always swimming up
 

One of my two lamp eye tetras is doing something odd. It just constantly
swims up. If he stops swimming he sinks like a rock, but it never stops
swimming straight up long enough to sink all the way to the bottom to just
lay/rest there. It's like he's swimming head first into a strong current...
constantly. He's eating and otherwise looks normal. Has been going on for
about a week and no other fish in the tank are doing this.

Is there anything I can do for him?

Thanks for the help,
Lydia

always swimming up
 

"Lydia" wrote in message
...
One of my two lamp eye tetras is doing something odd. It just
constantly
swims up. If he stops swimming he sinks like a rock, but it never
stops
swimming straight up long enough to sink all the way to the bottom to
just
lay/rest there. It's like he's swimming head first into a strong
current...
constantly. He's eating and otherwise looks normal. Has been going on
for
about a week and no other fish in the tank are doing this.

Is there anything I can do for him?

Thanks for the help,
Lydia

Fish regulate air in and out of an organ called a swim bladder. This
organ sits in the mid-point of their body's weight, slightly higher up
towards their dorsal fin. This organ usually works to keep their total
weight to be the same as the water (ie: tetras), so if they stop all
motion with their fins, they will just hang in the water, not sinking or
floating to the top. With catfish, it keeps them heavier. With
Hatchetfish, it keeps them lighter. Whenever fish eat, the swim bladder
has to adjust according to what was swallowed. Some fish have more
trouble with this than others. If the swim bladder is set to low in
their body, then any swallowed air will cause them to flip around and
swim upside down for a while (ie: goldfish). Tiger barbs tend to drop
their nose lower than their tails after a meal.

In the case of your Lampeye, the swimbladder's ability to regulate itself
is gone, and the fish doesn't have enough air inside, so the fish drops
to the bottom. It doesn't understand this, so it swims to the top,
before sinking again. How long it will live, whether it's contagious
etc, depends on the cause of the illness. Mechanical injury might repair
itself, organ failure or internal bacterial infection will probably not.

In nature, he would be eaten at the first sign of distress. In an
aquarium, it all depends on who he has for company. You can quarantine
him and if curious, add a bit of Epson salt into the water. A possible
course of action is antibiotics, but that's not practical or economical
for single small fish. Maybe it is just getting old.

NetMax

always swimming up
 

"NetMax" wrote in message
...
|
| Fish regulate air in and out of an organ called a swim bladder.
This
| organ sits in the mid-point of their body's weight, slightly higher
up
| towards their dorsal fin. This organ usually works to keep their
total
| weight to be the same as the water (ie: tetras), so if they stop
all
| motion with their fins, they will just hang in the water, not
sinking or
| floating to the top. With catfish, it keeps them heavier. With
| Hatchetfish, it keeps them lighter. Whenever fish eat, the swim
bladder
| has to adjust according to what was swallowed. Some fish have more
| trouble with this than others. If the swim bladder is set to low
in
| their body, then any swallowed air will cause them to flip around
and
| swim upside down for a while (ie: goldfish). Tiger barbs tend to
drop
| their nose lower than their tails after a meal.
|
| In the case of your Lampeye, the swimbladder's ability to regulate
itself
| is gone, and the fish doesn't have enough air inside, so the fish
drops
| to the bottom. It doesn't understand this, so it swims to the top,
| before sinking again. How long it will live, whether it's
contagious
| etc, depends on the cause of the illness. Mechanical injury might
repair
| itself, organ failure or internal bacterial infection will probably
not.
|
| In nature, he would be eaten at the first sign of distress. In an
| aquarium, it all depends on who he has for company. You can
quarantine
| him and if curious, add a bit of Epson salt into the water. A
possible
| course of action is antibiotics, but that's not practical or
economical
| for single small fish. Maybe it is just getting old.
|
| NetMax
|
|

Damn, you're good. g

Speaking of sale (was: always swimming up)
 

NetMax wrote:

In nature, he would be eaten at the first sign of distress. In an
aquarium, it all depends on who he has for company. You can quarantine
him and if curious, add a bit of Epson salt into the water. A possible
course of action is antibiotics, but that's not practical or economical
for single small fish. Maybe it is just getting old.

Speaking of salt, how well do plecos react to aquarium salt? I use salt
in all of my tanks for ich prevention, and tomorrow each tank will be
getting at least one.

Speaking of sale (was: always swimming up)
 

I have been using salt in the tanks with pleco for years.... It hasn't
bothered them yet!!! Just don't over do it.

--
Craig Williams
_________________________________

www.Canadiancray.tk
"Polarhound" wrote in message
...
NetMax wrote:

In nature, he would be eaten at the first sign of distress. In an
aquarium, it all depends on who he has for company. You can quarantine
him and if curious, add a bit of Epson salt into the water. A possible
course of action is antibiotics, but that's not practical or economical
for single small fish. Maybe it is just getting old.

Speaking of salt, how well do plecos react to aquarium salt? I use salt
in all of my tanks for ich prevention, and tomorrow each tank will be
getting at least one.

Speaking of sale (was: always swimming up)
 

"Polarhound" wrote in message
...
NetMax wrote:

In nature, he would be eaten at the first sign of distress. In an
aquarium, it all depends on who he has for company. You can
quarantine
him and if curious, add a bit of Epson salt into the water. A
possible
course of action is antibiotics, but that's not practical or
economical
for single small fish. Maybe it is just getting old.

Speaking of salt, how well do plecos react to aquarium salt? I use
salt
in all of my tanks for ich prevention, and tomorrow each tank will be
getting at least one.

Epson salt (magnesium sulphate?) would _not_ be what you're using (it's a
purgative for constipation ;~). Either aquarium salt (sodium chloride)
or marine salt (if you wanted to increase your gH at the same time).

The fact that hobbyists still debate the virtues of salt indicates to me
that its usefulness has not been completely settled. I can't tell you
what a salt-stressed pleco behaves like, so the anecdotal evidence might
be that they continued to behave normally (though 'normal' behaviour for
a pleco, doesn't offer a lot of clues ;~).

It's mostly accepted that pathogens like Ich don't like salt, and that it
can aid in slime production and healing wounds. I've also read that it
adds electrolytes reducing osmotic stress to the gills. That sounds like
a good thing in a situation where fish are under stress (like moving to a
different tank).

It also increases your TDS (not good) and may undesirably increase your
gH. Plants don't care for salt. Salt accumulates (does not evaporate),
so its replenishment should only be according to the quantity of water
removed. Many fish from soft acidic waters don't care for it, and your
plecos most likely come from the same waterways as Discus and Cardinal
tetras.

There is also the question of dosage. Just stating that plecos, plants &
Ich don't like salt is not really useful until you have concentration
levels to reference, to reach the desired (or undesired) effect. IIRC,
the preventative dosage is 1 tablespoon per 5 US gallons. Unless you
have a cause, I wouldn't recommend salt be used by beginners. Healthy
fish don't suffer its absence. Legitimate non-medicinal uses are for
keeping Goldfish, Livebearers and brackish water fishes, and use marine
salt if your water is very soft.

This probably didn't answer your question, but I can spin a good tale ;~)
NetMax

Speaking of sale (was: always swimming up)
 

"NetMax" wrote in
:
It's mostly accepted that pathogens like Ich don't like salt, and that
it
can aid in slime production and healing wounds. I've also read that
it adds electrolytes reducing osmotic stress to the gills. That
sounds like a good thing in a situation where fish are under stress
(like moving to a different tank).


NaCl (sodium chloride) salt dissolves in water, which means it breaks
down into Na+1 and Cl-1 (the plus and minus number means the charge).
Water in it's pure state does not conduct electricity at normal
voltages; so, pure water (H2O) is called a non-electrolyte. When NaCL
dissolves in water, the positive and negative ions it puts into the
water help facilitate conduction of electricity. Therefore, a solution
of NaCl in water is called an elecrolyte.

Osmosis is when water diffuses (goes through) a porous membrane such as:
a plastic bag, human skin, or a cell wall. Pure water on either side of
a membrane will not go through it. But, if the water on one side of the
membrane has more salt in it than the other. The water on the other
side will diffuse through the membrane until the concentration of salt
on both sides it equal. Here is a little "diagram" that will illustrate
this a little better than me awkwardly trying to explain it.

Lower Conc. Salt : Membrane : Higher Conc. Salt

H2O H2O | Na+ H2O
Cl- H2O | Cl- Na+
H2O H20 | H2O
Na+ | Cl- H2O
H2O H20 H20 | H20

Here H20 will move from the left side to the right until the number of
Na+ and Cl- ions to H2O molecules is the same on both sides (in this
case 4 H2O molecules move to the right). This property usually applies
to a solution of anything. Including water with differing pH's (because
pH is really a measure of the conc. of H+ ions in water. it is the
-log{H+} to be exact).

Osmostic pressure (as defined in Biology I think, the Chemists'
definition is different) is the water pushing on the membrane trying to
get in. The amount and rate the water diffuses depends on how much
osmostic pressure the membrane can stand.

Our bodies, including a fish's, naturally has salt in it to facilitate
the transimission of "electronic" signals that control muscle movement,
etc.. That means in freshwater, water wants to get in and usually does.
Ever notice your fingers look like "prunes" in the bathtub or that you
pee more often than normal when swimming in a lake :o), and that you
tend to get dehydrated more quickly in the sea. Sal****er fish are used
to living in an environment that the osmotic pressure on their cells is
low. So, in freshwater, a sal****er fish can't remove water as well and
its cells swell with water and explode (kablooey :o), which of course
kills the fish.

Osmotic pressure affects how the swim bladder works. In a more salty
water, it can more easily get rid of water in the bladder to control how
the fish floats, sinks, etc.. Sometimes this can be good or bad. For a
sick fish it is usually good except when they can't tolerate salt. I
have no idea what really effects how a fish tolerates salt.

So, if your fish is having a problem removing water from its swim
bladder, adding salt will reduce the pressure that works against the
bladder. This will allow more of the fish's energy to be used to fight
what is causing any sickness.

NetMax, your posts are really good. I thought I'd just elaborate a bit on
what I know about salt because I'm bored :o).

Speaking of sale (was: always swimming up)
 

"Donny" wrote in message
...
"NetMax" wrote in
:
It's mostly accepted that pathogens like Ich don't like salt, and
that
it
can aid in slime production and healing wounds. I've also read that
it adds electrolytes reducing osmotic stress to the gills. That
sounds like a good thing in a situation where fish are under stress
(like moving to a different tank).


NaCl (sodium chloride) salt dissolves in water, which means...
big snip
...if your fish is having a problem removing water from its swim
bladder, adding salt will reduce the pressure that works against the
bladder. This will allow more of the fish's energy to be used to fight
what is causing any sickness.

NetMax, your posts are really good. I thought I'd just elaborate a bit
on
what I know about salt because I'm bored :o).

You should post bored more often then ;~) I get all my chemistry and
most of my biology lessons right here. Do you know why magnesium
sulphate is recommended as a purgative (Epson salt). I wasn't sure if
the sodium chloride or the magnesium sulphate would be best for swim
bladder regulation, but from your explanation, I suspect that it would be
the sodium chloride.

NetMax

Speaking of sale (was: always swimming up)
 

"NetMax" wrote in news:LrJbc.31253$j57.1434228
@news20.bellglobal.com:


You should post bored more often then ;~) I get all my chemistry and
most of my biology lessons right here. Do you know why magnesium
sulphate is recommended as a purgative (Epson salt). I wasn't sure if
the sodium chloride or the magnesium sulphate would be best for swim
bladder regulation, but from your explanation, I suspect that it would be
the sodium chloride.

NetMax


I'm not sure why Epson salt is a purgative. But, I believe it would tend
to decrease pH, which could produce unstable water quality, besides
increasing fish waste ;o).

Epsom salt would decrease pH because when magnesium sulfate MgSO4 dissolves
it forms Mg+2 and SO4-2. SO4-2 is neutral in water but Mg+2 will produce
acid solutions because of how it interacts with water.

Speaking of sale (was: always swimming up)
 

"Donny" wrote in message
...

Osmostic pressure (as defined in Biology I think, the Chemists'
definition is different) is the water pushing on the membrane trying to
get in. The amount and rate the water diffuses depends on how much
osmostic pressure the membrane can stand.

From what I remember from high school, the amount and rate actually
depends only on the difference in ion concentration of the liquids on
either side of the membrane. For a given concentration difference,
osmotic pressure will raise the liquid level by a defined height
in a U-shaped tube with the membrane at the bottom, dividing
the left and right half of the U. Double the concentration on one
side, and you get a difference in liquid level twice as large.

Sal****er fish are used
to living in an environment that the osmotic pressure on their cells is
low. So, in freshwater, a sal****er fish can't remove water as well and
its cells swell with water and explode (kablooey :o), which of course
kills the fish.

Sal****er fish have to drink sea water to make up for the loss of liquid
that is caused by osmotic pressure. The ocean around them is at a
higher salt concentration than their blood, so water continuously escapes
through the fish's skin trying to dilute the ocean. The fish has to drink
water to compensate for the loss (and sal****er fish have mechanisms
to get rid of the extra salt they take in that way). For freshwater fish,
the opposite is true: the water around them is at a lower concentration
than their blood, so water continuously intrudes trying to dilute the fish.
The fish copes with that by excreting the excess water. In other words,
sal****er fish **** has a lot of salt in it, and freshwater fish **** has
little
salt in it :-)

While I'm rambling, it turns out that the salt concentration of most animals
is in quite a narrow band. In particular, animals living in sal****er have
very closely the same salt concentration in their blood as animals living
in freshwater. This gives rise to the theory that oceans were once less
salty than they are now, and that the salt concentration of animal blood
closely approximates the salt concentration of ancient oceans. The idea
is that animals started out with a salt concentration that matched that of
the surrounding ocean and then evolved mechanisms to cope with
different concentrations in their environment later.

Cheers,

Michi.

--
Michi Henning Ph: +61 4 1118-2700
ZeroC, Inc. http://www.zeroc.com

always swimming up
 

"Dinky" wrote in message
link.net...


"NetMax" wrote in message
...
|
| Fish regulate air in and out of an organ called a swim bladder.
This
| organ sits in the mid-point of their body's weight, slightly higher
up
| towards their dorsal fin. This organ usually works to keep their
total
| weight to be the same as the water (ie: tetras), so if they stop
all
| motion with their fins, they will just hang in the water, not
sinking or
| floating to the top. With catfish, it keeps them heavier. With
| Hatchetfish, it keeps them lighter. Whenever fish eat, the swim
bladder
| has to adjust according to what was swallowed. Some fish have more
| trouble with this than others. If the swim bladder is set to low
in
| their body, then any swallowed air will cause them to flip around
and
| swim upside down for a while (ie: goldfish). Tiger barbs tend to
drop
| their nose lower than their tails after a meal.
|
| In the case of your Lampeye, the swimbladder's ability to regulate
itself
| is gone, and the fish doesn't have enough air inside, so the fish
drops
| to the bottom. It doesn't understand this, so it swims to the top,
| before sinking again. How long it will live, whether it's
contagious
| etc, depends on the cause of the illness. Mechanical injury might
repair
| itself, organ failure or internal bacterial infection will probably
not.
|
| In nature, he would be eaten at the first sign of distress. In an
| aquarium, it all depends on who he has for company. You can
quarantine
| him and if curious, add a bit of Epson salt into the water. A
possible
| course of action is antibiotics, but that's not practical or
economical
| for single small fish. Maybe it is just getting old.
|
| NetMax
|
|

Damn, you're good. g



Thanks very much for the advice. It *is* an older fish. I had 3 original
lamp eye tetras who had about 5 babies in early 1999. I was down to 3 of
the babies when one of them died a few months ago. So now it's the last
two, 5-year-olds. He's still hanging in there and no other fish pester him
so I think I'll just keep a close eye on it for now.

I had heard of the swim bladder and could assume what it might do, but never
had a full explanation... and didn't know if it was something that could be
fixed or not until your message so thanks again very much!

Lydia

Speaking of sale (was: always swimming up)
 

"Michi Henning" wrote in
:

"Donny" wrote in message
...

Osmostic pressure (as defined in Biology I think, the Chemists'
definition is different) is the water pushing on the membrane trying
to get in. The amount and rate the water diffuses depends on how
much osmostic pressure the membrane can stand.

From what I remember from high school, the amount and rate actually
depends only on the difference in ion concentration of the liquids on
either side of the membrane. For a given concentration difference,
osmotic pressure will raise the liquid level by a defined height
in a U-shaped tube with the membrane at the bottom, dividing
the left and right half of the U. Double the concentration on one
side, and you get a difference in liquid level twice as large.

Sal****er fish are used
to living in an environment that the osmotic pressure on their cells
is low. So, in freshwater, a sal****er fish can't remove water as
well and its cells swell with water and explode (kablooey :o), which
of course kills the fish.

Sal****er fish have to drink sea water to make up for the loss of
liquid that is caused by osmotic pressure. The ocean around them is at
a higher salt concentration than their blood, so water continuously
escapes through the fish's skin trying to dilute the ocean. The fish
has to drink water to compensate for the loss (and sal****er fish have
mechanisms to get rid of the extra salt they take in that way). For
freshwater fish, the opposite is true: the water around them is at a
lower concentration than their blood, so water continuously intrudes
trying to dilute the fish. The fish copes with that by excreting the
excess water. In other words, sal****er fish **** has a lot of salt in
it, and freshwater fish **** has little
salt in it :-)

While I'm rambling, it turns out that the salt concentration of most
animals is in quite a narrow band. In particular, animals living in
sal****er have very closely the same salt concentration in their blood
as animals living in freshwater. This gives rise to the theory that
oceans were once less salty than they are now, and that the salt
concentration of animal blood closely approximates the salt
concentration of ancient oceans. The idea is that animals started out
with a salt concentration that matched that of the surrounding ocean
and then evolved mechanisms to cope with different concentrations in
their environment later.

Cheers,

Michi.

--
Michi Henning Ph: +61 4 1118-2700
ZeroC, Inc. http://www.zeroc.com



You are right about osmotic pressure. Rate does depend on the difference
in ion concentration, but I think it also depends on the properties of
the membrane. With initial concentrations constant, water will diffuse
faster through a more porous membrane and won't diffuse as fast, if at
all, through others. I don't think I necessarily believe you on the
evolution thing. I'm a creationist myself :-).

OT evolutionary quirks, was Speaking of sale (was: always swimming up)
 

"Michi Henning" wrote in message
...
"Donny" wrote in message
...

snip In other words,
sal****er fish **** has a lot of salt in it, and freshwater fish ****
has
little
salt in it :-)

When you put it that way ;~)

While I'm rambling, it turns out that the salt concentration of most
animals
is in quite a narrow band. In particular, animals living in sal****er
have
very closely the same salt concentration in their blood as animals
living
in freshwater. This gives rise to the theory that oceans were once less
salty than they are now, and that the salt concentration of animal
blood
closely approximates the salt concentration of ancient oceans. The idea
is that animals started out with a salt concentration that matched that
of
the surrounding ocean and then evolved mechanisms to cope with
different concentrations in their environment later.

Interesting angle on evolutionary baselines. I once read that if you
isolated someone from outside influence and daylight, that they adopt a
shorter day than 24 hours (by about 1/2 an hour). The theory is that the
earth's rotation now, has slowed since we were programmed by it's rythm.

NetMax

Cheers,

Michi.

--
Michi Henning Ph: +61 4 1118-2700
ZeroC, Inc. http://www.zeroc.com

Speaking of sale (was: always swimming up)
 

"CanadianCray" wrote in message
...
I have been using salt in the tanks with pleco for years.... It hasn't
bothered them yet!!! Just don't over do it.

My motto for freshwater tanks (for more than 20 years) has been keep them
fresh. I never add salt. YMMV.


Graham.

Speaking of sale (was: always swimming up)
 

"Donny" wrote in message
...
I'm not sure why Epson salt is a purgative. But, I believe it would tend
to decrease pH, which could produce unstable water quality, besides
increasing fish waste ;o).

Epsom salt would decrease pH because when magnesium sulfate MgSO4
dissolves
it forms Mg+2 and SO4-2. SO4-2 is neutral in water but Mg+2 will produce
acid solutions because of how it interacts with water.

There are enormous amounts of discussion in rec.aquaria.freshwater.plants
about the usefulness of
MgSO4 in a tropical aquarium.

Indeed, you can find more science that you can cope with relating to KNO3,
K2SO4 and other things
in a brief visit to that newsgroup.

Graham.

OT rafp, was Speaking of sale (was: always swimming up)
 

"Graham Broadbridge" wrote in message
u...
"Donny" wrote in message
...
I'm not sure why Epson salt is a purgative. But, I believe it would
tend
to decrease pH, which could produce unstable water quality, besides
increasing fish waste ;o).

Epsom salt would decrease pH because when magnesium sulfate MgSO4
dissolves
it forms Mg+2 and SO4-2. SO4-2 is neutral in water but Mg+2 will
produce
acid solutions because of how it interacts with water.

There are enormous amounts of discussion in
rec.aquaria.freshwater.plants
about the usefulness of
MgSO4 in a tropical aquarium.

Indeed, you can find more science that you can cope with relating to
KNO3,
K2SO4 and other things
in a brief visit to that newsgroup.

Graham.

science & r.a.f.p., you aren't kidding. I have an engineering
background (electrical) but I don't often lurk in r.a.f.p. as the
chemistry gets overwhelming (you have to wonder when an engineer feels
something is too complicated ;~). I'm sure r.a.f.p. has more scientific
discussions in a month than sci.aquaria & rec.aquaria.tech has combined,
and the funniest thing is that they are all gardeners :o) (very smart
gardeners).

NetMax

OT evolutionary quirks, was Speaking of sale (was: always swimming up)
 

"NetMax" wrote in message
.. .


Interesting angle on evolutionary baselines. I once read that if you
isolated someone from outside influence and daylight, that they adopt a
shorter day than 24 hours (by about 1/2 an hour). The theory is that the
earth's rotation now, has slowed since we were programmed by it's rythm.

NetMax

Might be, but many people in Antarctica when I was there, including myself,
free cycle on longer than 24 hrs days.
about 24.5 in my case. It is an individual thing.

bbo

OT evolutionary quirks, was Speaking of sale (was: always swimming up)
 

NetMax wrote:

Interesting angle on evolutionary baselines. I once read that if you
isolated someone from outside influence and daylight, that they adopt
a shorter day than 24 hours (by about 1/2 an hour). The theory is
that the earth's rotation now, has slowed since we were programmed by
it's rythm.

Left to my own devices, I tend toward a 28 hour day, which makes
socializtion somewhat awkward at times. I'm pretty sure that I'm the
remnant of aliens who crashed on Earth. My friend find this an
agreeable theory. Mom remains tight-lipped about the possibility.

I anticipate imminent rescue.


--
www.ericschreiber.com

OT evolutionary quirks, was Speaking of sale (was: always swimming up)
 

"Eric Schreiber" eric at ericschreiber dot com wrote in message
...
NetMax wrote:

Interesting angle on evolutionary baselines. I once read that if you
isolated someone from outside influence and daylight, that they adopt
a shorter day than 24 hours (by about 1/2 an hour). The theory is
that the earth's rotation now, has slowed since we were programmed by
it's rythm.

Left to my own devices, I tend toward a 28 hour day, which makes
socializtion somewhat awkward at times. I'm pretty sure that I'm the
remnant of aliens who crashed on Earth. My friend find this an
agreeable theory. Mom remains tight-lipped about the possibility.

I anticipate imminent rescue.


--
www.ericschreiber.com

When you go, can you leave me your fish? I've heard that interplanetary
travel does not agree with tropical fish. All those cosmic rays and the
artificial gravity stresses them out. ;~)

NetMax

OT evolutionary quirks, was Speaking of sale (was: always swimming up)
 

NetMax wrote:

When you go, can you leave me your fish? I've heard that
interplanetary travel does not agree with tropical fish. All those
cosmic rays and the artificial gravity stresses them out. ;~)

I'll have them beamed directly into your tanks.


--
www.ericschreiber.com

OT evolutionary quirks, was Speaking of sale (was: always swimming up)
 

"Eric Schreiber" wrote ...
NetMax wrote:

When you go, can you leave me your fish? I've heard that
interplanetary travel does not agree with tropical fish. All those
cosmic rays and the artificial gravity stresses them out. ;~)

I'll have them beamed directly into your tanks.


--
www.ericschreiber.com

hmmm, fish from space... I guess I should probably quarantine them *no
offence* ;~)

Along the lines of extreme conditions for fish, the worst place for an
aquarium that I can imagine is built into the back window of a car (I
think the front would be illegal?). I wonder why no one has tried it
yet. There's the vibration, temperature swings, electricity needed, and
how about the algae from direct sunlight? I know just the fish I'd do it
with ;~)

NetMax