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-   -   Coral beauty question (http://www.fishkeepingbanter.com/showthread.php?t=66821)

Gill Passman July 4th 07 04:22 PM

Coral beauty question
 
I have my heart set on getting a Coral Beauty for my new tank (350L
corner tank). Current occupants are 6 green chromis and 2 benggai
cardinals. I have read that it is not a good idea to mix angel species
in a tank but one LFS has suggested that it could be possible providing
I go for dissimilar colours. What does everyone else think about this?

TIA
Gill

Wayne Sallee July 4th 07 06:02 PM

Coral beauty question
 
Go with dissimilar types and add them both at the
same time.

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets


Gill Passman wrote on 7/4/2007 11:22 AM:
I have my heart set on getting a Coral Beauty for my new tank (350L
corner tank). Current occupants are 6 green chromis and 2 benggai
cardinals. I have read that it is not a good idea to mix angel species
in a tank but one LFS has suggested that it could be possible providing
I go for dissimilar colours. What does everyone else think about this?

TIA
Gill


A. Paul Ing July 4th 07 06:03 PM

Coral beauty question http://groups.google.co.uk/group/reclaimourfishgroups/topics
 
http://groups.google.co.uk/group/rec...hgroups/topics


bwaaahahahahahhaahahahaha yea do it do it do it
Assinine bitch! The infamous hate mongor and propagator of hate on the
uSENET GILL PASSMAN.

http://groups.google.co.uk/group/rec...hgroups/topics


On Wed, 04 Jul 2007 16:22:30 +0100, Gill Passman
wrote:
http://groups.google.co.uk/group/rec...hgroups/topics
I have my heart set on getting a Coral Beauty for my new tank (350L
corner tank). Current occupants are 6 green chromis and 2 benggai
cardinals. I have read that it is not a good idea to mix angel species
in a tank but one LFS has suggested that it could be possible providing
I go for dissimilar colours. What does everyone else think about this?

TIA
Gill
http://groups.google.co.uk/group/rec...hgroups/topics

Gill Passman July 4th 07 06:15 PM

Coral beauty question
 
Wayne Sallee wrote:
Go with dissimilar types and add them both at the same time.

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets



Anything that you would recommend/have tried?

Thanks
Gill

[email protected] July 4th 07 06:56 PM

Please remove alt.vampyres ( Coral beauty question http://groups.google.co.uk/group/reclaimourfishgroups/topics
 
Please remove alt.vampyres from replies to this spammed thread. We
would appreciate being able to use our newsgroup again for ontopic
discussion. Thank you.


A. Paul Ing July 4th 07 07:30 PM

Coral beauty question
 
Swallow like yur good at, That ought to work just fine. Whjat did you
mean when yu called old Wayne in those emails about him and Kurt and
Pszemol ..some kind of face.....I assume thats yet another UK term
that is derogatory huh.....How did you ever pull off thhose group
floods and blame it all on CArol. Guess you sucked a lot of cyber dick
huh..unlike RON and JAN who sucked the real dick

On Wed, 04 Jul 2007 18:15:45 +0100, Gill Passman
wrote:

Wayne Sallee wrote:
Go with dissimilar types and add them both at the same time.

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets



Anything that you would recommend/have tried?

Thanks
Gill


Wayne Sallee July 4th 07 07:46 PM

Coral beauty question
 
A flame and a bycolor.

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets


Gill Passman wrote on 7/4/2007 1:15 PM:
Wayne Sallee wrote:
Go with dissimilar types and add them both at the same time.

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets



Anything that you would recommend/have tried?

Thanks
Gill


Wayne Sallee July 4th 07 07:51 PM

Coral beauty question
 
Or a coral beauty and a bycolor.

But not a coral beauty and a flame, not that it
would not work, but it would be less likely to work.

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets


Wayne Sallee wrote on 7/4/2007 2:46 PM:
A flame and a bycolor.

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets


Gill Passman wrote on 7/4/2007 1:15 PM:
Wayne Sallee wrote:
Go with dissimilar types and add them both at the same time.

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets



Anything that you would recommend/have tried?

Thanks
Gill


Wayne Sallee July 4th 07 07:56 PM

Coral beauty question
 
At the store, I did a combination in the display
tank of a coral beauty, bycolor, and flame. It
worked well except that the damsels chased them out
of the tank.

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets


Wayne Sallee wrote on 7/4/2007 2:51 PM:
Or a coral beauty and a bycolor.

But not a coral beauty and a flame, not that it would not work, but it
would be less likely to work.

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets


Wayne Sallee wrote on 7/4/2007 2:46 PM:
A flame and a bycolor.

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets


Gill Passman wrote on 7/4/2007 1:15 PM:
Wayne Sallee wrote:
Go with dissimilar types and add them both at the same time.

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets



Anything that you would recommend/have tried?

Thanks
Gill


Art Deco July 4th 07 07:57 PM

Please remove alt.vampyres ( Coral beauty question http://groups.google.co.uk/group/reclaimourfishgroups/topics
 
wrote:

Please remove alt.vampyres from replies to this spammed thread. We
would appreciate being able to use our newsgroup again for ontopic
discussion. Thank you.


What thread is "this spammed thread"? You've snecked all the content.

--
Official Overseer of Kooks and Saucerheads for alt.astronomy
Trainer and leash holder of:
Honest "Clockbrain" John
nightbat "fro0tbat" of alt.astronomy
http://www.caballista.org/auk/kookle.php?search=deco

"You really are one of the litsiest people I know, Mr. Deco."
--Kali, quoted endlessly by David Tholen as evidence of "something"

Gill Passman July 4th 07 08:16 PM

Coral beauty question
 
Wayne Sallee wrote:
At the store, I did a combination in the display tank of a coral beauty,
bycolor, and flame. It worked well except that the damsels chased them
out of the tank.

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets


At one of the places I go to they have a mix of angels but the tank is a
lot bigger than mine.....


Wayne Sallee wrote on 7/4/2007 2:51 PM:

Or a coral beauty and a bycolor.

But not a coral beauty and a flame, not that it would not work, but it
would be less likely to work.


I think that I will avoid that combination (coral beauty/flame) although
they are both beautiful fish but I don't fancy tearing down the rockwork
if it doesn't work. The bi-colour looks a nice fish....I'll take a look
next time I'm out shopping and see if there are any locally.

Thanks
Gill

A. Paul Ing July 4th 07 08:26 PM

Coral beauty question
 
Your an illityerate **** Wayne. NO wonder yu went out of business. Its
a BI-COLOR not BYCOLOR. ITS bi bi bi just like you and your wife
Pszemol a BI couple.....BI BI BI BI BI BI BI BI BI BI.you dumbass!

On Wed, 04 Jul 2007 14:46:56 -0400, Wayne Sallee
wrote:

A flame and a bycolor.

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets


Gill Passman wrote on 7/4/2007 1:15 PM:
Wayne Sallee wrote:
Go with dissimilar types and add them both at the same time.

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets



Anything that you would recommend/have tried?

Thanks
Gill


A. Paul Ing July 4th 07 08:27 PM

Please remove alt.vampyres ( Coral beauty question http://groups.google.co.uk/group/reclaimourfishgroups/topics
 


**** you art deco...no need to have their crap posted all over again
now is there? Go look it up you lazy twit!

On Wed, 04 Jul 2007 12:57:58 -0600, Art Deco
wrote:

wrote:

Please remove alt.vampyres from replies to this spammed thread. We
would appreciate being able to use our newsgroup again for ontopic
discussion. Thank you.

What thread is "this spammed thread"? You've snecked all the content.


RubenD July 4th 07 08:43 PM

Coral beauty question
 
I was successful with a flame and a coral beauty for many months.
Unfortunately, I didn't have a chiller then and heat wipe them out.

Then again, I have a 125 G.

Good Luck


"Wayne Sallee" wrote in message
...
At the store, I did a combination in the display
tank of a coral beauty, bycolor, and flame. It
worked well except that the damsels chased them out
of the tank.

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets


Wayne Sallee wrote on 7/4/2007 2:51 PM:
Or a coral beauty and a bycolor.

But not a coral beauty and a flame, not that it would not work, but it
would be less likely to work.

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets


Wayne Sallee wrote on 7/4/2007 2:46 PM:
A flame and a bycolor.

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets


Gill Passman wrote on 7/4/2007 1:15 PM:
Wayne Sallee wrote:
Go with dissimilar types and add them both at the same time.

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets



Anything that you would recommend/have tried?

Thanks
Gill




RubenD July 4th 07 09:12 PM

Coral beauty question
 
Just wondering why did you pick the cardinal and the chromis.

A yellow tang would've been a great colorful option, along with nemo (clown
fish) and dory (blue tang).

I mean, for the cost of having a SW tank to end up with $2 fish. Might as
well gotten a FW with some fw angels or some
ciclids. I say that because I went SW for the colors and variety. A whole
new world.

Just a comment, after all, it's your tank..=)


Ruben

Gill Passman wrote on 7/4/2007 11:22 AM:
I have my heart set on getting a Coral Beauty for my new tank (350L
corner tank). Current occupants are 6 green chromis and 2 benggai
cardinals. I have read that it is not a good idea to mix angel species
in a tank but one LFS has suggested that it could be possible providing
I go for dissimilar colours. What does everyone else think about this?

TIA
Gill




Gill Passman July 4th 07 09:18 PM

Coral beauty question
 
RubenD wrote:
I was successful with a flame and a coral beauty for many months.
Unfortunately, I didn't have a chiller then and heat wipe them out.

Then again, I have a 125 G.

Good Luck


350L converts to 92.46 US galls but with it being a corner tank it looks
smaller than the conventional rectangular shape.

I don't have a chiller either but it does sit in an airconned room.

Gill

Wayne Sallee July 4th 07 09:26 PM

Coral beauty question
 
Yea tank size makes a difference :-)

Be sure to add them both at the same time.

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets


Gill Passman wrote on 7/4/2007 3:16 PM:
Wayne Sallee wrote:
At the store, I did a combination in the display tank of a coral
beauty, bycolor, and flame. It worked well except that the damsels
chased them out of the tank.

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets


At one of the places I go to they have a mix of angels but the tank is a
lot bigger than mine.....


Wayne Sallee wrote on 7/4/2007 2:51 PM:

Or a coral beauty and a bycolor.

But not a coral beauty and a flame, not that it would not work, but
it would be less likely to work.


I think that I will avoid that combination (coral beauty/flame) although
they are both beautiful fish but I don't fancy tearing down the rockwork
if it doesn't work. The bi-colour looks a nice fish....I'll take a look
next time I'm out shopping and see if there are any locally.

Thanks
Gill


Gill Passman July 4th 07 09:44 PM

Coral beauty question
 
RubenD wrote:
Just wondering why did you pick the cardinal and the chromis.

A yellow tang would've been a great colorful option, along with nemo (clown
fish) and dory (blue tang).

I mean, for the cost of having a SW tank to end up with $2 fish. Might as
well gotten a FW with some fw angels or some
ciclids. I say that because I went SW for the colors and variety. A whole
new world.

Just a comment, after all, it's your tank..=)


Ruben



Well I wish it was $2 of fish - lol. The chromis I liked the look of
even though relatively cheap - £20 for the 6 of them - they were on
offer. The banggai's cost £50 for the pair and although predominately
black and white/cream are great looking fish - we call them the punks
because of their finnage. Here's a link to an article on them, which has
a pic:-

http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.u....php?news=1297

A yellow tang and coral beauty are on the list - this will set me back
around £60. I particularly am looking for herbivores/omnivores as the
tank is looking more and more like a planted tank daily - I got a lot of
higher level algae come in on the LR when I set it up. I'm also looking
at a Royal Gamma (not a false) but am still researching other fish for
the tank - I'd like a Mandarin but am waiting for the tank to mature
more (it's only been running since mid-April). I also need to get some
more inverts and corals - I'm looking at getting some Sand sifting star
fish, more snails, hermits etc. The tank has the usual suspects Coral
wise but the more exotic are going to set me back between £30-40 per
frag. UK prices force a slow stocking of the tank. I've ruled out a
"Dory" as I think that the tank is too small and I have no space for a
larger reef tank unless I convert my largest freshwater (6 foot). I also
have to spread my budget across 7 tanks of which this is only one and a
pond project.

I already have a pair of Clowns in a 15 gall Nano reef. I don't want to
add any more clowns to the new tank in case I decide to move the clowns
from the Nano - I keep prevaricating about doing it - yes, the Nano is
hard to keep stable but it has an awful lot of creatures in there that
would need to move as well. I've pretty much moved most of the corals
into the big tank which as I see it were the greatest issue. The tank
will probably be a FOWLR with the Clowns - the exception being the Xenia
that I have by the shedload....

Anyway, part of the fun IMO is the setting up of the tank and going out
and researching the additions.....coming from a freshwater background
I'm also lairy of adding too many fish at once just in case I get an
ammonia/nitrite spike......

I will be off shopping either today or tomorrow for the angels and the
yellow tang

Gill

A. Paul Ing July 4th 07 10:03 PM

Coral beauty question
 


Because she follows impulse buying instead of realistic buys. She also
follows this ****ed up forums advice too much as well...duh! What do
yu expect for a super mod in ron schomperts moderated pond group that
do not have ****ing clue!

On Wed, 4 Jul 2007 13:12:22 -0700, "RubenD"
wrote:

Just wondering why did you pick the cardinal and the chromis.

A yellow tang would've been a great colorful option, along with nemo (clown
fish) and dory (blue tang).

I mean, for the cost of having a SW tank to end up with $2 fish. Might as
well gotten a FW with some fw angels or some
ciclids. I say that because I went SW for the colors and variety. A whole
new world.

Just a comment, after all, it's your tank..=)


Ruben

Gill Passman wrote on 7/4/2007 11:22 AM:
I have my heart set on getting a Coral Beauty for my new tank (350L
corner tank). Current occupants are 6 green chromis and 2 benggai
cardinals. I have read that it is not a good idea to mix angel species
in a tank but one LFS has suggested that it could be possible providing
I go for dissimilar colours. What does everyone else think about this?

TIA
Gill



George Patterson July 5th 07 04:24 AM

Coral beauty question
 
Gill Passman wrote:

I don't have a chiller either but it does sit in an airconned room.


I have read that AC is sufficient as long as the tank stays below 80.

George Patterson
If you torture the data long enough, eventually it will confess
to anything.

George Patterson July 5th 07 04:26 AM

Please remove alt.vampyres ( Coral beauty question http://groups.google.co.uk/group/reclaimourfishgroups/topics
 
Art Deco wrote:
wrote:

Please remove alt.vampyres from replies to this spammed thread. We
would appreciate being able to use our newsgroup again for ontopic
discussion. Thank you.


What thread is "this spammed thread"? You've snecked all the content.


As he should. Filters can trap almost anything, as long as people don't quote
garbage posts when they reply.

George Patterson
If you torture the data long enough, eventually it will confess
to anything.

bobandcarole[_9_] July 5th 07 01:21 PM

Please remove alt.vampyres ( Coral beauty question http://groups.google.co.uk/group/reclaimourfishgroups/topics
 
On Jul 4, 11:26?pm, George Patterson wrote:
Art Deco wrote:
wrote:


Please remove alt.vampyres from replies to this spammed thread. We
would appreciate being able to use our newsgroup again for ontopic
discussion. Thank you.


What thread is "this spammed thread"? You've snecked all the content.


Here it is...

tp://groups.google.co.uk/group/reclaimourfishgroups/topics

bwaaahahahahahhaahahahaha yea do it do it do it
Assinine bitch! The infamous hate mongor and propagator of hate on
the
uSENET GILL PASSMAN.


http://groups.google.co.uk/group/rec...hgroups/topics


On Wed, 04 Jul 2007 16:22:30 +0100, Gill Passman


wrote:


http://groups.google.co.uk/group/rec...hgroups/topics
I have my heart set on getting a Coral Beauty for my new tank
(350L
corner tank). Current occupants are 6 green chromis and 2 benggai
cardinals. I have read that it is not a good idea to mix angel
species
in a tank but one LFS has suggested that it could be possible
providing
I go for dissimilar colours. What does everyone else think about
this?

TIA
Gill
http://groups.google.co.uk/group/rec...hgroups/topics


As he should. Filters can trap almost anything, as long as people don't quote
garbage posts when they reply.

George Patterson
If you torture the data long enough, eventually it will confess
to anything.




A. Paul Ing July 5th 07 02:54 PM

Please remove alt.vampyres ( Coral beauty question http://groups.google.co.uk/group/reclaimourfishgroups/topics
 
On Thu, 05 Jul 2007 03:26:40 GMT, George Patterson
wrote:

Art Deco wrote:
wrote:

Please remove alt.vampyres from replies to this spammed thread. We
would appreciate being able to use our newsgroup again for ontopic
discussion. Thank you.

What thread is "this spammed thread"? You've snecked all the content.

As he should. Filters can trap almost anything, as long as people don't quote
garbage posts when they reply.

George Patterson
If you torture the data long enough, eventually it will confess
to anything.
George .....your a ****ing idiot, you know that?

A. Paul Ing July 5th 07 02:56 PM

Coral beauty question
 
So you really have no actual hands on experieince. Only hands on
experieience you have George is on Waynes dick!On Thu, 05 Jul 2007
03:24:41 GMT, George Patterson wrote:

Gill Passman wrote:

I don't have a chiller either but it does sit in an airconned room.

I have read that AC is sufficient as long as the tank stays below 80.

George Patterson
If you torture the data long enough, eventually it will confess
to anything.


RubenD July 5th 07 09:26 PM

Coral beauty question
 
I guess fish are most expensive where you live.

You can buy a Yellow tang on the LFS for about $29.

Check www.sal****erfish.com and they are not the cheapest out there.

Sometimes you also find decent deals on ebay.

I guess your only option is to move to USA, lol


Ruben


"Gill Passman" wrote in message
...
RubenD wrote:
Just wondering why did you pick the cardinal and the chromis.

A yellow tang would've been a great colorful option, along with nemo

(clown
fish) and dory (blue tang).

I mean, for the cost of having a SW tank to end up with $2 fish. Might

as
well gotten a FW with some fw angels or some
ciclids. I say that because I went SW for the colors and variety. A

whole
new world.

Just a comment, after all, it's your tank..=)


Ruben



Well I wish it was $2 of fish - lol. The chromis I liked the look of
even though relatively cheap - £20 for the 6 of them - they were on
offer. The banggai's cost £50 for the pair and although predominately
black and white/cream are great looking fish - we call them the punks
because of their finnage. Here's a link to an article on them, which has
a pic:-

http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.u....php?news=1297

A yellow tang and coral beauty are on the list - this will set me back
around £60. I particularly am looking for herbivores/omnivores as the
tank is looking more and more like a planted tank daily - I got a lot of
higher level algae come in on the LR when I set it up. I'm also looking
at a Royal Gamma (not a false) but am still researching other fish for
the tank - I'd like a Mandarin but am waiting for the tank to mature
more (it's only been running since mid-April). I also need to get some
more inverts and corals - I'm looking at getting some Sand sifting star
fish, more snails, hermits etc. The tank has the usual suspects Coral
wise but the more exotic are going to set me back between £30-40 per
frag. UK prices force a slow stocking of the tank. I've ruled out a
"Dory" as I think that the tank is too small and I have no space for a
larger reef tank unless I convert my largest freshwater (6 foot). I also
have to spread my budget across 7 tanks of which this is only one and a
pond project.

I already have a pair of Clowns in a 15 gall Nano reef. I don't want to
add any more clowns to the new tank in case I decide to move the clowns
from the Nano - I keep prevaricating about doing it - yes, the Nano is
hard to keep stable but it has an awful lot of creatures in there that
would need to move as well. I've pretty much moved most of the corals
into the big tank which as I see it were the greatest issue. The tank
will probably be a FOWLR with the Clowns - the exception being the Xenia
that I have by the shedload....

Anyway, part of the fun IMO is the setting up of the tank and going out
and researching the additions.....coming from a freshwater background
I'm also lairy of adding too many fish at once just in case I get an
ammonia/nitrite spike......

I will be off shopping either today or tomorrow for the angels and the
yellow tang

Gill




Gill Passman July 6th 07 04:28 PM

Coral beauty question
 
RubenD wrote:
I guess fish are most expensive where you live.

You can buy a Yellow tang on the LFS for about $29.

Check www.sal****erfish.com and they are not the cheapest out there.

Sometimes you also find decent deals on ebay.

I guess your only option is to move to USA, lol


Ruben



I've often observed that UK and US prices do not reflect the exchange
rate, but in this instance I would say the price of Yellow Tangs are on
a one to one pound to dollar basis as is the case with other things
(including clothes). I just bought a Yellow Tang today for £30 and a
Bi-colour angel for £29 which seems to bear this out.

BTW both fish are settling in well and are already out and about
exploring :-) Couldn't get a coral beauty today - they are going to try
and get one in for me for next week.....

Gill

Wayne Sallee July 6th 07 06:24 PM

Coral beauty question
 
Why didn't you wait to buy both angels at the same time?

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets


Gill Passman wrote on 7/6/2007 11:28 AM:
RubenD wrote:
I guess fish are most expensive where you live.

You can buy a Yellow tang on the LFS for about $29.

Check
www.sal****erfish.com and they are not the cheapest out there.

Sometimes you also find decent deals on ebay.

I guess your only option is to move to USA, lol


Ruben



I've often observed that UK and US prices do not reflect the exchange
rate, but in this instance I would say the price of Yellow Tangs are on
a one to one pound to dollar basis as is the case with other things
(including clothes). I just bought a Yellow Tang today for £30 and a
Bi-colour angel for £29 which seems to bear this out.

BTW both fish are settling in well and are already out and about
exploring :-) Couldn't get a coral beauty today - they are going to try
and get one in for me for next week.....

Gill


Wayne Sallee July 6th 07 06:25 PM

Coral beauty question
 
Unless you put it in a hospital tank first, and add
them both to the reef tank at the same time.

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets


Wayne Sallee wrote on 7/6/2007 1:24 PM:
Why didn't you wait to buy both angels at the same time?

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets


Gill Passman wrote on 7/6/2007 11:28 AM:
RubenD wrote:
I guess fish are most expensive where you live.

You can buy a Yellow tang on the LFS for about $29.

Check
www.sal****erfish.com and they are not the cheapest out there.

Sometimes you also find decent deals on ebay.

I guess your only option is to move to USA, lol


Ruben



I've often observed that UK and US prices do not reflect the exchange
rate, but in this instance I would say the price of Yellow Tangs are
on a one to one pound to dollar basis as is the case with other things
(including clothes). I just bought a Yellow Tang today for £30 and a
Bi-colour angel for £29 which seems to bear this out.

BTW both fish are settling in well and are already out and about
exploring :-) Couldn't get a coral beauty today - they are going to
try and get one in for me for next week.....

Gill


Gill Passman July 6th 07 07:40 PM

Coral beauty question
 
Wayne Sallee wrote:
Why didn't you wait to buy both angels at the same time?

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets



Quite simple really.....because neither place that I shop currently has
any Coral Beauties.....I spotted one last Saturday in the place I went
today and should have snapped it up then but was concentrating on giving
my son's 30g FW a makeover so resisted....it was gone by the time I got
there today. The other place has promised to get me one a couple of
weeks ago but with no success so far.....the place I went today will try
and get me one on Wednesday when they go to the wholesaler, but as it is
the same wholesaler as the other place I don't hold out much hope.

The bi-colour was there and was a very bright and healthy looking fish.
Over here, you buy when you see or it will be gone by the next time you
go shopping.....there are very few marine stockists around here so
basically if you see anything that you are looking for that appears to
be of good quality you don't wait before you buy or you miss out and
face months of waiting again......and that goes for corals and inverts
as well.....I can go multiple times to the LFS and come away empty
handed so if I see something good the plastic comes out....the banggais
weren't my first choice for the second fish to add in, although they
were on my list for the tank, but I saw a great looking pair so had to
get them before anyone else did.

Hope that explains it......I guess it is different in the
States......maybe marine is more readily available.

Gill


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