bo0ger1 wrote:
A skimmer takes out NO nitrates. I am not sure you are ready for where
this
would take us in the discussion.

But then what does a skimmer take out? Why so necessary?


Skimmers remove proteins. In particular proteins and other molecules that
have a hydrophilic and hydrophobic portion (surfactants).


He is growing and 'looks' healthy. And eats when I feed him.

Is he going to live as long as anemone's with water changes?


So far so good. I will keep you posted. How long do yours live?


Yes it's called denitrification. It doesn't require water changes nor
does it require a skimmer. (You don't want to go there, you're not
ready)

You're right, I don't want to go there. It's turning nitrates into
Nitrogen with bacteria, done in live rock and deep sand beds. Whatever
fine.


This is called an ad hominem attack. You're getting good at these!


Ya, I am good at them. Must be that I have 0 respect for people that get
Ph.D.'s in anything other than medicine.


Are you claiming to know what my Ph.D. is in?

I'd bet money that it's chemestry, and I'd bet more money that you are
not a MD.




I find it breeds snooty people that think they're smart because they were
able to spend 10's of thousands of their parents money while avoiding
growing the hell up.


Dude you are wrong on so many levels it's funny. Ph.D.'s (including mine)
are free! All you have to do is get accepted into the program (good luck to
you!) and work as a TA. They provide you with a stipend and pay your
tuition.

When I want to go to a worthless institution that does nothing but breed
snooty democrats, I'll let you know, and then I'll get accepted in any
program I wish. I assume then that your bachelor and master levels of
education were also gratis? So when the rest of the general public is
actually making a living and you're still pretending to get smart,
you're not living off mommy and daddy then?



Great! You want to perform water changes because that makes you happy.
Why do you feel the need to put down those that have realized it isn't
necessary?


How, because for 2 years you've been able to keep things alive that are
supposed to live for 10-20 years. Impressive.


I will keep you posted.


You are putting words in my mouth. I never stated "put salt water in a
box and put fish in, no need for anything other than a skimmer"

Your previous post said all you needed was a skimmer. You mentioned
nothing about live rock. Live rock is not necessary to keep fish
alive...water is.


My live rock is necessary. It is helps with denitrification.

No, you could do water changes instead.



I stated with adequate skimming and live rock no need to do water
changes.


no you never mentioned live rock before now.


Ok. Lets clear it up now. I left it out because I thought it was
understood that people with marine aquariums usually have live rock. My
mistake.

No people with the widely recognized FO tanks, have no live rock.




You are missing my point. People also DO NOT follow their advice and
have great success. What is your point?

Just you and the other guy, who apparently are either too poor or too
afraid to try coral raising.

Are you sure it is just us two?

Just you 2 of the hundreds that are willing to post on the newsgroup
over the past 2 years I've looked.



You should be making pretty good scratch though Doctor.


How is this relevant?

you should try corals


Have you? If you haven't than you can not claim they require it. My
fish and anenome are doing fine (close to two years with no water
change).

Sure I can...if I go too long without a water change my corals don't
open as much, when I change the water, they do.



The books I've read indicate experiments where folks didn't change water
and things went worse. So no, I haven't but authors of books have.


References?

I guess you could say for the past two years I have been doing an experiment
in my tank then. So far no problems! Many others also have success with
no water changes. Not just me.



No. I assume they are healthy because they are alive AND look healthy
AND are disease free. They also eat when I feed them (one indication of
heath for an animal).


You've drawn blood and tested for disease?


Have you on yours? I am referring to visible signs of disease.


Why the need to call me a fool? This is another ad hominem attack. You
are an expert at this.

I'm an expert at a lot of stuff. But I don't claim to be an expert at
things I have no formal education or experience in.


Nor do I. I never said I was an expert. This is a red herring.


I don't blindly say it, I just say it.'

Why should you be believed then


??


Again, what is a picture going to tell you? You seem to have a real
blind spot here.


A picture will indicate that you aren't lying to prove a point, for one.
It would also indicate that contrary to popular belief that water changes
make no difference in water color or clarity. It would show how much live
rock you have. It would show the bucket sitting by your aquarium that you
secretly use to actually change your water.


A picture that you take would prove some of that, would it not?

You are too funny.



Haven't seen one. I'm not saying they don't exist. I am speaking from
experience. I already told you that the books I have read recommend
water changes.

So you, admittedly, not having any education in marine biology, nor any
real theory to support your claim should probably go write a book and make
trillions....then maybe you could afford a camera.


Ok.


They have MORE water volume, therefore they have MORE water volume to
skim. They might also be over stocking their aquariums. More
fish/aquarium = more interest from visitors = more money. Not sure
people would enjoy a poorly stocked aquarium at a zoo.

So there is another variable, you have to stock to a certain limit....what
is that limit.


You have to watch your nitrate levels. If too high than you are over
stocked OR you have inadequate live rock/live sand for denitrification.


You are trying to compare apples and oranges by bringing up zoo
aquariums.


No, granny smith and braeburn's maybe.


??


Yeah, that's it. I'm lazy. I'm also smart enough to know that water
changes are NOT necessary.

Smarts has nothing to do with it. Knowledge is not a measure of
intelligence. But seriously, where did you get your knowledge?


Experience.

2 years? I've done the hobby for 2 years now too, I consider myself a
newb...wow, how different we are, must be that false cofidence you get
in college, Dr.



You're correct here.

So the people opposing your viewpoint provide evidence...and you think
people should just believe you based on the fact that what?


I never said people have to believe me.

You sure seem to want them to. When you banter back and forth about it.



you're cute? You're a Dr.? If you don't want to give any basis for your
claim, then do not make your claim. It's an unpopular viewpoint and you
should be prepared to defend it with something other than I'm smart and it
works.


Why do I have to defend it? Why are you so defensive?'

I think that if you post in a forum where people seek advice, you should
be able to provide something other than a statement "Don't change water"
When the rest of the world thinks you are giving bad advice. It's the
responsible thing to do. If you are disputing what is by your own
admission printed in every book you've seen....and we've all seen. Then
you should probably back it up, or stop giving your worthless advice.

I for instance think that I could lead the rest of my life almost no
differently if I didn't brush my teeth. So because the rest of the
world does it, I'm going to rebel and not brush. if I rinse with
rubbing alcohol, I should be able to kill much of the bacteria. Hell of
an idea.



Prove to me that they do.

K, do me a favor, go to the LFS and buy an Agopora coral. Put it in your
tank, draw a good picture of it, I know you don't have a camera. Then wait
1 year, draw a picture of it again, email me the pictures.


??

You won't do that for me? I want to prove that corals need water
changes. My corals close up more frequently if I miss a change. So
that's my evidence. But again that's just my word.



Hey, if you want to do water changes because "everyone else" is doing
them. Have at it.

That's not why I do them. I do them to replenish nutrients and remove
waste.


Skimmers remove waste, the rest is removed via the denitrification process.
What waste are you having problems removing if you don't do water changes?


Follow the herd. See what they use. You are good at this.

Which do you use? The herd does water changes to avoid these.


Kent marine.


Your anemone doesn't require trace elements? I thought they needed iodine
and such to thrive. Maybe that's another breakthrough for you.


I use Kent marine essential elements.



Ok, so you are saying you're stupid. Than don't do it. Leave the
supplement adding for the smart people who don't do water changes.

What suppliments do you use? I could ask the LFS, but they're in it for
the blood money, Wayne could tell me, but apparently he's on LSD too. Who
do I believe.


You must believe the Herd. They can't possible be wrong.


And live rock.

Live rock is expensive. And not necessary to keep fish. I could buy many
years worth of salt for what I spent on liverock. Therefore making
nitrate export by hand rather than thru live rock. Changing water is not
expensive.


You don't have live rock?

Sure I do, but do I have enough?