and snowmelt), so their reaction (stunting) to accumulated elements in an aquarium (nitrates, hormones etc) might be much more acute than lake fish, such as African mbuna, which do approach and even exceed their natural size in nature. Hmmm....interesting I have a "stunted" Platy. He's around 1 year old and has never grown above 1cm. Platy fry from the same parents but in the "parent" tank grow rapidly to "adult" size. The "stunted" Platy has always lived in a 5gall tank (was born in it). His last contact with Platys was at around 2 months old when I netted out the fry and took them to the LFS - he remained only because he jumped out of the bag and so I decided that he may as well stay. His only fishy companions have been single bettas. Diet has always been varied - flake and frozen and the odd bits of pea that have been fed to the betta yet he has always remained small. My guess is that he is a "natural runt" but as he had never had any competition from other platys I've also wondered if this has been another reason for the lack of growth. Maybe sharing the tank with a betta might also have meant that staying small has been to his advantage in keeping out of trouble. I actually spotted some dinky platys (I'm guessing very young) at the LFS and bought him 3 small companions today - his days as a betta companion are over. If they get too big they will move on to a larger tank. It will be interesting to see if he grows at all now he is mixing with his "own kind" Gill Two things came to mind reading your post. The first was a vague recollection of a correlation between growth and competition, such that a competitive environment causes them to grow faster. The 2nd was that the longer a fish is exposed to the environmental conditions which cause them to stop or reduce their growth, the less likely it becomes that they will resume their normal growth rate or reach their normal size after the conditions have been corrected. This is only from personal observation. -- www.NetMax.tk |
Clown Loaches (Not acting normally?)
"Billy" wrote in message . .. "Fishman" wrote in message news:mjJsf.28955$x%2.4606@trnddc06... 1 fish per gallon of water?! I don't know who told you that, but I wouldn't take it. What kind of fish? 1 adult Oscar in 1 gallon of water? What about an Arawana, Bala Shark? Tetra's may be a different story, but still... It's not a hard rule, just a guideline. Many fish would not tolerate such conditions, such as large fish, or very aggressive fish. There are no hard rules in aquaria, give me one, and I'm sure I could find someone who has broken the rule and had good results. g b Fish need water. After that, it's anyone's opinion ;~). -- www.NetMax.tk |
Clown Loaches (Not acting normally?)
On Sat, 31 Dec 2005 00:29:23 -0500, "NetMax"
wrote: "Gill Passman" wrote in message . .. NetMax wrote: 'Stunted' tends to have a negative connotation, and if it's due to bad conditions, then it's deserved. It's interesting to note that stunted fish (I call them runts) are also naturally occurring. I think this is part of their evolutionary strategy of constant diversification through mutation. Non-natural runts (stunted by environment rather than genetics) can occur from a variety of reasons. The most predominant would appear to be diet (ie: feeding only a flake food), but it was explained to me that water parameter dilution also plays a major part, especially with certain species. The explanation was as follows: A growing fish will release hormones which it can then detect back from the water. If the hormones are not detectable or very low, then the body of water is large and/or there is no or little competition from similar species, so the proper action would be to expend more energy on growth (until some other constraint develops, such as genetics, food supply etc). If the hormones detected back are high, then the body of water is small (or shrinking), or there is significant competition from similar species (both indicating a reduced food supply), so a proper action might be to not expand energy on growth, and stay small (surviving on less food). If this analysis is correct (and I suspect that there is significant truth behind it), then it would go a long way to explaining why total sizes for fish are so different from an aquarium (where these hormones are in high concentration) and from nature. Loaches in particular are mostly from the Mekong river system fed from mountain ranges (refreshed from heavy rainfall and snowmelt), so their reaction (stunting) to accumulated elements in an aquarium (nitrates, hormones etc) might be much more acute than lake fish, such as African mbuna, which do approach and even exceed their natural size in nature. Hmmm....interesting I have a "stunted" Platy. He's around 1 year old and has never grown above 1cm. Platy fry from the same parents but in the "parent" tank grow rapidly to "adult" size. The "stunted" Platy has always lived in a 5gall tank (was born in it). His last contact with Platys was at around 2 months old when I netted out the fry and took them to the LFS - he remained only because he jumped out of the bag and so I decided that he may as well stay. His only fishy companions have been single bettas. Diet has always been varied - flake and frozen and the odd bits of pea that have been fed to the betta yet he has always remained small. My guess is that he is a "natural runt" but as he had never had any competition from other platys I've also wondered if this has been another reason for the lack of growth. Maybe sharing the tank with a betta might also have meant that staying small has been to his advantage in keeping out of trouble. I actually spotted some dinky platys (I'm guessing very young) at the LFS and bought him 3 small companions today - his days as a betta companion are over. If they get too big they will move on to a larger tank. It will be interesting to see if he grows at all now he is mixing with his "own kind" Gill Two things came to mind reading your post. The first was a vague recollection of a correlation between growth and competition, such that a competitive environment causes them to grow faster. The 2nd was that the longer a fish is exposed to the environmental conditions which cause them to stop or reduce their growth, the less likely it becomes that they will resume their normal growth rate or reach their normal size after the conditions have been corrected. This is only from personal observation. A Black Molly had 50 fry in a 10 gallon tank. There sizes varied widley as they grew. If the chemical explaination were the answer, I would think they all would be stunted, whereas most were normal or even larger than normal. Of course as they grew large enough they were moved to other tanks. The last ones in the breeding tank were smaller than normal. A few died, but most lived. Anyway, I am happy my Clowns have remained a good size for my tanks. I wonder how the chemical influence explains the 2 that have lived in my 10 gallon tank versus the 6 in the 75 all being similar in size? dick |
Clown Loaches (Not acting normally?)
On Fri, 30 Dec 2005 16:37:15 -0800, "Billy"
wrote: "Fishman" wrote in message news:mjJsf.28955$x%2.4606@trnddc06... 1 fish per gallon of water?! I don't know who told you that, but I wouldn't take it. What kind of fish? 1 adult Oscar in 1 gallon of water? What about an Arawana, Bala Shark? Tetra's may be a different story, but still... It's not a hard rule, just a guideline. Many fish would not tolerate such conditions, such as large fish, or very aggressive fish. There are no hard rules in aquaria, give me one, and I'm sure I could find someone who has broken the rule and had good results. g b I agree, one size does not fit all. I like answers in the newsgroups as they most often are real experience rather than a generalization. dick |
Clown Loaches (Not acting normally?)
On Sat, 31 Dec 2005 00:31:00 -0500, "NetMax"
wrote: "Billy" wrote in message ... "Fishman" wrote in message news:mjJsf.28955$x%2.4606@trnddc06... 1 fish per gallon of water?! I don't know who told you that, but I wouldn't take it. What kind of fish? 1 adult Oscar in 1 gallon of water? What about an Arawana, Bala Shark? Tetra's may be a different story, but still... It's not a hard rule, just a guideline. Many fish would not tolerate such conditions, such as large fish, or very aggressive fish. There are no hard rules in aquaria, give me one, and I'm sure I could find someone who has broken the rule and had good results. g b Fish need water. After that, it's anyone's opinion ;~). Tell that to a "jumper!" g dick |
Clown Loaches (Not acting normally?)
Dick wrote:
On Sat, 31 Dec 2005 00:29:23 -0500, "NetMax" wrote: "Gill Passman" wrote in message ... NetMax wrote: 'Stunted' tends to have a negative connotation, and if it's due to bad conditions, then it's deserved. It's interesting to note that stunted fish (I call them runts) are also naturally occurring. I think this is part of their evolutionary strategy of constant diversification through mutation. Non-natural runts (stunted by environment rather than genetics) can occur from a variety of reasons. The most predominant would appear to be diet (ie: feeding only a flake food), but it was explained to me that water parameter dilution also plays a major part, especially with certain species. The explanation was as follows: A growing fish will release hormones which it can then detect back from the water. If the hormones are not detectable or very low, then the body of water is large and/or there is no or little competition from similar species, so the proper action would be to expend more energy on growth (until some other constraint develops, such as genetics, food supply etc). If the hormones detected back are high, then the body of water is small (or shrinking), or there is significant competition from similar species (both indicating a reduced food supply), so a proper action might be to not expand energy on growth, and stay small (surviving on less food). If this analysis is correct (and I suspect that there is significant truth behind it), then it would go a long way to explaining why total sizes for fish are so different from an aquarium (where these hormones are in high concentration) and from nature. Loaches in particular are mostly from the Mekong river system fed from mountain ranges (refreshed from heavy rainfall and snowmelt), so their reaction (stunting) to accumulated elements in an aquarium (nitrates, hormones etc) might be much more acute than lake fish, such as African mbuna, which do approach and even exceed their natural size in nature. Hmmm....interesting I have a "stunted" Platy. He's around 1 year old and has never grown above 1cm. Platy fry from the same parents but in the "parent" tank grow rapidly to "adult" size. The "stunted" Platy has always lived in a 5gall tank (was born in it). His last contact with Platys was at around 2 months old when I netted out the fry and took them to the LFS - he remained only because he jumped out of the bag and so I decided that he may as well stay. His only fishy companions have been single bettas. Diet has always been varied - flake and frozen and the odd bits of pea that have been fed to the betta yet he has always remained small. My guess is that he is a "natural runt" but as he had never had any competition from other platys I've also wondered if this has been another reason for the lack of growth. Maybe sharing the tank with a betta might also have meant that staying small has been to his advantage in keeping out of trouble. I actually spotted some dinky platys (I'm guessing very young) at the LFS and bought him 3 small companions today - his days as a betta companion are over. If they get too big they will move on to a larger tank. It will be interesting to see if he grows at all now he is mixing with his "own kind" Gill Two things came to mind reading your post. The first was a vague recollection of a correlation between growth and competition, such that a competitive environment causes them to grow faster. The 2nd was that the longer a fish is exposed to the environmental conditions which cause them to stop or reduce their growth, the less likely it becomes that they will resume their normal growth rate or reach their normal size after the conditions have been corrected. This is only from personal observation. A Black Molly had 50 fry in a 10 gallon tank. There sizes varied widley as they grew. If the chemical explaination were the answer, I would think they all would be stunted, whereas most were normal or even larger than normal. Of course as they grew large enough they were moved to other tanks. The last ones in the breeding tank were smaller than normal. A few died, but most lived. Anyway, I am happy my Clowns have remained a good size for my tanks. I wonder how the chemical influence explains the 2 that have lived in my 10 gallon tank versus the 6 in the 75 all being similar in size? dick My experience has been varying sizes from each batch of fry. If left in the Community tank it is only the strongest that survive. The stunted Platy survived, I believe, because he was not given this type of competition...in nature or even in the artificial confines of a community aquarium he would not have lived as long as he did - sadly I made a big mistake by putting in some Platy friends for him - I found him dead this morning :-( I think that nature/genetics does play a big part in the size fish grow to - but yes I also agree that a fish will not thrive if the conditions are wrong. I probably wouldn't put Clown Loaches in a small tank unless it was for QT purposes. However Dick's experience in fish keeping and stocking levels have allowed him to do this successfully - I wouldn't trust myself to be diligent enough to make it work. The 2nd was that the longer a fish is exposed to the environmental conditions which cause them to stop or reduce their growth, the less likely it becomes that they will resume their normal growth rate or reach their normal size after the conditions have been corrected. This observation made me wonder if this is where the idea that fish "will only grow to the size of the tank" comes from. Sadly, I still hear this comment as an excuse for keeping large fish in unsuitable "over-stocked" tanks as a justification for doing so - everytime I hear it I try to explain that just because they survive short-term it is not in the best interests of the fish.... Gill |
Clown Loaches (Not acting normally?)
"Gill Passman" wrote in message
.. . Dick wrote: On Sat, 31 Dec 2005 00:29:23 -0500, "NetMax" wrote: "Gill Passman" wrote in message k... NetMax wrote: 'Stunted' tends to have a negative connotation, and if it's due to bad conditions, then it's deserved. It's interesting to note that stunted fish (I call them runts) are also naturally occurring. I think this is part of their evolutionary strategy of constant diversification through mutation. Non-natural runts (stunted by environment rather than genetics) can occur from a variety of reasons. The most predominant would appear to be diet (ie: feeding only a flake food), but it was explained to me that water parameter dilution also plays a major part, especially with certain species. The explanation was as follows: A growing fish will release hormones which it can then detect back from the water. If the hormones are not detectable or very low, then the body of water is large and/or there is no or little competition from similar species, so the proper action would be to expend more energy on growth (until some other constraint develops, such as genetics, food supply etc). If the hormones detected back are high, then the body of water is small (or shrinking), or there is significant competition from similar species (both indicating a reduced food supply), so a proper action might be to not expand energy on growth, and stay small (surviving on less food). If this analysis is correct (and I suspect that there is significant truth behind it), then it would go a long way to explaining why total sizes for fish are so different from an aquarium (where these hormones are in high concentration) and from nature. Loaches in particular are mostly from the Mekong river system fed from mountain ranges (refreshed from heavy rainfall and snowmelt), so their reaction (stunting) to accumulated elements in an aquarium (nitrates, hormones etc) might be much more acute than lake fish, such as African mbuna, which do approach and even exceed their natural size in nature. Hmmm....interesting I have a "stunted" Platy. He's around 1 year old and has never grown above 1cm. Platy fry from the same parents but in the "parent" tank grow rapidly to "adult" size. The "stunted" Platy has always lived in a 5gall tank (was born in it). His last contact with Platys was at around 2 months old when I netted out the fry and took them to the LFS - he remained only because he jumped out of the bag and so I decided that he may as well stay. His only fishy companions have been single bettas. Diet has always been varied - flake and frozen and the odd bits of pea that have been fed to the betta yet he has always remained small. My guess is that he is a "natural runt" but as he had never had any competition from other platys I've also wondered if this has been another reason for the lack of growth. Maybe sharing the tank with a betta might also have meant that staying small has been to his advantage in keeping out of trouble. I actually spotted some dinky platys (I'm guessing very young) at the LFS and bought him 3 small companions today - his days as a betta companion are over. If they get too big they will move on to a larger tank. It will be interesting to see if he grows at all now he is mixing with his "own kind" Gill Two things came to mind reading your post. The first was a vague recollection of a correlation between growth and competition, such that a competitive environment causes them to grow faster. The 2nd was that the longer a fish is exposed to the environmental conditions which cause them to stop or reduce their growth, the less likely it becomes that they will resume their normal growth rate or reach their normal size after the conditions have been corrected. This is only from personal observation. A Black Molly had 50 fry in a 10 gallon tank. There sizes varied widley as they grew. If the chemical explaination were the answer, I would think they all would be stunted, whereas most were normal or even larger than normal. Of course as they grew large enough they were moved to other tanks. The last ones in the breeding tank were smaller than normal. A few died, but most lived. The growth rates of different species, and in varying environments would make a great book. All I can tell you is that there seems to be a moment of diversification which varies according to several factors, and water quality (unless to an extreme) is not a big factor. For example, when a medium sized substrate spawning cichlid (ie: Jack Dempsey, Rainbows, Firemouths, Texans etc) has a batch of fry, it's remarkable how close in size the fry are and for how long. While the fry are under parental control, there is minimal size differences (there is always a few fry which follow a slightly different growth rate). If the parents are removed, the differences between the smallest and the largest suddenly seems to increase. Add a different species of fish (ie: some corys), and the differences increase again. Add a more food-competitive fish (fry from a slightly older generation), and again the difference between smallest and largest increases, to the point it looks like you have more than 2 generations of fry. Mess with the water temperature, or their diet and again you see this divergence occuring. At the other extreme, look at fish which have relatively few fry (cichlid mouthbrooders), and the fry will just be starting size divergence before they are even released from the parent. After 3-4 months, the fry will appear to have come from 2 broods instead of one. Livebearers are the same. Fry are all born at relatively the same size, but quickly diverge in size. I think the mechanisms at work in the first few months of fry growth are more related to species, genetics, temperature, competition and food supply (quantity, quality and interval), than water parameters as factors to cause runts. jmo Anyway, I am happy my Clowns have remained a good size for my tanks. I wonder how the chemical influence explains the 2 that have lived in my 10 gallon tank versus the 6 in the 75 all being similar in size? It would suggest that there is relatively little difference in water quality, due to your water change routine, but there are so many factors... dick My experience has been varying sizes from each batch of fry. If left in the Community tank it is only the strongest that survive. The stunted Platy survived, I believe, because he was not given this type of competition...in nature or even in the artificial confines of a community aquarium he would not have lived as long as he did - sadly I made a big mistake by putting in some Platy friends for him - I found him dead this morning :-( I think that nature/genetics does play a big part in the size fish grow to - but yes I also agree that a fish will not thrive if the conditions are wrong. I probably wouldn't put Clown Loaches in a small tank unless it was for QT purposes. However Dick's experience in fish keeping and stocking levels have allowed him to do this successfully - I wouldn't trust myself to be diligent enough to make it work. The 2nd was that the longer a fish is exposed to the environmental conditions which cause them to stop or reduce their growth, the less likely it becomes that they will resume their normal growth rate or reach their normal size after the conditions have been corrected. This observation made me wonder if this is where the idea that fish "will only grow to the size of the tank" comes from. Sadly, I still hear this comment as an excuse for keeping large fish in unsuitable "over-stocked" tanks as a justification for doing so - everytime I hear it I try to explain that just because they survive short-term it is not in the best interests of the fish.... Just last night I was talking with someone, arranging a new tank for their Tiger Oscar and Silver dollars. He was leaning towards a 70g Oceanic, and I was leaning more towards a 90g (or larger Perfecto for the same cost). We talked about the factors which make them grow, grow faster, not grow, grow slowly etc. The owner (who is a very diligent and conciencious hobbyist) went away from the conversation with ideas which would keep the Oscar growing slower and not get quite as big as possible, but in a responsible & humane way. Deliberate stunted is not neccesarily negative, or bad for the fish, but it's a fine line to manage, so it's far easier (imo) to provide optimal conditions and let the genetics be the constraint. Gill Sorry about your Platy Gill. I wonder what took him out so quickly? In aquariums, fish persist which would in nature, quickly become part of the food-chain, but occasionally' nature's crowd control methods sneak into our tanks, leaving us a little perplexed. -- www.NetMax.tk |
Clown Loaches (Not acting normally?)
"Dick" wrote in message
... On Sat, 31 Dec 2005 00:31:00 -0500, "NetMax" wrote: "Billy" wrote in message m... "Fishman" wrote in message news:mjJsf.28955$x%2.4606@trnddc06... 1 fish per gallon of water?! I don't know who told you that, but I wouldn't take it. What kind of fish? 1 adult Oscar in 1 gallon of water? What about an Arawana, Bala Shark? Tetra's may be a different story, but still... It's not a hard rule, just a guideline. Many fish would not tolerate such conditions, such as large fish, or very aggressive fish. There are no hard rules in aquaria, give me one, and I'm sure I could find someone who has broken the rule and had good results. g b Fish need water. After that, it's anyone's opinion ;~). Tell that to a "jumper!" g dick When a fish looks out of an aquarium, there is probably nothing that suggests that we are not underwater, anymore than when people look out a patio door, expecting air on the other side. Jumpers are not suicidal. They are explorers. -- www.NetMax.tk |
Clown Loaches (Not acting normally?)
NetMax wrote:
"Gill Passman" wrote in message .. . Dick wrote: On Sat, 31 Dec 2005 00:29:23 -0500, "NetMax" wrote: "Gill Passman" wrote in message . uk... NetMax wrote: 'Stunted' tends to have a negative connotation, and if it's due to bad conditions, then it's deserved. It's interesting to note that stunted fish (I call them runts) are also naturally occurring. I think this is part of their evolutionary strategy of constant diversification through mutation. Non-natural runts (stunted by environment rather than genetics) can occur from a variety of reasons. The most predominant would appear to be diet (ie: feeding only a flake food), but it was explained to me that water parameter dilution also plays a major part, especially with certain species. The explanation was as follows: A growing fish will release hormones which it can then detect back from the water. If the hormones are not detectable or very low, then the body of water is large and/or there is no or little competition from similar species, so the proper action would be to expend more energy on growth (until some other constraint develops, such as genetics, food supply etc). If the hormones detected back are high, then the body of water is small (or shrinking), or there is significant competition from similar species (both indicating a reduced food supply), so a proper action might be to not expand energy on growth, and stay small (surviving on less food). If this analysis is correct (and I suspect that there is significant truth behind it), then it would go a long way to explaining why total sizes for fish are so different from an aquarium (where these hormones are in high concentration) and from nature. Loaches in particular are mostly from the Mekong river system fed from mountain ranges (refreshed from heavy rainfall and snowmelt), so their reaction (stunting) to accumulated elements in an aquarium (nitrates, hormones etc) might be much more acute than lake fish, such as African mbuna, which do approach and even exceed their natural size in nature. Hmmm....interesting I have a "stunted" Platy. He's around 1 year old and has never grown above 1cm. Platy fry from the same parents but in the "parent" tank grow rapidly to "adult" size. The "stunted" Platy has always lived in a 5gall tank (was born in it). His last contact with Platys was at around 2 months old when I netted out the fry and took them to the LFS - he remained only because he jumped out of the bag and so I decided that he may as well stay. His only fishy companions have been single bettas. Diet has always been varied - flake and frozen and the odd bits of pea that have been fed to the betta yet he has always remained small. My guess is that he is a "natural runt" but as he had never had any competition from other platys I've also wondered if this has been another reason for the lack of growth. Maybe sharing the tank with a betta might also have meant that staying small has been to his advantage in keeping out of trouble. I actually spotted some dinky platys (I'm guessing very young) at the LFS and bought him 3 small companions today - his days as a betta companion are over. If they get too big they will move on to a larger tank. It will be interesting to see if he grows at all now he is mixing with his "own kind" Gill Two things came to mind reading your post. The first was a vague recollection of a correlation between growth and competition, such that a competitive environment causes them to grow faster. The 2nd was that the longer a fish is exposed to the environmental conditions which cause them to stop or reduce their growth, the less likely it becomes that they will resume their normal growth rate or reach their normal size after the conditions have been corrected. This is only from personal observation. A Black Molly had 50 fry in a 10 gallon tank. There sizes varied widley as they grew. If the chemical explaination were the answer, I would think they all would be stunted, whereas most were normal or even larger than normal. Of course as they grew large enough they were moved to other tanks. The last ones in the breeding tank were smaller than normal. A few died, but most lived. The growth rates of different species, and in varying environments would make a great book. All I can tell you is that there seems to be a moment of diversification which varies according to several factors, and water quality (unless to an extreme) is not a big factor. For example, when a medium sized substrate spawning cichlid (ie: Jack Dempsey, Rainbows, Firemouths, Texans etc) has a batch of fry, it's remarkable how close in size the fry are and for how long. While the fry are under parental control, there is minimal size differences (there is always a few fry which follow a slightly different growth rate). If the parents are removed, the differences between the smallest and the largest suddenly seems to increase. Add a different species of fish (ie: some corys), and the differences increase again. Add a more food-competitive fish (fry from a slightly older generation), and again the difference between smallest and largest increases, to the point it looks like you have more than 2 generations of fry. Mess with the water temperature, or their diet and again you see this divergence occuring. At the other extreme, look at fish which have relatively few fry (cichlid mouthbrooders), and the fry will just be starting size divergence before they are even released from the parent. After 3-4 months, the fry will appear to have come from 2 broods instead of one. Livebearers are the same. Fry are all born at relatively the same size, but quickly diverge in size. I think the mechanisms at work in the first few months of fry growth are more related to species, genetics, temperature, competition and food supply (quantity, quality and interval), than water parameters as factors to cause runts. jmo Anyway, I am happy my Clowns have remained a good size for my tanks. I wonder how the chemical influence explains the 2 that have lived in my 10 gallon tank versus the 6 in the 75 all being similar in size? It would suggest that there is relatively little difference in water quality, due to your water change routine, but there are so many factors... dick My experience has been varying sizes from each batch of fry. If left in the Community tank it is only the strongest that survive. The stunted Platy survived, I believe, because he was not given this type of competition...in nature or even in the artificial confines of a community aquarium he would not have lived as long as he did - sadly I made a big mistake by putting in some Platy friends for him - I found him dead this morning :-( I think that nature/genetics does play a big part in the size fish grow to - but yes I also agree that a fish will not thrive if the conditions are wrong. I probably wouldn't put Clown Loaches in a small tank unless it was for QT purposes. However Dick's experience in fish keeping and stocking levels have allowed him to do this successfully - I wouldn't trust myself to be diligent enough to make it work. The 2nd was that the longer a fish is exposed to the environmental conditions which cause them to stop or reduce their growth, the less likely it becomes that they will resume their normal growth rate or reach their normal size after the conditions have been corrected. This observation made me wonder if this is where the idea that fish "will only grow to the size of the tank" comes from. Sadly, I still hear this comment as an excuse for keeping large fish in unsuitable "over-stocked" tanks as a justification for doing so - everytime I hear it I try to explain that just because they survive short-term it is not in the best interests of the fish.... Just last night I was talking with someone, arranging a new tank for their Tiger Oscar and Silver dollars. He was leaning towards a 70g Oceanic, and I was leaning more towards a 90g (or larger Perfecto for the same cost). We talked about the factors which make them grow, grow faster, not grow, grow slowly etc. The owner (who is a very diligent and conciencious hobbyist) went away from the conversation with ideas which would keep the Oscar growing slower and not get quite as big as possible, but in a responsible & humane way. Deliberate stunted is not neccesarily negative, or bad for the fish, but it's a fine line to manage, so it's far easier (imo) to provide optimal conditions and let the genetics be the constraint. Gill Sorry about your Platy Gill. I wonder what took him out so quickly? In aquariums, fish persist which would in nature, quickly become part of the food-chain, but occasionally' nature's crowd control methods sneak into our tanks, leaving us a little perplexed. I think that it will remain a mystery unless anything carries off the 3 companions that I bought for him. My guess is that he was probably weakened by the over-feed episode last weekend and just got picked on - but who knows... Gill |
Clown Loaches (Not acting normally?)
Hi..
We use a word named "Verbutterung". I don't know how to translate. I think we would call that "stunted." Thanks. -- cu Marco |
Clown Loaches (Not acting normally?)
Sarah Navarro wrote:
Dick, I also am curiuos about this. I have three clown loaches in a 100 gallon tank, along with a few miscellanous other fish. They are only about 4 or 5 inches long also. I have had them about a year and a half and they just don't seem to grow any larger. I was told when I got them that they needed to be in a very large tank because they would get very big, but it's just not happening yet. Patience. A clown has a life expectancy of about 30 years, and they grow all the time, although growth slows down as they become older. What you buy in a LFS is a toddler. To OP: clowns tend to be quite shy and nocturnal at first, once they have adapted to their new home they become bolder, especially if kept in groups (5 to 6 is the minimum recommended). Clowns should always be supplied with hide-outs like PVC pipes, coconut shells, peat wood and the like. Note that clowns can recognise their keeper, when I had some they would not mind my presence but vanish if a stranger entered the room. |
Clown Loaches (Not acting normally?)
"Dr Engelbert Buxbaum" wrote in message ... Note that clowns can recognise their keeper, when I had some they would not mind my presence but vanish if a stranger entered the room. ============================ My Malawi cichlids were the same way. Whenever a stranger came into the house they'd vanish into the rockpile leaving what appeared to be an empty tank. But if you looked close you could see their beady little eyes in the darkness of the caves and crevices. They'd all be watching what was going on from their hidey-holes. -- Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995... Aquariums since 1952 My Pond & Aquarium Pages: NEW PAGE: Aquariums: http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastada...ium-Page4.html http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy ~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o |
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