Pipes freezing?
 

Hi all,

I have a large (about seven thousand gallons) double pond with a
waterfall ledge between them. When it gets REALLY cold that ledge
freezes over and the water rises higher and higher until it goes over
the uppper pond's edge and floods the area. For that and other reasons
I've decided that I just want to pull the pump and let it freeze. BUT,
I don't want to have my pipes freeze and burst. With this size of pond
there is an external pump of course which sits outside the pump, but
below the water level. I have a pipe coming out of the ground for the
bottom drain and I'm afraid that if I turn everything off and pull the
pump that that part of the pipe will freeze and crack. Am I being
paranoid or is this a real fear? If it is a real fear, how can I prevent
that exposed three feet of pipe from freezing and breaking? I'm using
schedule 40 80PSI three inch pipe, if that helps in the decision making.
All my other piping will either be empty or three feet under ground.

Can anyone help me with this? I'm tired of the overflows or the cost
of running a heater to keep it thawed at the falls. Oh, the pond is
four feet deep in the bottom pond and three feed deep in the upper.

thanks,
DLC
--
================================================== ==========================
* Dennis Clark www.techtoystoday.com *
* "Programming and Customizing the OOPic Microcontroller" Mcgraw-Hill 2003 *
================================================== ==========================

Pipes freezing?
 

On 19 Jan 2004 16:07:45 GMT, Dennis Clark wrote:

I have a pipe coming out of the ground for the
bottom drain and I'm afraid that if I turn everything off and pull the
pump that that part of the pipe will freeze and crack.

What's the possibility of cutting a piece of liner to cover the bottom
drain at the bottom of the pond and opening the valve to allow the
pipe to empty from the bottom drain to the end? Sound too risky?

How about heat tapes sold to prevent pipe freezing? Wrapped in
something to insulate the pipe of course.

Regards,

Hal

Pipes freezing?
 

If you can, plug the bottom drain and let it drain, or put in a stand pipe
that comes above the water line and let the water drain from the bottom
drain at the pump. Having valves in the system near the surface can cause
the pipes and valves to crack and break. The other alternative, if the pump
is near water level, is to pump the pond down to below the pump level and
then remove the pump.
--
RichToyBox
http://www.geocities.com/richtoybox/pondintro.html


"Dennis Clark" wrote in message
...
Hi all,

I have a large (about seven thousand gallons) double pond with a
waterfall ledge between them. When it gets REALLY cold that ledge
freezes over and the water rises higher and higher until it goes over
the uppper pond's edge and floods the area. For that and other reasons
I've decided that I just want to pull the pump and let it freeze. BUT,
I don't want to have my pipes freeze and burst. With this size of pond
there is an external pump of course which sits outside the pump, but
below the water level. I have a pipe coming out of the ground for the
bottom drain and I'm afraid that if I turn everything off and pull the
pump that that part of the pipe will freeze and crack. Am I being
paranoid or is this a real fear? If it is a real fear, how can I prevent
that exposed three feet of pipe from freezing and breaking? I'm using
schedule 40 80PSI three inch pipe, if that helps in the decision making.
All my other piping will either be empty or three feet under ground.

Can anyone help me with this? I'm tired of the overflows or the cost
of running a heater to keep it thawed at the falls. Oh, the pond is
four feet deep in the bottom pond and three feed deep in the upper.

thanks,
DLC
--

================================================== ==========================
* Dennis Clark www.techtoystoday.com
*
* "Programming and Customizing the OOPic Microcontroller" Mcgraw-Hill 2003
*

================================================== ==========================

Pipes freezing?
 

RichToyBox wrote:
???
I don't think I described everything well. The bottom drain is still
two feet below the surface, on the surface is where the pump is, so, there
is no way to empty the bottom drain without draining the entire pond, and
even that will leave standing water in the pipe below the surface. It
doesn't seem water smart to drain three thousand gallons of water to get
the level below the pump, and I'm not sure that would help.
I would love to be able to drain the pipe to the bottom drain, but I
don't see how that is possible.

I've already drained the upper pond, by dumping it into the lower (six
thousand gallon) pond, so I don't need to worry about that. The filter
is also drained now, the only pond water left is in the big lower pond,
which has a skimmer (easy to drain) and the bottom drain (as desicribed)
as well as the pump's piping. I would rather not put heater tape on
the pipes unless I really have to, that is a HUGE power cost isn't it?

regards,
DLC

: If you can, plug the bottom drain and let it drain, or put in a stand pipe
: that comes above the water line and let the water drain from the bottom
: drain at the pump. Having valves in the system near the surface can cause
: the pipes and valves to crack and break. The other alternative, if the pump
: is near water level, is to pump the pond down to below the pump level and
: then remove the pump.
: --
: RichToyBox
: http://www.geocities.com/richtoybox/pondintro.html


: "Dennis Clark" wrote in message
: ...
: Hi all,
:
: I have a large (about seven thousand gallons) double pond with a
: waterfall ledge between them. When it gets REALLY cold that ledge
: freezes over and the water rises higher and higher until it goes over
: the uppper pond's edge and floods the area. For that and other reasons
: I've decided that I just want to pull the pump and let it freeze. BUT,
: I don't want to have my pipes freeze and burst. With this size of pond
: there is an external pump of course which sits outside the pump, but
: below the water level. I have a pipe coming out of the ground for the
: bottom drain and I'm afraid that if I turn everything off and pull the
: pump that that part of the pipe will freeze and crack. Am I being
: paranoid or is this a real fear? If it is a real fear, how can I prevent
: that exposed three feet of pipe from freezing and breaking? I'm using
: schedule 40 80PSI three inch pipe, if that helps in the decision making.
: All my other piping will either be empty or three feet under ground.
:
: Can anyone help me with this? I'm tired of the overflows or the cost
: of running a heater to keep it thawed at the falls. Oh, the pond is
: four feet deep in the bottom pond and three feed deep in the upper.
:
: thanks,
: DLC
: --
:
: ================================================== ==========================
: * Dennis Clark www.techtoystoday.com
: *
: * "Programming and Customizing the OOPic Microcontroller" Mcgraw-Hill 2003
: *
:
: ================================================== ==========================



--
================================================== ==========================
* Dennis Clark www.techtoystoday.com *
* "Programming and Customizing the OOPic Microcontroller" Mcgraw-Hill 2003 *
================================================== ==========================

Pipes freezing?
 

On 20 Jan 2004 00:38:44 GMT, Dennis Clark wrote:

I would rather not put heater tape on
the pipes unless I really have to, that is a HUGE power cost isn't it?

That may depend on the type available to you. The last couple I
bought from Lowe's some years ago were 100 watt with a thermostat
built in so they come on at close to freezing temperatures. You
would also need to wrap some type of insulation over the heat tapes to
make them effective. Wrapping the insulation over the pipe would be
enough to prevent freezing here, but our Georgia winters are mild.

Regards,

Hal

Pipes freezing?
 

You wouldn't have to drain the pipe completely, just enough to get the water
level 18 inches or so below ground level. A stand pipe down into the bottom
drain would allow you to pump the piping dry without affecting the water
level in the pond.
--
RichToyBox
http://www.geocities.com/richtoybox/pondintro.html


"Dennis Clark" wrote in message
...
RichToyBox wrote:
???
I don't think I described everything well. The bottom drain is still
two feet below the surface, on the surface is where the pump is, so, there
is no way to empty the bottom drain without draining the entire pond, and
even that will leave standing water in the pipe below the surface. It
doesn't seem water smart to drain three thousand gallons of water to get
the level below the pump, and I'm not sure that would help.
I would love to be able to drain the pipe to the bottom drain, but I
don't see how that is possible.

I've already drained the upper pond, by dumping it into the lower (six
thousand gallon) pond, so I don't need to worry about that. The filter
is also drained now, the only pond water left is in the big lower pond,
which has a skimmer (easy to drain) and the bottom drain (as desicribed)
as well as the pump's piping. I would rather not put heater tape on
the pipes unless I really have to, that is a HUGE power cost isn't it?

regards,
DLC

: If you can, plug the bottom drain and let it drain, or put in a stand
pipe
: that comes above the water line and let the water drain from the bottom
: drain at the pump. Having valves in the system near the surface can
cause
: the pipes and valves to crack and break. The other alternative, if the
pump
: is near water level, is to pump the pond down to below the pump level
and
: then remove the pump.
: --
: RichToyBox
: http://www.geocities.com/richtoybox/pondintro.html


: "Dennis Clark" wrote in message
: ...
: Hi all,
:
: I have a large (about seven thousand gallons) double pond with a
: waterfall ledge between them. When it gets REALLY cold that ledge
: freezes over and the water rises higher and higher until it goes over
: the uppper pond's edge and floods the area. For that and other reasons
: I've decided that I just want to pull the pump and let it freeze. BUT,
: I don't want to have my pipes freeze and burst. With this size of pond
: there is an external pump of course which sits outside the pump, but
: below the water level. I have a pipe coming out of the ground for the
: bottom drain and I'm afraid that if I turn everything off and pull the
: pump that that part of the pipe will freeze and crack. Am I being
: paranoid or is this a real fear? If it is a real fear, how can I
prevent
: that exposed three feet of pipe from freezing and breaking? I'm using
: schedule 40 80PSI three inch pipe, if that helps in the decision
making.
: All my other piping will either be empty or three feet under ground.
:
: Can anyone help me with this? I'm tired of the overflows or the cost
: of running a heater to keep it thawed at the falls. Oh, the pond is
: four feet deep in the bottom pond and three feed deep in the upper.
:
: thanks,
: DLC
: --
:
:
================================================== ==========================
: * Dennis Clark
www.techtoystoday.com
: *
: * "Programming and Customizing the OOPic Microcontroller" Mcgraw-Hill
2003
: *
:
:
================================================== ==========================



--

================================================== ==========================
* Dennis Clark www.techtoystoday.com
*
* "Programming and Customizing the OOPic Microcontroller" Mcgraw-Hill 2003
*

================================================== ==========================

Pipes freezing?
 

On Wed, 21 Jan 2004 01:10:14 GMT, "RichToyBox"
wrote:

You wouldn't have to drain the pipe completely, just enough to get the water
level 18 inches or so below ground level. A stand pipe down into the bottom
drain would allow you to pump the piping dry without affecting the water
level in the pond.

I like your idea about the stand pipe, but I couldn't remember a
thread or fitting I could seal a pipe in mine after I removed the
bottom drain dome. That would be the ideal fix.

Regards,

Hal

Pipes freezing?
 

Hal wrote:

A stand pipe would be a great fix. I don't think that a simple friction
fit into that hold under the dome will be reliable however, even a tiny
leak will eventually fill the pipe. However, I found a simple one. The
key is that I can't let the end of the pipe get cold enough to freeze. I
built an enclosure around the pipes and pump area, insulated it and am
designing a thermostatically controlled circuit to turn a 20 watt light
bulb on when the temp falls below 35 degrees F. The enclosure has both
the bottom drain intake up from the ground and the pump output to the
filter within it. What is under the ground is a "who cares" since that is
protected by being almost three feet under the ground. Where the pipes
are above ground that either has no water in it or comes out within my
enclosure, which is heated. It doesn't take much to heat 8-10 cubic feet
of space, that 20 watt bulb should do, but I'll go to 25 or 40 if need be,
that is CHEAP compared to 1500 watt water heaters and 300 watt pumps.

I think that this will do the job nicely, simply and inexpensively. If
anyone is interested in a similar solution, I'll make my design available
should interest make it useful.

thanks for the ideas guys,
DLC
: On Wed, 21 Jan 2004 01:10:14 GMT, "RichToyBox"
: wrote:

:You wouldn't have to drain the pipe completely, just enough to get the water
:level 18 inches or so below ground level. A stand pipe down into the bottom
:drain would allow you to pump the piping dry without affecting the water
:level in the pond.

: I like your idea about the stand pipe, but I couldn't remember a
: thread or fitting I could seal a pipe in mine after I removed the
: bottom drain dome. That would be the ideal fix.

: Regards,

: Hal

--
================================================== ==========================
* Dennis Clark www.techtoystoday.com *
* "Programming and Customizing the OOPic Microcontroller" Mcgraw-Hill 2003 *
================================================== ==========================

Pipes freezing?
 

On 22 Jan 2004 22:55:42 GMT, Dennis Clark wrote:

I
built an enclosure around the pipes and pump area, insulated it and am
designing a thermostatically controlled circuit to turn a 20 watt light
bulb on when the temp falls below 35 degrees F.

Sounds like a good fix to me!

Regards,

Hal