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Hi,
A really good friend of mine is giving up fishkeeping and has offered to pass on his 120 litre (30 US Gal / 25 Imp Gal) tank. I've been wondering what to put into it. These are my ideas: (1) Small tiger barb community: 8 tiger barbs, 4 swordtails, 1 red-finned shark (or, as a variation on this could have 10 smaller barbs (say pentazona's or cherry barbs), 5 swordtails and 1 red-finned shark.) (2) Freshwater planted Angel tank - say 6 fish (3) Peaceful community tank: Guppy's, neons, platys, corys Any comments, ideas, suggestions would be great. Thanks Muddy. (PS: My water is pretty hard here, so I'm not sure if I can keep angels - I would always go for tank bred stock rather than wild caught fish because I know they're more tolerant, but my pH tends to sit around 8.0 which really is quite high for fish like this and I would like whatever fish I keep to be thriving rather than surviving. I do love angels though. I've always wanted a species tank.) |
New Tank
In article .com,
muddyfox wrote: Hi, A really good friend of mine is giving up fishkeeping and has offered to pass on his 120 litre (30 US Gal / 25 Imp Gal) tank. I've been wondering what to put into it. These are my ideas: (1) Small tiger barb community: 8 tiger barbs, 4 swordtails, 1 red-finned shark (or, as a variation on this could have 10 smaller barbs (say pentazona's or cherry barbs), 5 swordtails and 1 red-finned shark.) (2) Freshwater planted Angel tank - say 6 fish (3) Peaceful community tank: Guppy's, neons, platys, corys Any comments, ideas, suggestions would be great. Thanks Muddy. (PS: My water is pretty hard here, so I'm not sure if I can keep angels - I would always go for tank bred stock rather than wild caught Ah, so that must be why you pick fish that like soft water? :-) What about hard water fish? African cichlids? Monos, scats, archers, puffers? (they prefer bit of salt). If it were me I'd add one Endlers female, feed it well and stand back. -- Need Mercedes parts? http://parts.mbz.org Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org 1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home pages: http://rs79.vrx.net 633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net |
New Tank
I ahve a similar tank with one angel, one red fin shark, a cory, pleco,
and a few assorted tetras also I started out with 6 guppies, last count makes it 20+, hopefully they will self limit themselves or the angel will do it for them. |
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Richard Sexton wrote: Ah, so that must be why you pick fish that like soft water? :-) Apart from livebearers, angels and barbs are the only other fish I know much about keeping. I guess I'm really sticking with what I know. What about hard water fish? African cichlids? Monos, scats, archers, puffers? (they prefer bit of salt). I did look at cichlids but I can't see myself keeping them. Partly this is because my reading suggests that they are harder to keep and I'm just getting back into fishkeeping after a more than ten years away from it so I figure I'll do some easier tanks first and partly because I've heard nothing but bad things about their aggressive, territorial behaviour. I know barbs, esp Tigers, get a bad press, but in a good sized shoal with lots of swimming room and tank mates they can't bully they seem fine. My impression of cichlid tanks is that they are like a war zone and little can be done to stop it. I can't seem to type the word 'cichlid' into a search engine without hearing 'this fish ate this fish and keeps the rest in terror' type stories. Maybe you only hear about the disasters created through inexperience and lack of proper knowledge but it doesn't encourage me at all. I suspect that I have quite a jaundiced view of what can be a very beautiful group of fish. I do like the look of some of the Monodactylus spp, particualrly M. sebae, but the nearest I've come to a brackish tank is to add some aquarium salt for black mollies. How do you look after a fully brackish setup? Do you need all the kit for marine - protien skimmer, RO unit, sal****er mix (watered down), UV steriliser etc etc. or is brackish more like tropical with aquarium salt added and GH and KH monitered? I don't really like puffers or archers much although scats are OK. If it were me I'd add one Endlers female, feed it well and stand back. Well, I have always had a soft spot for guppy's and I do love the tiny little fry. I've usually ended up with too many though. They would look georgeous - lots of them in a nice sized tank. Thanks ever so much for your ideas. I was really hoping the more experienced folk here would be able to open my eyes to new possibilities which is exactly what you've done! Thanks, Muddy |
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PS: I know angels are cichlids too but they seems lot easier to keep
and not really territorial at all when not breeding. :) |
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In article .com,
muddyfox wrote: Richard Sexton wrote: Ah, so that must be why you pick fish that like soft water? :-) Apart from livebearers, angels and barbs are the only other fish I know much about keeping. I guess I'm really sticking with what I know. What about hard water fish? African cichlids? Monos, scats, archers, puffers? (they prefer bit of salt). I did look at cichlids but I can't see myself keeping them. Partly this is because my reading suggests that they are harder to keep and I'm just getting back into fishkeeping after a more than ten years away from it so I figure I'll do some easier tanks first and partly because I've heard nothing but bad things about their aggressive, territorial behaviour. I know barbs, esp Tigers, get a bad press, but in a good sized shoal with lots of swimming room and tank mates they can't bully they seem fine. Afrcans are esier to keep than angels IMO. My impression of cichlid tanks is that they are like a war zone and little can be done to stop it. I can't seem to type the word 'cichlid' into a search engine without hearing 'this fish ate this fish and keeps the rest in terror' type stories. Maybe you only hear about the disasters created through inexperience and lack of proper knowledge but it doesn't encourage me at all. I suspect that I have quite a jaundiced view of what can be a very beautiful group of fish. I don't keep cichlids but a lot of my friends do. The problems with uneven agression apparanly stem from mixing africans from different lakes. Stick to one lake and you're ok. I do like the look of some of the Monodactylus spp, particualrly M. sebae, but the nearest I've come to a brackish tank is to add some aquarium salt for black mollies. How do you look after a fully brackish setup? Do you need all the kit for marine - protien skimmer, RO unit, sal****er mix (watered down), UV steriliser etc etc. or is brackish more like tropical with aquarium salt added and GH and KH monitered? I don't really like puffers or archers much although scats are OK. Add salt. That's it' Simple as pie. If it were me I'd add one Endlers female, feed it well and stand back. Well, I have always had a soft spot for guppy's and I do love the tiny little fry. I've usually ended up with too many though. They would look georgeous - lots of them in a nice sized tank. Thanks ever so much for your ideas. I was really hoping the more experienced folk here would be able to open my eyes to new possibilities which is exactly what you've done! My favorite tank for years had one species of Cryptocoryne and Endlers and that's it. Both took off like mad and there were hundreds of each. -- Need Mercedes parts? http://parts.mbz.org Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org 1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home pages: http://rs79.vrx.net 633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net |
New Tank
"muddyfox" wrote in message oups.com... Richard Sexton wrote: Ah, so that must be why you pick fish that like soft water? :-) Apart from livebearers, angels and barbs are the only other fish I know much about keeping. I guess I'm really sticking with what I know. Google tropical fish and you will learn a lot about what's out there and their water preferences. With our hard alkaline water I bypass all the fish I know wont thrive in my tanks. I'm surprised Bettas live as long as they do for me. What about hard water fish? African cichlids? Monos, scats, archers, puffers? (they prefer bit of salt). I did look at cichlids but I can't see myself keeping them. Partly this is because my reading suggests that they are harder to keep and I'm just getting back into fishkeeping after a more than ten years away from it so I figure I'll do some easier tanks first and partly because I've heard nothing but bad things about their aggressive, territorial behaviour. I know barbs, esp Tigers, get a bad press, but in a good sized shoal with lots of swimming room and tank mates they can't bully they seem fine. My impression of cichlid tanks is that they are like a war zone and little can be done to stop it. I can't seem to type the word 'cichlid' into a search engine without hearing 'this fish ate this fish and keeps the rest in terror' type stories. Maybe you only hear about the disasters created through inexperience and lack of proper knowledge but it doesn't encourage me at all. I suspect that I have quite a jaundiced view of what can be a very beautiful group of fish. I should put my flame retardant suit on before saying this but I AGREE with you about cichlids. Also I don't find the south American cichlids all that attractive and they get large. The Malawi (African) cichilds are much more colorful and only a little less aggressive. Some of those also get large. I do like the look of some of the Monodactylus spp, particualrly M. sebae, but the nearest I've come to a brackish tank is to add some aquarium salt for black mollies. How do you look after a fully brackish setup? Do you need all the kit for marine - protien skimmer, RO unit, sal****er mix (watered down), UV steriliser etc etc. No, not for a braskish tank. But many plants will not survive in brackish water. or is brackish more like tropical with aquarium salt added and GH and KH monitered? I don't really like puffers or archers much although scats are OK. If it were me I'd add one Endlers female, feed it well and stand back. Well, I have always had a soft spot for guppy's and I do love the tiny little fry. I've usually ended up with too many though. They would look georgeous - lots of them in a nice sized tank. The problem I had with guppies is the age-old overpopulation to where none grow out to a normal size. Then what do you do with them? The stores want large guppies and don't take the small ones....... and once overcrowded you need to do constant gravel vacuuming and water changes - sometimes 2 or 3 times a week. I think you can see how I ended up with mostly goldfish and koi. Thanks ever so much for your ideas. I was really hoping the more experienced folk here would be able to open my eyes to new possibilities which is exactly what you've done! Google around or pick up a good book on tropical fish from your LFS. Bone up on what does well in your water, make a list and go from there. :-) -- Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995... Aquariums since 1952 My Pond & Aquarium Pages: http://tinyurl.com/9do58 ~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o |
New Tank
"muddyfox" wrote in message oups.com... PS: I know angels are cichlids too but they seems lot easier to keep and not really territorial at all when not breeding. :) ================== The problem with angels is once they start to breed they continue on and you have to remove all the other fish or you have a war zone in your tank. Been there. Done that several times. Angels don't stay small for long. They were always one of my favorite tropical fish. But every time a pair started to breed I either had to remove the pair and return them to the LFS or remove all the other fish being harassed by them. It's something to think about...... -- Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995... Aquariums since 1952 My Pond & Aquarium Pages: http://tinyurl.com/9do58 ~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o |
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In article .com,
muddyfox wrote: Well, I have always had a soft spot for guppy's and I do love the tiny little fry. I've usually ended up with too many though. They would look georgeous - lots of them in a nice sized tank. Plant heavily. When I had an all guppy tank, their pretty bloodlines got more and more diluted, or concentrated, not sure which, but after a year or so each new spawn brought drabber and drabber babies. However, that hasn't prevented me from planning another similar tank for the near future. Thanks ever so much for your ideas. I was really hoping the more experienced folk here would be able to open my eyes to new possibilities which is exactly what you've done! What I have learned from RAFM: Filling a large tank with plants and one species of smallish fish to capacity. There are so many kinds of fish that don't do much for me, until you add 30 or 40 or more to a single species tank. I think Gill's species tank of Blue Eyed Gertrudes got me thinking along those lines. Your own mention of all tiger barbs sounds great. -- Mister Gardener |
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Koi-Lo wrote: The problem with angels is once they start to breed they continue on and you have to remove all the other fish or you have a war zone in your tank. Been there. Done that several times. Angels don't stay small for long. They were always one of my favorite tropical fish. But every time a pair started to breed I either had to remove the pair and return them to the LFS or remove all the other fish being harassed by them. It's something to think about...... You're right, I've read about problems with breeding pairs - for some reason I'd assumed there would be no breeding (bad assumption where living things are concerned :-o ). Apparently in the wild they all disappear off into the flooded forest during the wet season and breed in pairs away from each other. They are highly terratorial during this period. Then, breeding over, they return to the main river as the water goes down and shoal together again. Maybe, if I _really_ want angels I could just keep a pair in my 60 litre planted tank. It will have much softer water because I'm using ADA Aquasoil and should they choose to breed they will not be grumpy with other tank mates. Although, if I did this I'd probably like to put a small oto or a shrimp or two in the tank, if I could do thjat without trouble. I'd have to be prepared to deal with the fry too should they spawn. Could be quite exciting! Thanks for your thoughts - very helpful, as usual :) Muddy |
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Richard Sexton wrote:
In article .com, muddyfox wrote: Richard Sexton wrote: Ah, so that must be why you pick fish that like soft water? :-) Apart from livebearers, angels and barbs are the only other fish I know much about keeping. I guess I'm really sticking with what I know. What about hard water fish? African cichlids? Monos, scats, archers, puffers? (they prefer bit of salt). Did anyone read that this is a 30 gallon tank??? Scats grow to 12" and require full marine conditions in adulthood. There's no way to house those fish long-term in a 30 gallon tank. Monos are not much better, since they grow to 8" and are very active swimmers. Sebae monos can reach a foot tall in good conditions. Maybe, just maybe, you could get away with a fully grown archer in that tank. Rainbowfish from the Glossolepis, Melanotaenia, and Telmatherina genuses (includes celebes, boseman's, turquoise, and New Guinea red) require hard water. Threadfins do OK in hard water too. Raunbows are easy to keep and much more peaceful than African cichlids. Some species get as large as 5", so be sure you have space for the adults. I did look at cichlids but I can't see myself keeping them. Partly this is because my reading suggests that they are harder to keep and I'm just getting back into fishkeeping after a more than ten years away from it so I figure I'll do some easier tanks first and partly because I've heard nothing but bad things about their aggressive, territorial behaviour. I know barbs, esp Tigers, get a bad press, but in a good sized shoal with lots of swimming room and tank mates they can't bully they seem fine. Tiger barbs get bad press because they're nippy little SOBs. Put them in a species tank, or forget about them. If you put them in with swordtails like you were suggesting, the swords will be constantly damaged. Afrcans are esier to keep than angels IMO. African are amazingly hardy fish. Angels are hardy too, if you find good ones. Problem is, your typical $3 angel is not healthy while a $1 "assorted African cichlid" will be fine. My impression of cichlid tanks is that they are like a war zone and little can be done to stop it. I can't seem to type the word 'cichlid' into a search engine without hearing 'this fish ate this fish and keeps the rest in terror' type stories. Maybe you only hear about the disasters created through inexperience and lack of proper knowledge but it doesn't encourage me at all. I suspect that I have quite a jaundiced view of what can be a very beautiful group of fish. I don't keep cichlids but a lot of my friends do. The problems with uneven agression apparanly stem from mixing africans from different lakes. Stick to one lake and you're ok. ....until they pair up, start breeding, and beat the snot outta anything that moves. I kept a Tanganyikan tank with one pair of open-water Malawi haps (they didn't fight for rock space so they were fine) and still lost fish at first. However, that tank settled down once all the fish found their territory. I had three different species of fish breeding at the same time in that tank. In fact, I'd take a tank full of African cichlids over a shoal of tiger barbs any day. The worst cichlid tales are from the big South American cichlids rather than Africans. Those fish are big and psychotic. I do like the look of some of the Monodactylus spp, particualrly M. sebae, but the nearest I've come to a brackish tank is to add some aquarium salt for black mollies. How do you look after a fully brackish setup? Do you need all the kit for marine - protien skimmer, RO unit, sal****er mix (watered down), UV steriliser etc etc. or is brackish more like tropical with aquarium salt added and GH and KH monitered? I don't really like puffers or archers much although scats are OK. Add salt. That's it' Simple as pie. Read comments on adult sizes of monos and scats above. To run a full brackish setup, you use sal****er mix and monitor salinity with a hydrometer. SG should be around 1.011. The high alkalinity and pH means ammonia is very toxic so stocking should be lower than in freshwater. You need good wet/dry or biowheel filtration, but UV, RO and a skimmer are not necessary. -- Put the word aquaria in the subject to reply. Did you read the FAQ? http://faq.thekrib.com |
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On Wed, 22 Mar 2006 18:31:07 GMT, Altum
wrote: Richard Sexton wrote: In article .com, muddyfox wrote: Richard Sexton wrote: Ah, so that must be why you pick fish that like soft water? :-) Apart from livebearers, angels and barbs are the only other fish I know much about keeping. I guess I'm really sticking with what I know. What about hard water fish? African cichlids? Monos, scats, archers, puffers? (they prefer bit of salt). Did anyone read that this is a 30 gallon tank??? Scats grow to 12" and require full marine conditions in adulthood. There's no way to house those fish long-term in a 30 gallon tank. Monos are not much better, since they grow to 8" and are very active swimmers. Sebae monos can reach a foot tall in good conditions. Maybe, just maybe, you could get away with a fully grown archer in that tank. Rainbowfish from the Glossolepis, Melanotaenia, and Telmatherina genuses (includes celebes, boseman's, turquoise, and New Guinea red) require hard water. Threadfins do OK in hard water too. Raunbows are easy to keep and much more peaceful than African cichlids. Some species get as large as 5", so be sure you have space for the adults. I did look at cichlids but I can't see myself keeping them. Partly this is because my reading suggests that they are harder to keep and I'm just getting back into fishkeeping after a more than ten years away from it so I figure I'll do some easier tanks first and partly because I've heard nothing but bad things about their aggressive, territorial behaviour. I know barbs, esp Tigers, get a bad press, but in a good sized shoal with lots of swimming room and tank mates they can't bully they seem fine. Tiger barbs get bad press because they're nippy little SOBs. Put them in a species tank, or forget about them. If you put them in with swordtails like you were suggesting, the swords will be constantly damaged. Afrcans are esier to keep than angels IMO. African are amazingly hardy fish. Angels are hardy too, if you find good ones. Problem is, your typical $3 angel is not healthy while a $1 "assorted African cichlid" will be fine. My impression of cichlid tanks is that they are like a war zone and little can be done to stop it. I can't seem to type the word 'cichlid' into a search engine without hearing 'this fish ate this fish and keeps the rest in terror' type stories. Maybe you only hear about the disasters created through inexperience and lack of proper knowledge but it doesn't encourage me at all. I suspect that I have quite a jaundiced view of what can be a very beautiful group of fish. I don't keep cichlids but a lot of my friends do. The problems with uneven agression apparanly stem from mixing africans from different lakes. Stick to one lake and you're ok. ...until they pair up, start breeding, and beat the snot outta anything that moves. I kept a Tanganyikan tank with one pair of open-water Malawi haps (they didn't fight for rock space so they were fine) and still lost fish at first. However, that tank settled down once all the fish found their territory. I had three different species of fish breeding at the same time in that tank. In fact, I'd take a tank full of African cichlids over a shoal of tiger barbs any day. The worst cichlid tales are from the big South American cichlids rather than Africans. Those fish are big and psychotic. I do like the look of some of the Monodactylus spp, particualrly M. sebae, but the nearest I've come to a brackish tank is to add some aquarium salt for black mollies. How do you look after a fully brackish setup? Do you need all the kit for marine - protien skimmer, RO unit, sal****er mix (watered down), UV steriliser etc etc. or is brackish more like tropical with aquarium salt added and GH and KH monitered? I don't really like puffers or archers much although scats are OK. Add salt. That's it' Simple as pie. Read comments on adult sizes of monos and scats above. To run a full brackish setup, you use sal****er mix and monitor salinity with a hydrometer. SG should be around 1.011. The high alkalinity and pH means ammonia is very toxic so stocking should be lower than in freshwater. You need good wet/dry or biowheel filtration, but UV, RO and a skimmer are not necessary. Or you can start off with a few freshwater angelfish and after they pair off and get territorial and begin to get into scraps with each other, the resulting fish will look like Monos. Best off both worlds. -- Mister Gardener |
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"Altum" wrote in message t... Tiger barbs get bad press because they're nippy little SOBs. Put them in a species tank, or forget about them. If you put them in with swordtails like you were suggesting, the swords will be constantly damaged. Somepeople think if you have enough Tigers in the tank they wont bother the other fish - WRONG! I scratched them off my list long ago. I don't keep cichlids but a lot of my friends do. The problems with uneven agression apparanly stem from mixing africans from different lakes. Stick to one lake and you're ok. ...until they pair up, start breeding, and beat the snot outta anything that moves. Some Africans will beat the snot out of anything that moves even when they're not breeding. They take over part of the tank and that's that. Rearrange the rocks and in less than 48 hours they have another part staked out. And they sometimes gang-up on another tankmate and tear it to shreds. Been there - got home just in time to save my Rusty back in 1999. For now they're also off my "fish to keep" list. I kept a Tanganyikan tank with one pair of open-water Malawi haps (they didn't fight for rock space so they were fine) and still lost fish at first. However, that tank settled down once all the fish found their territory. I had three different species of fish breeding at the same time in that tank. In fact, I'd take a tank full of African cichlids over a shoal of tiger barbs any day. The worst cichlid tales are from the big South American cichlids rather than Africans. Those fish are big and psychotic. So are some of the Malawi's once they reach a good size. :-( Read comments on adult sizes of monos and scats above. To run a full brackish setup, you use sal****er mix and monitor salinity with a hydrometer. SG should be around 1.011. The high alkalinity and pH means ammonia is very toxic so stocking should be lower than in freshwater. You need good wet/dry or biowheel filtration, but UV, RO and a skimmer are not necessary. I noticed that some stores like PetsMart now have stickers on all their tanks giving the adult size and diet of the fish they sell. I don't think most people realize how LARGE some fish get. -- Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995... Aquariums since 1952 My Pond & Aquarium Pages: http://tinyurl.com/9do58 ~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o |
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"Mr. Gardener" wrote in message ... Or you can start off with a few freshwater angelfish and after they pair off and get territorial and begin to get into scraps with each other, the resulting fish will look like Monos. Best off both worlds. ================= But the bloody sores, missing scales and fuzzy fungus and bacterial flower gardens sprouting from them wont be too attractive........ -- Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995... Aquariums since 1952 My Pond & Aquarium Pages: http://tinyurl.com/9do58 ~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o |
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Mid posted.
Koi-Lo wrote: "muddyfox" wrote in message oups.com... Richard Sexton wrote: Ah, so that must be why you pick fish that like soft water? :-) Apart from livebearers, angels and barbs are the only other fish I know much about keeping. I guess I'm really sticking with what I know. Google tropical fish and you will learn a lot about what's out there and their water preferences. With our hard alkaline water I bypass all the fish I know wont thrive in my tanks. I'm surprised Bettas live as long as they do for me. What about hard water fish? African cichlids? Monos, scats, archers, puffers? (they prefer bit of salt). I did look at cichlids but I can't see myself keeping them. Partly this is because my reading suggests that they are harder to keep and I'm just getting back into fishkeeping after a more than ten years away from it so I figure I'll do some easier tanks first and partly because I've heard nothing but bad things about their aggressive, territorial behaviour. I know barbs, esp Tigers, get a bad press, but in a good sized shoal with lots of swimming room and tank mates they can't bully they seem fine. My impression of cichlid tanks is that they are like a war zone and little can be done to stop it. I can't seem to type the word 'cichlid' into a search engine without hearing 'this fish ate this fish and keeps the rest in terror' type stories. Maybe you only hear about the disasters created through inexperience and lack of proper knowledge but it doesn't encourage me at all. I suspect that I have quite a jaundiced view of what can be a very beautiful group of fish. I should put my flame retardant suit on before saying this but I AGREE with you about cichlids. Also I don't find the south American cichlids all that attractive and they get large. The Malawi (African) cichilds are much more colorful and only a little less aggressive. Some of those also get large. I do like the look of some of the Monodactylus spp, particualrly M. sebae, but the nearest I've come to a brackish tank is to add some aquarium salt for black mollies. How do you look after a fully brackish setup? Do you need all the kit for marine - protien skimmer, RO unit, sal****er mix (watered down), UV steriliser etc etc. No, not for a braskish tank. But many plants will not survive in brackish water. or is brackish more like tropical with aquarium salt added and GH and KH monitered? I don't really like puffers or archers much although scats are OK. If it were me I'd add one Endlers female, feed it well and stand back. Well, I have always had a soft spot for guppy's and I do love the tiny little fry. I've usually ended up with too many though. They would look georgeous - lots of them in a nice sized tank. The problem I had with guppies is the age-old overpopulation to where none grow out to a normal size. My fancy guppies just die off one by one - which is why I am going to write my next message on this newsgroup. Warning - I recommend no one depends on live bearers being self-regulating because they aren't (at the very least not if you want your other types of fish that are in the same tank to not be affected or killed). Good luck all and later! Then what do you do with them? The stores want large guppies and don't take the small ones....... and once overcrowded you need to do constant gravel vacuuming and water changes - sometimes 2 or 3 times a week. I think you can see how I ended up with mostly goldfish and koi. Thanks ever so much for your ideas. I was really hoping the more experienced folk here would be able to open my eyes to new possibilities which is exactly what you've done! Google around or pick up a good book on tropical fish from your LFS. Bone up on what does well in your water, make a list and go from there. :-) |
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"Daniel Morrow" wrote in message ... Koi-Lo wrote: The problem I had with guppies is the age-old overpopulation to where none grow out to a normal size. My fancy guppies just die off one by one - which is why I am going to write my next message on this newsgroup. Warning - I recommend no one depends on live bearers being self-regulating because they aren't (at the very least not if you want your other types of fish that are in the same tank to not be affected or killed). Good luck all and later! =========================== No, they're not self regulating. I didn't have problems with nitrites but did have problems with perhaps hormones that stunted their growth. I couldn't find any LFSs at the time to take any but the LARGEST most salable guppies. After unloading those I was stuck with a mess of small unsalabe fish..... finally I gave every single one to someone I knew with a 30L tank. She put them in a community tank and in months had no guppies at all. Those were the last guppies I had. You may need more filtration (bigger filter, second filter etc.) on your tank if you're seeing nitrites. -- Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995... Aquariums since 1952 My Pond & Aquarium Pages: http://tinyurl.com/9do58 ~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o |
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Richard Sexton wrote: My favorite tank for years had one species of Cryptocoryne and Endlers and that's it. Both took off like mad and there were hundreds of each. That sounds lovely - what spp of Crypt did you use? Did you have any additional lighting? Thanks, Muddy |
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Koi-Lo wrote: Google around or pick up a good book on tropical fish from your LFS. Bone up on what does well in your water, make a list and go from there. :-) Yes, I've got three books and I spend a tonne of time on the internet looking up fish too but the biggest problem I seem to have with research into this area generally is that the books don't agree with each other. One will say such and such a fish is OK from pH 6.5 to pH 7.8 and another will say they need soft acid water (which doesn't agree with pH 7.8!) and another will say suitable for any water type! It drives me crazy. The same disparity in data is all over the internet too. How do you find a reliable source of information? What do you guys read to get decent fish info? Can you recommend a good website or book with data I can trust? Ho hum. Thanks! :) Muddy |
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Mr. Gardener wrote: What I have learned from RAFM: Filling a large tank with plants and one species of smallish fish to capacity. There are so many kinds of fish that don't do much for me, until you add 30 or 40 or more to a single species tank. I think Gill's species tank of Blue Eyed Gertrudes got me thinking along those lines. Your own mention of all tiger barbs sounds great. Yes, the Tiger barbs are lovely fish. Could I put a couple of small otos or loaches with the barbs, just to keep the algae down a bit? Or would they get nipped to pieces? Cheers :) Muddy |
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muddyfox wrote:
Koi-Lo wrote: Google around or pick up a good book on tropical fish from your LFS. Bone up on what does well in your water, make a list and go from there. :-) Yes, I've got three books and I spend a tonne of time on the internet looking up fish too but the biggest problem I seem to have with research into this area generally is that the books don't agree with each other. One will say such and such a fish is OK from pH 6.5 to pH 7.8 and another will say they need soft acid water (which doesn't agree with pH 7.8!) and another will say suitable for any water type! It drives me crazy. The same disparity in data is all over the internet too. How do you find a reliable source of information? What do you guys read to get decent fish info? Can you recommend a good website or book with data I can trust? Ho hum. Thanks! :) Muddy I agree with you about conflicting information. As a general rule of thumb I tend to look at what my LFS has in stock and watch the fish over a few weeks to see that they have acclimitized to the water conditions. Two places I go to use much the same tap water as me - you can usually ask this as well and get an accurate answer if it is a good place. This newsgroup is quite a good place to ask if you are not sure. When I do google searches I tend to look at more than one site and take the majority view - so if 5 out of 6 sites say hard water and one doesn't I take it that the fish are best suited to hard water (not perfect but as good as I can come up with). Another good source (you're in the UK aren't you from your ISP?) are magazines - Practical Fish Keeping (PFK) is a good one - they also carry a lot of the info on their website after it has been published. An example came up today, in fact. Rams are generally best suited to lower pH and softer water than we have locally. I'm just back from the LFS where they had 3 tankfuls of Rams - really pretty little fish (I've got one at the moment). I started discussing them (as I want some more but am not ready for them yet) and was advised to give them at least another week in the shop before even considering buying them because of the water thing. When it comes to water type IMO (with some notable exceptions such as Discus (soft), Mbunas(hard)) some fish will acclimatise to harder/softer water. It also depends where they are bred - if they were bred in hard water you are in with a better chance. Also make sure that you acclimatise them to your actual tank water when you add them by slowly mixing the tank water into the bag containing the fish. Also bear in mind that some fish do better if the tank is more mature - for example I wouldn't put Clown Loaches into a new tank (even if I'd seeded it) for quite a few weeks. Like you, I'm tempted by Barbs (I like the green ones) but haven't added any yet. I've heard that if you keep them in a group of 6 or more then the fin nipping issue becomes less. I still wouldn't keep them with long-finned fish (although ironically you can now get long-finned barbs). Gill Hope this helps Gill |
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muddyfox wrote:
Altum wrote: Rainbowfish from the Glossolepis, Melanotaenia, and Telmatherina genuses (includes celebes, boseman's, turquoise, and New Guinea red) require hard water. Threadfins do OK in hard water too. Raunbows are easy to keep and much more peaceful than African cichlids. Some species get as large as 5", so be sure you have space for the adults. Thanks for the tip - I will research rainbow fish - see what they look like. Tiger barbs get bad press because they're nippy little SOBs. Put them in a species tank, or forget about them. If you put them in with swordtails like you were suggesting, the swords will be constantly damaged. Goodness - just shows you can't believe everything your read. I got the idea for swordtails from the 'Tiger Barb and Active Community Fish Tank' at http://www.elmersaquarium.com/ I assumed that they were a reputable site with decent compatability info. But if they're advising something that's going to lead to fish being injured I'll stop looking stuff up there. You have to be so careful in this hobby. Thanks for your help. Read comments on adult sizes of monos and scats above. To run a full brackish setup, you use sal****er mix and monitor salinity with a hydrometer. SG should be around 1.011. The high alkalinity and pH means ammonia is very toxic so stocking should be lower than in freshwater. You need good wet/dry or biowheel filtration, but UV, RO and a skimmer are not necessary. Yes, if the mono's get that big I'm going to pass on them. I want something that will be quite happy at it's full adult size in the tank. Rainbows are great fish. Be careful as some are not suited to hard water (my LFS advises against Thread Fins without intervening to soften the water). I have some Red Rainbows, Boesman Rainbows and some (well rather a lot of) dinky Blue Eyed Gertrude Rainbows. One thing to bear in mind is that most of the rainbows (especially the Reds and the Boesmans) do not get their full colour for some time (up to a year even) but once they do they are spectacular - one of my Reds and one of my Boesmans are getting their adult colouration right now (I have had them since September last year). So when you see them in the shop they are generally quite drab and you might miss them...what got me hooked on them was the fact that one place had a display tank set up with mature ones. I agree with Altum that the Rainbows are easier to keep than the African Cichlids (another option for hardwater). I have a tankful of Mbunas and they are mean - all from the same lake (Malawi) but still aggressive towards one another - they look great but breed like rabbits...and the odd murder is not unheard of... Gill |
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On 23 Mar 2006 03:00:01 -0800, "muddyfox"
wrote: Mr. Gardener wrote: What I have learned from RAFM: Filling a large tank with plants and one species of smallish fish to capacity. There are so many kinds of fish that don't do much for me, until you add 30 or 40 or more to a single species tank. I think Gill's species tank of Blue Eyed Gertrudes got me thinking along those lines. Your own mention of all tiger barbs sounds great. Yes, the Tiger barbs are lovely fish. Could I put a couple of small otos or loaches with the barbs, just to keep the algae down a bit? Or would they get nipped to pieces? Cheers :) Muddy I've never seen them in the large school we are talking about here, so I have no way to know how they will behave toward the peaceful guys. -- Mister Gardener |
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muddyfox wrote:
Altum wrote: Rainbowfish from the Glossolepis, Melanotaenia, and Telmatherina genuses (includes celebes, boseman's, turquoise, and New Guinea red) require hard water. Thanks for the tip - I will research rainbow fish - see what they look like. A couple of newer species tha may be hard to find but are outstandingly colored are M. parva and G. pseudoinsicus (sp?). Both are full grown at around 3" so can be kept in a given tank size than their bigger relatives. -- It's turtles, all the way down |
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Thanks for the info. I get Practical Fishkeeping by subscription and
have been on their site a few times. I think I will start to search out fish I'm interested in there. It's great magazine. I've also found this newsgroup brilliant for advice and although not everyone always agrees, there is usually a clear consensus. (Thanks everyone! :) ) I've loved the look of Rams ever since I saw a lovely species tank of Sunburst Rams at my LFS. I read up about them a while ago and decided against them in the end because people seemed to have experience of them dying for no apparent reason. Maybe it is the water thing - perhaps they are not a fish which adjusts well? Stunning though. Thanks, Muddy |
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"muddyfox" wrote in message oups.com... How do you find a reliable source of information? What do you guys read to get decent fish info? Can you recommend a good website or book with data I can trust? ==================== I pretty much do what Gill does. If several sites or books say suchandsuch a fish comes from soft water and another book (or website) contradicts that, I will go by the several that agree on water conditions. An example are Angelfish. This fish is supposed to do best in softer water under 7. and yet they do very well in my water with a PH of 7.6 to 7.8 and hard - go figure! Bettas which bred easily for me in NYC's softer acid water don't breed at all here unless the water is treated. At least that's been my experience. Like the old PH shock thing - there are probably more things involved than just PH and hardness/softness. -- Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995... Aquariums since 1952 My Pond & Aquarium Pages: http://tinyurl.com/9do58 ~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o |
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muddyfox wrote:
Thanks for the info. I get Practical Fishkeeping by subscription and have been on their site a few times. I think I will start to search out fish I'm interested in there. It's great magazine. I've also found this newsgroup brilliant for advice and although not everyone always agrees, there is usually a clear consensus. (Thanks everyone! :) ) I've loved the look of Rams ever since I saw a lovely species tank of Sunburst Rams at my LFS. I read up about them a while ago and decided against them in the end because people seemed to have experience of them dying for no apparent reason. Maybe it is the water thing - perhaps they are not a fish which adjusts well? Stunning though. Thanks, Muddy April's PFK has an article on fish for hardwater - might be worth reading, although the suggestions were pretty much the same as you have had already. I've had terrible experiences with Rams some lasting hours and the longest lived over 6 months (my current boy). Perhaps I should start spelling it R*m just in case - lol. From talking to people at both of the LFS's I tend to frequent they agree with the fact that these fish are difficult to keep but can do well once the initial adjustment period is over. I'm still pretty sure this is down to trying to keep low pH/soft water fish in a high pH/hard water area - it would be interesting to know if people with soft water have the same experiences with them. I think that the advice I got today from the bloke in the LFS about waiting until they had had them for at least one week is certainly good advice (they arrived last Tuesday)....then hopefully it should lessen the chance of them dying on me because of the shock of being in hardwater with a high pH...I don't know how often you get to your LFS (as I don't really work I can go frequently) but it is worth trying to monitor the fish that they do get in... Gill My boy is about to undergo a tank upgrade - I must admit I am a little nervous about moving him but really need the space where his existing home is...and he should love the space in his new tank... |
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In article . com,
muddyfox wrote: Richard Sexton wrote: My favorite tank for years had one species of Cryptocoryne and Endlers and that's it. Both took off like mad and there were hundreds of each. That sounds lovely - what spp of Crypt did you use? Did you have any additional lighting? I've used a 20W 24" tube and have tried warm white, cool white, daylight and chroma 50. I've used screw in fluorescents and 80W of comnpact fluporescent. The plants grow darker and shorter leaves with stronger light and larger with dimmer light as they reach up to it. As to what sepecies of Crypt they are, uh, yeah, well, ABOUT THAT. I dunno. They're in the wendtii species-complex and I *think* they're undulatus. They don't divide like wedntii (clusters of plantlets at the base) but instead throw long runners. They're the most prolific aquatic plant I've ever seen. I started with one several years ago and have thrown away hundreds over the years. And given away 10X that many. http://images.aquaria.net/plants/Cryptocoryne/u/UND/ http://images.aquaria.net/fish/liveb.../rjs/09-05-03/ -- Need Mercedes parts? http://parts.mbz.org Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org 1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home pages: http://rs79.vrx.net 633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net |
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In article ,
Koi-Lo wrote: "muddyfox" wrote in message roups.com... How do you find a reliable source of information? What do you guys read to get decent fish info? Can you recommend a good website or book with data I can trust? ==================== I pretty much do what Gill does. If several sites or books say suchandsuch a fish comes from soft water and another book (or website) contradicts that, I will go by the several that agree on water conditions. An example are Angelfish. This fish is supposed to do best in softer water under 7. and yet they do very well in my water with a PH of 7.6 to 7.8 and hard - go figure! Bettas which bred easily for me in NYC's softer acid water don't breed at all here unless the water is treated. At least that's been my experience. Like the old PH shock thing - there are probably more things involved than just PH and hardness/softness. Nah. Soft water fish will only produce viable eggs in soft water. But they'll live fine in hard water. In fact, they'll live better in hard water than soft water. The current issue iof Practical Fishkeeping has an article about this. -- Need Mercedes parts? http://parts.mbz.org Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org 1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home pages: http://rs79.vrx.net 633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net |
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Richard Sexton wrote:
In article , Koi-Lo wrote: "muddyfox" wrote in message groups.com... How do you find a reliable source of information? What do you guys read to get decent fish info? Can you recommend a good website or book with data I can trust? ==================== I pretty much do what Gill does. If several sites or books say suchandsuch a fish comes from soft water and another book (or website) contradicts that, I will go by the several that agree on water conditions. An example are Angelfish. This fish is supposed to do best in softer water under 7. and yet they do very well in my water with a PH of 7.6 to 7.8 and hard - go figure! Bettas which bred easily for me in NYC's softer acid water don't breed at all here unless the water is treated. At least that's been my experience. Like the old PH shock thing - there are probably more things involved than just PH and hardness/softness. Nah. Soft water fish will only produce viable eggs in soft water. But they'll live fine in hard water. In fact, they'll live better in hard water than soft water. The current issue iof Practical Fishkeeping has an article about this. So you now buy this in Canada? Actually that is only part of the article but you are right that this is the main disadvantage mentioned. I've just checked and it isn't on-line yet - a few days and I'm sure it will be.... Gill |
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In article ,
Gill Passman wrote: The current issue iof Practical Fishkeeping has an article about this. So you now buy this in Canada? Actually that is only part of the article but you are right that this is the main disadvantage mentioned. I've just checked and it isn't on-line yet - a few days and I'm sure it will be.... Nah, I was only able to find it in Los Angeles. Go figure. -- Need Mercedes parts? http://parts.mbz.org Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org 1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home pages: http://rs79.vrx.net 633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net |
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Richard Sexton wrote:
In article , Gill Passman wrote: The current issue iof Practical Fishkeeping has an article about this. So you now buy this in Canada? Actually that is only part of the article but you are right that this is the main disadvantage mentioned. I've just checked and it isn't on-line yet - a few days and I'm sure it will be.... Nah, I was only able to find it in Los Angeles. Go figure. Apparently they now accept subscriptions from NA....what was that mag you write for from time to time???? I'd quite love to get it over here.... Gill |
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You know, I read that article last week and never noticed the bit about
soft-water fish doing well in hard water - just read it again and found it! Well, that's good news. Regards, Muddy |
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Richard Sexton wrote: I dunno. They're in the wendtii species-complex and I *think* they're undulatus. They don't divide like wedntii (clusters of plantlets at the base) but instead throw long runners. Interesting... They're the most prolific aquatic plant I've ever seen. I started with one several years ago and have thrown away hundreds over the years. And given away 10X that many. WOW - they sound fantastic. I have some wendtii in my betta tank. Just had a look - no plantlets at the base, but no plantlets coming up from runners away from the main plant either. Mind you, they've not been in that long. I'll have to wait and see. I'd love it if they were the ones you had. http://images.aquaria.net/plants/Cryptocoryne/u/UND/ http://images.aquaria.net/fish/liveb.../rjs/09-05-03/ I love the endlers - they have real visiual imact in a crowd like that. Beautiful colouration too. Thanks for showing me!, Muddy |
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"muddyfox" wrote in message
oups.com... You know, I read that article last week and never noticed the bit about soft-water fish doing well in hard water - just read it again and found it! Well, that's good news. Regards, Muddy Just my opinions, but i) soft water fish do badly in very hard water (too hard on their kidneys). ii) pound for pound, African mbuna are more aggressive than south or central American fish. iii) you could never keep any Monodactylidae in such a small tank - they outgrow 4' tanks. iv) keeping fish from the same lake will not help with aggression, and is just as likely to worsen it. For such a small tank with hard water, I would look at shellies (small Tanganyikan cichlids), African Gobies (Eretromodus cynostictus (sp?)), some of the smaller rainbows (ie: Neon Rainbow), Julies (the smaller ones), Neritidae snails, and Killies (I'm surprised Richard didn't mention them ;~). -- www.NetMax.tk |
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In article ,
NetMax wrote: Just my opinions, but i) soft water fish do badly in very hard water (too hard on their kidneys). Eh. Not in my experience. I keep killifish that are found in 0DH 4.5 pH terra typica and I keep them in liquid rock. They won't breed in this stuff, I have to use RO but they do just fine. Scheel (_Rivulins of the old world_ TFH press, 1968) strongly urges keeping rainforest soft water fish in hard water to reduce occurance of Mycobacteria which does poorly in hard water to the point of not being a problem. I've followed this practice for a couple of decades, as does every killifan I know. -- Need Mercedes parts? http://parts.mbz.org Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org 1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home pages: http://rs79.vrx.net 633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net |
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"Richard Sexton" wrote in message
... In article , NetMax wrote: Just my opinions, but i) soft water fish do badly in very hard water (too hard on their kidneys). Eh. Not in my experience. I keep killifish that are found in 0DH 4.5 pH terra typica and I keep them in liquid rock. They won't breed in this stuff, I have to use RO but they do just fine. Scheel (_Rivulins of the old world_ TFH press, 1968) strongly urges keeping rainforest soft water fish in hard water to reduce occurance of Mycobacteria which does poorly in hard water to the point of not being a problem. I've followed this practice for a couple of decades, as does every killifan I know. -- Need Mercedes parts? http://parts.mbz.org Richard Sexton So you agree with my recommendation that some killis would be appropriate in hard water ;~). Which soft water fish do poorly in hard water is a complex topic which is unlikely to be clearly answered anytime soon The smaller the fish, and the more its complete life cycle has evolved around soft water, the more prone it would be expected to be, to have ailments attributable to hard water. Some botia from the Mekong and some tetras from the Amazon are good candidates. Discus appear to be quite sensitive to gH as well. A possible distinction might be drawn between fish which use soft water as a spawning trigger, and fish which will simply not develop eggs in hard water. Too complex a topic for me. They might survive, but exhibit mild long term symptoms of stress (beyond never spawning), such as different growth rates, age, colour intensity etc. Killis might not be a representative example as they exist at both extremes, but are there known differences between killifish kept at one extreme as opposed to the other? -- www.NetMax.tk |
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