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Denitrators
I was doing some searching and reading on various aquaria realted stuff
last night and came across these plans for a 'coil denitrator' http://saltaquarium.about.com/librar...itratornew.htm As you can see from the domain, it is in the salt water section of about.com. If you click on the thumbnail pictures of the plans, you can see each page of the article (I hate the layout of about.com BTW). Do these things "work?" That is, doesn't the nitrate have to turn into something?! What is the waste product of the de nitrifying bacteria? Wouldn't the TDS levels still rise? If so, doesn't this mean water changes are still vital? If you are the type of person that only changes water when the things you test for change (rise in nitrates, nitrites blah blah blah) then I can see this just disguising the need to do water changes. Am I making any sense? Of course I would never DREAM of slacking on my water changes (before MG says something) |
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Adam wrote:
Do these things "work?" That is, doesn't the nitrate have to turn into something? I don't know how they work, but the goal is to turn the nitrates (NO3) into gaseous nitrogen and oxygen. George Patterson Coffee is only a way of stealing time that should by rights belong to your slightly older self. |
Denitrators
"Adam" wrote in message ps.com...
Do these things "work?" That is, doesn't the nitrate have to turn into something?! What is the waste product of the de nitrifying bacteria? Yes, they do work, but having a properly working sand bed will do the same in a more biological way... I have more problems with phosphates than nitrates in my tanks. |
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Do these things "work?"
Why do you think you need one? That is, doesn't the nitrate have to turn into something?! Yes N2 and H2O via denitrifying bacteria present in your live rock. See: http://www.aquariumfish.com/aquarium...d=3793&search= What is the waste product of the de nitrifying bacteria? N2 and H2O. Wouldn't the TDS levels still rise? If so, doesn't this mean water changes are still vital? Contrary to popular marine aquarium lore, you DO NOT NEED to do partial water changes. My nitrites and nitrates are UNDETECTABLE using store bought LFS test kits. I have not done a water change in over a year (very close to two). If you are the type of person that only changes water when the things you test for change (rise in nitrates, nitrites blah blah blah) then I can see this just disguising the need to do water changes. Am I making any sense? "...disguising the need to do water changes." ...hmm If something causes your nitrites and nitrates to be very low than why would you NEED to do a water change? Just for fun? Of course I would never DREAM of slacking on my water changes (before MG says something) Stop following the herd! |
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I don't know how they work, but the goal is to turn the nitrates (NO3)
into gaseous nitrogen and oxygen. wrong. N2 and H2O 2NO3- + 12H+ -----(enzymatic)----- N2 + 6H2O George Patterson Coffee is only a way of stealing time that should by rights belong to your slightly older self. |
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"Stoutman" [email protected] wrote in message m...
I don't know how they work, but the goal is to turn the nitrates (NO3) into gaseous nitrogen and oxygen. wrong. N2 and H2O 2NO3- + 12H+ -----(enzymatic)----- N2 + 6H2O And how did you get 12H+ on your left side ? |
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"Stoutman" [email protected] wrote in message ...
Contrary to popular marine aquarium lore, you DO NOT NEED to do partial water changes. My nitrites and nitrates are UNDETECTABLE using store bought LFS test kits. I have not done a water change in over a year (very close to two). [...] "...disguising the need to do water changes." ...hmm If something causes your nitrites and nitrates to be very low than why would you NEED to do a water change? Just for fun? So you are saying that over time the water chemistry will not change in the closed system like a reef tank ? You know, there are much more different ions there beside NO3-... With partial water change you replenish ions used up by growing animals/plants in your tank. You also remove organic byproducts your skimmer left behind. |
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-- "Pszemol" wrote in message ... "Stoutman" [email protected] wrote in message m... I don't know how they work, but the goal is to turn the nitrates (NO3) into gaseous nitrogen and oxygen. wrong. N2 and H2O 2NO3- + 12H+ -----(enzymatic)----- N2 + 6H2O And how did you get 12H+ on your left side ? The above equation is the overall reduction of nitrate to nitrogen gas and water. It is an enzymatic reaction that involves the enzyme nitrate reductase (among others). The H+ that you are questioning are picked up from general acids from within the enzyme's active site (i.e. histidine residues). |
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[...]
"...disguising the need to do water changes." ...hmm If something causes your nitrites and nitrates to be very low than why would you NEED to do a water change? Just for fun? So you are saying that over time the water chemistry will not change in the closed system like a reef tank ? This is called setting up a "straw man". No. I am not saying this at all. You know, there are much more different ions there beside NO3-... Yes, I am aware. With partial water change you replenish ions used up by growing animals/plants in your tank. I add trace elements (Kent Marine Essential Elements) on a monthly basis. You also remove organic byproducts your skimmer left behind. Such as? |
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Stoutman wrote:
wrong. N2 and H2O Where's the hydrogen come from? You can split two NO3 molecules into one N2 and three O2 molecules. George Patterson Coffee is only a way of stealing time that should by rights belong to your slightly older self. |
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"Stoutman" [email protected] wrote in message m...
So you are saying that over time the water chemistry will not change in the closed system like a reef tank ? This is called setting up a "straw man". No. I am not saying this at all. You were questioning the reason to change water based on nitrates... You know, there are much more different ions there beside NO3-... Yes, I am aware. Then you are probably aware also, that 80% of their levels you cannot measure at home acuratelly. With partial water change you replenish ions used up by growing animals/plants in your tank. I add trace elements (Kent Marine Essential Elements) on a monthly basis. Each element is used up in a different speed, but you dump all of them on a monthly basis regardless if you need it or not. That will lead over time to chemical imbalance and your tank water will be far, far away from the content of natural sea water compared to the water mixed from the fresh salt mix. You also remove organic byproducts your skimmer left behind. Such as? All these which make your water smell and look yellow. Corals, other invertebrates, fish and plants constantly release many substances to the water which accumulate in the closed system like an aquarium. You are not able to measure them or detect them in home situation... Changing water refreshes the water and brings it back to its original ionic combination... Would you be fine if your house was perfectly sealed from the outside air and you just reduce amount of CO2 and add oxygen on regular basis but would not exchange air for years? How do you think your house would smell ? :-)) |
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Adam wrote:
Do these things "work?" That is, doesn't the nitrate have to turn into something?! What is the waste product of the de nitrifying bacteria? A web search turns up several articles. Basically, the denitrator is a bacterial filter that contains cultures of bacteria that eat oxygen. These bacteria remove the oxygen from the NO3, producing free nitrogen as a byproduct. See http://www.aquaworldaquarium.com/Den...tructions.html George Patterson Coffee is only a way of stealing time that should by rights belong to your slightly older self. |
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Stoutman wrote on 9/15/2006 9:52 PM:
Contrary to popular marine aquarium lore, you DO NOT NEED to do partial water changes. My nitrites and nitrates are UNDETECTABLE using store bought LFS test kits. I have not done a water change in over a year (very close to two). LOL this is a reef newsgroup, not a fish only newsgroup. Wayne Sallee Wayne's Pets |
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Pszemol wrote on 9/16/2006 9:20 AM: "Stoutman" [email protected] wrote in message m... So you are saying that over time the water chemistry will not change in the closed system like a reef tank ? This is called setting up a "straw man". No. I am not saying this at all. You were questioning the reason to change water based on nitrates... You know, there are much more different ions there beside NO3-... Yes, I am aware. Then you are probably aware also, that 80% of their levels you cannot measure at home acuratelly. With partial water change you replenish ions used up by growing animals/plants in your tank. I add trace elements (Kent Marine Essential Elements) on a monthly basis. Each element is used up in a different speed, but you dump all of them on a monthly basis regardless if you need it or not. That will lead over time to chemical imbalance and your tank water will be far, far away from the content of natural sea water compared to the water mixed from the fresh salt mix. You also remove organic byproducts your skimmer left behind. Such as? All these which make your water smell and look yellow. Corals, other invertebrates, fish and plants constantly release many substances to the water which accumulate in the closed system like an aquarium. You are not able to measure them or detect them in home situation... Changing water refreshes the water and brings it back to its original ionic combination... Would you be fine if your house was perfectly sealed from the outside air and you just reduce amount of CO2 and add oxygen on regular basis but would not exchange air for years? How do you think your house would smell ? :-)) hehehe yep, and while he's at it, Stoutman can do away with the toilet, just use a can, and stop taking showers :-) Wayne Sallee Wayne's Pets |
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wrong. N2 and H2O
Where's the hydrogen come from? See my response to Pszemol. You can split two NO3 molecules into one N2 and three O2 molecules. Who/what can? The NO3 is broken down enzymatically. The enzyme(s) do not split NO3 into N2 and O2. George Patterson Coffee is only a way of stealing time that should by rights belong to your slightly older self. |
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-- You were questioning the reason to change water based on nitrates... I am not questioning anything, I am answering Adam's (the OP) question. See above in the thread. You know, there are much more different ions there beside NO3-... Yes, I am aware. Then you are probably aware also, that 80% of their levels you cannot measure at home acuratelly. 80% of what levels? Can you be more specific? Doesn't how accurate you need to be depend on the ion you are referring to? With partial water change you replenish ions used up by growing animals/plants in your tank. I add trace elements (Kent Marine Essential Elements) on a monthly basis. Each element is used up in a different speed, but you dump all of them on a monthly basis regardless if you need it or not. How do you replenish your trace elements? Partial water change? When you do your partial water change you are removing some percentage of water (15-20%?) and adding artificial sea salt (usually contains trace elements). How do you know your tank needs it (trace elements)? That will lead over time to chemical imbalance and your tank water will be far, far away from the content of natural sea water compared to the water mixed from the fresh salt mix. You are FAR MORE likely to cause a chemical imbalance by replacing a percentage (15-20%?) of your aquarium water with home made sea water than you are by doing no water change. You also remove organic byproducts your skimmer left behind. Such as? All these which make your water smell and look yellow. Corals, other invertebrates, fish and plants constantly release many substances to the water which accumulate in the closed system like an aquarium. My skimmer runs 24hrs a day. The organic compounds it doesn't remove on the first pass will more than likely be removed on the second, third, fourth or fifth, etc. pass. You are not able to measure them or detect them in home situation... Agreed. Therefore, I have NO reason to question my skimmers effectiveness. I can only go by the health/appearance of my tank mates. They are doing fine. All is well. My water is not yellow and it does not smell. Changing water refreshes the water and brings it back to its original ionic combination... The only way YOU would "bring it back to its original" condition is if you changed 100% of your water. Is this what you are doing? If this is what you are doing you are doing more harm than good. Would you be fine if your house was perfectly sealed from the outside air and you just reduce amount of CO2 and add oxygen on regular basis but would not exchange air for years? Another straw man. How do you think your house would smell ? :-)) I do not have microorganisms that eat and decompose my excrements, my aquarium inhabitants do. |
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LOL this is a reef newsgroup, not a fish only newsgroup.
That's right, I have a FOWLR tank, nevertheless, my comments are still applicable. |
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A web search turns up several articles. Basically, the denitrator is a
bacterial filter that contains cultures of bacteria that eat oxygen. These bacteria remove the oxygen from the NO3, producing free nitrogen as a byproduct. So very wrong, but so close. The denitrator sets up an anaerobic environment (oxygen depleted) for the bacteria to thrive that break down NO3-, it's called denitrification. These anaerobic bacteria contain enzymes that break down NO3- into N2 and H2O. See http://www.aquaworldaquarium.com/Den...tructions.html George Patterson Coffee is only a way of stealing time that should by rights belong to your slightly older self. |
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NO3 is not split into N2 and O2 it is broken down enzymatically into N2 and
H2O. |
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Stoutman wrote on 9/16/2006 11:19 AM: A web search turns up several articles. Basically, the denitrator is a bacterial filter that contains cultures of bacteria that eat oxygen. These bacteria remove the oxygen from the NO3, producing free nitrogen as a byproduct. So very wrong, but so close. The denitrator sets up an anaerobic environment (oxygen depleted) for the bacteria to thrive that break down NO3-, it's called denitrification. These anaerobic bacteria contain enzymes that break down NO3- into N2 and H2O. See http://www.aquaworldaquarium.com/Den...tructions.html George Patterson Coffee is only a way of stealing time that should by rights belong to your slightly older self. No, he was right. The bacteria consume oxygen, thus reducing nitrate to nitrogen. A lot of other things get reduced of oxygen as well. Wayne Sallee Wayne's Pets |
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You only have half of the picture :-)
hehehe Wayne Sallee Wayne's Pets Stoutman wrote on 9/16/2006 11:13 AM: LOL this is a reef newsgroup, not a fish only newsgroup. That's right, I have a FOWLR tank, nevertheless, my comments are still applicable. |
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No, he was right. The bacteria consume oxygen, thus reducing nitrate to nitrogen. A lot of other things get reduced of oxygen as well. No he is wrong. O2 is NOT produced. The oxygen's that are removed from NO2- end up as H2O. NOT free O2. It is a VERY complex series of events. Never is O2 produced along the way. Look into denitrification. It is an ENZYMATIC process in anaerobic bacteria involving more than one enzyme. SEE: http://www.reefscapes.net/articles/a...ogencycle.html (Look at the part that refers to denitrification and anaerobic bacteria) |
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I meant to write oxygen's that are removed from NO3- end up as H2O.
It actually goes NO3---NO2----N2 + H2O |
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In the post that you quoted, he did not say that oxygen
was produced, yet you said that he was wrong, and now you are trying to prove yourself right by adding stuff that was not in the post that you quoted. Wayne Sallee Wayne's Pets Stoutman wrote on 9/16/2006 12:20 PM: No, he was right. The bacteria consume oxygen, thus reducing nitrate to nitrogen. A lot of other things get reduced of oxygen as well. No he is wrong. O2 is NOT produced. The oxygen's that are removed from NO2- end up as H2O. NOT free O2. It is a VERY complex series of events. Never is O2 produced along the way. Look into denitrification. It is an ENZYMATIC process in anaerobic bacteria involving more than one enzyme. SEE: http://www.reefscapes.net/articles/a...ogencycle.html (Look at the part that refers to denitrification and anaerobic bacteria) |
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Stoutman wrote on 9/16/2006 12:20 PM:
It is a VERY complex series of events. Actually it's very simple. Just as we consume oxygen, so do many types of bacteria. When oxygen levels get low, bacteria start taking oxygen away from compounds in the water such as nitrate, nitrite, sulfate, and many other compounds. Wayne Sallee Wayne's Pets |
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Stoutman wrote:
NO3 is not split into N2 and O2 it is broken down enzymatically into N2 and H2O. No, it's not. The oxygen is removed by bacteria, releasing the nitrogen. George Patterson Coffee is only a way of stealing time that should by rights belong to your slightly older self. |
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Stoutman wrote:
I meant to write oxygen's that are removed from NO3- end up as H2O. It actually goes NO3---NO2----N2 + H2O No, it doesn't. You are basically arguing that you start out with NO3 and H2O and it goes 2NO3 & 2H2O ---- 2NO2 & 2H2 ---- 2N01 & 2H2 ---- N2 & 2H2O. The water molecules are never broken up. They just pass through when the system is functioning properly. When water molecules do get stripped of their oxygen, the hydrogen usually combines with sulfur to produce hydrogen sulphide. George Patterson Coffee is only a way of stealing time that should by rights belong to your slightly older self. |
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Wayne Sallee wrote in news:3kWOg.12966$xQ1.5621
@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net: Stoutman wrote on 9/16/2006 12:20 PM: It is a VERY complex series of events. Actually it's very simple. Just as we consume oxygen, so do many types of bacteria. When oxygen levels get low, bacteria start taking oxygen away from compounds in the water such as nitrate, nitrite, sulfate, and many other compounds. Wayne Sallee Wayne's Pets In order for the NO3 to give us N2 and H2O, wouldn't you need free H+ ions roaming around? Free hydrogen reacts pretty strongly with O2 if I remember my chemistry correctly. Or does the free O-- released from the NO3 pull the 2 H+ ions off the H2O and release the O2 molecule? But why would the H+ ions do that? It would be swapping one O2 molecule for another O2. And H2O is a very stable molecule. Don't think H2O is produced by in the de-nitration process. Mark |
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No, it doesn't. You are basically arguing that you start out with NO3 and H2O and it goes No I am not arguing that. 2NO3 & 2H2O ---- 2NO2 & 2H2 ---- 2N01 & 2H2 ---- N2 & 2H2O. The water molecules are never broken up. Very good! When did I write water molecules were broken up? They just pass through when the system is functioning properly. Still wrong. Water is produced here. 2NO3 + 12H+ ---- N2 + 6H2O This is an enzymatic reaction involving nitrate reductase. The process is called DENITRIFICATION. O2 is NOT produced! Read for yourself: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denitrification http://www.reefscapes.net/articles/a...ogencycle.html When water molecules do get stripped of their oxygen, the hydrogen usually combines with sulfur to produce hydrogen sulphide. What? When did I mention water molecules getting stripped of oxygens? George Patterson Coffee is only a way of stealing time that should by rights belong to your slightly older self. |
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In the post that you quoted, he did not say that oxygen was produced Neither did I. When did I write O2 was produced? Read this again: NO3 goes to N2 and H2O. No O2 is produced in this process (denitrification). , yet you said that he was wrong, and now you are trying to prove yourself right by adding stuff that was not in the post that you quoted. I am supporting my argument that I had from the very beginning by providing a web site link as support. Wayne reread my posts. I said from the VERY beginning that NO3 goes to H2O and N2. Never did I write O2 was produced. You wrote I was wrong from the beginning. Who do you think is right now Wayne? You must feel pretty silly? :) Hehehehe. Lol lol lol. lol |
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"Stoutman" [email protected] wrote in message ...
LOL this is a reef newsgroup, not a fish only newsgroup. That's right, I have a FOWLR tank, nevertheless, my comments are still applicable. Oh, now it is clear. This group is about REEF tanks. Let's go back to the subject when you will have a reef tank. |
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NO3 is not split into N2 and O2 it is broken down enzymatically into N2
and H2O. No, it's not. The oxygen is removed by bacteria, releasing the nitrogen. The oxygens are removed from NO3- and released to the 'system' in the form of H2O not O2 as you stated earlier. This should give you a clue: Why would anaerobic bacteria that thrive in low O2 environments produce O2? Don't you think this would be counter productive to there survival? I will write this again for the umpteen time. This process is called DENITRIFICATION. It is an enzymatic process that converts NO3- into H2O and N2 (O2 is NOT produced). The process involves anaerobic bacteria that contain the enzyme nitrate reductase (among others involved in denitrification). O2 is NOT produced. |
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No, it's not. The oxygen is removed by bacteria, releasing the nitrogen.
What do you think happens to the oxygen that is "removed" by the bacteria? George Patterson Coffee is only a way of stealing time that should by rights belong to your slightly older self. |
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In the post that you quoted, he did not say that oxygen was produced, yet you said that he was wrong, and now you are trying to prove yourself right by adding stuff that was not in the post that you quoted. Patterson wrote this very early on:"I don't know how they work, but the goal is to turn the nitrates (NO3) into gaseous nitrogen and oxygen." Gaseous nitrogen and oxygen to 'me' mean O2 and N2. Do you STILL think he is right? I will write it again so there is no confusion: 2NO3- + 12H+ --- 6H2O and N2 If you are confused where the H+ come from let me know. |
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In order for the NO3 to give us N2 and H2O, wouldn't you need free H+ ions roaming around? No. This process (denitrification) happens at an enzymatic/cellular (anaerobic bacteria) level. The H+ come from general acids (protonated amino acid residues, i.e. histidines) within the enzyme(s) involved. Free hydrogen reacts pretty strongly with O2 if I remember my chemistry correctly. Or does the free O-- released from the NO3 pull the 2 H+ ions off the H2O and release the O2 molecule? But why would the H+ ions do that? Actually at the enzymatic level (nitrate reductase) it is OH- that forms (not O--) and this quickly picks up a proton (H+) from neighboring general acids to produce H2O. |
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LOL you keep turning your statements around, and when you
quote me, you deliberately leave off important parts of the previous post in your quote to cover your tracks. Wayne Sallee Wayne's Pets Stoutman wrote on 9/16/2006 4:31 PM: In the post that you quoted, he did not say that oxygen was produced Neither did I. When did I write O2 was produced? Read this again: NO3 goes to N2 and H2O. No O2 is produced in this process (denitrification). , yet you said that he was wrong, and now you are trying to prove yourself right by adding stuff that was not in the post that you quoted. I am supporting my argument that I had from the very beginning by providing a web site link as support. Wayne reread my posts. I said from the VERY beginning that NO3 goes to H2O and N2. Never did I write O2 was produced. You wrote I was wrong from the beginning. Who do you think is right now Wayne? You must feel pretty silly? :) Hehehehe. Lol lol lol. lol |
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Wayne what statements of MINE have I turned around?
Give one. |
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Yes o2 is not produced, but even when he reposted
correctly you keep saying that he is wrong, when he corrected himself by removing the o2 part, yet you still claim he is wrong, and then when you are questioned about it, you keep going back to the o2 thing, even though his corrected post did not mention o2. Wayne Sallee Wayne's Pets Stoutman wrote on 9/16/2006 4:43 PM: NO3 is not split into N2 and O2 it is broken down enzymatically into N2 and H2O. No, it's not. The oxygen is removed by bacteria, releasing the nitrogen. The oxygens are removed from NO3- and released to the 'system' in the form of H2O not O2 as you stated earlier. This should give you a clue: Why would anaerobic bacteria that thrive in low O2 environments produce O2? Don't you think this would be counter productive to there survival? I will write this again for the umpteen time. This process is called DENITRIFICATION. It is an enzymatic process that converts NO3- into H2O and N2 (O2 is NOT produced). The process involves anaerobic bacteria that contain the enzyme nitrate reductase (among others involved in denitrification). O2 is NOT produced. |
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