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Cycling and Bio-Filter in Planted Tank
I am debating whether I need to put any bio-ball type media in my
filter for the bacteria. Do I need to build-up a bacteria colony in my filter for a planted tank or will the plants take care of the ammonia, NO2 and NO3? I have only five fish in the tank and not very densly planted tank. My main concern right now is to get the plants growing while keeping the fish healthy. |
Cycling and Bio-Filter in Planted Tank
Apparently having a *heavily* planted tank will buffer the cycle process but IMO it is very necessary to have a filter with loads of bio and mechanical media. Seeing that you have little plants at this stage I would recommend you get a filter, Aquaclears are my favourite, in my years of keeping fish these HOB filters do a spiffy job. -- Kind Regards Cameron "Shorty" wrote in message ups.com... I am debating whether I need to put any bio-ball type media in my filter for the bacteria. Do I need to build-up a bacteria colony in my filter for a planted tank or will the plants take care of the ammonia, NO2 and NO3? I have only five fish in the tank and not very densly planted tank. My main concern right now is to get the plants growing while keeping the fish healthy. |
Cycling and Bio-Filter in Planted Tank
Dogma Discharge wrote:
Apparently having a *heavily* planted tank will buffer the cycle process but IMO it is very necessary to have a filter with loads of bio and mechanical media. Seeing that you have little plants at this stage I would recommend you get a filter, Aquaclears are my favourite, in my years of keeping fish these HOB filters do a spiffy job. -- Kind Regards Cameron "Shorty" wrote in message ups.com... I am debating whether I need to put any bio-ball type media in my filter for the bacteria. Do I need to build-up a bacteria colony in my filter for a planted tank or will the plants take care of the ammonia, NO2 and NO3? I have only five fish in the tank and not very densly planted tank. My main concern right now is to get the plants growing while keeping the fish healthy. If you only have a few plants, add the bio balls. If 50% of the gravel or more is covered with fast-growing plants, you can start reducing the amount of biofiltration. At 80% of the gravel covered in mature, fast-growing plants, you can consider removing the filter entirely and replacing it with a prefiltered powerhead. I've already done this in one of my tanks and will probably do it for another - it's nice not to have to do anything but fertilize and change water. ;-) -- Elaine T __ http://eethomp.com/fish.html '__ rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com |
Cycling and Bio-Filter in Planted Tank
So, you basically move the water around with the powerhead without any
filtration? That's cool. I suppose I need to wait and get my bio-filtration going until my plants are more established and dense. It would be great to run a tank with plants as the only filter. thanks for the info! |
Cycling and Bio-Filter in Planted Tank
Shorty wrote:
So, you basically move the water around with the powerhead without any filtration? Yep. Or an empty filter, or an airstone for small tanks where I'm using Flourish Excel. That's cool. I suppose I need to wait and get my bio-filtration going until my plants are more established and dense. Yes. Don't try it without lots of established plants. It would be great to run a tank with plants as the only filter. thanks for the info! You're welcome. It's a lot of fun to get a balanced tank going. I tend to consider removing the filter in lightly stocked tanks with small, fully grown fish where I can feed very lightly. I wait until the plants are growing well enough that nitrate goes to zero if I don't add any. Then I remove the biomedia from the filter gradually, testing for ammonia as I go. Once the filter is empty, you can use it for water circulation or switch to a powerhead. You do have to keep the plants healthy. If their growth slows down, you no longer have the safety net of a filter. -- Elaine T __ http://eethomp.com/fish.html '__ rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com |
Cycling and Bio-Filter in Planted Tank
Shorty wrote,
I am debating whether I need to put any bio-ball type media in my filter for the bacteria. Do I need to build-up a bacteria colony in my filter for a planted tank or will the plants take care of the ammonia, NO2 and NO3? A heavily planted tank and a lite bio-load you might get away without a bio-filter. But, you might have to do more water changes more often. Keep in mind that ammonia and nitrites are not the only thing a filter is needed for. You still have DOCs (dissolved organic compounds) and solid particulate waste to deal with. A build-up of eather, your water quality slowly deteriorates. I think my tanks are pleasant to look at because they are heavily planted, but they are *fish* tanks. As for as filter media goes - there is three things to look for; SSA (Specific Surface Area), void space and cleanability. Gravel used for a filter media has a surface area of about 100 to 200 sq. meters per cubic meter, pood void space, and really hard to clean - making it (at best) a poor filter media. Plastic has 250 to 300 SSA, ceramic 300 to 350 SSA, matting 350 to 400 SSA, and sponge foam 400 to 500 SSA, void space just right, and really easy to clean. Why spend the $s on plastic or ceramic bio-ball type filter media when a much better media is cheaper (sponge foam)? .................. Frank |
Cycling and Bio-Filter in Planted Tank
On 26 Jan 2006 05:37:57 -0800, "Shorty"
wrote: I am debating whether I need to put any bio-ball type media in my filter for the bacteria. Do I need to build-up a bacteria colony in my filter for a planted tank or will the plants take care of the ammonia, NO2 and NO3? I have only five fish in the tank and not very densly planted tank. My main concern right now is to get the plants growing while keeping the fish healthy. There seems to be different opinions on the subject. I pulled my 4 bio wheels as they were not turning without constant cleaning of the filters. Further, I don't even turn the filters off anymore, but pull a cartridge and substitute a clean one. I have never lost my bacteria. All 5 of my tanks are planted with dense fish populations, that is more than 1 inch per gallon. dick |
Cycling and Bio-Filter in Planted Tank
Dick wrote,
I pulled my 4 bio wheels as they were not turning without constant cleaning of the filters. Ever check your DOC levels? .........pull a cartridge and substitute a clean one. I have never lost my bacteria. All 5 of my tanks are planted with dense fish populations, that is more than 1 inch per gallon. It only takes one sq. meter of surface area with a bio-film to metabolise nearly one gram of ammonia per day. Filters should remove *all* three forms of pollution; dissolved compounds such as ammonia, inorganic pollutants such as phosphate and DOCs, and solid particulate waste. By removing all the filtering media at once and replacing it with new, you *are* loosing all the bacteria within your filter. Your filter becomes nothing but a machanical filter, removing some of the solid particulate waste, like a pre-filter. If the cartridge, now your pre-filter isn't cleaned or replaced at least weekly, the solid waste decomposes within the media and is pumped back into your tank as dissolved pollutants.DOCs start to turn the water yellow over time and the water quality drops, unless you do a *lot* of water changing. Mean while, the heterotroph bacteria that should be in the filter, is now in your tank at high levels, along with ectoparasites such as flukes and protozoa which thrive in high organic loaded water. High organics also stress the fishs immune system and robs the oxygen from the water. Just my opinion................... Frank |
Cycling and Bio-Filter in Planted Tank
"Frank" wrote in message ups.com... Dick wrote, I pulled my 4 bio wheels as they were not turning without constant cleaning of the filters. Ever check your DOC levels? ======================== A friend told me small snails would clog her bio-wheel filters. I can't picture this since I never used them. They were probably going after the bacterial coating. She finally replaced them with Aquaclears that I recommended. -- Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995... Aquariums since 1952 My Pond & Aquarium Pages: http://tinyurl.com/9do58 Troll Information: http://tinyurl.com/9zbh ~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o |
Cycling and Bio-Filter in Planted Tank
The only thing plants don't remove from your list is solid particulate
waste and much of that settles in the root zone. A prefilter takes care of anything floating in the water. |
Cycling and Bio-Filter in Planted Tank
Altum wrote,
The only thing plants don't remove from your list is solid particulate waste and much of that settles in the root zone. Plants do not remove inorganic pollutants such as DOCs (Dissolved Organic Compounds = uneaten foods and fish waste) from the water column. As a matter of fact, a 20% weekly water change still leaves about 30 days of accumulated DOC pollutants in the tank. DOC levels can be determined by comparing the differences between a chemical hardness test and the TDS (total dissolved solid) reading from a conductivity meter. As the DOCs start to accumulate over time, the water starts to turn yellow and the water quality starts to drop. A prefilter takes care of anything floating in the water. Very little solid waste should enter the bio-section. A pre-filter traps this waste so it can't, or shouldn't. But, if the pre-filter isn't cleaned at least a couple of times a week, the current (gph - flow rate) within the filter dissolves the solids (DOCs) much quicker than if they were left within the tank. As it is, left within the pre-filter, the filter becomes the source of organic pollution and is then pumped back into the tank. solid particulate waste and much of that settles in the root zone. Pathogenic bacteria such as Aermonas and Pseudomonas bacteria break down solids and are actually opportunistic Heterotroph bacteria. If solid waste is left to accumulate within the tank their numbers grow. Once their numbers are high enough and conditions are right, opportunistic pathogens turn their attention to the fish. This happens way more than people think - one of the things it's called is Fin and Tail Rot! ................ Frank |
Cycling and Bio-Filter in Planted Tank
Frank wrote: Dick wrote, I pulled my 4 bio wheels as they were not turning without constant cleaning of the filters. Ever check your DOC levels? .........pull a cartridge and substitute a clean one. I have never lost my bacteria. All 5 of my tanks are planted with dense fish populations, that is more than 1 inch per gallon. It only takes one sq. meter of surface area with a bio-film to metabolise nearly one gram of ammonia per day. Filters should remove *all* three forms of pollution; dissolved compounds such as ammonia, inorganic pollutants such as phosphate and DOCs, and solid particulate waste. By removing all the filtering media at once and replacing it with new, you *are* loosing all the bacteria within your filter. Your filter becomes nothing but a machanical filter, removing some of the solid particulate waste, like a pre-filter. If the cartridge, now your pre-filter isn't cleaned or replaced at least weekly, the solid waste decomposes within the media and is pumped back into your tank as dissolved pollutants.DOCs start to turn the water yellow over time and the water quality drops, unless you do a *lot* of water changing. Mean while, the heterotroph bacteria that should be in the filter, is now in your tank at high levels, along with ectoparasites such as flukes and protozoa which thrive in high organic loaded water. High organics also stress the fishs immune system and robs the oxygen from the water. Just my opinion................... Frank well, the bottles of liquid fertilizers tell you to remove the carbon from filters. i have a hangon filter, a biowheel 350 or something, i removed the wheels to reduce surface turbulence. is there a certain time that it is "safe" to put the carbon back in? (safe meaning that it wont absorb up the fertilizers). also, melafix requires taking out the carbon too. do you recommend using something other than carbon? my filter has extra pockets to fill up with whatever media you want. should i put something in there, is anything needed? my tank is 3 weeks old, moderately to heavily planted, ~15 fish, mostly loaches |
Cycling and Bio-Filter in Planted Tank
fusQuanto wrote,
well, the bottles of liquid fertilizers tell you to remove the carbon from filters.......... also, melafix requires taking out the carbon too. is there a certain time that it is "safe" to put the carbon back in? The only time carbon is needed is to remove dyes, medications and odors. i have a hangon filter, a biowheel 350 or something............. The break down time of DOCs is the most time consuming, so bio-filtering is improved the longer the polluted water is held within the media. With the amount of SSA (specific surface area) on a bio-wheel, it makes them hard to beat. Plus they hold the polluted water much longer than just being pumped through a filter. do you recommend using something other than carbon? my filter has extra pockets to fill up with whatever media you want. should i put something in there, is anything needed? There are three major factors affecting filter media; SSA, void space and cleanability. Out of all the diferent filter medias (gravel, plastic, ceramic, matting and foam sponge), foam sponge has the most SSA, best void space and easyer to clean! I use those green or brown 3M scrub pads for pre-filter media within my filters and 2 or 3 cut-to-fit 3/4" foam sponges. Pre filters are cleaned at least every other day. That keeps those 2 or 3 bio-media foam sponges clean enough that I don't have to squeeze them out in the change water but once or twice a month............ Frank |
Cycling and Bio-Filter in Planted Tank
Frank wrote: fusQuanto wrote, well, the bottles of liquid fertilizers tell you to remove the carbon from filters.......... also, melafix requires taking out the carbon too. is there a certain time that it is "safe" to put the carbon back in? The only time carbon is needed is to remove dyes, medications and odors. i have a hangon filter, a biowheel 350 or something............. The break down time of DOCs is the most time consuming, so bio-filtering is improved the longer the polluted water is held within the media. With the amount of SSA (specific surface area) on a bio-wheel, it makes them hard to beat. Plus they hold the polluted water much longer than just being pumped through a filter. do you recommend using something other than carbon? my filter has extra pockets to fill up with whatever media you want. should i put something in there, is anything needed? There are three major factors affecting filter media; SSA, void space and cleanability. Out of all the diferent filter medias (gravel, plastic, ceramic, matting and foam sponge), foam sponge has the most SSA, best void space and easyer to clean! I use those green or brown 3M scrub pads for pre-filter media within my filters and 2 or 3 cut-to-fit 3/4" foam sponges. Pre filters are cleaned at least every other day. That keeps those 2 or 3 bio-media foam sponges clean enough that I don't have to squeeze them out in the change water but once or twice a month............ Frank what filter do you have? |
Cycling and Bio-Filter in Planted Tank
In article .com,
Frank wrote: fusQuanto wrote, well, the bottles of liquid fertilizers tell you to remove the carbon from filters.......... That makes no sense. Who says this? -- Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org 1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home page: http://rs79.vrx.net 633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net |
Cycling and Bio-Filter in Planted Tank
fusQuanto wrote,
what filter do you have? I have a 5 gal. tank of neons in a spair bedroom for the grandkids when they visit. It always has an AquaClear Mini (100gph) on it. One of the 90 gal. tanks for a couple of months now, has had two Marineland's bio-wheel 330s - great filters. Last week I put two AquaClear 500s on the other 90 gal. tank. A bit of an overkill (each 500gph), but not as bad as I thought they were going to be (so for). I run tests and evaluate aquarium equipment and products for a wholesale house and a couple of pet stores. ............. Frank |
Cycling and Bio-Filter in Planted Tank
Richard Sexton wrote: In article .com, Frank wrote: fusQuanto wrote, well, the bottles of liquid fertilizers tell you to remove the carbon from filters.......... That makes no sense. Who says this? actually its only the melafix that says it, not the ferts. i figured the ferts would have the same problem too because the carbon is soaking up the nutrients? no? im not a chemistry nor biology major so perhaps you can shed some light. thx |
Cycling and Bio-Filter in Planted Tank
fusQuanto wrote,
i figured the ferts would have the same problem too because the carbon is soaking up the nutrients? no? That makes no sense. Who says this? Makes sence to me - activated carbon removes; ammonia, nitrite, organic compounds such as acids, phenolics, proteins, carbohydrates, hormones, drugs, chemicals, trace elements, and natural metabolic compounds. I know it removes heavy metals, it sucked the iron right out of my liquid fertilizer! .................... Frank |
Cycling and Bio-Filter in Planted Tank
Frank wrote:
fusQuanto wrote, i figured the ferts would have the same problem too because the carbon is soaking up the nutrients? no? That makes no sense. Who says this? Makes sence to me - activated carbon removes; ammonia, nitrite, organic compounds such as acids, phenolics, proteins, carbohydrates, hormones, drugs, chemicals, trace elements, and natural metabolic compounds. I know it removes heavy metals, it sucked the iron right out of my liquid fertilizer! ................... Frank I accidentally left some carbon in one of my planted tanks - result was the plants were decimated.... Gill |
Cycling and Bio-Filter in Planted Tank
In article ,
fusQuanto wrote: That makes no sense. Who says this? actually its only the melafix that says it, not the ferts. i figured the ferts would have the same problem too because the carbon is soaking up the nutrients? no? im not a chemistry nor biology major so perhaps you can shed some light. thx Ok sure. Carbon filters out long-chain organics. Small molocules pass tight through. In practical terms if you add say methylene blue to the water and it's dark blue, carbon will filter that out quite quickly. But, if you were say to add salt to the tank, carbon wouldn't touch it. It does not remove salt. There are no hard and fast rules about this, but in a very rough sense, rely on carbon not to remove anything transparent, but any chemical "big" enouh to have color - well that will be filtered out by carbon. Melafix is good stuff, but it smells and looks like something that would be filtered out by carbon. Not so fertilizers. Having said that there are people who believe carbon will take things ouf of the water like copper, iron and the like and its no good for plants. This is slightly true. Carbon will remove minicsule amnounts of these thigs, so if you never change water and use carbon for months the plants may suffer. OTOH I've done this and if they suffer it's really not so you'd notice. -- Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org 1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home page: http://rs79.vrx.net 633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net |
Cycling and Bio-Filter in Planted Tank
In article . com,
Frank wrote: the ferts would have the same problem too because the carbon is soaking up the nutrients? no? That makes no sense. Who says this? Makes sence to me - activated carbon removes; ammonia, nitrite, Nope. -- Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org 1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home page: http://rs79.vrx.net 633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net |
Cycling and Bio-Filter in Planted Tank
Frank wrote:
Altum wrote, The only thing plants don't remove from your list is solid particulate waste and much of that settles in the root zone. Plants do not remove inorganic pollutants such as DOCs (Dissolved Organic Compounds = uneaten foods and fish waste) from the water column. As a matter of fact, a 20% weekly water change still leaves about 30 days of accumulated DOC pollutants in the tank. DOC levels can be determined by comparing the differences between a chemical hardness test and the TDS (total dissolved solid) reading from a conductivity meter. As the DOCs start to accumulate over time, the water starts to turn yellow and the water quality starts to drop. Actually, I've never had the water in a planted tank turn yellow the way it does in a fish-only tank. That's why I thought they removed DOCs. As a general rule, plants use pretty much every molecule they can "get their hands on." I don't have access to a conductivity meter so I'll have to take your word for the measurements. |
Cycling and Bio-Filter in Planted Tank
Richard Sexton wrote,
Nope. OK, OK - I got carried away, your right :-( , carbon does not remove transparent inorganics! ............ Frank |
Cycling and Bio-Filter in Planted Tank
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Cycling and Bio-Filter in Planted Tank
I"ve read the above three or four times and I'd like to condense and
paraphrase it for my own clarity. Carbon in a filter will not filter clear liquid plant food, including the Leaf Zone Iron and Potassium that I add once a week to my planted tanks. The miniscule amount of trace elements that carbon may possibly remove will be replenished by the fresh water introduced in regular weekly 20% water changes. Is this correct? If so, you've just saved me valuable time that would have been taken up reading every plant book I own from cover to cover for the umteenth time. If this is not correct then it's back to square one. Basically corect. It will absolutely not remove any Potassium Nitrate, Potassium Monophosphate or Potassium Sulphate which are the traditional sources of N, P and K. Iron and trace elements? Nope, they won't be filtered out either. Wel, ABOUT that iron. It's usually chelated and the chelate is a long chain organic and it seems likely this can be filtered out, to some extent at least, by carbon. Although how much I do not know. I *think* it's pretty negligable and if you dose regularly it should not be a problem. Now, my water comes out of the tap at 3.0 ppm unchealted. Tom Barr's target is .3 ppm. However if you look in the Dupla book "The Optimum Aquarium" they measure the water the took crypts from in Asia at 3.0 ppm unchelated iron and 3.0 ppm chelated iron. I change water a lot and have good luck with crypts. So I'm the wrong person to ask about iron! Iron test kits (unlke nitrate test kits) are pretty accurate so at worst you can measure for yourself what the carbon is doing. -- Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org 1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home page: http://rs79.vrx.net 633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net |
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