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Rose anenome splitting
I purchased a rose anemone about 8 months ago. About a month ago I
noticed that it was noticeably bigger. It had split in two. I was thrilled with my success. On the weekend it did it again. I now have three rose anemones in my tank. Has anyone had a similar experience? My LFS is licking it chops hoping I can bring some in to trade. I haven't quite figured how I am going to get them off my rock to take in to the store. I have not had a lot of luck trying to keep SPS in my tank but softies and leathers grow like weeds. Go figure Todd |
Rose anenome splitting
I hate to pop your bubble but splitting in anemones is almost noda in the ocean and is a
stress related issue. -- Boomer If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up Former US Army Bomb Technician (EOD) Member; IABTI, NATEODA, WEODF, ISEE & IPS Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php Want to See More ! The Coral Realm http://www.coralrealm.com "TW" wrote in message .. . :I purchased a rose anemone about 8 months ago. About a month ago I : noticed that it was noticeably bigger. It had split in two. I was : thrilled with my success. On the weekend it did it again. I now have : three rose anemones in my tank. Has anyone had a similar experience? My : LFS is licking it chops hoping I can bring some in to trade. I : haven't quite figured how I am going to get them off my rock to take in : to the store. I have not had a lot of luck trying to keep SPS in my : tank but softies and leathers grow like weeds. Go figure : : Todd |
Rose anenome splitting
Boomer wrote:
splitting in anemones is almost noda in the ocean ? Sorry I don't follow your point. Todd |
Rose anenome splitting
Splitting is not always stress related but is most often it is. Feeding
habits can cause the split as well. Water changes and major changes in chemistry can cause them to split. I do know some one who does this on purpose to help financialy support the reef. BTW if you start with an outer edge and a thumb nail you can get them off, kinda like pealing and orange, only more delicate. The best method however is to force them onto a rock you intened to sell. A direct pump flow on the piece you want to move will make it move, not always in the direction you want though. |
Rose anenome splitting
I find it real hard to believe that anemones almost never
split in the ocean. Wayne Sallee Wayne's Pets Boomer wrote on 4/1/2006 1:55 AM: I hate to pop your bubble but splitting in anemones is almost noda in the ocean and is a stress related issue. |
Rose anenome splitting
Ask Daphne Fautin, the world leading anemone expert or check the reproduction biology of
anemones. If it is so common in tanks why has it never been seen in the ocean. Another myth, anemone fish do not feed anemones. 20 years ago I had a 30 gal hi-tank, a single NO lamp and a "ritteri" anemone, that ended up loosing all is zoo's and it split. -- Boomer If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up Former US Army Bomb Technician (EOD) Member; IABTI, NATEODA, WEODF, ISEE & IPS Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php Want to See More ! The Coral Realm http://www.coralrealm.com "Wayne Sallee" wrote in message ... :I find it real hard to believe that anemones almost never : split in the ocean. : : Wayne Sallee : Wayne's Pets : : : : Boomer wrote on 4/1/2006 1:55 AM: : I hate to pop your bubble but splitting in anemones is almost noda in the ocean and is a : stress related issue. : |
Rose anenome splitting
"Feeding
habits can cause the split as well. Water changes and major changes in chemistry can cause them to split" All stress related ;-) -- Boomer If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up Former US Army Bomb Technician (EOD) Member; IABTI, NATEODA, WEODF, ISEE & IPS Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php Want to See More ! The Coral Realm http://www.coralrealm.com "Sandbag" wrote in message oups.com... : Splitting is not always stress related but is most often it is. Feeding : habits can cause the split as well. Water changes and major changes in : chemistry can cause them to split. I do know some one who does this on : purpose to help financialy support the reef. : : BTW if you start with an outer edge and a thumb nail you can get them : off, kinda like pealing and orange, only more delicate. The best method : however is to force them onto a rock you intened to sell. A direct pump : flow on the piece you want to move will make it move, not always in the : direction you want though. : |
Rose anenome splitting
As corals grow, they split, so do mushrooms. Yes stress
can cause reproductive behavior in a lot of creatures, but just because stress can cause reproductive behavior in creatures does not mean that if a creature is reproducing, it's because it is stressed. So what has been done to prove that anemones don't split unless it is stressed? Anemones don't keep growing larger and larger without some limit. You could argue that it gets so big that it's stressful for it to get enough food, so then it splits. You could argue that an anemone that grows to big for it's spot, split's because it's too stressfull for it to fit into the tight spot. But this kind of splitting should be considered normal, not a negative thing. And what about colonial anemones??? I just don't buy into this mindset. I'd like to see some data. Wayne Sallee Wayne's Pets Boomer wrote on 4/1/2006 1:51 PM: "Feeding habits can cause the split as well. Water changes and major changes in chemistry can cause them to split" All stress related ;-) |
Rose anenome splitting
My tank is more than 8 or 9 years old. It is pretty rock solid as far as
stability goes. I have a good skimmer and a good reactor going I barely touch it other than feeding. I don't think "stress" is a viable answer. To me it seems more likely to be happy normal reproduction. The anenome is always fully inflated and visually it looks pretty happy where it is. The tenticles are sometimes straight and sometimes extra inflated with a ball shape at the ends. The reason for my post was I was so surprised that it split twice in such a short span of time. I have had it in my tank for close to a year so far and all of a sudden wham! Todd |
Rose anenome splitting
Corals , and mushrooms are not anemones. Colonial anemones are a another issue. You can
try to argue any rime or reason you want an aquarium is a stressful environment for most of the large anemones particular the carpets, of which a Rose is. It is my fault to have not be more clear and I should have not said anemones but carpet anemones, which are almost all sexual. As Sanberg pointed out water chemistry and feeding, to include light cycling, light type, high nutrient levels, all much different than on a coral reef. These are always changing in a reef tank, which is a stress but where BTA's seem to better than most. Who said they keep growing large and larger with no limit. Most animals all have a limit, that by no means requires a need for a carpet to split. Some carpets have been monitored for almost 100 years. People seem to think that if it splits that means it is happy. The only ones that has a mind set are those that seem to have to believe it must be happy. Just like those with the mind set that anemone fish feed anemones. To often people like to input anthropomorphic thoughts into animal behavior. Can BTA's go through longitudinal fission in the wild, yes, but is very rare in nature as opposed to captive care, where it is the main stay. Longitudinal fission is almost exclusive to captive systems in carpets. BTA's do not need much food and most of its daily requirements are similar to corals due to zoo's. As I said cloning { LF) is absent or very rare in host sea anemones par the BTA in captivity, where it seems to point to stress. Some info form the Breeder's Registry "4. Species Specific Information Entacmaea quadricolor. This species really did emerge as the star performer. Not only was it much more likely to live a long life in an aquarium than any other species, but it was also reported as reproducing readily. E. quadricolor appears adaptable to a range of conditions, doing well under very high lighting, but able to live under tube only lighting also in some set-ups. It can also live with low, medium or high current, but would appear to favour medium or high. Reproduction was often in response to a stress event, often reported in newly purchased specimens recovering from the rigours of being shipped. It may be that the anemone having survived what to it was a cataclysmic event, reproduces, to ensure survival of the species. A drawback with this species is that it was often reported as a wanderer, prone to doing damage to both its surroundings and itself as it moves around the aquarium. However, it was also reported as staying in the same place for several years once it found a really good spot. One example of this was a respondent who said his E. quadricolor liked a spot where it was attached to the underside of an overhanging rock, but reaching out into the tank in a position of high light and strong current. Knowing his anemone's preference for this type of location, when it had to be moved to a new tank, the owner deliberately created a similar type location in the new tank, and the anemone moved around the tank until it found it, and then stayed put. This anemone was referred to by a number of owners as hardy, and it appears that it is, given a liveable environment. Although it is hardy by anemone standards, it must be remembered that it still requires a good high quality environment. If you combine all the above with the fact that this is an attractive anemone that has also been reported as hosting a wide range of clownfish species, it really should be the anemone of choice for most aquarists. Looked after properly it will reward its owner by maintaining good health and possibly producing clones, and will also assist conservation by reducing the removal of other species from reefs, which will likely die after a year or two in an aquarium." In this hobby one can make an arguement on about anything or demand data, that does not make them correct. Ome could argue it is splitting because it has no or the wrong host fish. -- Boomer If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up Former US Army Bomb Technician (EOD) Member; IABTI, NATEODA, WEODF, ISEE & IPS Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php Want to See More ! The Coral Realm http://www.coralrealm.com "Wayne Sallee" wrote in message ... : As corals grow, they split, so do mushrooms. Yes stress : can cause reproductive behavior in a lot of creatures, but : just because stress can cause reproductive behavior in : creatures does not mean that if a creature is reproducing, : it's because it is stressed. : : So what has been done to prove that anemones don't split : unless it is stressed? : : Anemones don't keep growing larger and larger without some : limit. You could argue that it gets so big that it's : stressful for it to get enough food, so then it splits. : You could argue that an anemone that grows to big for it's : spot, split's because it's too stressfull for it to fit : into the tight spot. But this kind of splitting should be : considered normal, not a negative thing. And what about : colonial anemones??? : : I just don't buy into this mindset. I'd like to see some data. : : : Wayne Sallee : Wayne's Pets : : : : Boomer wrote on 4/1/2006 1:51 PM: : "Feeding : habits can cause the split as well. Water changes and major changes in : chemistry can cause them to split" : : All stress related ;-) : |
Rose anenome splitting
A year for a carpet is a very short time. Some can last a year in terrible conditions,
such as my ritteri. Usually I judge the success of a carpet after it has been in a system for 3 years -- Boomer If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up Former US Army Bomb Technician (EOD) Member; IABTI, NATEODA, WEODF, ISEE & IPS Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php Want to See More ! The Coral Realm http://www.coralrealm.com "TW" wrote in message .. . : My tank is more than 8 or 9 years old. It is pretty rock solid as far as : stability goes. I have a good skimmer and a good reactor going I : barely touch it other than feeding. I don't think "stress" is a viable : answer. To me it seems more likely to be happy normal reproduction. : The anenome is always fully inflated and visually it looks pretty happy : where it is. The tenticles are sometimes straight and sometimes extra : inflated with a ball shape at the ends. : The reason for my post was I was so surprised that it split twice in : such a short span of time. I have had it in my tank for close to a year : so far and all of a sudden wham! : : Todd : |
Rose anenome splitting
Boomer wrote:
A year for a carpet is a very short time. Some can last a year in terrible conditions, such as my ritteri. Usually I judge the success of a carpet after it has been in a system for 3 years Granted a year is a short time in a system. I have a pink tip and a purple carpet that I have had since I first set up my system. 8-9 years ago. The carpet has been host to a pair of perculas for the past 4 years. I often wonder how long they will last. They seem to just keep on ticking year after year. Many corals have come and gone over the years but those two are original and seem happy. I feed them directly about once once a month or so otherwise they just feed out of the water column. Todd |
Rose anenome splitting
Boomer wrote: Another myth, anemone fish do not feed anemones. My maroon clownfish constantly brings food to my rose anemones. Maybe he's not intentionally feeding them, but that's the overall effect. ;-) |
Rose anenome splitting
"Boomer" wrote in message ...
Corals , and mushrooms are not anemones. Colonial anemones are a another issue. You can try to argue any rime or reason you want an aquarium is a stressful environment for most of the large anemones particular the carpets, of which a Rose is. It is my fault to have not be more clear and I should have not said anemones but carpet anemones, which are almost all sexual. As Sanberg pointed out water chemistry and feeding, to include light cycling, light type, high nutrient levels, all much different than on a coral reef. These are always changing in a reef tank, which is a stress but where BTA's seem to better than most. I was sure we are talking about the rose variation of a BTA. Just like those with the mind set that anemone fish feed anemones. To often people like to input anthropomorphic thoughts into animal behavior. What clownfish are doing when they bring food to the anemone ? It is not feeding, how do you interprete this behaviour then ? I saw it many, many times in my reef tank with pair of maroon clowns and a large BTA. |
Rose anenome splitting
"Captain Feedback" wrote in message oups.com...
Another myth, anemone fish do not feed anemones. My maroon clownfish constantly brings food to my rose anemones. Maybe he's not intentionally feeding them, but that's the overall effect. ;-) Same he maroon pair and a large BTA. |
Rose anenome splitting
"Boomer" wrote on Sun, 2 Apr 2006 :
an aquarium is a stressful environment for most of the large anemones particular the carpets, of which a Rose is. It is my fault to have not be more clear and I should have not said anemones but carpet anemones, which are almost all sexual. The rose anemone most people mean is a red color morph of a bubble-tip anemone, aka Entacmaea quadricolor. That is not a carpet anemone, i.e. one of the ones that is a large flat dinner plate in shape with short stubbly tentacles, and usually buries its foot in sand (instead of adhering to rock). For example, Stichodactyla sp., e.g. S. gigantea or S. haddoni. Some info form the Breeder's Registry "4. Species Specific Information Entacmaea quadricolor. Yeah, that's a rose anemone ... but not a carpet. -- Don __________________________________________________ _____________________________ Don Geddis http://reef.geddis.org/ Blame: The secret to success is knowing who to blame for your failures. -- Despair.com |
Rose anenome splitting
I guess my understanding of these organisims is a bit naive. I assume
that when it is fully inflated and stationary that it is happy. This may not be the case as you have explained. However, if that is the case I think we can say the same thing for every SW aquarium animal. I'm sure the would all be happier in the ocean but that would not make this hobby viable would it? Thanks for the info. I appreciate it and your help from the past. I believe it was your website that gave me alot of info when I first got into this hobby. Cheers Todd |
Rose anenome splitting
"TW" wrote in message ...
I guess my understanding of these organisims is a bit naive. I assume that when it is fully inflated and stationary that it is happy. This may not be the case as you have explained. However, if that is the case I think we can say the same thing for every SW aquarium animal. I'm sure the would all be happier in the ocean but that would not make this hobby viable would it? Thanks for the info. I appreciate it and your help from the past. I believe it was your website that gave me alot of info when I first got into this hobby. Could you sort things up with the type of your anemone, please? Were you talking about a carpet type anemone, like Boomer interpreted, or were you talking about rose variation of BTA ? |
Rose anenome splitting
Pszemol wrote:
"TW" wrote in message ... I guess my understanding of these organisims is a bit naive. I assume that when it is fully inflated and stationary that it is happy. This may not be the case as you have explained. However, if that is the case I think we can say the same thing for every SW aquarium animal. I'm sure the would all be happier in the ocean but that would not make this hobby viable would it? Thanks for the info. I appreciate it and your help from the past. I believe it was your website that gave me alot of info when I first got into this hobby. Could you sort things up with the type of your anemone, please? Were you talking about a carpet type anemone, like Boomer interpreted, or were you talking about rose variation of BTA ? I was told it was a rose anenome. It is salmon pink on the tenticles, The tips are purplish , the mouth is lime green. On some days the tenticles expand to have bulbus ends like a ball. like this: http://www.berlinmethod.com/images/photos/anenome.jpg or this: http://www.oc-creative.com/7gal/475rose1.jpg Both images show what I have. Todd |
Rose anenome splitting
Sorry but Roses are carpets, there are long tentacle carpets and short tentacle carpets.
The longs include, Entacmeae and Heteractis for example I'm quite familiar that a rose is color variant of a Entacmaea quadricolor -- Boomer If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up Former US Army Bomb Technician (EOD) Member; IABTI, NATEODA, WEODF, ISEE & IPS Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php Want to See More ! The Coral Realm http://www.coralrealm.com "Don Geddis" wrote in message ... : "Boomer" wrote on Sun, 2 Apr 2006 : : an aquarium is a stressful environment for most of the large anemones : particular the carpets, of which a Rose is. It is my fault to have not be : more clear and I should have not said anemones but carpet anemones, which : are almost all sexual. : : The rose anemone most people mean is a red color morph of a bubble-tip anemone, : aka Entacmaea quadricolor. That is not a carpet anemone, i.e. one of the ones : that is a large flat dinner plate in shape with short stubbly tentacles, and : usually buries its foot in sand (instead of adhering to rock). For example, : Stichodactyla sp., e.g. S. gigantea or S. haddoni. : : Some info form the Breeder's Registry : "4. Species Specific Information : Entacmaea quadricolor. : : Yeah, that's a rose anemone ... but not a carpet. : : -- Don : __________________________________________________ _____________________________ : Don Geddis http://reef.geddis.org/ : Blame: The secret to success is knowing who to blame for your failures. : -- Despair.com |
Rose anenome splitting
Cap
I will not argue with that, as that is often the end product. See post to PZ and TW -- Boomer If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up Former US Army Bomb Technician (EOD) Member; IABTI, NATEODA, WEODF, ISEE & IPS Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php Want to See More ! The Coral Realm http://www.coralrealm.com "Captain Feedback" wrote in message oups.com... : : Boomer wrote: : Another : myth, anemone fish do not feed anemones. : : My maroon clownfish constantly brings food to my rose anemones. Maybe : he's not intentionally feeding them, but that's the overall effect. ;-) : |
Rose anenome splitting
Pz and TW
"What clownfish are doing when they bring food to the anemone ? It is not feeding, how do you interprete this behaviour then ? I saw it many, many times in my reef tank with pair of maroon clowns and a large BTA" Do not take this wrong but when dealing with animal behavior you need to look outside the box and try to keep out human behavior and or anthropomorphic thought. Ask yourself the question what else COULD it be doing 1. Taking food to its "lair" for safe keeping , to eat later, only to be often eaten by the anemone 2. To remove the food from the nearby water column to avoid the potential of predators. 3. To remove the food so other fish do not get it. Survival of it species, by to reducing the survival of another competing species. This is quite common in fish. Most of you may not have keep clown and anemones for years, by different means, i.e., a host anemone and no host anemone at all.. Many clowns in tanks will seek out some kind of "host", which may not be an anemone at all. Some of the "Hosts" that have appeared in this hobby for clowns a. 1. Anemones 2. Algae 3. Plastic plants ( some guys use green grassy looking plastic plants to get clowns to spawn in them, no anemone) 4. Certain types of rocks/formations 5. Dead bleached coral 6. Behind lift tubes 7. Dead bleach giant barnacles 8.. And the real ass kicker, LIVE, large feather duster worms. Especially in a least 3 cases, that I know of, in the last few years. With that clown being a Maroon. And there are pic's to prove it, to include in a well know magazine FAMA. How the hell it gets the duster to stay open is beyond me but must may be similar in the way it works with anemones. That means being chemical, where the anemone or duster sees the clown as part of itself chemically. In all cases the clown often gives the same behavior," feeding its "host". In short, many clowns would appear stupid then........trying to feed a lift tube or a rock :-) It is not a mutualistic relationship between clowns and anemones, it is a commensal relationship where only one benefits, that being the clown. The anemone may benefit by accident or chance but that is not mutualisium. Anemones actually do better without clowns than with clowns for a couple of reasons. -- Boomer If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up Former US Army Bomb Technician (EOD) Member; IABTI, NATEODA, WEODF, ISEE & IPS Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php Want to See More ! The Coral Realm http://www.coralrealm.com "Pszemol" wrote in message ... : "Boomer" wrote in message ... : Corals , and mushrooms are not anemones. Colonial anemones are a another issue. You can : try to argue any rime or reason you want an aquarium is a stressful environment for most : of the large anemones particular the carpets, of which a Rose is. It is my fault to have : not be more clear and I should have not said anemones but carpet anemones, which are : almost all sexual. As Sanberg pointed out water chemistry and feeding, to include light : cycling, light type, high nutrient levels, all much different than on a coral reef. These : are always changing in a reef tank, which is a stress but where BTA's seem to better than : most. : : I was sure we are talking about the rose variation of a BTA. : : Just like those with the mind set that anemone fish feed anemones. : To often people like to input anthropomorphic thoughts into animal behavior. : : What clownfish are doing when they bring food to the anemone ? : It is not feeding, how do you interprete this behaviour then ? : I saw it many, many times in my reef tank with pair of maroon clowns and a large BTA. |
Rose anenome splitting
"Boomer" wrote in message ...
Do not take this wrong but when dealing with animal behavior you need to look outside the box and try to keep out human behavior and or anthropomorphic thought. Ask yourself the question what else COULD it be doing 1. Taking food to its "lair" for safe keeping , to eat later, only to be often eaten by the anemone 2. To remove the food from the nearby water column to avoid the potential of predators. 3. To remove the food so other fish do not get it. Survival of it species, by to reducing the survival of another competing species. This is quite common in fish. The effect of their actions in all 3 case studies will be "feeding their host". consciously or subconsciously, they do. So I am not understanding what are you talking about. Result is clear and simple: anemone is fed by its resident clowns. In all cases the clown often gives the same behavior," feeding its "host". In short, many clowns would appear stupid then........trying to feed a lift tube or a rock :-) It does not matter for me, what clown "thinks" bringing the food to the anemone. Or if it "thinks" at all... The fact is that it is feeding my anemone and by feeding I understand a simple act of puting food for the anemone to eat... Yes, fish is not very inteligent, fish did not study biology to recognize what an anemone is, so in the aquarium it might asume something else for its home and continue feeding it, like it would do in nature... Clownfish will not be normally found anywhere else than in the anemone host. So comparing his behaviour in not-natural environment is quite incorrect. Also, what I have read, the feeding behaviour was NOT observed in nature, only in aquaria. It is not a mutualistic relationship between clowns and anemones, it is a commensal relationship where only one benefits, that being the clown. The anemone may benefit by accident or chance but that is not mutualisium. Anemones actually do better without clowns than with clowns for a couple of reasons. What are these reasons ? I was told clownfish can defend anemone from some predatory fish... |
Rose anenome splitting
"Boomer" wrote on Mon, 3 Apr 2006 :
Anemones actually do better without clowns than with clowns for a couple of reasons. Are you talking about in the wild, or in aquaria? I'm aware, in aquaria, that sometimes people put one (or more) large clowns together with a new small anemone, and the anemone occasionally gets stressed from all the rubbing. If the anemone isn't sufficiently larger than the clown family, then you're probably right and the anemone would do better without any clowns. But in the wild? I believe the studies have shown that if you remove all clownfish from an area of the ocean, then in a short time all the (hosting) anemones will also disappear, preyed on by various predators. It's my understanding that it's pretty well established that the clownfish provide at least some degree of defense for their anemones. Do you disagree with this? -- Don __________________________________________________ _____________________________ Don Geddis http://reef.geddis.org/ Whenever I see a rainbow, at first it makes me happy. But then I wonder if, on other planets, they have better ones. -- Deep Thoughts, by Jack Handey [1999] |
Rose anenome splitting
"Boomer" wrote on Sun, 2 Apr 2006 :
Sorry but Roses are carpets, there are long tentacle carpets and short tentacle carpets. The longs include, Entacmeae and Heteractis for example Well, I guess a word like "carpet anemone" isn't scientifically defined, so I suppose you can use it to mean whatever you want. But I don't think this is the definition that most other people use. Instead, it seems quite common to refer to "carpet anemone" as a strict subset of "sea anemone", namely the ones that are large and flat and short-tentacled and bury in the sand. I'm quite familiar that a rose is color variant of a Entacmaea quadricolor OK, well then in your definitions, what kind of sea anemone is NOT a carpet? Of the 10-20 species of sea anemones that clownfish host in out in the wild, do you think they are ALL "carpet anemones"? What anemone is not a carpet? (I suppose you could be thinking of non-sea anemones, such as "mushroom anemones". But do you believe that all wild clownfish-hosting anemones are carpets? I've never heard anyone else use the word that way.) -- Don __________________________________________________ _____________________________ Don Geddis http://reef.geddis.org/ To me, death is like a doorway. And getting knocked out is like one of those pet doors. And sleep is like a little mouse hole. -- Deep Thoughts, by Jack Handey [1999] |
Rose anenome splitting
Would the 3 examples you gave not be associating human
behavior and or anthropomorphic though to what they are doing? :-) Wayne Sallee Wayne's Pets Boomer wrote on 4/3/2006 1:49 AM: Do not take this wrong but when dealing with animal behavior you need to look outside the box and try to keep out human behavior and or anthropomorphic thought. Ask yourself the question what else COULD it be doing 1. Taking food to its "lair" for safe keeping , to eat later, only to be often eaten by the anemone 2. To remove the food from the nearby water column to avoid the potential of predators. 3. To remove the food so other fish do not get it. Survival of it species, by to reducing the survival of another competing species. This is quite common in fish. |
Rose anenome splitting
NO !!
-- Boomer If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up Former US Army Bomb Technician (EOD) Member; IABTI, NATEODA, WEODF, ISEE & IPS Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php Want to See More ! The Coral Realm http://www.coralrealm.com "Wayne Sallee" wrote in message ... : Would the 3 examples you gave not be associating human : behavior and or anthropomorphic though to what they are : doing? :-) : : Wayne Sallee : Wayne's Pets : : : : Boomer wrote on 4/3/2006 1:49 AM: : Do not take this wrong but when dealing with animal behavior you need to look outside the : box and try to keep out human behavior and or anthropomorphic thought. Ask yourself the : question what else COULD it be doing : : 1. Taking food to its "lair" for safe keeping , to eat later, only to be often eaten by : the anemone : 2. To remove the food from the nearby water column to avoid the potential of predators. : 3. To remove the food so other fish do not get it. Survival of it species, by to reducing : the survival of another competing species. This is quite common in fish. : |
Rose anenome splitting
"Instead, it seems quite common to refer to "carpet anemone" as a strict subset
of "sea anemone", namely the ones that are large and flat and short-tentacled and bury in the sand" Not necessarily. Would you consider a Crytodendrum adhaesivum a carpet ? Would use consider a Heteractis magnifica a carpet ? Many consider the true carpet family to be only Stichodactyalidae, this includes Stichodactyla ( short tentacle often sand bound ) and Heteractis ( long tentacle, often rock bound) carpets. If one wants to get picky maybe it should be only the real carpet, Stichodactyla giagantea :-) -- Boomer If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up Former US Army Bomb Technician (EOD) Member; IABTI, NATEODA, WEODF, ISEE & IPS Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php Want to See More ! The Coral Realm http://www.coralrealm.com "Don Geddis" wrote in message ... : "Boomer" wrote on Sun, 2 Apr 2006 : : Sorry but Roses are carpets, there are long tentacle carpets and short : tentacle carpets. The longs include, Entacmeae and Heteractis for example : : Well, I guess a word like "carpet anemone" isn't scientifically defined, so : I suppose you can use it to mean whatever you want. But I don't think this is : the definition that most other people use. : : Instead, it seems quite common to refer to "carpet anemone" as a strict subset : of "sea anemone", namely the ones that are large and flat and short-tentacled : and bury in the sand. : : I'm quite familiar that a rose is color variant of a Entacmaea quadricolor : : OK, well then in your definitions, what kind of sea anemone is NOT a carpet? : Of the 10-20 species of sea anemones that clownfish host in out in the wild, : do you think they are ALL "carpet anemones"? What anemone is not a carpet? : : (I suppose you could be thinking of non-sea anemones, such as "mushroom : anemones". But do you believe that all wild clownfish-hosting anemones are : carpets? I've never heard anyone else use the word that way.) : : -- Don : __________________________________________________ _____________________________ : Don Geddis http://reef.geddis.org/ : To me, death is like a doorway. And getting knocked out is like one of those : pet doors. And sleep is like a little mouse hole. : -- Deep Thoughts, by Jack Handey [1999] |
Rose anenome splitting
Don no, you are 100 % correct. See other post, I should have stated tank anemones
-- Boomer If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up Former US Army Bomb Technician (EOD) Member; IABTI, NATEODA, WEODF, ISEE & IPS Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php Want to See More ! The Coral Realm http://www.coralrealm.com "Don Geddis" wrote in message ... : "Boomer" wrote on Mon, 3 Apr 2006 : : Anemones actually do better without clowns than with clowns for a couple of : reasons. : : Are you talking about in the wild, or in aquaria? : : I'm aware, in aquaria, that sometimes people put one (or more) large clowns : together with a new small anemone, and the anemone occasionally gets stressed : from all the rubbing. If the anemone isn't sufficiently larger than the clown : family, then you're probably right and the anemone would do better without any : clowns. : : But in the wild? I believe the studies have shown that if you remove all : clownfish from an area of the ocean, then in a short time all the (hosting) : anemones will also disappear, preyed on by various predators. : : It's my understanding that it's pretty well established that the clownfish : provide at least some degree of defense for their anemones. Do you disagree : with this? : : -- Don : __________________________________________________ _____________________________ : Don Geddis http://reef.geddis.org/ : Whenever I see a rainbow, at first it makes me happy. But then I wonder if, on : other planets, they have better ones. -- Deep Thoughts, by Jack Handey [1999] |
Rose anenome splitting
You have lost it and are contradicting yourself
"The effect of their actions in all 3 case studies will be "feeding their host". consciously or subconsciously, they do" "The fact is that it is feeding my anemone and by feeding I understand a simple act of puting food for the anemone to eat" That is an act of intention, a deliberate act, it is feeding the anemone, in your way if thinkin', like a Robin is feeding its young a worm. Please look up the words feeding and fed. "So I am not understanding what are you talking about." That is obvious and that you do not know what you are talking about. "Yes, fish is not very inteligent,........, so in the aquarium it might asume something else for its home and continue feeding it, like it would do in nature" Oh come on no that is nonsense "Also, what I have read, the feeding behaviour was NOT observed in nature, only in aquaria" That shows you do not know what you are talking about, buy want to argue on it. I also once believed that and the same for feeding its anemone. Observation in aquariums and in the wild have shown this to be false. "What are these reasons ? I was told clownfish can defend anemone from some predatory fish..." Yes they can . Evidence and studies show that it points neither way in the wild but is strongly believed they may do better in the wild, as they are often picked on by butterflies. Most of these studies are based on the size of the anemones which is a critical issue, i.e., large one faring well and small ones doing very poorly to actually disappearing in a short time..The reef tank is another issue, where the often fair worse with a clown Clowns will also, at times, remove food from the anemone that it has captured and is trying eat. What are you going to claim now, that the clown is feeding the water column. Clowns also steal food captured by the anemone and eat it. Are you now going to claim the anemone captured the food to feed the clown. Clowns have also been filmed in the wild luring fish into the anemone. Do think that is an intentional act of trying to feed the anemone ? Wake up PZ. A clown is just bring back a piece of food back to its safe home where it can eat it. It tests with a hosted anemone, the fish will bring back the food to the anemone, often where it does not get a chance to eat it. In the same test, where the anemone was then removed, the clown, after searching the tank for its anemone and could not find it, brought the food back to its prior home, a lift tube, where it ate the food. At time you will actually see the clown trying to eat the food it has been brought back. Did you know and that it has been repeatedly shown, that clowns at times will pick up ANY large object in the near by water column they can carrier and bring it back to their home, be it an anemone or rock. Clowns will also bring back food to it anemone even though the anemone shut down and can not eat .The food /object just then floats to the surface, often with the clown just bringing it back, only to float to he surface again. It is a simple case, the clown is bringing back the food to its home, where it is safe to eat, often with the anemone eating the food. That is NOT the clown feeding the anemone. Does the anemone get a meal, yes, did the clown feed it ........NO. If your cat brings in a dead mouse and drops it near your dog is the cat feeding the dog. You need to do some research and reading, there are to many myths in this hobby. If you can find it here is a great start Behavior of Symbiotic Fishes and Sea Anemones Richard N. Mariscal Department of Biological Science Florida Sate University One people make remarks about the clown feeding their anemone and 99 % of the time they think of it as " my anemone needs to eat so I'll go get him some food and feed him" , like a Robin feeds it young . That is not what is taking place and has been my whole point. The anemone is getting food from the clown but the clown is not being fed by the clown and the clown is NOT feeding the anemone and that is a difference. Many animals bring back food to a safe place to eat and that is all that is going on here, nothing else. -- Boomer If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up Former US Army Bomb Technician (EOD) Member; IABTI, NATEODA, WEODF, ISEE & IPS Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php Want to See More ! The Coral Realm http://www.coralrealm.com "Pszemol" wrote in message ... : "Boomer" wrote in message ... : Do not take this wrong but when dealing with animal behavior you need to look outside the : box and try to keep out human behavior and or anthropomorphic thought. Ask yourself the : question what else COULD it be doing : : 1. Taking food to its "lair" for safe keeping , to eat later, only to be often eaten by : the anemone : 2. To remove the food from the nearby water column to avoid the potential of predators. : 3. To remove the food so other fish do not get it. Survival of it species, by to reducing : the survival of another competing species. This is quite common in fish. : : The effect of their actions in all 3 case studies will be "feeding their host". : consciously or subconsciously, they do. So I am not understanding what are you talking about. : Result is clear and simple: anemone is fed by its resident clowns. : : In all cases the clown often gives the same behavior," feeding its "host". In short, : many clowns would appear stupid then........trying to feed a lift tube or a rock :-) : : It does not matter for me, what clown "thinks" bringing the food to the anemone. : Or if it "thinks" at all... The fact is that it is feeding my anemone and by : feeding I understand a simple act of puting food for the anemone to eat... : Yes, fish is not very inteligent, fish did not study biology to recognize : what an anemone is, so in the aquarium it might asume something else for its : home and continue feeding it, like it would do in nature... Clownfish will not : be normally found anywhere else than in the anemone host. So comparing his : behaviour in not-natural environment is quite incorrect. : : Also, what I have read, the feeding behaviour was NOT observed in nature, : only in aquaria. : : It is not a mutualistic relationship between clowns and anemones, it is a commensal : relationship where only one benefits, that being the clown. The anemone may benefit by : accident or chance but that is not mutualisium. Anemones actually do better without : clowns than with clowns for a couple of reasons. : : What are these reasons ? : I was told clownfish can defend anemone from some predatory fish... |
Rose anenome splitting
"Boomer" wrote in message ...
You have lost it and are contradicting yourself LOL. Maybe we just do not understand terms same way, like with the "carpet anemone"? "The effect of their actions in all 3 case studies will be "feeding their host". consciously or subconsciously, they do" "The fact is that it is feeding my anemone and by feeding I understand a simple act of puting food for the anemone to eat" That is an act of intention, a deliberate act, it is feeding the anemone, in your way if thinkin', like a Robin is feeding its young a worm. To be honest, I am not sure if robin "knows" it is feeding its young any more than a clownfish feeding its host anemone... Please look up the words feeding and fed. Sure, no problem: http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=feeding feedv. fed, (fd) feed.ing, feeds To give food to; supply with nourishment: feed the children. To provide as food or nourishment: fed fish to the cat. To serve as food for: The turkey is large enough to feed a dozen. To produce food for: The valley feeds an entire county. To provide for consumption, utilization, or operation: feed logs to a fire; feed data into a computer. To supply with something essential for growth, maintenance, or operation: Melting snow feeds the reservoirs. To distribute (a local radio or television broadcast) to a larger audience or group of receivers by way of a network or satellite. I do not see in this dictionary any special emphasise on the intentions. I hope you do not believe the melting snow *intentionally* feeds the reservoirs? "So I am not understanding what are you talking about." That is obvious and that you do not know what you are talking about. LOL. I know what I am talking about. I have a pair of maroon clowns in a large BTA and have observed them a lot for last couple of years. I know what they are doing, when they are satisfied with what they have done and when not and they want to fix what did not worked well. "Yes, fish is not very inteligent,........, so in the aquarium it might asume something else for its home and continue feeding it, like it would do in nature" Oh come on no that is nonsense Why ? Do you think fish can recognise anemone from a leather coral ? I do not know about your fish, but mine did not study zoology :-))) That shows you do not know what you are talking about, buy want to argue on it. I also once believed that and the same for feeding its anemone. Observation in aquariums and in the wild have shown this to be false. I know what I have seen. I am not looking for "intentions", I am looking at effective result of fish actions... Clowns will also, at times, remove food from the anemone that it has captured and is trying eat. What are you going to claim now, that the clown is feeding the water column. I have seen it many times. Do you know when they do it ? When anemone is too slow to engulf, usually too large morsel. My interpretation is that clowns feel that something is not right with this food and it should be removed... Also, they "defend" their home from floating item like macroalgae branch pushing it away from the anemone... Clowns also steal food captured by the anemone and eat it. Are you now going to claim the anemone captured the food to feed the clown. No, my clownfish always eat first :-) They feed anemone only larger pieces they are not able to eat themselves :-) Also, when anemone is not grasping food they REPEAT atempt showing they are not satisfied with the results... When anemone is properly attaching to the food clowns are "satisfied" with the feeding attempt... They let the anemone eat sitting in the nearby not interested with food. It clearly shows to me the food brought to the anemone was intended for the anemone, not for themselves. Clowns have also been filmed in the wild luring fish into the anemone. Do think that is an intentional act of trying to feed the anemone ? If you are talking about a typical lounching attacks, than I have seen it. The fish launches attack and retreats to the anemone for selfdefense. Wake up PZ. A clown is just bring back a piece of food back to its safe home where it can eat it. My fish eats smaller pieces on the spot, where it finds it. It brings back to the anemone ONLY larger pieces which it cannot fit properly in its own mouth. It tests with a hosted anemone, the fish will bring back the food to the anemone, often where it does not get a chance to eat it. In the same test, where the anemone was then removed, the clown, after searching the tank for its anemone and could not find it, brought the food back to its prior home, a lift tube, where it ate the food. I do not observe this behaviour in my tank. At time you will actually see the clown trying to eat the food it has been brought back. Did you know and that it has been repeatedly shown, that clowns at times will pick up ANY large object in the near by water column they can carrier and bring it back to their home, be it an anemone or rock. Well, I have not seen this. Must be mine are more intelligent ;-) I have seen them dragging larger clump of caulerpa away from anemone during feedings of tangs. Clowns will also bring back food to it anemone even though the anemone shut down and can not eat .The food /object just then floats to the surface, often with the clown just bringing it back, only to float to he surface again. Yes, this I have observed. Clowns are very confused then... They repeat multiple times the process until the food is eaten by other fish. It is a simple case, the clown is bringing back the food to its home, where it is safe to eat, often with the anemone eating the food. That is NOT the clown feeding the anemone. How to explain fish not eating food they bring to the host? This is what I see in my tank. Anemone gets larger pieces, the only ones fish are unable to eat. Does the anemone get a meal, yes, did the clown feed it ........NO. Why are you so dedicated to prove it is not feeding ? Let it go. We do not argue about clowns intentions but the results of their actions. If you do not want to call it feeding - fine... but for me it is feeding. If your cat brings in a dead mouse and drops it near your dog is the cat feeding the dog. Never had a dog. Would dog eat the mouse in similar situation? If so, I am sure you can say "cat fed the mouse to the dog". Why not? You need to do some research and reading, there are to many myths in this hobby. If you can find it here is a great start I am not really so concerned with the clownfish intentions. I know that effectivelly, they PROVIDE food to the anemone. I had to feed it when clowns were not around. Now I do not have to do it. Clowns do it for me. The result is that the anemone is fed. Why? What for? I leave this for scientists... Behavior of Symbiotic Fishes and Sea Anemones Richard N. Mariscal Department of Biological Science Florida Sate University One people make remarks about the clown feeding their anemone and 99 % of the time they think of it as " my anemone needs to eat so I'll go get him some food and feed him" , like a Robin feeds it young . That is not what is taking place and has been my whole point. How much do you know birds? How well their brains are developed ? Do they realize the youngs are their offspring which needs to be fed? Or maybe they are mesmerized with their gaping mouths and they have natural reflex to put "something" in there to make them shut up ? The anemone is getting food from the clown but the clown is not being fed by the clown and the clown is NOT feeding the anemone and that is a difference. Something is wrong in this sentence... Many animals bring back food to a safe place to eat and that is all that is going on here, nothing else. I understand you do not want to call it feeding... But I do not see even small problem with calling this feeding :-) I judge the actions by the results, not by the intentions. If the anemone is being provided food items by fish it would normally not get, than the anemone IS being fed by the fish. "Providing food to be eaten" is simply called feeding in my dictionary. |
Rose anenome splitting
The above that Boomer stated I observe everytime I feed my fish
because I do not currently have an anemone my maroon clown has found a dug out spot in the rock formation which he defends and is constantly keeping clean. I Feed my lionfish shrimp parts and scallops mostly abd wekk the clown has shown a liking to these also so he will steal them off the stick if the lionfish is slow to get their. Guess where he takes it right to his hole every single time. |
Rose anenome splitting
"AverageSchmuck" wrote in message ...
The above that Boomer stated I observe everytime I feed my fish because I do not currently have an anemone my maroon clown has found a dug out spot in the rock formation which he defends and is constantly keeping clean. I Feed my lionfish shrimp parts and scallops mostly abd wekk the clown has shown a liking to these also so he will steal them off the stick if the lionfish is slow to get their. Guess where he takes it right to his hole every single time. Let me understand this: you keep a lionfish together with a clownfish in one tank ? |
Rose anenome splitting
yup ... as long as the fish is bigger than the lionfish's mouth no
problems. In fact the lionfish is more of a puss than the clown or the tang. On Wed, 5 Apr 2006 07:27:51 -0500, "Pszemol" wrote: "AverageSchmuck" wrote in message ... The above that Boomer stated I observe everytime I feed my fish because I do not currently have an anemone my maroon clown has found a dug out spot in the rock formation which he defends and is constantly keeping clean. I Feed my lionfish shrimp parts and scallops mostly abd wekk the clown has shown a liking to these also so he will steal them off the stick if the lionfish is slow to get their. Guess where he takes it right to his hole every single time. Let me understand this: you keep a lionfish together with a clownfish in one tank ? |
Rose anenome splitting
You obviously must still be in the be in the beginner stage, this is quite common lol.
Same with cleaner shrimp and many other fish to include fish smaller than the lion. As long as you know what you are doing -- Boomer If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up Former US Army Bomb Technician (EOD) Member; IABTI, NATEODA, WEODF, ISEE & IPS Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php Want to See More ! The Coral Realm http://www.coralrealm.com "Pszemol" wrote in message ... : "AverageSchmuck" wrote in message ... : The above that Boomer stated I observe everytime I feed my fish : because I do not currently have an anemone my maroon clown has found a : dug out spot in the rock formation which he defends and is constantly : keeping clean. I Feed my lionfish shrimp parts and scallops mostly abd : wekk the clown has shown a liking to these also so he will steal them : off the stick if the lionfish is slow to get their. Guess where he : takes it right to his hole every single time. : : Let me understand this: : you keep a lionfish together with a clownfish in one tank ? |
Rose anenome splitting
"Boomer" wrote in message ...
You obviously must still be in the be in the beginner stage, this is quite common lol. Same with cleaner shrimp and many other fish to include fish smaller than the lion. As long as you know what you are doing What exactly are you saying here ? What do you refer to by "same"? |
Rose anenome splitting
My assumption on what he/she means is that most people beleive that
Lionfish will eat any and all shrimp, etc placed in tank. But I have learned that lionfish are easier trained than my Basenji (dog). Extremely driven by stomach so very easy to setup a situation that is rewarding to the fish. However it is my assumption here. On Wed, 5 Apr 2006 12:50:20 -0500, "Pszemol" wrote: "Boomer" wrote in message ... You obviously must still be in the be in the beginner stage, this is quite common lol. Same with cleaner shrimp and many other fish to include fish smaller than the lion. As long as you know what you are doing What exactly are you saying here ? What do you refer to by "same"? |
Rose anenome splitting
"AverageSchmuck" wrote in message ...
My assumption on what he/she means is that most people beleive that Lionfish will eat any and all shrimp, etc placed in tank. But I have learned that lionfish are easier trained than my Basenji (dog). Extremely driven by stomach so very easy to setup a situation that is rewarding to the fish. However it is my assumption here. Well, I was asking before and expressing my surprise just because as most people I believed it is very aggressive fish which eats any other fish in the tank... In fact I have seen videos of other scorpion fish hunting in the nauture and it was impressive how wide their mouths open and suck the prey in an instant... I have never own lionfish myself (and I am not really attracted so much to such aggressive fish) so I have learned something new today... |
Rose anenome splitting
Your assumption would be correct
Same with cleaner shrimp and many other fish to include fish smaller than the lion. As long as you know what you are doing" Meaning you can keep all these with lions, if you know what you are doing. I kept a 12 " Volitans for 12 years in a 55 gal , with smaller fish and always with a pair of mated RBCS. -- Boomer If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up Former US Army Bomb Technician (EOD) Member; IABTI, NATEODA, WEODF, ISEE & IPS Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php Want to See More ! The Coral Realm http://www.coralrealm.com "AverageSchmuck" wrote in message ... : My assumption on what he/she means is that most people beleive that : Lionfish will eat any and all shrimp, etc placed in tank. But I have : learned that lionfish are easier trained than my Basenji (dog). : Extremely driven by stomach so very easy to setup a situation that is : rewarding to the fish. However it is my assumption here. : : On Wed, 5 Apr 2006 12:50:20 -0500, "Pszemol" : wrote: : : "Boomer" wrote in message ... : You obviously must still be in the be in the beginner stage, this is quite common lol. : Same with cleaner shrimp and many other fish to include fish smaller than the lion. : As long as you know what you are doing : : What exactly are you saying here ? What do you refer to by "same"? : |
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