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New Tank Still Struggling??
Hello All,
I posted here a few months ago when I was starting my first tank (I guess I still am starting . . ). Here's a synopsis. Started with a 26 gallon tank And added 2 Mollys, 1 Guppy and 1 Swordtail. Not fully understaning how to cycle the tank, all but one of the Mollys died after two weeks due to the ammonia spike. I kept monitoring the ammonia levels and after a few weeks, noticed them dropping off and the Nitrites spiking (as expected ). A few weeks later the Nitrites started dropping and the Nitrates started climbing. All the while, I was doing regular partial water changes (about 20 %), in the hopes of saving my one Molly, even though I knew it would extend the time it would take to cycle. After a week or so of no noticable Ammonia or Nitrites and a small amout of Nitrates, I added two Female Plattys. I monitored my levels for about two weeks and everything looked normal (Ammonia=0, Nitrites=0, Nitrates minimal). This puts me at this past weekend I noticed my Filter (Whisper Power 30) overflowing from the 'Wonder Tube Chamber', indicating the need to change the filter (according to the manual). I purchased a new filter, did a partial water change (20%) and added 2 new fish (1 Swordtail, 1 Molly). Over the last few days, I've been checking my levels and have not seen any unusual spikes in Ammonia or Nitrites or Nitrates, yet by this morning, the two new fish I just purchased were dead (after 4 days). Another Check of the levels shows the following: pH: 7.8 Alkalinity: 120 Hardness: 7.5 Ammonia: 0.25 mg/L (hard to tell by the color result, but appears to be a trace) Nitrites: 0 mg/L Nitrates: 20 mg/L My biggest question is if changing the filter was a bad move as there appears to be a trace of ammonia. I wouldn't think that this would be enough to kill them, however, and that there should be enough bacteria in the bio-foam and gravel to handle the load. My other three fish, including the two I bought a few weeks ago seem fine, at least for now. Any help or suggestions would be appreciated. Jon |
New Tank Still Struggling??
wrote in message oups.com... Hello All, I posted here a few months ago when I was starting my first tank (I guess I still am starting . . ). Here's a synopsis. Started with a 26 gallon tank And added 2 Mollys, 1 Guppy and 1 Swordtail. Not fully understaning how to cycle the tank, all but one of the Mollys died after two weeks due to the ammonia spike. I kept monitoring the ammonia levels and after a few weeks, noticed them dropping off and the Nitrites spiking (as expected ). A few weeks later the Nitrites started dropping and the Nitrates started climbing. All the while, I was doing regular partial water changes (about 20 %), in the hopes of saving my one Molly, even though I knew it would extend the time it would take to cycle. After a week or so of no noticable Ammonia or Nitrites and a small amout of Nitrates, I added two Female Plattys. I monitored my levels for about two weeks and everything looked normal (Ammonia=0, Nitrites=0, Nitrates minimal). This puts me at this past weekend I noticed my Filter (Whisper Power 30) overflowing from the 'Wonder Tube Chamber', indicating the need to change the filter (according to the manual). I purchased a new filter, did a partial water change (20%) and added 2 new fish (1 Swordtail, 1 Molly). Over the last few days, I've been checking my levels and have not seen any unusual spikes in Ammonia or Nitrites or Nitrates, yet by this morning, the two new fish I just purchased were dead (after 4 days). Another Check of the levels shows the following: pH: 7.8 Alkalinity: 120 Hardness: 7.5 Ammonia: 0.25 mg/L (hard to tell by the color result, but appears to be a trace) Nitrites: 0 mg/L Nitrates: 20 mg/L My biggest question is if changing the filter was a bad move as there appears to be a trace of ammonia. I wouldn't think that this would be enough to kill them, however, and that there should be enough bacteria in the bio-foam and gravel to handle the load. My other three fish, including the two I bought a few weeks ago seem fine, at least for now. Any help or suggestions would be appreciated. Jon There are a lot of people on here who know about cycling and could tell you if maybe your tank started to recycle, anyway I just wanted to say, I don't usually change my filter unless it really needs it, I clean it out with water, because you need the good bacteria in it. If your talking about a hang on the back filter I have had mine over flow from not having it situated right. nikki |
New Tank Still Struggling??
Mollies are much better in brackish water, ie with an amount of salt
added as they are prone to disease in normal freshwater tanks. I would never have them in my tank for this reason having found out the hard way losing large numbers. |
New Tank Still Struggling??
On Thu, 23 Mar 2006 09:55:19 -0500, "Nikki"
wrote: wrote in message roups.com... Hello All, I posted here a few months ago when I was starting my first tank (I guess I still am starting . . ). Here's a synopsis. Started with a 26 gallon tank And added 2 Mollys, 1 Guppy and 1 Swordtail. Not fully understaning how to cycle the tank, all but one of the Mollys died after two weeks due to the ammonia spike. I kept monitoring the ammonia levels and after a few weeks, noticed them dropping off and the Nitrites spiking (as expected ). A few weeks later the Nitrites started dropping and the Nitrates started climbing. All the while, I was doing regular partial water changes (about 20 %), in the hopes of saving my one Molly, even though I knew it would extend the time it would take to cycle. After a week or so of no noticable Ammonia or Nitrites and a small amout of Nitrates, I added two Female Plattys. I monitored my levels for about two weeks and everything looked normal (Ammonia=0, Nitrites=0, Nitrates minimal). This puts me at this past weekend I noticed my Filter (Whisper Power 30) overflowing from the 'Wonder Tube Chamber', indicating the need to change the filter (according to the manual). I purchased a new filter, did a partial water change (20%) and added 2 new fish (1 Swordtail, 1 Molly). Over the last few days, I've been checking my levels and have not seen any unusual spikes in Ammonia or Nitrites or Nitrates, yet by this morning, the two new fish I just purchased were dead (after 4 days). Another Check of the levels shows the following: pH: 7.8 Alkalinity: 120 Hardness: 7.5 Ammonia: 0.25 mg/L (hard to tell by the color result, but appears to be a trace) Nitrites: 0 mg/L Nitrates: 20 mg/L My biggest question is if changing the filter was a bad move as there appears to be a trace of ammonia. I wouldn't think that this would be enough to kill them, however, and that there should be enough bacteria in the bio-foam and gravel to handle the load. My other three fish, including the two I bought a few weeks ago seem fine, at least for now. Any help or suggestions would be appreciated. Jon There are a lot of people on here who know about cycling and could tell you if maybe your tank started to recycle, anyway I just wanted to say, I don't usually change my filter unless it really needs it, I clean it out with water, because you need the good bacteria in it. If your talking about a hang on the back filter I have had mine over flow from not having it situated right. nikki Whisper biobags can be rinsed in old tank water or non chlorinated lukewarm water and be used for a few more weeks. The Whisper biosponge should have had a healthy population of bacteria after all these weeks, and the plastic frame for the biobag is also designed to retain bacteria. You also have bacteria on your gravel and other surfaces in the water. I don't think your filter change had anything to do with your fish loss and your rise in ammonia a few days after changing the biobag. I wonder if the ammonia could be from the decomposing fish corpses. You did three things on the same day, you did a water change, you did a filter media change, and you added fish. I would have waited a couple of days between each of those procedures. And my fish might have died just like yours, but I would have known at what point in the tank maintenance tasks the fish died. Which may or may not have given me a clue as to why the died. And if you intend to continue with Whisper filters, buy your biobags by the 12 or 24 pack and save yourself a bundle. -- Mister Gardener |
New Tank Still Struggling??
Thanks to all for the responses. I was a little concerned about
changing the bio-bag, but it had been running for about 3 months and had noticed a decrease in the flow of water back into the tank (along with the overflow). You mentioned that the plastic frame from the bio-bag is designed to retain bacteria. When I replaced the bio-bag, should I have removed the frame from the old bag and put it in the new one, or just changed the entire bio-bag (like I did)? Again, I'm not sure if that was the cause or not. Doing all three in one day was just us being impatient. Of course, we're learning more and more how patience is one of the keys! I'll continue monitoring my levels to see if the Ammonia keeps rising. The first one that died yesterday was probably dead in the tank for at least half of the day when I was at work. The second for not very long. Jon |
New Tank Still Struggling??
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New Tank Still Struggling??
wrote in message oups.com... I'll continue monitoring my levels to see if the Ammonia keeps rising. The first one that died yesterday was probably dead in the tank for at least half of the day when I was at work. The second for not very long. ==================== I hope you're not bringing them home and putting them into your tank without acclimating them to your water conditions. We used to call that PH shock but more is involved that others can better explain. There is one store that has a PH of 6.6 to 6.8 and their water is very soft. If I just add fish from there to my Quarantine tank (everything gets quarantined here) with it's high alkalinity, hardness and PH of 7.8, I am almost guaranteed to lose most of them. -- Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995... Aquariums since 1952 My Pond & Aquarium Pages: http://tinyurl.com/9do58 ~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o |
New Tank Still Struggling??
"Koi-Lo" wrote in message ... wrote in message oups.com... I'll continue monitoring my levels to see if the Ammonia keeps rising. The first one that died yesterday was probably dead in the tank for at least half of the day when I was at work. The second for not very long. ==================== I hope you're not bringing them home and putting them into your tank without acclimating them to your water conditions. We used to call that PH shock but more is involved that others can better explain. There is one store that has a PH of 6.6 to 6.8 and their water is very soft. If I just add fish from there to my Quarantine tank (everything gets quarantined here) with it's high alkalinity, hardness and PH of 7.8, I am almost guaranteed to lose most of them. -- Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995... Aquariums since 1952 My Pond & Aquarium Pages: http://tinyurl.com/9do58 ~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o jon, sorry, guess i was wrong....i just know when i used to change my filters alot i had problems and someone told me it was not a great idea to change them to often, i think we may have different filters. But when i clean mine off i just scoop out some water from the tank and rinse it, but mine also overflows when it gets yucky. Nik koi as you are getting them used to your water, do you put water from your tank into their bag? that's what I do, but I'm sure not long enough, but I have not lost fish from it yet, then again me an the fish store are probably using the same water she is only five min from me, anyway how long do you wait before putting them in your tank? just wondering? have you ever spilled the bag with fish in it while trying to do it, I hate those stupid bags, I got some little guppies for my sons tank he wants something with his ADF, and as I was putting the water in the bag from his tank, over it went, fish were all over my kitchen counter, my six year old did not think it was funny, but my two older ones "teenagers" of course were laughing so hard, I'm trying to get them to help me catch them and they had to leave the room they were laughing so hard, anyway not the first time I have done that to some innocent fish, they should put something at the bottom of the bags so they sit up right when you take the band off. |
New Tank Still Struggling??
I think it very well could have been a combination of the filter change
and the new additions that caused the ammonia spike. The nitrogen cycle can be fragile in newly established tanks. The majority of nitrifying bacteria DO live in the filter media and then secondly in the gravel and decor and very few are just swimming about the tank. I do a quick swish of the old filter in the water before making the change to a new filter bag. Also, when cycling you established enough bacteria to support the bioload you had. When your fish died and there was just one molly left some of that bacteria may have died off leaving only what was needed to sustain the bioload. Adding new fish to that could cause a hiccup in the cycle allowing you to see small amounts of ammonia. To simplify, all of a sudden you had more ammonia then your bacteria could consume. I went through a lot of stress myself when I first learned about tank cycling and put it into action. All I can say is, once it all works itself out, it is SO worth it! :D Hang in there. |
New Tank Still Struggling??
Nikki wrote:
"Koi-Lo" wrote in message ... wrote in message groups.com... I'll continue monitoring my levels to see if the Ammonia keeps rising. The first one that died yesterday was probably dead in the tank for at least half of the day when I was at work. The second for not very long. ==================== I hope you're not bringing them home and putting them into your tank without acclimating them to your water conditions. We used to call that PH shock but more is involved that others can better explain. There is one store that has a PH of 6.6 to 6.8 and their water is very soft. If I just add fish from there to my Quarantine tank (everything gets quarantined here) with it's high alkalinity, hardness and PH of 7.8, I am almost guaranteed to lose most of them. -- Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995... Aquariums since 1952 My Pond & Aquarium Pages: http://tinyurl.com/9do58 ~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o jon, sorry, guess i was wrong....i just know when i used to change my filters alot i had problems and someone told me it was not a great idea to change them to often, i think we may have different filters. But when i clean mine off i just scoop out some water from the tank and rinse it, but mine also overflows when it gets yucky. Nik koi as you are getting them used to your water, do you put water from your tank into their bag? that's what I do, but I'm sure not long enough, but I have not lost fish from it yet, then again me an the fish store are probably using the same water she is only five min from me, anyway how long do you wait before putting them in your tank? just wondering? have you ever spilled the bag with fish in it while trying to do it, I hate those stupid bags, I got some little guppies for my sons tank he wants something with his ADF, and as I was putting the water in the bag from his tank, over it went, fish were all over my kitchen counter, my six year old did not think it was funny, but my two older ones "teenagers" of course were laughing so hard, I'm trying to get them to help me catch them and they had to leave the room they were laughing so hard, anyway not the first time I have done that to some innocent fish, they should put something at the bottom of the bags so they sit up right when you take the band off. ROFLOL - I tried putting some Panda cories and some Amano shrimps into my new tank yesterday....the bags just floated off into obscurity....I managed to catch the Panda bag and drip feed them a bit more but the shrimps had already gone off into the great beyond...I've had fish jump from the bag once I snip the top - fortunately into the tank water rather than onto the floor...but Yep, I still do the drip, drip stuff by the rules even though the fish have proved it unnecessary from time to time....or just decided they can't be bothered with it and want straight in....(but my LFS water is the same pH and hardness as mine) Gill |
New Tank Still Struggling??
On Thu, 23 Mar 2006 12:23:50 -0600, "Koi-Lo"
wrote: wrote in message roups.com... I'll continue monitoring my levels to see if the Ammonia keeps rising. The first one that died yesterday was probably dead in the tank for at least half of the day when I was at work. The second for not very long. ==================== I hope you're not bringing them home and putting them into your tank without acclimating them to your water conditions. We used to call that PH shock but more is involved that others can better explain. There is one store that has a PH of 6.6 to 6.8 and their water is very soft. If I just add fish from there to my Quarantine tank (everything gets quarantined here) with it's high alkalinity, hardness and PH of 7.8, I am almost guaranteed to lose most of them. I operate on the assumption, and we all know what they say about assuming, that everyone who posts here has read The FAQs at The Krib. And for those who haven't, well, head on over there. http://faq.thekrib.com/begin.html -- Mister Gardener |
New Tank Still Struggling??
On Thu, 23 Mar 2006 14:18:29 -0500, "Nikki"
wrote: as you are getting them used to your water, do you put water from your tank into their bag? that's what I do, but I'm sure not long enough, but I have not lost fish from it yet, then again me an the fish store are probably using the same water she is only five min from me, anyway how long do you wait before putting them in your tank? Do not assume the store water is the same as yours. It may have originated from the same source, but it has been used and altered in many different ways than your own and the parameters may be much different. I've gotten into the habit of keeping the store water out of my tanks. I have a great big white plastic measuring cup, it holds at least a half gallon, I use it to mix muffin or cake batter. Well, I used to use it for that. Now it's fish only. I float my bag of fish in the aquarium for about 10 minutes to equalize the temperature. Then I put a cup of my tank water in the big bowl, open the bag and pour the fish and water from the pet shop into that bowl. I sit the bowl on top of the aquarium glass top by the light, which helps keep the temperature up. I lay a piece of newspaper over the cup, so the fish are essentially in the dark. I add a cup of water from my aquarium about every 15 minutes. When the fish in the bowl water is more tank water than store water, I take the measuring cup mixing bowl to the kitchen and, over a larger bowl I pour the fish and water through my net and take the fish and net to the aquarium where they are released. I believe that acclimating them in a dimly lit, quiet area is less stressful than being trapped in a clear plastic bag in a tank with all sorts of strangers looking in. The big bowl below is to catch any fish I might spill in the pouring, but so far that hasn't happened yet. At one of the pet stores I visit on occasion, the entire staff is trained to say "don't put our water in your tank" right along with thank you and have a great day. And, of course, they offer to teach acclimation. It's become like a mantra for me, and on those rare occasions when I think I'm about to cheat, I feel guilty and sinful. -- Mister Gardener |
New Tank Still Struggling??
"Nikki" wrote in message ... koi as you are getting them used to your water, do you put water from your tank into their bag? No Kikki, what I do is slowly pour them into a clear gallon container that's shaped like a plastic milk jug and discard the bag. I carefully pour most of the water they were in down the drain, leaving their backs covered. I then add about 1/4 to 1/3 cup of water from the Q-tank into the container about every 15 to 20 minutes or so. I also have an air bubbler running for them in the container. But it works without the bubbler just as well. I keep adding more and more water until they're in about 80% Q-tank water - then gently move them to the Q-tank. This can take several hours but it's well worth the effort and time. that's what I do, but I'm sure not long enough, but I have not lost fish from it yet, then again me an the fish store are probably using the same water she is only five min from me, anyway how long do you wait before putting them in your tank? It depends on how long it takes me to get the water in the container to about 80% or so of what's in the Q-tank. I am seldom exact about anything but medications. ;-) It also depends on where I bought them. That one store in Nashville has such soft acid water it can take 4 or more hours to acclimate them, so I seldom buy fish there anymore. The other two stores have water closer to what I have so it takes no more than maybe 2 hours. Sometimes I forget to add more water for 30 minutes so that adds time... to the fishes benefit. But I don't get any "gaspers" anymore who turn up dead in anything from hours to days. just wondering? have you ever spilled the bag with fish in it while trying to do it, I hate those stupid bags, No, since I remove them from the bag and put them in the container as soon as I get home. Also, I don't putz around when I buy fish - I go STRAIGHT HOME with them. As for such accidents.... yes, I just did that recently with some of my own fish I was putting outside in a 780g pool. The water outside is a little different that what's in my tanks so wanted to acclimate them for at least 20 to 30 minutes (there was also a temperature difference) - and dropped the whole bucket into the pool! AAARGGGHHH!!!! They hid in the plants for a few days but where fine. :-))) My Shubunkins are pretty tough customers. I did kill some perarlscales the time I got home late and had no time to acclimate them. We had some place to go and I was really pressed for time. Instead of putting them in a tub to acclimate them with a bubbler until we got back - I just put them in the Q-tank. BIG MISTAKE. Half were dead in less than a week. :*( I got some little guppies for my sons tank he wants something with his ADF, and as I was putting the water in the bag from his tank, over it went, fish were all over my kitchen counter, my six year old did not think it was funny, but my two older ones "teenagers" of course were laughing so hard, I'm trying to get them to help me catch them and they had to leave the room they were laughing so hard, LOL!!! That's teenagers for ya! :-D anyway not the first time I have done that to some innocent fish, they should put something at the bottom of the bags so they sit up right when you take the band off. I remove the band and turn the bag upside-down holding the top shut and let most of the water pour off down the drain (I have a drain "strainer" thing to catch any fish I may drop). Be careful. Then still holding the bag upside-down I put it gently into the acclimation container. Then slowly release the top and the fish sort of gently pour out into the container. I discard the bag and start adding the water from the Q-tank. No more fish dying at the surface gasping........ -- Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995... Aquariums since 1952 My Pond & Aquarium Pages: http://tinyurl.com/9do58 ~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o |
New Tank Still Struggling??
Mr. Gardener wrote:
I've gotten into the habit of keeping the store water out of my tanks. I have a great big white plastic measuring cup ... Boy, folks sure have complicated ways of acclimatizing fish :) . I float the bag 10 minutes, then dump the fish into a net over a bucket. The netted fish go into the aquarium and the store water stays out. So far, so good. |
New Tank Still Struggling??
"Mr. Gardener" wrote in message ... On Thu, 23 Mar 2006 12:23:50 -0600, "Koi-Lo" wrote: I hope you're not bringing them home and putting them into your tank without acclimating them to your water conditions. We used to call that PH shock but more is involved that others can better explain. There is one store that has a PH of 6.6 to 6.8 and their water is very soft. If I just add fish from there to my Quarantine tank (everything gets quarantined here) with it's high alkalinity, hardness and PH of 7.8, I am almost guaranteed to lose most of them. I operate on the assumption, and we all know what they say about assuming, that everyone who posts here has read The FAQs at The Krib. And for those who haven't, well, head on over there. http://faq.thekrib.com/begin.html ============================= More specifically: http://faq.thekrib.com/begin-addfish.html#acclimation -- Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995... Aquariums since 1952 My Pond & Aquarium Pages: http://tinyurl.com/9do58 ~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o |
New Tank Still Struggling??
Jlen wrote,
I purchased a new filter, did a partial water change (20%) and added 2 new fish.......... I would never change 100% of the bio-media within the filter - and I would never add fish at the same time... Hard to tell the cause of the new fish dying; most likely osmotic pressure shock, could have been stress shock, but not ammonia or nitrite poisoning. Ammonia or nitrite poisoning only takes from a few mins. to a few hours, not days to kill a fish. Besides, it would have killed the other fish in the tank also! If you selected healthy fish from the store, the only other reason for the fish to die is poor acclimation............ Frank |
New Tank Still Struggling??
On Thu, 23 Mar 2006 18:56:08 -0500, netDenizen wrote:
Mr. Gardener wrote: I've gotten into the habit of keeping the store water out of my tanks. I have a great big white plastic measuring cup ... Boy, folks sure have complicated ways of acclimatizing fish :) . I float the bag 10 minutes, then dump the fish into a net over a bucket. The netted fish go into the aquarium and the store water stays out. So far, so good. I used to do that, years ago. But my current lfs has such wildly different water quality from my own, he's very hard and alkaline, I'm very soft and acid, that I have dragged out my acclimation exercises to a much more gradual transition. I've read that it is more difficult for a fish to go from hard water to soft than it is to go from soft to hard. I don't know if it's true, but taking my time doesn't hurt. -- Mister Gardener |
New Tank Still Struggling??
On Thu, 23 Mar 2006 19:21:27 -0600, "Koi-Lo"
wrote: http://faq.thekrib.com/begin.html ============================= More specifically: http://faq.thekrib.com/begin-addfish.html#acclimation I think we all need to begin at the beginning. -- Mister Gardener |
New Tank Still Struggling??
On Fri, 24 Mar 2006 07:53:53 -0500, Mr. Gardener
wrote: On Thu, 23 Mar 2006 18:56:08 -0500, netDenizen wrote: Mr. Gardener wrote: I've gotten into the habit of keeping the store water out of my tanks. I have a great big white plastic measuring cup ... Boy, folks sure have complicated ways of acclimatizing fish :) . I float the bag 10 minutes, then dump the fish into a net over a bucket. The netted fish go into the aquarium and the store water stays out. So far, so good. In the past, I had no qualms about dumping the store water into my tank with the fish. The distant pass. I knew then that it was not a good practice. Nowadays my lfs drops little tablets in the bag that turn the water blue. Oxygen tablets, he says. Whatever he calls them, blue water still calls up memories of methylene blue and sick tanks and I know I don't want that stuff in my tank even if it is good oxygen. So his blue water essentially forces me to stick to the rules when adding fish to my tank. -- Mister Gardener |
New Tank Still Struggling??
On 24 Mar 2006 07:40:16 -0800, "Frank"
wrote: Seems like I acclimate quite a bit different than most people. I hace a 10 gal. quarantine tank that has a foot print of a 5 gal. tank, just twice as high. I only buy fish from a couple of mom and pop stores that I know they know how to treat and keep healthy fish. I only buy healthy active fish, fins erect, smooth skin with a wet look shine, clear Just before sitting down at my computer, I finally got my 10 gallon QT tank up and running. Seeded the filter with a very ripe biosponge from a very old tank, at the same time set up a couple of sponge filters in that old tank with a slow bubbling air pump, just to sit there for a few weeks and be ready for whatever whenever. -- Mister Gardener |
New Tank Still Struggling??
"Mr. Gardener" wrote in message
... On 24 Mar 2006 07:40:16 -0800, "Frank" wrote: Seems like I acclimate quite a bit different than most people. I hace a 10 gal. quarantine tank that has a foot print of a 5 gal. tank, just twice as high. I only buy fish from a couple of mom and pop stores that I know they know how to treat and keep healthy fish. I only buy healthy active fish, fins erect, smooth skin with a wet look shine, clear Just before sitting down at my computer, I finally got my 10 gallon QT tank up and running. Seeded the filter with a very ripe biosponge from a very old tank, at the same time set up a couple of sponge filters in that old tank with a slow bubbling air pump, just to sit there for a few weeks and be ready for whatever whenever. -- Mister Gardener Don't forget to periodically feed the tank's bacteria. A sprinkle of flake food should do. -- www.NetMax.tk |
New Tank Still Struggling??
Frank wrote:
Mr. Gardener wrote, more difficult for a fish to go from hard water to soft than it is to go from soft to hard. I don't know if it's true....... It's true - a sudden drop of 25% TDS will kill some species, mostly smaller species. You got me curious. A drop from 100 ppm to 75 ppm is a much larger drop than 10 ppm to 7.5 ppm. I like to do 50% water changes and if I do them weekly I don't seem to have any problems. It keeps the KH nice and high, my water stays very low in DOC, and the tank water is closer to tap water for when I decide to move fish around or put new ones in quarantine. What's the threshold where the TDS make less of a difference, or is there one? -- Put the word aquaria in the subject to reply. Did you read the FAQ? http://faq.thekrib.com |
New Tank Still Struggling??
Again, Thanks for the responses.
I should have phrased it that I changed the 'bio-bag', leaving the bio-sponge in place, thinking that there would be enough bacteria in the sponge, gravel etc, to handle the load . . . but perhaps not. At this point, I'm chalking it up to a combination of the filter change, increasing the bio load, and acclimation. The other fish in the tank seem fine, then again, my original Molly survived the cycle period with high Ammonia/Nitrites so that doesn't surprise me. I never pour water from the lfs into my tank. I learned that on day 1. However, next time I will take more steps then floating the bag for 15 min to acclimate. Jon |
New Tank Still Struggling??
On Fri, 24 Mar 2006 12:50:41 -0500, "NetMax"
wrote: "Mr. Gardener" wrote in message .. . On 24 Mar 2006 07:40:16 -0800, "Frank" wrote: Seems like I acclimate quite a bit different than most people. I hace a 10 gal. quarantine tank that has a foot print of a 5 gal. tank, just twice as high. I only buy fish from a couple of mom and pop stores that I know they know how to treat and keep healthy fish. I only buy healthy active fish, fins erect, smooth skin with a wet look shine, clear Just before sitting down at my computer, I finally got my 10 gallon QT tank up and running. Seeded the filter with a very ripe biosponge from a very old tank, at the same time set up a couple of sponge filters in that old tank with a slow bubbling air pump, just to sit there for a few weeks and be ready for whatever whenever. -- Mister Gardener Don't forget to periodically feed the tank's bacteria. A sprinkle of flake food should do. Oh, I've already given the new tank a loading dose of ammonia, urea, probably some trace elements. A method mentioned in a TFH column. You didn't want to know before, you don't want to ask now. I think someone said TMI. -- Mister Gardener |
New Tank Still Struggling??
On Fri, 24 Mar 2006 17:52:41 GMT, Altum
wrote: Frank wrote: Mr. Gardener wrote, more difficult for a fish to go from hard water to soft than it is to go from soft to hard. I don't know if it's true....... It's true - a sudden drop of 25% TDS will kill some species, mostly smaller species. You got me curious. A drop from 100 ppm to 75 ppm is a much larger drop than 10 ppm to 7.5 ppm. I like to do 50% water changes and if I do them weekly I don't seem to have any problems. It keeps the KH nice and high, my water stays very low in DOC, and the tank water is closer to tap water for when I decide to move fish around or put new ones in quarantine. What's the threshold where the TDS make less of a difference, or is there one? Is this a rhetorical question? Hope so. -- Mister Gardener |
New Tank Still Struggling??
On 24 Mar 2006 11:31:03 -0800, "Frank"
wrote: Altum wrote, I like to do 50% water changes and if I do them weekly I don't seem to have any problems. Breeding and raising fish for 40+ years, I fed 5 and 6 times a day. A lot of my grow-out tanks were those cheap 29 gal. tanks, of which I raised as many as 150 fish to selling size. That took a couple of the larger air-driven sponge filters, an airstone or two, and a *lot* of water changing. After last feed for the day, I siphoned 15 to 20% of the water from the bottom and squeezed the filters clean, 24/7. This kept my tanks clean and the fish healthy. I always had trouble acclimating my fish into the different stores tanks - pH shock, back then! ... Today, it's the other way around - I buy fish from two different stores. They both keep healthy fish, but they don't change near as much water as I do. Their tanks/water is quite a bit softer than mine, and of corse today we don't call it pH shock anymore. Now it's TDS shock, even though most of the stores still call it pH shock. What's the threshold where the TDS make less of a difference, or is there one? ... Not wanting to misunderstand your question, I think the answer your looking for is 25%. I see what your getting at, 100ppm - 75ppm = 25ppm, 10ppm - 7.5ppm = 2.5ppm, but, is not the percentage of total volume the same? .............. Frank Another rhetorical question, I hope. I talked recently with my lfs about the wide difference between my water and his and he blah blah 90% of the fish he sells are so many generations away from their origins that they can do fine anywhere from 6.5 to 8.5 and all degrees of hardness. Yeah but . . . I'm thinking of bringing home some big jugs of his water to begin acclimating my young to his store a week or so before the fish get moved. He then told me that he and his supplier talked about some of the losses he's been seeing, especially in his rainforest fish and the guy's about got him talked into setting up a few tanks and maintaining them for his south american cats and angels and rams and stuff. I'm nudging him along, do it do it do it. -- Mister Gardener |
New Tank Still Struggling??
Frank wrote:
Altum wrote, snip What's the threshold where the TDS make less of a difference, or is there one? ... Not wanting to misunderstand your question, I think the answer your looking for is 25%. I see what your getting at, 100ppm - 75ppm = 25ppm, 10ppm - 7.5ppm = 2.5ppm, but, is not the percentage of total volume the same? .............. Frank Right. But a drop from 10 to 7.5 ppm shouldn't be as physiologically taxing as one from 100 to 75 ppm. Both would be 25% water changes. I guess I'm trying to ask whether you ALWAYS advocate changing only 25% of the water, or whether you can reach a point where it doesn't matter any more because the tank water is close enough to tap water. Are my regular 50% water changes harming my fish in ways that I can't see or measure? How about my betta at work who gets a 100% weekly water change. He seems fine... -- Put the word aquaria in the subject to reply. Did you read the FAQ? http://faq.thekrib.com |
New Tank Still Struggling??
Mr. Gardener wrote:
On 24 Mar 2006 11:31:03 -0800, "Frank" wrote: Altum wrote, I like to do 50% water changes and if I do them weekly I don't seem to have any problems. Breeding and raising fish for 40+ years, I fed 5 and 6 times a day. A lot of my grow-out tanks were those cheap 29 gal. tanks, of which I raised as many as 150 fish to selling size. That took a couple of the larger air-driven sponge filters, an airstone or two, and a *lot* of water changing. After last feed for the day, I siphoned 15 to 20% of the water from the bottom and squeezed the filters clean, 24/7. This kept my tanks clean and the fish healthy. I always had trouble acclimating my fish into the different stores tanks - pH shock, back then! ... Today, it's the other way around - I buy fish from two different stores. They both keep healthy fish, but they don't change near as much water as I do. Their tanks/water is quite a bit softer than mine, and of corse today we don't call it pH shock anymore. Now it's TDS shock, even though most of the stores still call it pH shock. What's the threshold where the TDS make less of a difference, or is there one? ... Not wanting to misunderstand your question, I think the answer your looking for is 25%. I see what your getting at, 100ppm - 75ppm = 25ppm, 10ppm - 7.5ppm = 2.5ppm, but, is not the percentage of total volume the same? .............. Frank Another rhetorical question, I hope. I talked recently with my lfs about the wide difference between my water and his and he blah blah 90% of the fish he sells are so many generations away from their origins that they can do fine anywhere from 6.5 to 8.5 and all degrees of hardness. Yeah but . . . I'm thinking of bringing home some big jugs of his water to begin acclimating my young to his store a week or so before the fish get moved. He then told me that he and his supplier talked about some of the losses he's been seeing, especially in his rainforest fish and the guy's about got him talked into setting up a few tanks and maintaining them for his south american cats and angels and rams and stuff. I'm nudging him along, do it do it do it. -- Mister Gardener My places have the same water as me so I guess I'm lucky but I won't buy fish until they have totally aclimatised to the water (they usually give them 4 days unless there is a problem) I usually leave it at least 2 weeks. It has nothing to do with the origins in this case but the conditions that they are kept under....losses will be greater where water conditions see big variations (and I'm talking new purchased fish) - even where my local conditions are comparable however carefully I drip the water in I still see losses and this is with comparable water hardness/pH - it might be from other issues I don't know for sure.....If they set up tanks specifically for certain fish they need to label them clearly - one place I went to a few weeks ago clearly labelled that their Discus are kept in RO water with peat extract and so therefore great care needs to be taken when introducing them to local conditions.... Gill |
New Tank Still Struggling??
Altum wrote,
I guess what I'm trying to ask whether you ALWAYS advocate changing only 25% of the water....... I "ALWAYS" advocate changing *20%* - for those that only do small (20% or less) weekly water changes. Are my regular 50% water changes harming.......... Key word here is "regular". TDS in your tap water isn't going to suddenly change from week to week. Highly unlikely DOCs could build up quick enough within a week to change TDS unless you have a large fish/goldfish tank filtered with a canister filter. No, weekly 50% wate changes - your fish should be doing great! It's the people that only do 10 or 20% water changes every week or two and says their tank looks and test great. These are the people that kill their fish due to osmotic pressure shock ;-) ............ Frank |
New Tank Still Struggling??
Frank wrote:
Altum wrote, I guess what I'm trying to ask whether you ALWAYS advocate changing only 25% of the water....... I "ALWAYS" advocate changing *20%* - for those that only do small (20% or less) weekly water changes. Are my regular 50% water changes harming.......... Key word here is "regular". TDS in your tap water isn't going to suddenly change from week to week. Highly unlikely DOCs could build up quick enough within a week to change TDS unless you have a large fish/goldfish tank filtered with a canister filter. No, weekly 50% wate changes - your fish should be doing great! It's the people that only do 10 or 20% water changes every week or two and says their tank looks and test great. These are the people that kill their fish due to osmotic pressure shock ;-) ............ Frank Cool. Thanks. I just wanted to be sure I wasn't causing any inadvertent long-term harm with my big water changes. I've never had a conductivity meter to play with so I don't have any appreciation of how fast TDS changes or doesn't change in tanks. I usually keep my tanks moderately stocked with small fish - no oscars here. :-) -- Put the word aquaria in the subject to reply. Did you read the FAQ? http://faq.thekrib.com |
New Tank Still Struggling??
Gill wrote,
I still see losses and this is with comparable water hardness/pH..... There is a difference in hardness and TDS (total dissolved solids). It may be the DOCs that push the % difference between your tank and the pet shops tanks, and the fish die from a osmotic pressure change of more than 25%. it might be from other issues I don't know for sure....... Pointed that out in my reply to Mr. Gardener... ......... Frank |
New Tank Still Struggling??
On 24 Mar 2006 22:23:18 -0800, "Frank"
wrote: else, from stress shock... If they are acclimated right and go through a quarantine preventive treatment for 3 weeks, losses drop from 20 and 25% down to less than 5% - been their, done that! ........... Frank Yeah - me been there done that too - I managed a Petco back in the 1960s, when Petco was just beginning their plans to launch some freestanding stores. At the time, Petco was just the company that leased space in discount department stores and were known only as "The Pet Department." So much we didn't know about fish and water back then. -- Mister Gardener |
New Tank Still Struggling??
On 24 Mar 2006 21:32:59 -0800, "Frank"
wrote: Altum wrote, I guess what I'm trying to ask whether you ALWAYS advocate changing only 25% of the water....... I "ALWAYS" advocate changing *20%* - for those that only do small (20% or less) weekly water changes. I'm impressed by your precision. I really don't know where the 20% or 30% line exists in any of my tanks. I couldn't easily tell the difference between 20% and 25% - I just eyeball and go for roughly a quarter or a third and call it good. -- Mister Gardener |
New Tank Still Struggling??
Mr. Gardener wrote,
I'm impressed by your precision....... I measure the hight of the tank, divide by 5, and stick one of those digitial thermometers there - precision every time! ;-) .............. Frank |
New Tank Still Struggling??
Bottom posted.
Koi-Lo wrote: "Nikki" wrote in message ... koi as you are getting them used to your water, do you put water from your tank into their bag? No Kikki, what I do is slowly pour them into a clear gallon container that's shaped like a plastic milk jug and discard the bag. I carefully pour most of the water they were in down the drain, leaving their backs covered. I then add about 1/4 to 1/3 cup of water from the Q-tank into the container about every 15 to 20 minutes or so. I also have an air bubbler running for them in the container. But it works without the bubbler just as well. I keep adding more and more water until they're in about 80% Q-tank water - then gently move them to the Q-tank. This can take several hours but it's well worth the effort and time. that's what I do, but I'm sure not long enough, but I have not lost fish from it yet, then again me an the fish store are probably using the same water she is only five min from me, anyway how long do you wait before putting them in your tank? It depends on how long it takes me to get the water in the container to about 80% or so of what's in the Q-tank. I am seldom exact about anything but medications. ;-) It also depends on where I bought them. That one store in Nashville has such soft acid water it can take 4 or more hours to acclimate them, so I seldom buy fish there anymore. The other two stores have water closer to what I have so it takes no more than maybe 2 hours. Sometimes I forget to add more water for 30 minutes so that adds time... to the fishes benefit. But I don't get any "gaspers" anymore who turn up dead in anything from hours to days. just wondering? have you ever spilled the bag with fish in it while trying to do it, I hate those stupid bags, No, since I remove them from the bag and put them in the container as soon as I get home. Also, I don't putz around when I buy fish - I go STRAIGHT HOME with them. As for such accidents.... yes, I just did that recently with some of my own fish I was putting outside in a 780g pool. The water outside is a little different that what's in my tanks so wanted to acclimate them for at least 20 to 30 minutes (there was also a temperature difference) - and dropped the whole bucket into the pool! AAARGGGHHH!!!! They hid in the plants for a few days but where fine. :-))) My Shubunkins are pretty tough customers. I did kill some perarlscales the time I got home late and had no time to acclimate them. We had some place to go and I was really pressed for time. Instead of putting them in a tub to acclimate them with a bubbler until we got back - I just put them in the Q-tank. BIG MISTAKE. Half were dead in less than a week. :*( I got some little guppies for my sons tank he wants something with his ADF, and as I was putting the water in the bag from his tank, over it went, fish were all over my kitchen counter, my six year old did not think it was funny, but my two older ones "teenagers" of course were laughing so hard, I'm trying to get them to help me catch them and they had to leave the room they were laughing so hard, LOL!!! That's teenagers for ya! :-D anyway not the first time I have done that to some innocent fish, they should put something at the bottom of the bags so they sit up right when you take the band off. I remove the band and turn the bag upside-down holding the top shut and let most of the water pour off down the drain (I have a drain "strainer" thing to catch any fish I may drop). Be careful. Then still holding the bag upside-down I put it gently into the acclimation container. Then slowly release the top and the fish sort of gently pour out into the container. I discard the bag and start adding the water from the Q-tank. No more fish dying at the surface gasping........ Koi-lo's description is the best acclimation description I have ever read yet. One thing though - consider doing things a little differently if the acclimation is to take place anywhere with an extreme temperature difference (i.e. an unheated basement for example). The water temperature in the tupperware (small but big enough) container I was using for acclimation for an angelfish was way too cold (63 degrees fahrenheit) by the time I netted the angelfish and put it in a 75 degrees fahrenheit tank. Whether the angelfish died from that or something else is still debatable though, but I have read that temperature shock can be devastating to fish. Good luck and later! |
New Tank Still Struggling??
"Daniel Morrow" wrote in message ... Koi-lo's description is the best acclimation description I have ever read yet. One thing though - consider doing things a little differently if the acclimation is to take place anywhere with an extreme temperature difference (i.e. an unheated basement for example). The water temperature in the tupperware (small but big enough) container I was using for acclimation for an angelfish was way too cold (63 degrees fahrenheit) by the time I netted the angelfish and put it in a 75 degrees fahrenheit tank. That is a big difference. Since my sunroom always has a tropical temperature of 74 or above, I didn't worry about that. That is definitely a consideration in cool rooms or unheated basements. Whether the angelfish died from that or something else is still debatable though, but I have read that temperature shock can be devastating to fish. Good luck and later! I'm glad you brought that up Daniel. It's important people don't allow their fish to chill while being acclimated. :-) -- Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995... Aquariums since 1952 My Pond & Aquarium Pages: http://tinyurl.com/9do58 *Note: There are two Koi-Lo's on the Aquaria Groups.* ~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o |
New Tank Still Struggling??
On Sat, 25 Mar 2006 21:24:24 -0600, "Koi-Lo"
wrote: "Daniel Morrow" wrote in message ... Koi-lo's description is the best acclimation description I have ever read yet. One thing though - consider doing things a little differently if the acclimation is to take place anywhere with an extreme temperature difference (i.e. an unheated basement for example). The water temperature in the tupperware (small but big enough) container I was using for acclimation for an angelfish was way too cold (63 degrees fahrenheit) by the time I netted the angelfish and put it in a 75 degrees fahrenheit tank. That is a big difference. Since my sunroom always has a tropical temperature of 74 or above, I didn't worry about that. That is definitely a consideration in cool rooms or unheated basements. Whether the angelfish died from that or something else is still debatable though, but I have read that temperature shock can be devastating to fish. Good luck and later! I'm glad you brought that up Daniel. It's important people don't allow their fish to chill while being acclimated. :-) I can't imagine keeping fish in a cold basement, mostly because I can't imagine my electric bill for running aquarium heaters in a cold basement. Sitting my acclimating container directly on the strip light or tank top has seemed to keep the temperature up, but I have also, when the living room was significantly cooler, 60 degrees, done the acclimation in the warm kitchen, walking the water from the destination tank one cup at a time to the kitchen acclimation container. And I got some exercise that I otherwise wouldn't have, so I will live longer than if I had not carried all that water one cup at a time back and forth . . .and when I am 112 years old in a nursing home and a reporter asks me what my secret for a long life is I will say "Fish". -- Mister Gardener |
New Tank Still Struggling??
"Mr. Gardener" wrote in message ... On Sat, 25 Mar 2006 21:24:24 -0600, "Koi-Lo" wrote: I'm glad you brought that up Daniel. It's important people don't allow their fish to chill while being acclimated. :-) ======== I can't imagine keeping fish in a cold basement, mostly because I can't imagine my electric bill for running aquarium heaters in a cold basement. I wish I still had a basement. Sitting my acclimating container directly on the strip light or tank top has seemed to keep the temperature up, but I have also, when the living room was significantly cooler, 60 degrees, At 60F my husband would freeze to death. He's a heat lover so our whole house is around 75F - good for tropical fish. On a clear sunny winter day it'll go up to 80F in here, warmer in the sunroom. done the acclimation in the warm kitchen, walking the water from the destination tank one cup at a time to the kitchen acclimation container. And I got some exercise that I otherwise wouldn't have, so I will live longer than if I had not carried all that water one cup at a time back and forth . . .and when I am 112 years old in a nursing home and a reporter asks me what my secret for a long life is I will say "Fish". There ya go! :-))) -- Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995... Aquariums since 1952 My Pond & Aquarium Pages: http://tinyurl.com/9do58 ~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o |
New Tank Still Struggling??
"Koi-Lo" wrote in message ... "Mr. Gardener" wrote in message ... On Sat, 25 Mar 2006 21:24:24 -0600, "Koi-Lo" wrote: I'm glad you brought that up Daniel. It's important people don't allow their fish to chill while being acclimated. :-) ======== I can't imagine keeping fish in a cold basement, mostly because I can't imagine my electric bill for running aquarium heaters in a cold basement. I wish I still had a basement. Sitting my acclimating container directly on the strip light or tank top has seemed to keep the temperature up, but I have also, when the living room was significantly cooler, 60 degrees, At 60F my husband would freeze to death. He's a heat lover so our whole house is around 75F - good for tropical fish. On a clear sunny winter day it'll go up to 80F in here, warmer in the sunroom. done the acclimation in the warm kitchen, walking the water from the destination tank one cup at a time to the kitchen acclimation container. And I got some exercise that I otherwise wouldn't have, so I will live longer than if I had not carried all that water one cup at a time back and forth . . .and when I am 112 years old in a nursing home and a reporter asks me what my secret for a long life is I will say "Fish". There ya go! :-))) -- Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995... Aquariums since 1952 My Pond & Aquarium Pages: http://tinyurl.com/9do58 ~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o You know thats funny, I keep my heat on 80 easy, sometimes higher.... but if i dont have a heater in my betta tank which is not a lot of water like the bigger tanks it drops down to 72-75 quickly. I have one tank in my living room close to a heater (forced air) and now that tank will stay steady 78, but i dont like depending on that to much. Nik |
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