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I'm planning on going to buy some clown loaches tomorrow. Well,
probably clown loaches - this is my eldest's choice; we'll look at the yo-yos and zebra loaches too, and I'll explain the pros and cons, but in the end, it's his birthday money, so it's up to him. Anyway - the store we're going to says they quarantine all their stock for two weeks before selling it. In that case, do most of you still quarantine after purchase? If we're going to quarantine, how long would you quarantine for? If we're doing that, I'll be filling my 60-litre tank tomorrow morning, and putting in the heater, but I won't move the filter across from the 125-litre until we get home with the loaches. I know a 60-litre isn't big enough for three clown loaches long-term, but it would be adequate for quarantine, wouldn't it? I've never quarantined anything before - what should I put in a quarantine tank? I assume gravel - not a problem, I've got spare. I know clowns like to have hiding-places; should I pick up an extra rock or two to provide that in the quarantine tank? Anything else I should know? -- FishNoob |
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"FishNoob" wrote in message ... I'm planning on going to buy some clown loaches tomorrow. Well, probably clown loaches - this is my eldest's choice; we'll look at the yo-yos and zebra loaches too, and I'll explain the pros and cons, but in the end, it's his birthday money, so it's up to him. Anyway - the store we're going to says they quarantine all their stock for two weeks before selling it. In that case, do most of you still quarantine after purchase? YES!!!! Have you asked to see their quarantine facilities? I never knew a store to have quarantine tanks for all new arrivals in the back-room somewhere. They're unboxed and the bags are floated in the tanks until they have time to open them and release the fish - FOR IMMEDIATE SALE. If we're going to quarantine, how long would you quarantine for? If we're doing that, I'll be filling my 60-litre tank tomorrow morning, and putting in the heater, but I won't move the filter across from the 125-litre until we get home with the loaches. I know a 60-litre isn't big enough for three clown loaches long-term, but it would be adequate for quarantine, wouldn't it? I quarantine new fish for 14 days, another 7 if I suspect or see some problem. I know others disagree but while in quarantine I almost always treat them for parasites using Quick-Cure or Aquari-Sol. I've never quarantined anything before - what should I put in a quarantine tank? I assume gravel - not a problem, I've got spare. I know clowns like to have hiding-places; should I pick up an extra rock or two to provide that in the quarantine tank? My Q. tank has gravel and plants plus a few rocks and a small AC filter of course. Anything else I should know? Just watch them closely for flashing or anything unusual. -- Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995... Aquariums since 1952 My Pond & Aquarium Pages: http://tinyurl.com/9do58 ~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o |
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FishNoob wrote:
I'm planning on going to buy some clown loaches tomorrow. Well, probably clown loaches - this is my eldest's choice; we'll look at the yo-yos and zebra loaches too, and I'll explain the pros and cons, but in the end, it's his birthday money, so it's up to him. Anyway - the store we're going to says they quarantine all their stock for two weeks before selling it. In that case, do most of you still quarantine after purchase? If we're going to quarantine, how long would you quarantine for? If we're doing that, I'll be filling my 60-litre tank tomorrow morning, and putting in the heater, but I won't move the filter across from the 125-litre until we get home with the loaches. I know a 60-litre isn't big enough for three clown loaches long-term, but it would be adequate for quarantine, wouldn't it? I've never quarantined anything before - what should I put in a quarantine tank? I assume gravel - not a problem, I've got spare. I know clowns like to have hiding-places; should I pick up an extra rock or two to provide that in the quarantine tank? Anything else I should know? My experience is that in the UK (and you are in UK or Ireland aren't you if I remember correctly?), they don't QT as such but keep them off sale for a period of time to make sure that there are no obvious problems and the fish acclimatise to the local water conditions - usually around a week...maybe not all places do this but the ones I use do, and it sounds like you have the same sort of thing in place... With Clowns I never buy them straight afer they go on sale - I tend to pay a few trips and check them each time before plunging in...if they've been in the shop for a few weeks, which is very stressful for them, with no obvious signs of ich/white spot I will buy them - I've adopted this policy after losing a number of newly purchased Clowns to Ich....If they have even one white spot don't buy any of them... Right now, I have 4 Clown Loaches in QT...it is a normally set up tank - plants, gravel and driftwood for them to hide under - it is 15 gall...it also contains other fish - but experience has shown me that Clowns also benefit from "dither fish" when settling in...3 have been in there for around 5 weeks - although shy they seem fine - the other has been in there around 6 days (bought from the same supplier and the same batch of fish - he had just grown bigger and I couldn't resist). The fish will move into their permanent home over the next few days... The reason I am doing this is because it is a lot easier to treat a small tank for ich than the larger community tank....and theoratically easier to spot ich - however mine are so good at hiding it makes this a little harder... So give it a go, make sure there are plenty of hiding spaces for them and keep any eye on them for at least a couple of weeks. Also ensure the water quality is spot on as I've noticed sensitivity to even the smallest trace of nitrites... Good luck Gill |
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"FishNoob" wrote in message ... In article , lid says... YES!!!! Have you asked to see their quarantine facilities? I never knew a store to have quarantine tanks for all new arrivals in the back-room somewhere. They're unboxed and the bags are floated in the tanks until they have time to open them and release the fish - FOR IMMEDIATE SALE. I do actually believe that this store does what they say. They're not part of a chain, they don't advertise, they're not well-known outside aquarium-keeper circles - I didn't even know they existed until a few months after we got an aquarium. The store is not in an expensive part of town - kind of off the beaten track a bit. They've been established for many years. They don't have huge neon signs or anything like that. IOW, they're not some flashy stack-em-high-sell- em-cheap outlet. You are very fortunate to find a store like that. In my area there are few non-chain stores and one is so bad I seldom venture inside to see (and smell) what they have floating in their tanks. :-( They've got a very good reputation - everything I've heard or read about them has been 100% positive. I've visited the store twice and found the staff are all very interested and knowledgeable, and not pushing to sell. They have a wide range in stock, from tiny shrimp to two-foot-long stuff - all in reasonably- sized tanks. That's why I'm going further to buy from them rather than a local pet shop :-) That's an excellent idea. So I'm not concerned about them failing to do what they say they do - I just want to know what I should be doing, given the situation :-) I've had such bad experiences not quarantining that I quarantine everything from everywhere. -- Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995... Aquariums since 1952 My Pond & Aquarium Pages: http://tinyurl.com/9do58 ~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o |
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FishNoob wrote:
In article , lid says... YES!!!! Have you asked to see their quarantine facilities? I never knew a store to have quarantine tanks for all new arrivals in the back-room somewhere. They're unboxed and the bags are floated in the tanks until they have time to open them and release the fish - FOR IMMEDIATE SALE. I do actually believe that this store does what they say. They're not part of a chain, they don't advertise, they're not well-known outside aquarium-keeper circles - I didn't even know they existed until a few months after we got an aquarium. The store is not in an expensive part of town - kind of off the beaten track a bit. They've been established for many years. They don't have huge neon signs or anything like that. IOW, they're not some flashy stack-em-high-sell- em-cheap outlet. They've got a very good reputation - everything I've heard or read about them has been 100% positive. I've visited the store twice and found the staff are all very interested and knowledgeable, and not pushing to sell. They have a wide range in stock, from tiny shrimp to two-foot-long stuff - all in reasonably- sized tanks. That's why I'm going further to buy from them rather than a local pet shop :-) So I'm not concerned about them failing to do what they say they do - I just want to know what I should be doing, given the situation :-) One thing, to remember, is that in the UK we have different laws and regulations not only regarding the sale of livestock but also in terms of trading standards - you cannot claim to do something that you do not...so if this place says they QT their fish then they do precisely that or risk being prosecuted.... Gill |
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On Thu, 09 Mar 2006 22:05:14 +0000, Gill Passman
wrote: My experience is that in the UK (and you are in UK or Ireland aren't you if I remember correctly?), they don't QT as such but keep them off sale for a period of time to make sure that there are no obvious problems and the fish acclimatise to the local water conditions - usually around a week...maybe not all places do this but the ones I use do, and it sounds like you have the same sort of thing in place... With Clowns I never buy them straight afer they go on sale - I tend to pay a few trips and check them each time before plunging in...if they've been in the shop for a few weeks, which is very stressful for them, with no obvious signs of ich/white spot I will buy them - I've adopted this policy after losing a number of newly purchased Clowns to Ich....If they have even one white spot don't buy any of them... Right now, I have 4 Clown Loaches in QT...it is a normally set up tank - plants, gravel and driftwood for them to hide under - it is 15 gall...it also contains other fish - but experience has shown me that Clowns also benefit from "dither fish" when settling in...3 have been in there for around 5 weeks - although shy they seem fine - the other has been in there around 6 days (bought from the same supplier and the same batch of fish - he had just grown bigger and I couldn't resist). The fish will move into their permanent home over the next few days... The reason I am doing this is because it is a lot easier to treat a small tank for ich than the larger community tank....and theoratically easier to spot ich - however mine are so good at hiding it makes this a little harder... So give it a go, make sure there are plenty of hiding spaces for them and keep any eye on them for at least a couple of weeks. Also ensure the water quality is spot on as I've noticed sensitivity to even the smallest trace of nitrites... Good luck Gill I recently had a discussion on this with Vance, my lfs. His water comes from his well, it is hard as a rock and alkaline. My water is as soft as a baby's sleeper pajamas and settles at 6.6-6.8 after a couple of days in the tank. He opens at noon each day, and noon is when I generally visit him. So we talk while we wander through the store, turning on lights, checking the tanks, pulling out the inevitable floaters, usually just one or two, sometimes none, and when there are more than 2, or if it's some in the same tank as yesterday, he slaps a Not For Sale sign on the tank and medicates it. I often get him to order fish especially for me, and I asked him what he thought of the idea of transferring my fish directly from the shipping bags and bypassing the process of acclimating them to his tanks, then bringing them home to acclimate to my tanks a few days later. It was a good, give and take, discussion - and we never did come to a total agreement, I think we left it at deciding on a case by case basis. My next "special order" is some Espie Rasboras, we'll figure it out when they arrive. -- Mister Gardener |
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FishNoob wrote,
the store we're going to says they quarantine all their stock for two weeks before selling it. That's how it used to be here in the US some 40 years ago - any more I don't know of any fish store that quarantines. In that case, do most of you still quarantine after purchase? If we're going to quarantine, how long would you quarantine for? If in fact they do quarantine for two weeks, do they do any kind of preventive treatment(?), or do they just treat the fish that shows symptoms of a disease or parasites? The reason I ask, wild cought and pond raised fish often have red worms (camallanus), that may not even show up for 3 or 4 weeks. I do a quarantine preventive treatment; Feed a medicated food for 10 days - 20% water changes per day for 4 to 5 days, add a teaspoon of salt per 5 gals. (stimulates slime coat), two day treatment with Fluke-Tabs (treats flukes and worms), and half dose treatment of Rid-Ich for 10 days (for skin parasites). Quarantine preventive treatment takes 3 weeks............ Frank |
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"FishNoob" wrote in message
... I'm planning on going to buy some clown loaches tomorrow. Well, probably clown loaches - this is my eldest's choice; we'll look at the yo-yos and zebra loaches too, and I'll explain the pros and cons, but in the end, it's his birthday money, so it's up to him. Anyway - the store we're going to says they quarantine all their stock for two weeks before selling it. In that case, do most of you still quarantine after purchase? I think you will have to use your discretion. What's your emotional and financial investment? $4,000 Arowanas get quarantined longer than $40 Discus who get quarantined longer than $4 Angelfish ;~). If the tank is all new, then the whole tank is the quarantine (that's what I usually like to do). If we're going to quarantine, how long would you quarantine for? Three months is nice ;~). The longer the quarantine, the more you are screening against. Waiting 2-3 days screens for transport shock. Waiting a couple of weeks catches most stuff. Waiting 3 weeks is probably the most efficient in terms of time and what you are likely to screen for. Do keep a close watch on them, their eating, poop is normal, color and shine normal, fins normal, and their activity level is normal for their species. Incidentally, 3 months is what I usually give new arrivals before I move them around my place, so that's where that number comes from. I've never quarantined anything before - what should I put in a quarantine tank? I assume gravel - not a problem, I've got spare. I know clowns like to have hiding-places; should I pick up an extra rock or two to provide that in the quarantine tank? Never gravel. Q-tanks are ordinarily bare-bottom (why add millions of little stones for diseases to hide in, and then there is the bother of sterilizing all the gravel if there was a disease, makes no sense). Q-tanks often use sponge filters, easy to seed, move, and later sterilize if neccesary. Other filters are fine. Just keep in mind the difficulty they represent if you need to sterilize them. Keep it simple. For decorations, you want lots (for them to hide in and be comfortable) and you want none (so you can easily see them to inspect their condition). To satisfy both conditions is a little tricky ;~). I often use no decorations and I keep the tank in very dark conditions (compromise for their comfort). Alternately, I will drop in stuff which is not very porous (easy to sterilize) and that I can remove relatively easily (ie: a couple of black ABS tubes, or whatever suits the particular fish) for twice daily inspections. I hope there were some ideas in that for you. -- www.NetMax.tk Anything else I should know? -- FishNoob |
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On Fri, 10 Mar 2006 11:28:36 -0000, FishNoob
wrote: The young'n's birthday was actually in November - he's been waiting this long to spend that gift certificate! He's been very understanding about waiting until the tank was ready for more fish though - and of course it's given us lots more time to research and plan :-) That's some special kid. If someone gave me birthday money on November 15, it would be spent before November 16 is over. And I'm a grownup, not a kid. -- Mister Gardener |
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I'll second that....My neighborhood fish store is not a chain (closing this
month) a older lady owns it she opened it after she retired for something to do, and I kind of talked to her the other day about her closing she said she was not doing to good with business, and I am not the kind of person to say "hay your store sucks" but I did tell her I had many problems with fish I bought there, and she said the ones you just got in the last few months (she said because she has not been as involved) I said no its been all of them. She said its probably because I don't quarantine my fish I don't have the room, so there is much more change of disease, she also was very honest in saying if someone comes in and my tank is blue from being treated they will not buy fish from me at all, even in the clean tanks, I said I don't know I would be more likely to because then I know your on top of it instead of thinking you don't care what you are selling. she was nice about it Nikki "Koi-Lo" wrote in message ... "FishNoob" wrote in message ... In article , lid says... YES!!!! Have you asked to see their quarantine facilities? I never knew a store to have quarantine tanks for all new arrivals in the back-room somewhere. They're unboxed and the bags are floated in the tanks until they have time to open them and release the fish - FOR IMMEDIATE SALE. I do actually believe that this store does what they say. They're not part of a chain, they don't advertise, they're not well-known outside aquarium-keeper circles - I didn't even know they existed until a few months after we got an aquarium. The store is not in an expensive part of town - kind of off the beaten track a bit. They've been established for many years. They don't have huge neon signs or anything like that. IOW, they're not some flashy stack-em-high-sell- em-cheap outlet. You are very fortunate to find a store like that. In my area there are few non-chain stores and one is so bad I seldom venture inside to see (and smell) what they have floating in their tanks. :-( They've got a very good reputation - everything I've heard or read about them has been 100% positive. I've visited the store twice and found the staff are all very interested and knowledgeable, and not pushing to sell. They have a wide range in stock, from tiny shrimp to two-foot-long stuff - all in reasonably- sized tanks. That's why I'm going further to buy from them rather than a local pet shop :-) That's an excellent idea. So I'm not concerned about them failing to do what they say they do - I just want to know what I should be doing, given the situation :-) I've had such bad experiences not quarantining that I quarantine everything from everywhere. -- Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995... Aquariums since 1952 My Pond & Aquarium Pages: http://tinyurl.com/9do58 ~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o |
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"Nikki" wrote in message ... I'll second that....My neighborhood fish store is not a chain (closing this month) a older lady owns it she opened it after she retired for something to do, and I kind of talked to her the other day about her closing she said she was not doing to good with business, My nearest town had several mom & pop pet shops try to make a go of it over the years. Most of these stores did take good care of the fish, medicate them, guarantee them etc. but people would not pay the prices they had to charge to stay in business. The average Joe Blow went to *you know where* to get fish for 1/3rd less the price the private stores had to charge. Never mind they were sick and diseased, they were CHEAP! All these M&Ps closed in less than 2 years. One only lasted about 6 months. However we now have a brand spanking new PetSupermarket and they're thriving! The fish are selling as fast as she gets them in (several older women run the place). and I am not the kind of person to say "hay your store sucks" but I did tell her I had many problems with fish I bought there, and she said the ones you just got in the last few months (she said because she has not been as involved) I said no its been all of them. She said its probably because I don't quarantine my fish I don't have the room, so there is much more change of disease, she also was very honest in saying if someone comes in and my tank is blue from being treated they will not buy fish from me at all, But there are colorless medications such as Aquari-Sol that no one would know was in the water. How could she not know that? The wholesalers could have told her what to use that works and is invisible. I think some people just don't have enough knowledge to make a go of these pet stores. That real bad place I mention here stays in business because they sell other pets besides fish. I wish they'd just concentrate on the birds and small animals and get rid of all their diseased tanks of fish. even in the clean tanks, I said I don't know I would be more likely to because then I know your on top of it instead of thinking you don't care what you are selling. she was nice about it Nikki -- Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995... Aquariums since 1952 My Pond & Aquarium Pages: http://tinyurl.com/9do58 ~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o |
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"IDzine01" wrote in message oups.com... I quarantine for 4 weeks before introducing the fish to a community tank. If they show any signs of illness, I treat and start the 4 week quarantining period again. My QT is always bare bottom. Otherwise you will just have to throw the gravel away and that seems like a waste. No you don't. :-) Rinse it good to remove any mulm and either boil it for 20 minutes on the stove top or line an old baking dish with cheap tinfoil and bake it at 200F for 20 minutes or so. Buy your gravel at Home Depot or Lowe's as $3 a 50lb sack. It comes in a nice natural brown color. I mean, if the fish are sick you're not going to use that gravel again on other fish, right? I usually add in some java moss for places to hide and to provide a soft bottom then toss it when quarantine is over. -- Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995... Aquariums since 1952 My Pond & Aquarium Pages: http://tinyurl.com/9do58 ~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o |
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FishNoob wrote:
I'm planning on going to buy some clown loaches tomorrow. Well, probably clown loaches - this is my eldest's choice; we'll look at the yo-yos and zebra loaches too, and I'll explain the pros and cons, but in the end, it's his birthday money, so it's up to him. Anyway - the store we're going to says they quarantine all their stock for two weeks before selling it. In that case, do most of you still quarantine after purchase? If we're going to quarantine, how long would you quarantine for? If we're doing that, I'll be filling my 60-litre tank tomorrow morning, and putting in the heater, but I won't move the filter across from the 125-litre until we get home with the loaches. I know a 60-litre isn't big enough for three clown loaches long-term, but it would be adequate for quarantine, wouldn't it? I've never quarantined anything before - what should I put in a quarantine tank? I assume gravel - not a problem, I've got spare. I know clowns like to have hiding-places; should I pick up an extra rock or two to provide that in the quarantine tank? Anything else I should know? I don't think anyone mentioned pieces of PVC pipe for hiding places. It's cheap, easy to sterilize when you're done, and works great for shy fish like loaches. Be sure to put in more pieces of pipe than there are fish. -- Put the word aquaria in the subject to reply. Did you read the FAQ? http://faq.thekrib.com |
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"Koi-Lo" wrote in message
... "Nikki" wrote in message ... I'll second that....My neighborhood fish store is not a chain (closing this month) a older lady owns it she opened it after she retired for something to do, and I kind of talked to her the other day about her closing she said she was not doing to good with business, My nearest town had several mom & pop pet shops try to make a go of it over the years. Most of these stores did take good care of the fish, medicate them, guarantee them etc. but people would not pay the prices they had to charge to stay in business. The average Joe Blow went to *you know where* to get fish for 1/3rd less the price the private stores had to charge. Never mind they were sick and diseased, they were CHEAP! All these M&Ps closed in less than 2 years. One only lasted about 6 months. However we now have a brand spanking new PetSupermarket and they're thriving! The fish are selling as fast as she gets them in (several older women run the place). Koi-Lo, as soon as someone posts something about store quality, even something good about it, I can always count on you jumping in to tell us how bad your stores are, the clerks are ignorant and underpaid, and it won't get better because it is the American way. All this negativity is no good for you. Chill :o) I don't doubt what you see is happening where you are (Tennesee?), but there are thousands of gorgeous stores in North America. Forget your big chains, though even they have a few stand-out stores where you see the management is on the ball. Many of the smaller chains are doing very nicely. They know where they want to be, and are slowly moving that way (live plants in all the tanks, state-of-the-art filtration, rotating stock for disease control etc). Then there are many mom & pop stores doing their best, which is much better than the average home tank. Finally there are the specialty stores, who practice a husbandry beyond the average person's abilities because of the value of their stock, whether it is Discus, Arrowanas or Koi. At least you now have one good store which you can frequent. Try to stay out of all the others, especially that other one we both know about (W**-***t), it's bad for your health ;~). and I am not the kind of person to say "hay your store sucks" but I did tell her I had many problems with fish I bought there, and she said the ones you just got in the last few months (she said because she has not been as involved) I said no its been all of them. She said its probably because I don't quarantine my fish I don't have the room, so there is much more change of disease, she also was very honest in saying if someone comes in and my tank is blue from being treated they will not buy fish from me at all, But there are colorless medications such as Aquari-Sol that no one would know was in the water. How could she not know that? The wholesalers could have told her what to use that works and is invisible. I think some people just don't have enough knowledge to make a go of these pet stores. That real bad place I mention here stays in business because they sell other pets besides fish. I wish they'd just concentrate on the birds and small animals and get rid of all their diseased tanks of fish. A common store policy is to medicate with anything which is not detectable. I liked it when we got in dark-blue painted tanks. I could medicate just after closing, and the color would not be evident by morning. Many medications are not colorless (like fungus treatments), so then it was off to the back room quarantine tanks. I kept six Q-tanks running, and I would have 4 typically in operation, and sometimes I would double them up (fish from different tanks with different diseases, which were both covered by the meds in use. In an extreme case (the EUS discussed in another thread), I treated the display tank, but I took a sheet of black background and pasted it on the front of the wall tank with a sign "shhh hospital tank, fish may be sleeping". Most customers took it in stride and didn't hold it against us for having 'diseased' fish. A few said they were not coming back because of it. C'est la vie. The occasional kid pealed back a corner to look into the yellow water, but the fish were all swimming around quite oblivious to it. Anyways, my long winded point... not all meds are color-less. I think I have to learn brevity. -- www.NetMax.tk even in the clean tanks, I said I don't know I would be more likely to because then I know your on top of it instead of thinking you don't care what you are selling. she was nice about it Nikki -- Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995... Aquariums since 1952 My Pond & Aquarium Pages: http://tinyurl.com/9do58 ~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o |
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NetMax wrote,
how bad your stores are, the clerks are ignorant and underpaid, and it won't get better ...... I would agree there are a lot of stores out there like that, but not near as many as they were in the past - 15 to 40 years ago. Then there are many mom & pop stores doing their best, which is much better than the average home tank...... Finally there are the specialty stores, who practice a husbandry beyond the average person's abilities ........ This I agree with 100%. I beleave these stores are still much better than those small chains you talked about. "Many of the smaller chains are doing very nicely. They know where they want to be, and are slowly moving that way (live plants in all the tanks, state-of-the-art filtration, rotating stock for disease control etc)." Mainly because they hire people that want to learn or already know about keeping and treating fish. A common store policy is to medicate with anything which is not detectable.... Many medications are not colorless (like fungus treatments), so then it was off to the back room quarantine tanks. We did things a little different in our stores. The quarantine tanks in the back were for incomming shipments - all the fish went through a quarantine preventive _treatment_. This cut or losses from 20 to 25% down to 2 and 3%. Every once in a while, like any fish store, we did wind up with a "sick" tank up front in the store. We posted a sign stating the tank was closed, what disease the fish had, why, and how to treat the disease. Like you said, most customers took it in stride - many looked at the diseased fish and bought stand by medications for their home tank/s. With most of the better mom and pop stores there are always customers waiting for the owner to get there (opening time) and they see the fish the same as the owner. With the larger chain stores, the tanks are cleared of dead fish long before the store opens, so what you see isn't what you get most of the time. I know of two of the larger stores around here that do have healthy fish, and clerks that know what they are doing, but to look at their store, one couldn't tell the difference between them and the 'bad' stores. The only way to know the difference is to seek out the clerks that know what they are talking about.......... Frank |
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Moments before spontaneously combusting NetMax at
was heard opining: "Koi-Lo" wrote in message ... "Nikki" wrote in message ... I'll second that....My neighborhood fish store is not a chain (closing this month) a older lady owns it she opened it after she retired for something to do, and I kind of talked to her the other day about her closing she said she was not doing to good with business, ........... However we now have a brand spanking new PetSupermarket and they're thriving! The fish are selling as fast as she gets them in (several older women run the place). ================== Koi-Lo, as soon as someone posts something about store quality, even something good about it, I can always count on you jumping in to tell us how bad your stores are, the clerks are ignorant and underpaid, and it won't get better because it is the American way. All this negativity is no good for you. Chill :o) Hey, ya missed a few posts then! :-) I've mentioned the chains where I buy my fish *now* and am really pleased with them - but then I seldom ask the clerks anything. These chains have come a long way in the past 5 years as far as health and care of the fish go. The store once selling GF with gill-flukes now is feeding the GF oranges and zucchini's. I buy most of my GF there. We do have an excellent M&P store in Nashville I've spent a lot of money in. As for really BAD places it's just that one store..... *GAG*..... }((((+ I don't doubt what you see is happening where you are (Tennesee?), but there are thousands of gorgeous stores in North America. Forget your big chains, though even they have a few stand-out stores where you see the management is on the ball. Those chains *are* the ones that are succeeding HERE. For some reason the M&P places didn't last. That was the point. Not that they themselves were bad or stupid people,.... people would rather buy fish where they could get them cheaper in the other larger town with the chains (which weren't that great back then) or go to the Wally*Worlds (need I say more?). The chains and WM stores were too much competition. And getting to know a few of the owners while they were still in business it was obvious they loved dealing with the fish but simply weren't overly knowledgeable. I see people on these NGs with much more knowledge than those folks had - sincere as they may have been. Many of the smaller chains are doing very nicely. They know where they want to be, and are slowly moving that way (live plants in all the tanks, state-of-the-art filtration, rotating stock for disease control etc). Then there are many mom & pop stores doing their best, which is much better than the average home tank. Finally there are the specialty stores, who practice a husbandry beyond the average person's abilities because of the value of their stock, whether it is Discus, Arrowanas or Koi. We have one like that. That's where I buy most of my live plants and bought 90% of my koi. He even has UV lights the tank water runs through..... fantastic place! :-) At least you now have one good store which you can frequent. Try to stay out of all the others, especially that other one we both know about (W**-***t), it's bad for your health ;~). ........ I wish they'd just concentrate on the birds and small animals and get rid of all their diseased tanks of fish. A common store policy is to medicate with anything which is not detectable. I liked it when we got in dark-blue painted tanks. I could medicate just after closing, and the color would not be evident by morning. Many medications are not colorless (like fungus treatments), so then it was off to the back room quarantine tanks. I kept six Q-tanks running, and I would have 4 typically in operation, and sometimes I would double them up (fish from different tanks with different diseases, which were both covered by the meds in use. Which I think is great. I wish the chains allowed the stores to keep these Q or H (hospital) tanks in the back room. In an extreme case (the EUS discussed in another thread), I treated the display tank, but I took a sheet of black background and pasted it on the front of the wall tank with a sign "shhh hospital tank, fish may be sleeping". Most customers took it in stride and didn't hold it against us for having 'diseased' fish. A few said they were not coming back because of it. C'est la vie. The occasional kid pealed back a corner to look into the yellow water, but the fish were all swimming around quite oblivious to it. Anyways, my long winded point... not all meds are color-less. I think I have to learn brevity. -- www.NetMax.tk LOL!!! I enjoy even your long winded posts. There's always something to learn. -- Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995... Aquariums since 1952 My Pond & Aquarium Pages: http://tinyurl.com/9do58 ~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o |
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"Frank" wrote in message
ups.com... NetMax wrote, how bad your stores are, the clerks are ignorant and underpaid, and it won't get better ...... I would agree there are a lot of stores out there like that, but not near as many as they were in the past - 15 to 40 years ago. Then there are many mom & pop stores doing their best, which is much better than the average home tank...... Finally there are the specialty stores, who practice a husbandry beyond the average person's abilities ........ This I agree with 100%. I beleave these stores are still much better than those small chains you talked about. "Many of the smaller chains are doing very nicely. They know where they want to be, and are slowly moving that way (live plants in all the tanks, state-of-the-art filtration, rotating stock for disease control etc)." Mainly because they hire people that want to learn or already know about keeping and treating fish. A common store policy is to medicate with anything which is not detectable.... Many medications are not colorless (like fungus treatments), so then it was off to the back room quarantine tanks. We did things a little different in our stores. The quarantine tanks in the back were for incomming shipments - all the fish went through a quarantine preventive _treatment_. This cut or losses from 20 to 25% down to 2 and 3%. Every once in a while, like any fish store, we did wind up with a "sick" tank up front in the store. We posted a sign stating the tank was closed, what disease the fish had, why, and how to treat the disease. Like you said, most customers took it in stride - many looked at the diseased fish and bought stand by medications for their home tank/s. With most of the better mom and pop stores there are always customers waiting for the owner to get there (opening time) and they see the fish the same as the owner. With the larger chain stores, the tanks are cleared of dead fish long before the store opens, so what you see isn't what you get most of the time. I know of two of the larger stores around here that do have healthy fish, and clerks that know what they are doing, but to look at their store, one couldn't tell the difference between them and the 'bad' stores. The only way to know the difference is to seek out the clerks that know what they are talking about.......... Frank We certainly did do things differently. I was averaging 3 deliveries a week, and I could never have enough tanks to do any kind of preventative isolation. We approached it in 2 ways. At the supplier end, I visited the importers and brokers to see their tanks and their method of operation. With that human contact made, they understood my desire/need for quality, so anything they received which was suspect (too many losses in their incoming delivery) would NOT be delivered to me. I always over-ordered to balance this routine shortfall. They also didn't fill my local deliveries with filler fish (substitutes), and I provided them a standing list for import fillers. For those unfamiliar with this, the cost of transporting fish is mostly the airfreight volume of the boxes and the custom inspections. No one ships a box partially filled, however they are never able to satisfy 100% of your order due to local weather and breeding conditions in the country of origin, so they will slip in 'fillers'. Good fillers, if you have specified what the acceptable fillers are, bad ones if you don't (like dyed fish). In my case, I restricted them to a long list of acceptable substitutes (which were generally hard to find ;~), and if they were unable to find them, their profit margins dropped (less fish in the box to spread costs), so they worked hard to keep me happy. For my more custom orders (yes, I was also a pita with my special requests), the importers/brokers would put them in holding tanks for either 1 or 2 weeks (skipping 1 or 2 delivery runs), until the stock was strong enough to travel. Inside the store, we rotated stock around, so the new delivery of danios went into tank #46, even though #44 was where I was selling danios from. After the fish were installed, I would not put up their prices. My cardinal rule for all our associates "no price tag, no sale, no exceptions". Then I would monitor them until I was satisfied, and then would put up a price tag. This left the display tanks always looking filled (which increased sales), but allowed me a degree of quarantine (they were individually filtered, each with their own nets and algae scrubbers, to reduce cross-contamination). Most tanks had 1 to 5 species and were naturally planted as well. It just looked a little odd to have multiple tanks with overlapping species, but to the staff, they were treated as completely different fish (ie: last week's Cardinals from the Caribbean are different from this week's Cardinals from Brazil). If more than one supplier send identical substitutes (which did happen), I could find myself with 3 tanks of the same but different fish ;~). I won't pretend that any of this would replace a proper quarantine by the customer. 85% of the fish went on sale 1 or 2 days after delivery (or a bit longer until I had a shift as I was the only one blessing them for sale). Maybe 10% after 3-4 days (ie: Discus, Rams, Koi, Neons, Cardinals) and the last 5% after a couple of weeks (ie: Monos, Clown loaches, Bala sharks, Chocolate gouramis). This system felt like a good compromise between the required economics of selling fish and proper husbandry, maintaining about 2-3% of tanks off-sale while being medicated. I don't think I could have pushed the system further, and I routinely had to become more conservative as both ends of the supply chain were affected by seasonal variations, causing diseases at their end, and transport problems at my end in the winter months. It was an interesting business. Full of surprises. -- www.NetMax.tk |
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NetMax wrote,
We certainly did do things differently. You can say that again! Back then, we opened our first store on a shoe string. If it wasn't for all the other stores trying to put us out of business, we never would have made it. They all got togeather and told the wholesale outlets if they sold to us, they would get togeather and buy from their supplyers, forcing us to buy over seas. Our first shipment was in the middle of the winter - ice and snow storm shut down the airport for over 20 hours. We had to accept half our order (other half was on a different plane) or have our grand opening with no fish. I guess it's still the same way today - if you turned down the order, you didn't get any of it. If you accept part of it, you paided for all of it, and they wouldn't let you open any of it untill it was paided for. Well, to make a long story short, the other wholesale outlets that supplyed St. Louis and the greater area, did not accept their orders and we bought their shipments for the price of the foam boxs they were in - 1000.00s of dollars of fish (birds, snakes and small animals) for just over $100.00. Best part, the airport would call us if anyone turned down their live fish or animal orders from then on. Sure loved those winters back then ;-) It was an interesting business. Full of surprises. you can say that again also;-) .............. Frank |
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On 10 Mar 2006 23:19:16 -0800, "Frank"
wrote: NetMax wrote, We certainly did do things differently. You can say that again! Back then, we opened our first store on a shoe string. If it wasn't for all the other stores trying to put us out of business, we never would have made it. They all got togeather and told the wholesale outlets if they sold to us, they would get togeather and buy from their supplyers, forcing us to buy over seas. Our first shipment was in the middle of the winter - ice and snow storm shut down the airport for over 20 hours. We had to accept half our order (other half was on a different plane) or have our grand opening with no fish. I guess it's still the same way today - if you turned down the order, you didn't get any of it. If you accept part of it, you paided for all of it, and they wouldn't let you open any of it untill it was paided for. Well, to make a long story short, the other wholesale outlets that supplyed St. Louis and the greater area, did not accept their orders and we bought their shipments for the price of the foam boxs they were in - 1000.00s of dollars of fish (birds, snakes and small animals) for just over $100.00. Best part, the airport would call us if anyone turned down their live fish or animal orders from then on. Sure loved those winters back then ;-) It was an interesting business. Full of surprises. you can say that again also;-) .............. Frank Does anyone know where WalMart gets their fish? Are they buying from the same suppliers as everyone else, or have they purchased their own fish farms? -- Mister Gardener |
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Mr. Gardener wrote:
On 10 Mar 2006 23:19:16 -0800, "Frank" wrote: NetMax wrote, We certainly did do things differently. You can say that again! Back then, we opened our first store on a shoe string. If it wasn't for all the other stores trying to put us out of business, we never would have made it. They all got togeather and told the wholesale outlets if they sold to us, they would get togeather and buy from their supplyers, forcing us to buy over seas. Our first shipment was in the middle of the winter - ice and snow storm shut down the airport for over 20 hours. We had to accept half our order (other half was on a different plane) or have our grand opening with no fish. I guess it's still the same way today - if you turned down the order, you didn't get any of it. If you accept part of it, you paided for all of it, and they wouldn't let you open any of it untill it was paided for. Well, to make a long story short, the other wholesale outlets that supplyed St. Louis and the greater area, did not accept their orders and we bought their shipments for the price of the foam boxs they were in - 1000.00s of dollars of fish (birds, snakes and small animals) for just over $100.00. Best part, the airport would call us if anyone turned down their live fish or animal orders from then on. Sure loved those winters back then ;-) It was an interesting business. Full of surprises. you can say that again also;-) .............. Frank Does anyone know where WalMart gets their fish? Are they buying from the same suppliers as everyone else, or have they purchased their own fish farms? -- Mister Gardener If you've got a good relationship with the staff there I suggest you ask them...the guys were I go routinely get questioned by me as to where the fish originate from... Gill |
Quarantine
On Sat, 11 Mar 2006 14:13:38 +0000, Gill Passman
wrote: Mr. Gardener wrote: On 10 Mar 2006 23:19:16 -0800, "Frank" wrote: NetMax wrote, We certainly did do things differently. You can say that again! Back then, we opened our first store on a shoe string. If it wasn't for all the other stores trying to put us out of business, we never would have made it. They all got togeather and told the wholesale outlets if they sold to us, they would get togeather and buy from their supplyers, forcing us to buy over seas. Our first shipment was in the middle of the winter - ice and snow storm shut down the airport for over 20 hours. We had to accept half our order (other half was on a different plane) or have our grand opening with no fish. I guess it's still the same way today - if you turned down the order, you didn't get any of it. If you accept part of it, you paided for all of it, and they wouldn't let you open any of it untill it was paided for. Well, to make a long story short, the other wholesale outlets that supplyed St. Louis and the greater area, did not accept their orders and we bought their shipments for the price of the foam boxs they were in - 1000.00s of dollars of fish (birds, snakes and small animals) for just over $100.00. Best part, the airport would call us if anyone turned down their live fish or animal orders from then on. Sure loved those winters back then ;-) It was an interesting business. Full of surprises. you can say that again also;-) .............. Frank Does anyone know where WalMart gets their fish? Are they buying from the same suppliers as everyone else, or have they purchased their own fish farms? -- Mister Gardener If you've got a good relationship with the staff there I suggest you ask them...the guys were I go routinely get questioned by me as to where the fish originate from... Gill No relationship. I visit WalMart 3 or 4 times a year to buy a certain recordable cd that I'm unable to find anywhere else. The only pet products I buy in large quantities is dog food and cat pan litter, and WalMart's prices are no lower than the grocer's down the street from me. Nope. Walmart is a 50 mile round trip, so I think long and hard before I make that drive. -- Mister Gardener |
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On Sat, 11 Mar 2006 20:31:14 -0000, FishNoob
wrote: In article , says... I think it's wonderful that you've found a store that quarantines their fish before selling them. I've heard they exist, but I've never found one. Do you have a good feeling about them, have you done business with them before, can you believe them? Well, we went to buy our fish, and I feel even better about this store than I did before. I talked to one of the senior staff - I think she might be one of the owners. I hung around in the store for over an hour, just looking at things and letting my kids explore (I had all five with me) and the staff were perfectly willing to chat with all of us and answer questions. My 6-year-old went straight up to the counter when we went in and asked if they had any sharks - the staff member then took about five minutes walking around the store and pointing out all the different sharks they had. They import weekly - they don't use a local supplier at all. They quarantine everything for a minimum of two weeks - longer if they have any suspicions about anything, but always at least two weeks. They have a 900-tank quarantine facility - I didn't ask to see it (got distracted by a kid and some fish LOL) but I think it might be off-site - they're currently looking for a new location because they need a bigger building. I didn't see any tanks under treatment in the shop itself, although I noticed one that was empty. They don't treat the quarantined fish routinely, just if they need it. Their stock *all* looks good - I didn't see even one fish that looked sickly. The tanks are all clean and well cared-for. They have three separate areas - one for tropical, one for marine and one for ponds - plus the second floor where they sell tanks and other larger pieces of equipment. They talk about the fish with affection - telling us about the character of one large fish who comes out to feed and then goes and "lies down" again. They knew we were there for three clown loaches, and didn't put on any pressure to buy anything more - though we did buy some food, and some other fish... I am really impressed by this place - they've a great reputation, and I think it's well-deserved. Do you think they would be interested in opening a branch in Maine, USA? -- Mister Gardener |
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I'm sure she does know, but she only has one ick med, one antibodic, pretty
much one of everything (or at least the things she carries) in her store and i guess that is what she orders and uses. she does not know a lot about the things she sells, she was trying to tell me betta's are ok in a few inches of water, which i always tell everyone just because you can do something..... does not mean you should, yes they will live but they wont be happy, she said they dont like havng a lot of room, i tried to tell her different she said i did not know. some of the stuff she tells me, i just smile and say yeah ok Nikki "Koi-Lo" wrote in message ... "Nikki" wrote in message ... I'll second that....My neighborhood fish store is not a chain (closing this month) a older lady owns it she opened it after she retired for something to do, and I kind of talked to her the other day about her closing she said she was not doing to good with business, My nearest town had several mom & pop pet shops try to make a go of it over the years. Most of these stores did take good care of the fish, medicate them, guarantee them etc. but people would not pay the prices they had to charge to stay in business. The average Joe Blow went to *you know where* to get fish for 1/3rd less the price the private stores had to charge. Never mind they were sick and diseased, they were CHEAP! All these M&Ps closed in less than 2 years. One only lasted about 6 months. However we now have a brand spanking new PetSupermarket and they're thriving! The fish are selling as fast as she gets them in (several older women run the place). and I am not the kind of person to say "hay your store sucks" but I did tell her I had many problems with fish I bought there, and she said the ones you just got in the last few months (she said because she has not been as involved) I said no its been all of them. She said its probably because I don't quarantine my fish I don't have the room, so there is much more change of disease, she also was very honest in saying if someone comes in and my tank is blue from being treated they will not buy fish from me at all, But there are colorless medications such as Aquari-Sol that no one would know was in the water. How could she not know that? The wholesalers could have told her what to use that works and is invisible. I think some people just don't have enough knowledge to make a go of these pet stores. That real bad place I mention here stays in business because they sell other pets besides fish. I wish they'd just concentrate on the birds and small animals and get rid of all their diseased tanks of fish. even in the clean tanks, I said I don't know I would be more likely to because then I know your on top of it instead of thinking you don't care what you are selling. she was nice about it Nikki -- Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995... Aquariums since 1952 My Pond & Aquarium Pages: http://tinyurl.com/9do58 ~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o |
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netmax
You know one thing about her store which is now closing, she had retired and i think she was one of those people who was not ready to, she opened her store about six years ago, no one else ever worked there but her, six days a week, 12 hours a day, and i do think it got ahead of her, she does not just sell fish she sells birds, small animals, and supplies, and i think a lot of the problem was she needed to charge more since she was a smaller place, most of the time her tanks did not look well, a lot of dead fish, and from word of mouth people stopped getting feeder and stuff, so any way she her self was not a bad person, but she had twenty tanks plus a big round thing she kept feeders in and i think it may have been a bit much to do alone. and unlike some bigger places she could only get a limited number of fish being she only had 20 tanks. any way Nikki "NetMax" wrote in message . .. "Koi-Lo" wrote in message ... "Nikki" wrote in message ... I'll second that....My neighborhood fish store is not a chain (closing this month) a older lady owns it she opened it after she retired for something to do, and I kind of talked to her the other day about her closing she said she was not doing to good with business, My nearest town had several mom & pop pet shops try to make a go of it over the years. Most of these stores did take good care of the fish, medicate them, guarantee them etc. but people would not pay the prices they had to charge to stay in business. The average Joe Blow went to *you know where* to get fish for 1/3rd less the price the private stores had to charge. Never mind they were sick and diseased, they were CHEAP! All these M&Ps closed in less than 2 years. One only lasted about 6 months. However we now have a brand spanking new PetSupermarket and they're thriving! The fish are selling as fast as she gets them in (several older women run the place). Koi-Lo, as soon as someone posts something about store quality, even something good about it, I can always count on you jumping in to tell us how bad your stores are, the clerks are ignorant and underpaid, and it won't get better because it is the American way. All this negativity is no good for you. Chill :o) I don't doubt what you see is happening where you are (Tennesee?), but there are thousands of gorgeous stores in North America. Forget your big chains, though even they have a few stand-out stores where you see the management is on the ball. Many of the smaller chains are doing very nicely. They know where they want to be, and are slowly moving that way (live plants in all the tanks, state-of-the-art filtration, rotating stock for disease control etc). Then there are many mom & pop stores doing their best, which is much better than the average home tank. Finally there are the specialty stores, who practice a husbandry beyond the average person's abilities because of the value of their stock, whether it is Discus, Arrowanas or Koi. At least you now have one good store which you can frequent. Try to stay out of all the others, especially that other one we both know about (W**-***t), it's bad for your health ;~). and I am not the kind of person to say "hay your store sucks" but I did tell her I had many problems with fish I bought there, and she said the ones you just got in the last few months (she said because she has not been as involved) I said no its been all of them. She said its probably because I don't quarantine my fish I don't have the room, so there is much more change of disease, she also was very honest in saying if someone comes in and my tank is blue from being treated they will not buy fish from me at all, But there are colorless medications such as Aquari-Sol that no one would know was in the water. How could she not know that? The wholesalers could have told her what to use that works and is invisible. I think some people just don't have enough knowledge to make a go of these pet stores. That real bad place I mention here stays in business because they sell other pets besides fish. I wish they'd just concentrate on the birds and small animals and get rid of all their diseased tanks of fish. A common store policy is to medicate with anything which is not detectable. I liked it when we got in dark-blue painted tanks. I could medicate just after closing, and the color would not be evident by morning. Many medications are not colorless (like fungus treatments), so then it was off to the back room quarantine tanks. I kept six Q-tanks running, and I would have 4 typically in operation, and sometimes I would double them up (fish from different tanks with different diseases, which were both covered by the meds in use. In an extreme case (the EUS discussed in another thread), I treated the display tank, but I took a sheet of black background and pasted it on the front of the wall tank with a sign "shhh hospital tank, fish may be sleeping". Most customers took it in stride and didn't hold it against us for having 'diseased' fish. A few said they were not coming back because of it. C'est la vie. The occasional kid pealed back a corner to look into the yellow water, but the fish were all swimming around quite oblivious to it. Anyways, my long winded point... not all meds are color-less. I think I have to learn brevity. -- www.NetMax.tk even in the clean tanks, I said I don't know I would be more likely to because then I know your on top of it instead of thinking you don't care what you are selling. she was nice about it Nikki -- Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995... Aquariums since 1952 My Pond & Aquarium Pages: http://tinyurl.com/9do58 ~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o |
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"Nikki" wrote in message
... netmax You know one thing about her store which is now closing, she had retired and i think she was one of those people who was not ready to, she opened her store about six years ago, no one else ever worked there but her, six days a week, 12 hours a day, and i do think it got ahead of her, she does not just sell fish she sells birds, small animals, and supplies, and i think a lot of the problem was she needed to charge more since she was a smaller place, most of the time her tanks did not look well, a lot of dead fish, and from word of mouth people stopped getting feeder and stuff, so any way she her self was not a bad person, but she had twenty tanks plus a big round thing she kept feeders in and i think it may have been a bit much to do alone. and unlike some bigger places she could only get a limited number of fish being she only had 20 tanks. any way Nikki I can certainly sympathise. Even with an automated water change system, our 3 fish depts had the biggest budget for man-hours in stores which also sold reptiles, small animals and birds. To make money, it's a labour intensive operation to keep the tanks clean (gravel-vac and algae cleaning), planted and properly fed. Maintenance averaged 1/2 man-hour per tank per week. That's 10 hours a week for 20 tanks done properly. On top of that, you need to inventory, order, receive, make signage and sell the stock, and after spending all that time, livestock was not where you made the money, it was in dry goods (which need to be inventoried, ordered, received, shelved and refaced every day). I'm getting tired just remembering all that work. -- www.NetMax.tk |
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