|
|
How smart are fish ?
I have a problem... in my huge wisom I have covered a side wall
of the fishtank with a mirror-foil. Just to cover the unpleasant view behind of the tank... and to get some more light reflected back. Today I let the fish in this new tank... A pair of maroon clowns and hepatus tang get crazy seeing their own reflection in the tank wall. Now my title question: will they realize this is just a mirror soon or they will continue to fight the other fish in the mirror? How smart are they ? It is difficult to take the foil off since it is in a tight space between the tank and room wall... First day I turned off the lights sooner and wonder what will the group advice be... Should I go trought the trouble of removing the foil or the fish will get used to this reflection soon ? If so, how soon will it be ? |
How smart are fish ?
Fish are not intelligent at all, they don't need to be, they have instincts
instead of handling difficult decisions. I used to raise fighting chicken. They are territorial and will defend its domain to the death, literally. You see, they have no choice, they will respond to a stimuli in the same way over and over and over again. So, if they get a response "starter" the reaction will be the same. In the case of fish, well, they are a couple of steps down from birds in the evolutionary scale. They will be triggered by the reflection and will respond in the same way for ever regardless of self-injury. Remember, animals don't know death or that their wounds are not going to heal. I visited a friend with a similar issue with a fish but he liked the aggressive reaction of the fish. Well, I visited him two years later and the same fish was doing the same funny reaction after an illumination trigger. But don't worry, as soon as they acknowledge its new "neighbors" as harmless, they will go around and invest their energy in other things. Yes they will comeback again but will not stay there for long. In the other hand, if they associate the other fish with the pain they felt after the hit, lol, you better change backgrounds. iy "Pszemol" wrote in message ... I have a problem... in my huge wisom I have covered a side wall of the fishtank with a mirror-foil. Just to cover the unpleasant view behind of the tank... and to get some more light reflected back. Today I let the fish in this new tank... A pair of maroon clowns and hepatus tang get crazy seeing their own reflection in the tank wall. Now my title question: will they realize this is just a mirror soon or they will continue to fight the other fish in the mirror? How smart are they ? It is difficult to take the foil off since it is in a tight space between the tank and room wall... First day I turned off the lights sooner and wonder what will the group advice be... Should I go trought the trouble of removing the foil or the fish will get used to this reflection soon ? If so, how soon will it be ? |
How smart are fish ?
Inabón Yunes wrote on 7/23/2006 12:50 AM: Fish are not intelligent at all, they don't need to be, they have instincts instead of handling difficult decisions. Not true. Fish are able to learn who feeds them, and who doesn't. Able to learn what the fish food container looks like. Able to recognize the fridge when someone opens the door, and they will beg for food every time you open the fridge if they are used to getting frozen food. Able to learn to come to you when you call them. And able to learn many other things. I used to raise fighting chicken. They are territorial and will defend its domain to the death, literally. You see, they have no choice, they will respond to a stimuli in the same way over and over and over again. So, if they get a response "starter" the reaction will be the same. In the case of fish, well, they are a couple of steps down from birds in the evolutionary scale. They will be triggered by the reflection and will respond in the same way for ever regardless of self-injury. Remember, animals don't know death or that their wounds are not going to heal. Not true. Fish know when they are dying. I visited a friend with a similar issue with a fish but he liked the aggressive reaction of the fish. Well, I visited him two years later and the same fish was doing the same funny reaction after an illumination trigger. But don't worry, as soon as they acknowledge its new "neighbors" as harmless, they will go around and invest their energy in other things. Yes they will comeback again but will not stay there for long. In the other hand, if they associate the other fish with the pain they felt after the hit, lol, you better change backgrounds. iy Fish are a lot smarter than people give them credit for. Wayne Sallee Wayne's Pets |
How smart are fish ?
Inabón Yunes wrote on 7/23/2006 12:50 AM:
In the case of fish, well, they are a couple of steps down from birds in the evolutionary scale. Evolution is a great for people that don't want to acknowledge the reality of the Creator. My computer evolved from a toaster oven. I tried to make some toast the other day, but even though the slots are of different sizes, I could not get a slice of bread in there. Obviously, an inferior evolutionary process. I'm sure it will become extinct soon. Get a chain, and cut every other link. Throw out all of the cut links. Take all of the intact links and arrange them so that they look pretty. You will then have a good working model of the theory of evolution. Actually, evolution is easy to prove. Simply gather some old bones from a variety of animals (your choice), and some human bones, and put them together so that they look half human, and then give it a name like Suzie. Scientist have recently discovered a new class of creatures down deep in the sea. They have classified them in the zoowacko group. They have 2 heads and 3 eyes on each head :-) Zigg and Zagg, Martians from Venus (they were born on Mars, but now live on Venus), did a study of the evolutionary order on earth. They decided to first doccument the order of evolvement of machines, since it was what most interested them. It was quite interesting reading, and learning how the different machines evolved from each other, like cars, trucks, microwaves, television sets, laptops, PDA's, watches, cranes, excetera. If you do a search on the internet you might be able to find their report :-) They still have a few missing links to figure out. After they get that study completely finished, they are going to do their next study on animals and it's evolvement on the great planet Earth. After both of those studies are completed and proven, they are to decide "which came first, the animals, or the machines?" Zigg and Zagg have pritty-much decided that the machines came first since they are more basic in construction than the animals, but that has yet to be proven. Wayne Sallee Wayne's Pets |
How smart are fish ?
"Wayne Sallee" wrote in message ...
Inabón Yunes wrote on 7/23/2006 12:50 AM: In the case of fish, well, they are a couple of steps down from birds in the evolutionary scale. Evolution is a great for people that don't want to acknowledge the reality of the Creator. Creationism is great or people that don't want to acknowledge the fact they are alone in the Universe and there is no God listening to their prayers :-) My computer evolved from a toaster oven. I tried to make some toast the other day, but even though the slots are of different sizes, I could not get a slice of bread in there. Obviously, an inferior evolutionary process. I'm sure it will become extinct soon. No, it is not evolved from the toaster oven, Wayne... That was quite a foolish example :-) Get a chain, and cut every other link. Throw out all of the cut links. Take all of the intact links and arrange them so that they look pretty. You will then have a good working model of the theory of evolution. Only people who do not know evolution enough could make such a comment. Actually, evolution is easy to prove. Simply gather some old bones from a variety of animals (your choice), and some human bones, and put them together so that they look half human, and then give it a name like Suzie. Evolution theory gets new proofs every day with all the work scientists are doing all over The World. The problem is that you will not learn about these discoveries in church! You need to read some real books to find out about them! For some people, it is way too difficult to read science books, so they settle for "easy answers" derived from "Holy Bible". They do not explain anything this way - they just replace missing knowledge with unable to be prooven fairy tales... LOL :-) Every interesting question has only one answer in Creationism: "God did it". This way you can explain everything, but you will remain KNOWING NOTHING AT ALL. Scientist have recently discovered a new class of creatures down deep in the sea. They have classified them in the zoowacko group. They have 2 heads and 3 eyes on each head :-) Oh, really ? I would like to read about them... Throw some details, please. |
How smart are fish ?
Pszemol wrote on 7/24/2006 11:25 AM: Scientist have recently discovered a new class of creatures down deep in the sea. They have classified them in the zoowacko group. They have 2 heads and 3 eyes on each head :-) Oh, really ? I would like to read about them... Throw some details, please. Notice the "zowacko" name :-) Obviously there are no creatures with 2 heads and 3 eyes on each head. :-) There are deformities some times, but they are not normal. One thing that I find interesting, is that people that believe in evolution think that there is less similarities between people and animals than people that believe in creation. Wayne Sallee Wayne's Pets |
How smart are fish ?
"Wayne Sallee" wrote in message ...
One thing that I find interesting, is that people that believe in evolution think that there is less similarities between people and animals than people that believe in creation. What are you talking about ? Where have you noticed this? I find exactly opposite in my observations... Christians believe only humans have souls - animals are things you can kill and eat, people are "better" than animals. Only people go to heaven, right ? :-) The single thing Darvin said about similarities about people to other primates created the most of his enemies. People believing in God believe they are special and significantly different from "beasts". Scientists see much more similarities between humans and other living beings than creationists. |
How smart are fish ?
Wayne Sallee wrote:
Not true. Fish know when they are dying. I visited a friend with a similar issue with a fish but he liked the aggressive reaction of the fish. Well, I visited him two years later and the same fish was doing the same funny reaction after an illumination trigger. But don't worry, as soon as they acknowledge its new "neighbors" as harmless, they will go around and invest their energy in other things. Yes they will comeback again but will not stay there for long. In the other hand, if they associate the other fish with the pain they felt after the hit, lol, you better change backgrounds. iy Fish are a lot smarter than people give them credit for. I agree with everything WS says. Unfortunately there seems to be no profit to be made from subsidizing research on fish intelligence, so there is minimum evidence of their learning ability, aside from anecdotes. But there are plenty of those. My fish know me, of course, especially the Cichlids who hide from everyone else. Pond fish, sal****er, turtles, everyone knows I'm food. They also know, I swear, who the net is after and only that fish becomes truly evasive. Anyone who says the fish don't know when they're dying has never looked in their eyes and felt painfully called upon and helpless. Granted I do some reading into what I see, but my empathy is based on clear observation. rtk |
How smart are fish ?
The idea that "fish don't think, but only react with
instinct" is one example of what I am talking about. Wayne Sallee Wayne's Pets Pszemol wrote on 7/24/2006 12:22 PM: "Wayne Sallee" wrote in message ... One thing that I find interesting, is that people that believe in evolution think that there is less similarities between people and animals than people that believe in creation. What are you talking about ? Where have you noticed this? I find exactly opposite in my observations... Christians believe only humans have souls - animals are things you can kill and eat, people are "better" than animals. Only people go to heaven, right ? :-) The single thing Darvin said about similarities about people to other primates created the most of his enemies. People believing in God believe they are special and significantly different from "beasts". Scientists see much more similarities between humans and other living beings than creationists. |
How smart are fish ?
Wayne Sallee wrote in
: Follow-up pointed to talk.origins Inabón Yunes wrote on 7/23/2006 12:50 AM: In the case of fish, well, they are a couple of steps down from birds in the evolutionary scale. Evolution is a great for people that don't want to acknowledge the reality of the Creator. The small-minded are incapable of seeing that the two aren't mutually exclusive. Congrats, Wayne, you're working hard to reduce the status of the Almighty to that of a petty god of the gaps... I'm sure He's pleased with your enthusiasm, if not your end result. My computer evolved from a toaster oven. A statement of your fundamental misunderstanding of 'evolved'... I tried to make some toast the other day, but even though the slots are of different sizes, I could not get a slice of bread in there. Obviously, an inferior evolutionary process. I'm sure it will become extinct soon. A statement of your fundamental misunderstanding of both 'toaster oven' and 'computer'... Get a chain, and cut every other link. Throw out all of the cut links. Take all of the intact links and arrange them so that they look pretty. You will then have a good working model of the theory of evolution. No, you'd just have an inaccurate anecdote of your misunderstanding of evolution, and perhaps the vague feeling that you're being clever. Balance snipped, since it can be read here; http://groups.google.com/group/rec.a...6afab43d63180d 0?dmode=source How disappointingly unoriginal, Wayne... Regards, R. David Zopf Atom Weaver |
How smart are fish ?
Wayne Sallee wrote in news:44C4F60B.7010007
@WayneSallee.com: The idea that "fish don't think, but only react with instinct" is one example of what I am talking about. Its telling that your example is at least as un-scientific as your own Creationist view... Why would anyone associate this idea with evolution? Regards DaveZ Atom Weaver Pszemol wrote on 7/24/2006 12:22 PM: "Wayne Sallee" wrote in message ... One thing that I find interesting, is that people that believe in evolution think that there is less similarities between people and animals than people that believe in creation. What are you talking about ? Where have you noticed this? I find exactly opposite in my observations... Christians believe only humans have souls - animals are things you can kill and eat, people are "better" than animals. Only people go to heaven, right ? :-) The single thing Darvin said about similarities about people to other primates created the most of his enemies. People believing in God believe they are special and significantly different from "beasts". Scientists see much more similarities between humans and other living beings than creationists. |
How smart are fish ?
On Mon, 24 Jul 2006 10:25:52 -0500, "Pszemol"
wrote: "Wayne Sallee" wrote in message ... Get a chain, and cut every other link. Throw out all of the cut links. Take all of the intact links and arrange them so that they look pretty. You will then have a good working model of the theory of evolution. Only people who do not know evolution enough could make such a comment. Actually, I think there is something to be said for his description. Wayne clearly doesn't understand evolution, but I think he's stumbled onto something. The basic thing to understand is the part about "get a chain..." This describes the fact of evolution - there IS a chain, and it does exist in a specific sequence. (Actually, a "chain" is way too simplistic, it's more of a gnarly viny bush or something, but the chain will suffice for the simple conceptual model) But the fossil record is incomplete. Fossils are extremely rare, and for many organisms, they are never ever formed. For those organisms that had bones and solid parts that would lend themselves to fossilization, conditions must be JUST right for a fossil to be formed. That's a very rare occurrence. This is where the "cut every other link" comes in. We don't have fossils of all the animals that ever existed (every link) - we only have a few. So we humans are left with what was obviously a chain of some sort, and we have a certain number of links in that chain. This is where the "arrange them" part comes in. We try to draw a view of that chain as it actually existed, and place the links where they really go. It's not Wayne's "so that they look pretty", but it's "so they make sense and reflect the reality of evolutionary development." |
How smart are fish ?
atomweaver wrote on 7/24/2006 3:25 PM:
Balance snipped, since it can be read here; http://groups.google.com/group/rec.a...6afab43d63180d 0?dmode=source How disappointingly unoriginal, Wayne... LOL what's that supposed to mean??? I'm one of a kind :-) hehehe Wayne Sallee Wayne's Pets |
How smart are fish ?
"Wayne Sallee" wrote in message ...
The idea that "fish don't think, but only react with instinct" is one example of what I am talking about. There are two kinds of an instinct, Wayne... One - they are borned with, and the second one they can learn. The second one is also called Pavlov instinct in the appreciation of the work this scientists has done for the understanding animal behaviour. Fish reaction to food is the first kind: they do not have to learn to eat. Fish reacting to the fridge opening or seeing a person next to the tank is the second kind - the same as the one Pavlov dogs developed an salivation reflex for the sound of the bell. Do more reading here http://www.es.flinders.edu.au/~matto...lecture30.html If you do a search on google with a keyword Pavlov and dog you will find more interesting facts you could match with your fish... |
How smart are fish ?
"Wayne Sallee" wrote in message ...
LOL what's that supposed to mean??? I'm one of a kind :-) hehehe I do not think your argument with toaster oven was an originally yours... But anyway - is there any proof for evolution you would be willing to accet as "convincing" you the theory works ? Or you just totaly reject the theory on the basis of religion and your faith/believe in God ?? In the second case no proof, even the "in your face" one would change your mind and the further discussion is simply mute. Please let me know - we could then move on to more interesting stuff ;-) |
How smart are fish ?
|
How smart are fish ?
Instinct: a largely inheritable and unalterable tendency
of an organism to make a complex and specific response to environmental stimuli without involving reason. So someone decided to redefine the word? hehehe I find it interesting that you are arguing in this direction after your earlier argument about the anemone fish and it's anemone. Wayne Sallee Wayne's Pets Pszemol wrote on 7/24/2006 5:48 PM: "Wayne Sallee" wrote in message ... The idea that "fish don't think, but only react with instinct" is one example of what I am talking about. There are two kinds of an instinct, Wayne... One - they are borned with, and the second one they can learn. The second one is also called Pavlov instinct in the appreciation of the work this scientists has done for the understanding animal behaviour. Fish reaction to food is the first kind: they do not have to learn to eat. Fish reacting to the fridge opening or seeing a person next to the tank is the second kind - the same as the one Pavlov dogs developed an salivation reflex for the sound of the bell. Do more reading here http://www.es.flinders.edu.au/~matto...lecture30.html If you do a search on google with a keyword Pavlov and dog you will find more interesting facts you could match with your fish... |
How smart are fish ?
"Wayne Sallee" wrote in message ... Pszemol wrote on 7/24/2006 6:08 PM: I do not think your argument with toaster oven was an originally yours... You are correct on that :-) Wayne Sallee Wayne's Pets A 400 pound Marlin has a brain about 1/2 teaspoon in size, not a whole lot of room for things like philosophy ( knowledge of death ) or creative thinking. A fish has no knowledge of death, that should be obvious to anyone. Evolution is not a theory, or at least not a theory under much controversy among the scientific community, the real theory that is kicked around is natural selection as the primary method of evolution. The fact that drug resistant bacteria evolve from a common source should be all anyone needs to see to move evolution from theory to simple fact. The fact that Chimps and Humans share about 98% of their DNA is a commonly tossed about fact that can confuse people, the fact of the matter is that almost all mammals share 98% of their DNA. The topic is much more complicated than simple reading of headlines or blind faith. There is no real reason for evolution and "god theory" to be mutually exclusive. Jerry I. - The Bible is my favorite work of fiction, hands down. |
How smart are fish ?
Wayne, Wayne...
When I was teaching biology in a CC, I knew better than to argue with lost causes. Just to give you an example of your lost cause here is a simple question; When and where the fish told you all those things? Now, here is a more complicated question; Who told fish that they are going to die, God? Fish are animals not humans like many people would like to think, you for example. They act as a response, they are able to learn a response to a stimuli, that is not intelligence. As I type here and hit the X key, for example, the computer writes that letter in a way that I can interpret it. Better yet, if I combine the X with the CTRL key, it will perfom a different task. Actually, if you use Word for example, it even completes the words for you or correct your spelling if instructed... Do you think my laptop is smart or just responding to a stimuli? lets see! iy "Wayne Sallee" wrote in message ... Inabón Yunes wrote on 7/23/2006 12:50 AM: Fish are not intelligent at all, they don't need to be, they have instincts instead of handling difficult decisions. Not true. Fish are able to learn who feeds them, and who doesn't. Able to learn what the fish food container looks like. Able to recognize the fridge when someone opens the door, and they will beg for food every time you open the fridge if they are used to getting frozen food. Able to learn to come to you when you call them. And able to learn many other things. I used to raise fighting chicken. They are territorial and will defend its domain to the death, literally. You see, they have no choice, they will respond to a stimuli in the same way over and over and over again. So, if they get a response "starter" the reaction will be the same. In the case of fish, well, they are a couple of steps down from birds in the evolutionary scale. They will be triggered by the reflection and will respond in the same way for ever regardless of self-injury. Remember, animals don't know death or that their wounds are not going to heal. Not true. Fish know when they are dying. I visited a friend with a similar issue with a fish but he liked the aggressive reaction of the fish. Well, I visited him two years later and the same fish was doing the same funny reaction after an illumination trigger. But don't worry, as soon as they acknowledge its new "neighbors" as harmless, they will go around and invest their energy in other things. Yes they will comeback again but will not stay there for long. In the other hand, if they associate the other fish with the pain they felt after the hit, lol, you better change backgrounds. iy Fish are a lot smarter than people give them credit for. Wayne Sallee Wayne's Pets |
How smart are fish ?
You have to stop smoking that thing Wayne, it is destroying the few neurons
left in your gray matter. iy "Wayne Sallee" wrote in message ... Inabón Yunes wrote on 7/23/2006 12:50 AM: In the case of fish, well, they are a couple of steps down from birds in the evolutionary scale. Evolution is a great for people that don't want to acknowledge the reality of the Creator. My computer evolved from a toaster oven. I tried to make some toast the other day, but even though the slots are of different sizes, I could not get a slice of bread in there. Obviously, an inferior evolutionary process. I'm sure it will become extinct soon. Get a chain, and cut every other link. Throw out all of the cut links. Take all of the intact links and arrange them so that they look pretty. You will then have a good working model of the theory of evolution. Actually, evolution is easy to prove. Simply gather some old bones from a variety of animals (your choice), and some human bones, and put them together so that they look half human, and then give it a name like Suzie. Scientist have recently discovered a new class of creatures down deep in the sea. They have classified them in the zoowacko group. They have 2 heads and 3 eyes on each head :-) Zigg and Zagg, Martians from Venus (they were born on Mars, but now live on Venus), did a study of the evolutionary order on earth. They decided to first doccument the order of evolvement of machines, since it was what most interested them. It was quite interesting reading, and learning how the different machines evolved from each other, like cars, trucks, microwaves, television sets, laptops, PDA's, watches, cranes, excetera. If you do a search on the internet you might be able to find their report :-) They still have a few missing links to figure out. After they get that study completely finished, they are going to do their next study on animals and it's evolvement on the great planet Earth. After both of those studies are completed and proven, they are to decide "which came first, the animals, or the machines?" Zigg and Zagg have pritty-much decided that the machines came first since they are more basic in construction than the animals, but that has yet to be proven. Wayne Sallee Wayne's Pets |
How smart are fish ?
Quick question Wayne!
Who said that God existed? Can you proof it? I can but I didn't need a bible for it... BTW, this is an aquarists forum, take your ignorant and foolish theories to another group full of people that believe in that. iy "Wayne Sallee" wrote in message ... Pszemol wrote on 7/24/2006 11:25 AM: Scientist have recently discovered a new class of creatures down deep in the sea. They have classified them in the zoowacko group. They have 2 heads and 3 eyes on each head :-) Oh, really ? I would like to read about them... Throw some details, please. Notice the "zowacko" name :-) Obviously there are no creatures with 2 heads and 3 eyes on each head. :-) There are deformities some times, but they are not normal. One thing that I find interesting, is that people that believe in evolution think that there is less similarities between people and animals than people that believe in creation. Wayne Sallee Wayne's Pets |
How smart are fish ?
He knows better but he put his learnings in a secluted place in his
bathroom. He has seen many time evolution in progress as you watch a larvae turning into a crab. Better yet, a one cell organism becoming a human everytime a woman gets pregnant. iy "Pszemol" wrote in message ... "Wayne Sallee" wrote in message ... LOL what's that supposed to mean??? I'm one of a kind :-) hehehe I do not think your argument with toaster oven was an originally yours... But anyway - is there any proof for evolution you would be willing to accet as "convincing" you the theory works ? Or you just totaly reject the theory on the basis of religion and your faith/believe in God ?? In the second case no proof, even the "in your face" one would change your mind and the further discussion is simply mute. Please let me know - we could then move on to more interesting stuff ;-) |
How smart are fish ?
"Wayne Sallee" wrote in message ...
Instinct: a largely inheritable and unalterable tendency of an organism to make a complex and specific response to environmental stimuli without involving reason. So someone decided to redefine the word? hehehe No, no redefine... I should say there are two kinds of reflexes: instincts (inheritable) and conditioned reflexes - these are the ones you "learn" during the life... Both kinds of reflexes have nothing to do with intelligence. I find it interesting that you are arguing in this direction after your earlier argument about the anemone fish and it's anemone. My argument before had nothing to do with evolution... Here I am reacting to your statements about creationism. |
How smart are fish ?
Wayne Sallee wrote in
: atomweaver wrote on 7/24/2006 3:25 PM: Balance snipped, since it can be read here; http://groups.google.com/group/rec.a...msg/86afab43d6 3180d 0?dmode=source How disappointingly unoriginal, Wayne... LOL what's that supposed to mean??? I'm one of a kind :-) hehehe Wayne Sallee Wayne's Pets Errmm. It means I'm really disappointed in how unoriginal your post was. I'll be the first to recognize and value your opinion on matters related to fishkeeping. One would think that you might learn from seeing the results of misguided information wrt reefkeeping, that posting from ignorance is never a Good Thing(tm). I guess not... you know almost nothing about ToE, but still post about it, without regard to the impact of your ignorance. I'm also disappointed in a lot of aspects of what you're posting about. Creationism is an aspect of overzealous conservatism. Its a petty hi-jacking of Christianity by small-minded folk, who undermine Christian faith by trivializing the Bible and its teachings with an overly-literal interpretation, in most instances for political, rather than spiritual, ends. What a lame duck to align yourself with, Wayne... I can't think of another single idea which so stupidly undermine both valid scientific education _and_ the very religion which it claims to be a proponent of. I'm one of a kind :-) hehehe Sadly, on this matter, you're all too common. Regards, R. David Zopf Atom Weaver |
How smart are fish ?
"Wayne Sallee" wrote in message ...
Pszemol wrote on 7/24/2006 6:08 PM: I do not think your argument with toaster oven was an originally yours... You are correct on that :-) Any response to my question ? Or you prefer to leave it unanswered ? |
How smart are fish ?
Pszemol wrote on 7/24/2006 5:48 PM:
Fish reaction to food is the first kind: they do not have to learn to eat. Fish reacting to the fridge opening or seeing a person next to the tank is the second kind - the same as the one Pavlov dogs developed an salivation reflex for the sound of the bell. Do more reading here http://www.es.flinders.edu.au/~matto...lecture30.html People do that, hence the phrase "mouth watering". Wayne Sallee Wayne's Pets |
How smart are fish ?
|
How smart are fish ?
Inabón Yunes wrote on 7/23/2006 12:50 AM:
I used to raise fighting chicken. They are territorial and will defend its domain to the death, literally. You see, they have no choice, they will respond to a stimuli in the same way over and over and over again. So, if they get a response "starter" the reaction will be the same. People will do that :-) And dogs have been raised for that, but dogs can't think for themselves can they :-) hehehe Wayne Sallee Wayne's Pets |
How smart are fish ?
atomweaver wrote on 7/25/2006 8:50 AM:
I'm also disappointed in a lot of aspects of what you're posting about. Creationism is an aspect of overzealous conservatism. Its a petty hi-jacking of Christianity by small-minded folk, who undermine Christian faith by trivializing the Bible and its teachings with an overly-literal interpretation, in most instances for political, rather than spiritual, ends. What a lame duck to align yourself with, Wayne... I can't think of another single idea which so stupidly undermine both valid scientific education _and_ the very religion which it claims to be a proponent of. LOL you crack me up. Wayne Sallee Wayne's Pets |
How smart are fish ?
What question?
Wayne Sallee Wayne's Pets Pszemol wrote on 7/25/2006 10:49 AM: "Wayne Sallee" wrote in message ... Pszemol wrote on 7/24/2006 6:08 PM: I do not think your argument with toaster oven was an originally yours... You are correct on that :-) Any response to my question ? Or you prefer to leave it unanswered ? |
How smart are fish ?
atomweaver wrote: Creationism is an aspect of overzealous conservatism. Its a petty hi-jacking of Christianity by small-minded folk, who undermine Christian faith by trivializing the Bible and its teachings with an overly-literal interpretation, in most instances for political, rather than spiritual, ends. I can't think of another single idea which so stupidly undermine both valid scientific education _and_ the very religion which it claims to be a proponent of. Stands Clapping well said, well put -- Ric Seyler Online Racing: RicSeyler GPL Handicap 6.35 http://www.pcola.gulf.net/~ricseyler remove –SPAM- from email address -------------------------------------- "Homer no function beer well without." - H.J. Simpson |
How smart are fish ?
RicSeyler wrote:
atomweaver wrote: Creationism is an aspect of overzealous conservatism. Its a petty hi-jacking of Christianity by small-minded folk, who undermine Christian faith by trivializing the Bible and its teachings with an overly-literal interpretation, in most instances for political, rather than spiritual, ends. I can't think of another single idea which so stupidly undermine both valid scientific education _and_ the very religion which it claims to be a proponent of. Stands Clapping well said, well put The marvel of biblical writing is that it presents highly abstract ideas in folkloric form which can be understood by the simplest minds. The more perceptive reader who is capable of reading more deeply can easily see through the myths to the more profound thoughts. It's not at all surprising if those who require literal definition deny there is an idea beneath it. It's to be expected. If the authors wrote in the philosophical style their subject called for, it would not be read by what is likely their target audience. rtk |
How smart are fish ?
No, not really well put at all. It's like a person with a
goldfish bowl telling a person with a successful reef tank that they are killing their corals. Wayne Sallee Wayne's Pets RicSeyler wrote on 7/25/2006 5:48 PM: atomweaver wrote: Creationism is an aspect of overzealous conservatism. Its a petty hi-jacking of Christianity by small-minded folk, who undermine Christian faith by trivializing the Bible and its teachings with an overly-literal interpretation, in most instances for political, rather than spiritual, ends. I can't think of another single idea which so stupidly undermine both valid scientific education _and_ the very religion which it claims to be a proponent of. Stands Clapping well said, well put |
How smart are fish ?
"Wayne Sallee" wrote in message ...
Pszemol wrote on 7/24/2006 5:48 PM: Fish reaction to food is the first kind: they do not have to learn to eat. Fish reacting to the fridge opening or seeing a person next to the tank is the second kind - the same as the one Pavlov dogs developed an salivation reflex for the sound of the bell. Do more reading here http://www.es.flinders.edu.au/~matto...lecture30.html People do that, hence the phrase "mouth watering". The point was that the dog reflex was the result of the BELL ringing. Not the result of seeing, smelling or eating the food... |
How smart are fish ?
"Wayne Sallee" wrote in message ...
Pszemol wrote on 7/24/2006 11:25 AM: the fact they are alone in the Universe and there is no God listening to their prayers :-) You don't even believe that. I really do. Do you want to talk about it ? |
How smart are fish ?
"Wayne Sallee" wrote in message ...
What question? The one you cut off the bottom of my previous message. |
How smart are fish ?
For God's sake Wayne, you are taking fire from everywhere dude!
You see, go to church to talk about this, is the only place they'll belief you blindfolded. Here, hehehe, well, you can't take anymore beating. When I first entered this NG I was under the impression that you knew a little about something, at this point I am not sure how you made it thru high school. You see, there is a whole world outthere that sees the bible for what it is worst. A bunch of papers translated from language to language that are most likely so transformed that it says the opposite of what they were intended. For example, the bible says that the Israelites were the chosen people, apparently they were the chosen ones alright but to be punish by God for eternity. For 5,000 years their people had done nothing but suffer. Even today a few descendants of David died at the hands of the descendants of Goliath. See, they were the chosen people to get screwed over millennia... Do you still belief LITERALLY in the bible? Evolution rules dude! Just watch a zygote, unicellular, transform in 9 months into a human being. iy "Wayne Sallee" wrote in message ... No, not really well put at all. It's like a person with a goldfish bowl telling a person with a successful reef tank that they are killing their corals. Wayne Sallee Wayne's Pets RicSeyler wrote on 7/25/2006 5:48 PM: atomweaver wrote: Creationism is an aspect of overzealous conservatism. Its a petty hi-jacking of Christianity by small-minded folk, who undermine Christian faith by trivializing the Bible and its teachings with an overly-literal interpretation, in most instances for political, rather than spiritual, ends. I can't think of another single idea which so stupidly undermine both valid scientific education _and_ the very religion which it claims to be a proponent of. Stands Clapping well said, well put |
How smart are fish ?
Wayne Sallee wrote in news:44C69E4D.6090902
@WayneSallee.com: No, not really well put at all. It's like a person with a goldfish bowl telling a person with a successful reef tank that they are killing their corals. Can you express your ideas on these subjects in any form other than analogy, anecdote, and allegory? Regardless, your opinion is in the minority (wrt both the science, and the religion). sectarian links http://www.butler.edu/clergyproject/clergy_project.htm http://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP961022.HTM And who among the religious embrace literal Creationism most fully? Two groups; a minority fraction of the evangelical right in the US, and some varieties of Islamic extremists... http://www.harunyahya.com/ Comfortable with your bedfellows, Wayne? The scientific community's support for evolution is universal (we wouldn't have the fields of modern medicine and genetics without it... Are you getting a flu vaccine this year, Wayne? If so, thanks for your support of ToE... your dollars and actions speak far more than your anecdotes do). I'll only leave a pair of links for that angle. I think the hundreds of thousands of peer-reviewed evolution-related articles in various scientific journals could also be considered support for ToE; http://nationalacademies.org/evolution/ and from my own field; http://www.chemistry.org/portal/a/c/...ture_pol.html? id=c373e904891eddda8f6a17245d830100 Regards, DaveZ |
How smart are fish ?
What question?
Wayne Sallee Wayne's Pets Pszemol wrote on 7/25/2006 9:37 PM: "Wayne Sallee" wrote in message ... What question? The one you cut off the bottom of my previous message. |
| All times are GMT +1. The time now is 09:19 PM. |
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FishKeepingBanter.com