bo0ger1 wrote:
Ok, let me clarify. With adequate skimming there is no need to do a
water change.

What is adequate skimming? Just a protein skimmer is all you need...no
live rock


Using a skimmer that produces a consistently good foam. And of course live
rock. Should I also state you need water?


...a skimmer takes out all nitrates?


A skimmer takes out NO nitrates. I am not sure you are ready for where this
would take us in the discussion.

But then what does a skimmer take out? Why so necessary?



I have fish an anenome (doing fine) and live rock.

How do you know it's fine....did it tell you? Are you an LSD user?


He is growing and 'looks' healthy. And eats when I feed him.

Is he going to live as long as anemone's with water changes?



I have read marine books that state that water changes are necessary even
for FOWLR tanks. They are wrong.


Necessary, no, but some form of nitrate export is needed.


Yes it's called denitrification. It doesn't require water changes nor does
it require a skimmer. (You don't want to go there, you're not ready)

You're right, I don't want to go there. It's turning nitrates into
Nitrogen with bacteria, done in live rock and deep sand beds. Whatever
fine.



You are too funny! Laws set forth in books? If I write a book (hey I
even have a Ph.D.) on marine aquariums, does that make what I state laws?


I was speaking of laws, like don't kill people etc. Not referring to
aquarium laws. Wow they give out Ph.D.'s like candy on Halloween huh?


This is called an ad hominem attack. You're getting good at these!


Ya, I am good at them. Must be that I have 0 respect for people that
get Ph.D.'s in anything other than medicine. I find it breeds snooty
people that think they're smart because they were able to spend 10's of
thousands of their parents money while avoiding growing the hell up.


Great! You want to perform water changes because that makes you happy.
Why do you feel the need to put down those that have realized it isn't
necessary?


How, because for 2 years you've been able to keep things alive that are
supposed to live for 10-20 years. Impressive.


Not putting you down because of your not changing water, putting you down
because you blindly state, don't change your water. Which to some may
mean put salt water in a box and put fish in, no need for anything other
than a skimmer, make sure it's an adequate one. Sure throw a coral in
there. Anemone. Sure...now let them stew in their own excrement.


You are putting words in my mouth. I never stated "put salt water in a box
and put fish in, no need for anything other than a skimmer"

Your previous post said all you needed was a skimmer. You mentioned
nothing about live rock. Live rock is not necessary to keep fish
alive...water is.

You must claim that all you need to do is put salt water in a box and put
fish in, no need for anything other than performing water changes.

I stated with adequate skimming and live rock no need to do water changes.

no you never mentioned live rock before now.


Nope you said "But when marine biologists highly touted as the best in a
particular field write books. "
Are all marine biologists that write books highly touted? How do you
know the difference?

I know the difference because they sell many books, are reviewed highly
and people follow their advice with great success.


You are missing my point. People also DO NOT follow their advice and have
great success. What is your point?

Just you and the other guy, who apparently are either too poor or too
afraid to try coral raising. You should be making pretty good scratch
though Doctor.



You, Dr. are spewing things as fact that you have no concept of. Have you
done a study of life expectancy of fish who live without water changes vs.
those that get changed?


Have you? If you haven't than you can not claim they require it. My fish
and anenome are doing fine (close to two years with no water change).


The books I've read indicate experiments where folks didn't change water
and things went worse. So no, I haven't but authors of books have.

Or do you just assume because your fish are alive that they are healthy.


No. I assume they are healthy because they are alive AND look healthy AND
are disease free. They also eat when I feed them (one indication of heath
for an animal).


You've drawn blood and tested for disease?


Many people have NOT followed their advice and ALSO have had successful
marine aquariums so what's your point?

Reef aquariums? None of you fools have stated to have coral.


Why the need to call me a fool? This is another ad hominem attack. You are
an expert at this.

I'm an expert at a lot of stuff. But I don't claim to be an expert at
things I have no formal education or experience in.


You claim to have a healthy anemone. But for whatever reason, you won't
share pictures, or show your setup, you blindly say don't change your
water.


I don't blindly say it, I just say it.'

Why should you be believed then


Again, what is a picture going to tell you? You seem to have a real blind
spot here.

A picture will indicate that you aren't lying to prove a point, for one.
It would also indicate that contrary to popular belief that water
changes make no difference in water color or clarity. It would show how
much live rock you have. It would show the bucket sitting by your
aquarium that you secretly use to actually change your water.


Well Dr. that makes you an irresponsible jerk.


Ad hominem attack.
Nope, just a regular attack that time. I did attack you, but after
answering your argument.




I said it's cool not to change your water? Oh wait, no I didn't. I am
saying its is NOT necessary.

Meaning it's ok...which is the way I was using cool. Point me to 1 single
publication that says "It's not necessary to change your water".


Haven't seen one. I'm not saying they don't exist. I am speaking from
experience. I already told you that the books I have read recommend water
changes.

So you, admittedly, not having any education in marine biology, nor any
real theory to support your claim should probably go write a book and
make trillions....then maybe you could afford a camera.



AND again DO NOT BELIEVE EVERYTHING YOU READ.

So how do I determine whether to believe you. The books I read had
pictures. You don't.


You don't have to believe me Pat. And I don't care if you do.

But I so desperately want to. I just am not a man of faith, and your
story is fishier than the one about Jesus and pals.



Probably for the same reason you do it.

Which is, to follow the herd. That makes a lot of sense for an
organization that has nowhere near the amount of money they need any
damned way.


Yep.

Well dammit, I'm going to stop giving them money, wasteful *******s.



I know nothing about maintaining aquariums at a zoo and never claimed I
did. We are talking about home scale marine aquariums.

Why is that different than a zoo, you'd think there'd be less need to
change the water there, more volume, more stable...etc.


They have MORE water volume, therefore they have MORE water volume to skim.
They might also be over stocking their aquariums. More fish/aquarium = more
interest from visitors = more money. Not sure people would enjoy a poorly
stocked aquarium at a zoo.

So there is another variable, you have to stock to a certain
limit....what is that limit.


You are trying to compare apples and oranges by bringing up zoo aquariums.

No, granny smith and braeburn's maybe.


Where did you get your knowledge on home aquariums. Personal research,
you just got lazy and stopped doing water changes so you now decided for
the world that it's not necessary.


Yeah, that's it. I'm lazy. I'm also smart enough to know that water
changes are NOT necessary.

Smarts has nothing to do with it. Knowledge is not a measure of
intelligence. But seriously, where did you get your knowledge?


I'm a troll because I'm a jerk? Why don't you just call me Hitler and
get it over with.

Ok, Hitler, hail.


Am I wrong because I'm a jerk?

You're wrong because, apart from your word, you provide no evidence that
your theory holds water(notice the cute pun, damn I'm witty).


You're correct here.

So the people opposing your viewpoint provide evidence...and you think
people should just believe you based on the fact that what? you're
cute? You're a Dr.? If you don't want to give any basis for your
claim, then do not make your claim. It's an unpopular viewpoint and you
should be prepared to defend it with something other than I'm smart and
it works.



Additionally you take your theory and extend it to animals that you have
no experience keeping. So what if you are wrong, what if corals need
water changes. Is it possible? Please prove to me that they don't.


Prove to me that they do.

K, do me a favor, go to the LFS and buy an Agopora coral. Put it in
your tank, draw a good picture of it, I know you don't have a camera.
Then wait 1 year, draw a picture of it again, email me the pictures.



If your reply is, I never mentioned corals. Then you should get out of
the REEFs newsgroup and post in the fish only one


Are you an LSD user?

Not currently. Why, got some?


No, because you sound like you are hallucinating.
ad hominem attack...tsk tsk Dr.



On what issue do I hollow the herd? Because I sleep at night? or eat
food? This is not following the herd Pat.

Sure it is. Or you ever take a quick peek at a TV show because it's
pretty popular. Ever read a movie review to see what people are saying
about them. Ever read a customer review before buying something online.
Ever not stolen stuff from a store because the herd decided you shouldn't.


Hey, if you want to do water changes because "everyone else" is doing them.
Have at it.

That's not why I do them. I do them to replenish nutrients and remove
waste.



Read the label on the trace elements bottle you purchase.

Which of the millions of available bottles do I purchase


Follow the herd. See what they use. You are good at this.

Which do you use? The herd does water changes to avoid these.


I don't have coral. Never claimed to.

What do you put in for your anemone?



Your anemone doesn't require trace elements? I thought they needed
iodine and such to thrive. Maybe that's another breakthrough for you.
??


I NEVER said water changes are difficult. Read this VERY slowly : My
point is water changes are NOT NECESSARY.

You said adding supplements is easier, I don't think it is. Too
complicated to figure out what needs what.


Ok, so you are saying you're stupid. Than don't do it. Leave the
supplement adding for the smart people who don't do water changes.
What suppliments do you use? I could ask the LFS, but they're in it for
the blood money, Wayne could tell me, but apparently he's on LSD too.
Who do I believe.



You did however say that it's expensive to change water. And you say not
necessary as long as you have an adequate skimmer. Nothing else.


And live rock.
Live rock is expensive. And not necessary to keep fish. I could buy
many years worth of salt for what I spent on liverock. Therefore making
nitrate export by hand rather than thru live rock. Changing water is
not expensive.