Fishkeeping - live food for africans?

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live food for africans?

I know that Africans of Lake Malawi should eat a diet of predominantly alga or
vegetable based food to avoid bloat. My question is whether anyone has
suggestions or advice on feeding blood worms and other live foods to them as a
supplement/conditioning food? Any advice? I just bought some frozen blood
worms. My frontosas in the other tank love them. Are they good for Mbuna?

live food for africans?

Thanks Steve. I hear ya on the predator thing. My comprecisseps are in constant
lunge for the smaller fish in the Malawi tank. It's scary to watch their
stealth and speed. Anyway is there a type of live food you would suggest as a
treat or conditioning food instead of blood worms? Any tricks to encourage
breeding?

Zim

live food for africans?

Racf wrote:

I rather doubt that they feed ONLY on algae. I imagine they may feed
mostly on algae due to lack of anything else..... Oscars will eat
algae, if thats all there is to eat... I have read many times over the
years that high protein diets will kill Mbunas, but I never really
believed it. I guess its possible...I just never bought in to it. Fish
will eat about anything they can get...in the wild or in the tank....In
the wild specialization would tend to favor certain species in certain
situations....If all there was to eat was buffalo chips, I imagine
anyone that liked them woud do quite well....while the rest of us would
end up eating each other...

You obviously aren't a biologist otherwise you'd know how preposterous the
claim that they eat algae because of a "lack of anything else" is. The
algae eating cichlids of the rift lakes are morphologically and
physiologically adapted for the primary ingestion of algae.

The dentition of the upper and lower jaws has adapted to a form more
suitable for scraping algae off rocks than catching prey, usually bi- or
tri-cuspid teeth. The pharyngeal jaw apparatus is similarly evolved for
the processing of algae matter (as opposed to fish or snails). If you can
find it, "The Cichlid Fishes of the Great Lakes of Africa" by Fryer and
Iles is an old, but good reference on the morphology of rift lake
cichlids. It has illustrations that will show the differences in jaw
structures as well as a whole chapter explaining how the various feeding
mechanisms have evolved specialized dentition for that feeding mechanism.
That chapter also mentions how some algae eaters take specialized care to
exclude even accidently eating invertebrates with its algae.

The mbuna also have an intestinal tract adapted to digest primarily
vegetable matter. This means the tract is long. The occasional
invertebrate inadvertantly caught with the algae will not upset the
intestinal tract to a great deal, but a primarily meat diet will. Just
because the fish will eat it when presented with the food doesn't mean
they can digest it. They are not carnivores nor omnivores. They are
herbavores. You must feed them a diet appropriate to their physiology and
morphology if you expect them to live a long and healthy life.

live food for africans?

"Cichlidiot" wrote in message
...
Racf wrote:

I rather doubt that they feed ONLY on algae. I imagine they may
feed
mostly on algae due to lack of anything else..... Oscars will eat
algae, if thats all there is to eat... I have read many times over
the
years that high protein diets will kill Mbunas, but I never really
believed it. I guess its possible...I just never bought in to it.
Fish
will eat about anything they can get...in the wild or in the
tank....In
the wild specialization would tend to favor certain species in
certain
situations....If all there was to eat was buffalo chips, I imagine
anyone that liked them woud do quite well....while the rest of us
would
end up eating each other...

You obviously aren't a biologist otherwise you'd know how preposterous
the
claim that they eat algae because of a "lack of anything else" is. The
algae eating cichlids of the rift lakes are morphologically and
physiologically adapted for the primary ingestion of algae.

The dentition of the upper and lower jaws has adapted to a form more
suitable for scraping algae off rocks than catching prey, usually bi-
or
tri-cuspid teeth. The pharyngeal jaw apparatus is similarly evolved
for
the processing of algae matter (as opposed to fish or snails). If you
can
find it, "The Cichlid Fishes of the Great Lakes of Africa" by Fryer
and
Iles is an old, but good reference on the morphology of rift lake
cichlids. It has illustrations that will show the differences in jaw
structures as well as a whole chapter explaining how the various
feeding
mechanisms have evolved specialized dentition for that feeding
mechanism.
That chapter also mentions how some algae eaters take specialized care
to
exclude even accidently eating invertebrates with its algae.

The mbuna also have an intestinal tract adapted to digest primarily
vegetable matter. This means the tract is long. The occasional
invertebrate inadvertantly caught with the algae will not upset the
intestinal tract to a great deal, but a primarily meat diet will. Just
because the fish will eat it when presented with the food doesn't mean
they can digest it. They are not carnivores nor omnivores. They are
herbavores. You must feed them a diet appropriate to their physiology
and
morphology if you expect them to live a long and healthy life.

I hear what your saying. I still must stick with what I said,
though.....In an algae only food to eat scenario, they would probably
out compete the other fish....I imagine that's what drove their special
qualities.....but they will eat what they can get regardless....As do
most critters...some foods are preferred over others.... I do not
believe its a fact that a Mbuna cannot digest anything but algae....I am
not even aware of another herbivore that is so limited, but I am aware
of many carnivores that would do poorly eating grass and brush.
Breaking down fats is something even us humans have a bit of trouble
with....but proteins and carbs.....I do not think so.

live food for africans?

"Cichlidiot" wrote in message
...
Racf wrote:

I hear what your saying. I still must stick with what I said,
though.....In an algae only food to eat scenario, they would
probably
out compete the other fish....I imagine that's what drove their
special
qualities.....but they will eat what they can get regardless....As
do
most critters...some foods are preferred over others.... I do not
believe its a fact that a Mbuna cannot digest anything but
algae....I am
not even aware of another herbivore that is so limited, but I am
aware
of many carnivores that would do poorly eating grass and brush.
Breaking down fats is something even us humans have a bit of trouble
with....but proteins and carbs.....I do not think so.

And where is your biology degree? (And before you ask the same of me,
mine
is on the wall behind me right now). You obviously have never taken a
physiology or morphology course. Otherwise you'd know about things
like
digestive enzymes and intestinal tracts that affect what a creature is
able to eat. Here's a very simple example for you: lactose intolerance
in
humans. This is primarily due to the lack of the digestive enzyme
lactase
(although in some it is actually a true allergy to lactose or a
reaction
to other components in cow-derived dairy products). This lack of
lactase
causes intestinal discomfort, gas and bloating because the lactose
cannot
be digested.

If a creature does not have the digestive enzymes to break down a
complex
structure (which proteins are BTW) into its more simple components
(such
as simple sugars or amino acids), then it will have issues eating
something which contains a high quantity of that complex structure.
Everything I've read about mbuna suggests that they do not have the
capacity (ie the digestive enzymes and so on) to live on a diet
consisting
of mostly carnivorous foods without some serious digestive
side-effects,
such as bloat. The occasional intake may be tolerated, but not a
constant
diet of such food.

Oh, and for not believing other herbivores are so limited, there are
other fish with similar algae eating habits. Several scientific
studies
are underway with just the primary goal of gaining even more insight
into
the physiology of the digestive tracts of fish that are herbivores.
For
example, read this faculty page for a professor at Fullerton:

http://stromboli.fullerton.edu/mhorn.html

It is of course brief, but shows that there are other fish that are
similarly algae eating herbivores. In the case of that professor, his
research focuses on several marine herbivores. That is also just one
example that popped up on a Google search for research in this field.

Now, in the future, if you wish to make such claims, please do not
base it
on "personal belief". Provide some sound scientific research to back
it
up. Right now, most of the scientific knowledge indicate that algae
eating mbuna should be fed an herbivorous diet. Perhaps you have done
an
experiment or two comparing the effects of a carnivorous diet vs a
herbivorous diet on these mbuna fishes that you'd care to share?

It started as a simple question about feeding larvae/worms to a Mbuna.
I see nothing wrong with a varied diet....and really that's what its all
about. I believe this is part of their natural diet, anyway....

Nobody is suggesting we feed cheese, milk, hamburger, chicken, and ham
to them. I am not buying your cannot digest assertions in this
case....and bloat issues occur naturally in just about any critter with
the right circumstances, regardless of the food type...

I could be wrong, but just do not think so in this case. Besides, its
well known that herbivores rarely get all their required nutrients from
merely plants...Even Chimps eat monkeys once in a while...