NetMax wrote:
"Elaine T" wrote in message
t...

NetMax wrote:

snip

I think the bottom line with many of us, is that we like to tinker.
We walk by the tank, and make a note to do something, or just do it
(move a rock, clean some algae, feed the fish, replant something, pull
some dead leaves out, watch some new behaviour, check how the fry are
doing etc etc). The suggested scenario took away your ability to
tinker.

Let me give an analogy. What you suggest is rather like putting a few
dogs into a big, grassy field with some cameras. (Assume their needs
for shelter and running room are met.) You would feed and water them
daily and clean up as necessary, but that would be the extent of the
interaction. On your living room wall would be a projection of the
dogs so you can see them play, sleep and hang out. The dogs would be
perfectly fine and your chores would be lighter, but the setup is not
the same as having a pet dog at your feet.

I think most of us think of our fish as pets. You've mentioned feeding
your fish with automatic feeders so you see more of the natural
behavior. In contrast, I enjoy watching my angel fish doing his little
"wiggle dance" at the front of the tank when I come into the room. All
he's after is a handout, but the interaction is still fun. Think of
how popular Oscars are because of their pet-like qualities!


I absolutely totally agree mostly :~). There are interactive set-ups and
there are non-interactive set-ups. Fish fall into the category of 'pets'
for a variety of reasons, and some fall conveniently into 'hobby'.
Another subset is 'decoration', to have layers of colors and activity. I
wouldn't put 'pet' fish into a remote tank, as this would make no sense,
they are interactive. Some fish as 'hobby' I would, and many new
hobbyists would see the 'decoration' aspect first.

For example, I once stocked a planted 130g tank with about 9 types of
tetras (about 15 each iirc). I could watch this tank for hours (some
days I did, as it was 10 feet from my counter at the pet shop). Once
they realized there were no predators in the tank, they each assumed
either an inter-species 'gameplay' or a focused intent on doing something
else (what - I could only guess). They broke into groups 6-12, barrelled
through other less-organised groups, then broke into smaller formations,
cheat-shoaled with other species (teenagers!), established alpha status
and minor pecking order (top 2 or 3) and danced around each other
(inter-species and not). The point is that it was really fun to watch.
Then a customer would walk over, and once they were about 5-6 feet from
the tank, all the animation would come to a stop, and the fish would go
into people-mode; hide, freeze, beg for food or slowly drift into the
background, and the customer would coo "what a pretty tank", oblivious to
the fact that they were only seeing a fraction of the potential
entertainment value. This is what many hobbyists see, their fish's
people-mode (which with some fish is frankly, predictable, dull &
repetitive, and Elaine knows that I'm taking a devil's advocate position
to this argument, so please don't anyone else flame me). Some of the
best enjoyment comes from undetected observation, particularly 'hobby'
fish, imho.

This is why I can't *totally* agree with you. There are too many reasons
to be in the hobby, like the fellow who could tell me the sci.name of
every plant in his tanks, but when asked what kind of fish he had, he
replied "some blue ones and some red ones" ;~). A remote tank might fill
a market niche if only to address some of the existing constraints
associated with larger tanks.

... gotta go now, I need to look up the word 'tripe' ;~)

To save you the effort it is cows stomach...in the past fed to dogs and
people of restricted means...it is a particularly nasy product, white
with lots of nodules, but high in nutritional value - I remember people
feeding it to their pets (fortunately not their kids although it did
happen and I'm sure that my parents will remember eating it from times
of rationing in the 2WW) - nowadays when hopefully the majority have
better nutrition so it means "rubbish" or "waste"...

My joy in this hobby as you quite rightly mention, does happen with some
people, is the pleasure in watching my fish and their interactions with
me and with themselves....a pretty tank, ornamental feature as a goal is
also very, very common...I see them as my pets, my tanks are very
transient as I try to achieve the perfect environment...never achievable
hence the constant fiddling and changes...but I would hazard a guess
that most people who bother enough to subscribe to newsgroups/forums do
the same...for all of us doing this there are thousands of people out
there who either know what to do or just think of tanks of fish as
something that looks great in their living room (and don't get me wrong
if the fish are healthy and well cared for there is nothing wrong with
this)...but if they die the attitude is "buy more" - not a difficult
concept in our consumer society....soapbox warning

Until fish are seen as more than decorations we will never get the
quality of service and livestock that we deserve. Futhermore, our pets,
the fish, will suffer from neglect and harm not only from their ultimate
owners but the retailers and wholesalers

Your idea is great and fantastic if it provides a virtual reality tank
for those that just want the concept and decorative value of
fish...maybe this is the market (and I do know you chastised me for
considering you were selling - a slight net problem - I didn't mean
commercially I meant the concept/idea). And if it moves us away from
people who see fish as mere designer objects with no care for their well
being, then I'm sorry, so much the better.

Now, maybe the "would be fish owners who can't be arsed to do the work"
would really be better off with their virtual tanks....can see a market
for this just as you describe...but someone still has to be in there
doing the work....if I'm doing the work I want to see the real thing not
something fed to me on a screen...

Climbing off the box and I know that you know it isn't personal and just
a "Gill rant" g

Gill